• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Rhianna: "TR Had Different, Darker Ending","I Wasn't a Fan of ROTTR Father Storyline"

NeoRaider

Member
In new Eurogamer interview, done before it was announced that she is leaving TR franchise Rhianna is talking about both TR reboot and ROTTR. Revealing some new and very interesting info for the first time ever.


Talking about father storyline of ROTTR:
By this point, Lara's character had evolved so she was less reactive, as she had been throughout the reboot, and more proactive. Comics penned by Pratchett had filled in the gap between the events of the two games, but you didn't need to have read them to see Lara had taken a significant step along the path to becoming the Tomb Raider she was destined to be.

Rise of the Tomb Raider is set one year after the events of Tomb Raider. Lara, suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder from having to kill a whole bunch of cultists on an island, turns to her late father's research into the lost city of Kitezh and the promise of immortality. The game can be seen as Lara coming to terms with her father's death, and unravelling the truth behind it.

Rhianna Pratchett, at least at first, was not a fan.

"I've been open about the fact I wasn't that into the father storyline to start with," she says, "but eventually found peace with it, and I think we did some good things with it.

"When you're talking about teams of hundreds of people, you are really a cog in the machine. The narrative team is important, but so are all the other teams as well, and they're all fighting for space and agency and budget and time and everything else."

Pratchett was nervous about how Rise of the Tomb Raider would be received. "With the first game we had the element of surprise," she says.

"With the second game, we didn't have that element of surprise. People had already been on one adventure with Lara. We weren't sure how well the evolution of her character would come across, how people would feel about it. How would they respond to a tougher Lara? The Lara who is more vulnerable and human in the first game, she's moved on from that.

"But we found players had moved on with her. They had been through the adventures. They knew what she'd been through. They'd walked through the fire with her. So they felt toughened by what they had been through in the past with her. That aligned player and player character rather nicely."


Talking about first kill in reboot and different ending. Also about struggle to balance gameplay with the story in games, and working with big teams in general:
When I ask Pratchett what she would change about the Tomb Raider games she worked on, she's quick to point to a couple of parts of the 2013 reboot: Lara's first kill, and the ending of the game.

"I would have liked for us to have found a more elegant solution for the first kill and what happened after it," Pratchett says.

"It would have been good if we had taken more time to think about how the character would come across in that situation. Maybe you could have had her throw away the gun off a cliff. It would feel in-line with how the character is feeling. You would be maybe a bit frustrated as a player, but you'd also feel, okay, well that feels in-line with what the character's going through and it would seem natural for her to do that.

"And then she would have to have a bit more gameplay where she's stealthing. She has the bow at that point, so maybe she just has to keep using the bow for a bit, and eventually she's in a situation where she's going to have to pick up a gun again. That's the moment she realises that's what she's going to have to do to get through it. I would have liked to have stretched out those realisations rather them all coming boom boom boom in the same scene. That's something I would have liked to have done."

And then there's the ending of the first game. Originally, it had a darker, more downbeat ending that would hammer home the theme of sacrifice versus loss. But player feedback suggested the game had too many character deaths already, so by the time the player got around to the end, it all felt a little depressing.

"Originally, when I'd written the first draft of the script, there wasn't so much death in it," Pratchett explains. "And then, gradually the deaths crept in, and it changed the feel of the narrative. It made more sense the players were feeling that way after they'd gone through various other deaths."

Because of the feedback from playtesters, the ending had to be changed at "almost the eleventh hour". "There had been a lot of death up to that point. Part of that was the gameplay changes, where I had to keep going back and killing off characters," Pratchett says.

"It would have been good if we'd identified that problem earlier, and we probably could have finessed things a bit more. It wasn't too late. We managed to fix it. But it didn't fully deliver on some of the narrative themes we wanted to. We folded them back into the second game."

Speaking to Pratchett, I get the impression she's glad she got the chance to right some of the narrative wrongs of Tomb Raider with Rise. And from a production point of view, she, along with the rest of the narrative team, tried their best to identify story issues as early as possible, avoiding troublesome eleventh hour changes.

But, by doing so, new problems presented themselves.

"That did mean as writers and narrative designers that we were in constant headwinds of feedback all the time," Pratchett says, "from the team, Microsoft, Square Enix, external contractors, internal playtesters, external playtesters. It was very very full-on.

"That was very hard to deal with, because you're constantly reiterating all the time, and obviously different people have different tastes and different levels of power, and you've got to react to everything, and you're trying to keep everyone happy and also deliver on your creative vision. It's what I imagine working on a big budget studio picture is like. It's a bit like writing a script with the entire audience behind you, watching you and giving comments.

"But it did help us identify potential problems, like problems with the ending or those moments where narrative and gameplay really clash a lot earlier on, so that meant we could finesse those problems more and smooth out the edges."

One of the issues I had with the Tomb Raider reboot was I felt it struggled to marry the fact Lara - via the player - breezily murders hundreds of people, with the suggestion she's simply an adventurous student who up until the events of the game had never killed anyone before. It's a different problem to the Nathan Drake mass murderer issue that has dogged the Uncharted series, but it's along the same lines.

Pratchett calls this the "biggest challenge" she faced writing Lara Croft. "Uncharted has made Drake more lighthearted about it," she says. "With Lara, we wanted to make her care a little bit and be a bit more human in her reactions, but ultimately realise this is what she's got to do to survive and just get on with it."

Rise, as you'd expect, dealt with this issue more smoothly because the experience of the first game meant her ability to kill was more believable.

"By the time Rise comes along, she's ready to meet fire with fire," Pratchett says. "She knows what she's doing, and she almost enters a mode to deal with it. This isn't her first rodeo."

Some, however, struggled to get on with this new, modern Lara in either game. Critics say Pratchett and Crystal Dynamics veered too far from the Lara of old, the Lara envisioned by Core Design's enigmatic Toby Gard, into "grim-dark" territory.

"There is a tonal difference," Pratchett admits. "Crystal is very keen not to do the quippy one-liner Lara that characterised classic Lara. There's a part of me that misses that. I know there are players who miss that. From a writer's point of view, it's fun to write that kind of character.

"But quippyness and the devil-may-care attitude suggests confidence and resilience Lara doesn't have yet, so it didn't feel in-line with her character to be that confident and that quippy. Crystal just didn't want the same tone to the character. That wasn't my decision, but I had to write to their vision, and I completely understand that. It's a darker game."

Still, Pratchett insists the two Laras - old-school Lara and modern day Lara - have much in common. Similarities are there, but they're easy to miss, she says, because the new Lara isn't so big on jokes.

"The bravery, the resourcefulness, the tenacity, everything you associate with classic Lara, is all there in new Lara," Pratchett says, "it's just rewound to the point where it's bubbling to the surface and being tested.

"She doesn't act as the wealthy playgirl, jet-setting around the world, and then having all the guns and gadgets to deal with things. She's different in that regard. She's more interested in archaeology for the secrets and mysteries it involves, whereas the previous Lara was in it for the sport.

"I know gritty, darker games have become very popular in the last five or so years. I don't think it's absolutely necessary, but I can completely see why Crystal wanted to take a different path with depicting Lara and her character than had been done before.

"Otherwise, why bother with a reboot, really?"

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-01-17-writing-lara-croft

I think that it's clear now that she is not the one who is responsible about TR/ROTTR story. She was more focused on Lara and her character. It looks like few teams and playtesters are also working on the story and deciding about it. And also it looks like CD changed and tried many different things with both games.

That's the impression i get after reading this interview and now i am even more confused and not sure what is CD planning for 3rd game.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Isn't the guy who was responsible for Dead space and Battlefield Hardline on the third game?
 

Mik2121

Member
The title threw me off for a sec as I assumed you just misspelled the name...

Anyway, have yet to play the game (Rise of the Tomb Raider) but from what I saw it seemed to be fine? What do people think about the story here?
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
The title threw me off for a sec as I assumed you just misspelled the name...

Anyway, have yet to play the game (Rise of the Tomb Raider) but from what I saw it seemed to be fine? What do people think about the story here?

For the most part, people here hate it. They bag on the whole reboot from the character to the story, even to the actress and making fun of her accent.

I feel like its just plain mean spirited at times.

These games are not perfect by any means, but i have good fun with them.
 

jwk94

Member
So I take it Sam was meant to die? If so, I'm fine with them changing that ending. The deaths in this game bad a fair amount of meaning to them, but Sam would've been taking it a bit too far. All that work just for Lara's best friend and main goal to just die? Actually, that mightve set up her depression storyline a bit better...
 

Jacob4815

Member
The title threw me off for a sec as I assumed you just misspelled the name...

Anyway, have yet to play the game (Rise of the Tomb Raider) but from what I saw it seemed to be fine? What do people think about the story here?

One of the worst and most boring story in videogame history. And terrible characters.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
"The tomb raider she was destined to be"

God damn, they really fucked this character. I mean, Lara was never really much of a character in the original games, but everything about the characterisation of the reboot Lara is terrible.

Poorly written, full of cliches, utterly unbelievable in almost every respect, poor VA, absolutely bottom tier story to the point of it being instantly forgettable... I still can't believe they called the second game "Rise of the Tomb Raider", that title alone shows they really have no idea what they're doing. It's such a terrible, humourless, edgy mess.

Nothing about Lara's character in these games is appealing to me, and I'm a huge proponent for more female leads in all mediums of stroytelling and I actually really enjoyed the gameplay of TR2013.
 

black070

Member
"But we found players had moved on with her. They had been through the adventures. They knew what she'd been through. They'd walked through the fire with her. So they felt toughened by what they had been through in the past with her. That aligned player and player character rather nicely."

I don't think anyone gave the story much thought in all honesty.
 
One of the worst and most boring story in videogame history. And terrible characters.

The entire game was poor imo, most disappointing game of 2016 for me. I got it because of feedback from people who played the xbox and PC version. Not much about the game was done well imo.

I don't think anyone gave the story much thought in all honesty, the gameplay is the saving grace of the series - the writing, story and characters are just a slog.

Don't even find the gameplay great, the encounters were poor, with a lack of dynamics, small amount of enemies, the collectithon crap got old fast and added nothing to the game. Tombs were very poorly implemented.
 
It's crazy to me that it seems to have never occurred to them to make the new Tomb Raider games just, you know, not involve so much murdering of humans.

The old games sure as shit didn't focus on that (or combat in general) nearly so much.
 

Mik2121

Member
For the most part, people here hate it. They bag on the whole reboot from the character to the story, even to the actress and making fun of her accent.

I feel like its just plain mean spirited at times.

These games are not perfect by any means, but i have good fun with them.
I see. People hate just the story or is the gameplay itself also kind of iffy?

One of the worst and most boring story in videogame history. And terrible characters.

Huh! :/
 
It's crazy to me that it seems to have never occurred to them to make the new Tomb Raider games just, you know, not involve so much murdering of humans.

The old games sure as shit didn't focus on that (or combat in general) nearly so much.
AAA expectations
I see. People hate just the story or is the gameplay itself also kind of iffy?

The gameplay is excellent. Very satisfying combat mechanics and good puzzles and tombs in ROTTR.

They're not QUITE there yet with the puzzles, but considering TR2013 had very simple ones, then ROTTR had more complex ones, I'm hoping Shadow has more difficult ones.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
It's crazy to me that it seems to have never occurred to them to make the new Tomb Raider games just, you know, not involve so much murdering of humans.

The old games sure as shit didn't focus on that (or combat in general) nearly so much.

The first game felt like a torture porn simulator at times, and I'm pretty desensitized to this stuff.

They really did go overboard with the violence.


Why huh? What the person wrote is true.

TR2013 and RotTR are two of the most poorly written AAA games of all time, imo.
 

Rymuth

Member
Crazy to me that she's disappointed she couldn't kill off the other characters...not that I'd mind, they were one-note and boring, but it speaks volumes as to her priorities as a writer - grimdark Lara, sole survivor of an island of cannibals and every member of her group dead...

What a great way to set up your fun globetrotting adventures.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
Crazy to me that she's disappointed she couldn't kill off the other characters...not that I'd mind, they were one-note and boring, but it speaks volumes as to her priorities as a writer - grimdark Lara, sole survivor of an island of cannibals and every member of her group dead...

What a great way to set up your fun globetrotting adventures.

She's just a bad writer running with tired tropes and cliches. Every NPC in the first game was a sterotype, and Lara was ridiculously over the top with her abilities.

The hyperbole.
I guess you didn't play ME: Catalyst and few other games in 2016.

Actually, yeh, but if we say "one of the worst modern examples of writing in an AA game" then we're accurate.
 
Crazy to me that she's disappointed she couldn't kill off the other characters...not that I'd mind, they were one-note and boring, but it speaks volumes as to her priorities as a writer - grimdark Lara, sole survivor of an island of cannibals and every member of her group dead...

What a great way to set up your fun globetrotting adventures.

"Originally, when I'd written the first draft of the script, there wasn't so much death in it," Pratchett explains. "And then, gradually the deaths crept in, and it changed the feel of the narrative. It made more sense the players were feeling that way after they'd gone through various other deaths."

"Crystal is very keen not to do the quippy one-liner Lara that characterised classic Lara. There's a part of me that misses that. I know there are players who miss that. From a writer's point of view, it's fun to write that kind of character.

"But quippyness and the devil-may-care attitude suggests confidence and resilience Lara doesn't have yet, so it didn't feel in-line with her character to be that confident and that quippy. Crystal just didn't want the same tone to the character. That wasn't my decision, but I had to write to their vision, and I completely understand that. It's a darker game."

Sounds like they came from elsewhere and not her.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
I see. People hate just the story or is the gameplay itself also kind of iffy?

The hyperbole is very strong. Mostly from the very vocal they hate everything about it period.

Personally if you enjoyed the first game's gameplay this is pretty much the same except with more weapons and a decent amount more platforming/puzzle solving and a new setting. Story is nothing to write home about, but it does the job of giving you an excuse to traverse new areas. Its not offensively bad by any means, just pedestrian and forgettable IMO
 
Crazy to me that she's disappointed she couldn't kill off the other characters...not that I'd mind, they were one-note and boring, but it speaks volumes as to her priorities as a writer - grimdark Lara, sole survivor of an island of cannibals and every member of her group dead...

What a great way to set up your fun globetrotting adventures.

Not to mention that killing off characters has no effect at all unless you're invested in them.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
I never really got the sense she was suffering from PTSD in any sense aside from that first reveal trailer where she was talking to a shrink. I think they underdeveloped this point, which in turn made it seem like Lara was motivated solely by her father's shaming and embarrassment.

I think the game sends mixed messages. Pratchett says that Lara isn't confident or experienced enough to be sassy Lara yet, but nothing in the actual gameplay implies this. She's an expert climber, diver, archaeologist, murderer, translator, etc. And I'm fine with that. But this person is the, "I only hunt for sport," person from the first game.

So in that sense I think she's a bit undercooked.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
The hyperbole is very strong. Mostly from the very vocal they hate everything about it period.

Personally if you enjoyed the first game's gameplay this is pretty much the same except with more weapons and a decent amount more platforming/puzzle solving and a new setting. Story is nothing to write home about, but it does the job of giving you an excuse to traverse new areas.

The story actively killed my interest in continuing with the gameplay in RotTR, it is actually that bad.

It's not hyperbole, it's actively terrible stuff.

As I said, I played TR2013 to completion and really enjoyed it, but by the second game it just got too much.

I never really got the sense she was suffering from PTSD in any sense aside from that first reveal trailer where she was talking to a shrink. I think they underdeveloped this point, which in turn made it seem like Lara was motivated solely by her father's shaming and embarrassment.

I think the game sends mixed messages. Pratchett says that Lara isn't confident or experienced enough to be sassy Lara yet, but nothing in the actual gameplay implies this. She's an expert climber, diver, archaeologist, murderer, translator, etc. And I'm fine with that. But this person is the, "I only hunt for sport," person from the first game.

So in that sense I think she's a bit undercooked.

Absolutely. It's incredibly lazy stuff.
 

Mman235

Member
While the overall interview doesn't exactly fill me with hope about the overall idea behind the writing even if it wasn't heavily compromised, it's interesting that the daddy issues stuff came from Crystal and not Rhianna. Apparently they really are obsessed with shoehorning in family issues for Lara.

Isn't the guy who was responsible for Dead space and Battlefield Hardline on the third game?

The Monkey's Paw activates...
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Ever since i saw the first trailer of Rise and how they were implying she was suffering significantly from PTSD, i wanted Lara to be an unabashed serial killer and have to deal with her essential numbness to being a terminator/murderer and enjoying that.

Yeah it would not have been much of a TR game, but i felt the first game kind of set the whole story up for that, your running around an island with a bunch of psychopaths who have cannibals in caves starve to death so they can throw people in there and rip them apart, they have people gutted and hanging from ceilings, body parts and skeletons piled up everywhere.

Lara should come out of that mentally imbalanced and fairly Rambo ish like she was portrayed in the first game.

In that sense, i felt Rise let me down a lot by having it be a by the numbers story about exploring ruins or whatever. But that's just me.

I wanted a story that really crosses the line and pushes some boundaries in terms of sending a message and telling a story in a way a lot of AAA games are afraid to do.
 
The story and plot in both games is serviceable. The gameplay in both, but especially ROTTR, is incredibly fun and engaging.

I honestly don't understand how people get such raging hate for these games, but I was never a TR player back in the day. TR2013 was the second game I've played in the series in any real sense, after Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light. I'm sure I tried out TR2 or TR3 on a demo disc way back when.
 

Stranya

Member
I didn't mind the actual overall story for Rise; it was the writing that I thought was awful. "You can do this, Lara", and its countless variations, really got on my nerves.
 

jdstorm

Banned
Playing through Rise for the first time after completing 2013.

Im a few hours in and reasonably cold on the whole project. It seems like TR2013 really was a lightning in a bottle moment when they got almost everything right. Albiet without the smoothest creative environment.
 
The story and plot in both games is serviceable. The gameplay in both, but especially ROTTR, is incredibly fun and engaging.

I honestly don't understand how people get such raging hate for these games, but I was never a TR player back in the day. TR2013 was the second game I've played in the series in any real sense, after Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light. I'm sure I tried out TR2 or TR3 on a demo disc way back when.
It is purely due to nostalgia of what old Lara used to be. It's like people completely forget the mess (both narratively and gameplay wise) that was Legend - Anniversary - Underworld.
 

JohngPR

Member
It's crazy to me that it seems to have never occurred to them to make the new Tomb Raider games just, you know, not involve so much murdering of humans.

The old games sure as shit didn't focus on that (or combat in general) nearly so much.

I don't think it's that it never occurred to them, people stopped playing classic Tomb Raider games, even when Legend and Underworld came out and were solid. The audience had moved on with those style of games (mostly environmentally puzzle focused), unfortunately.

Honestly, I feel like story was the biggest Achilles heel of the new TR games, and that's coming from someone that likes the new characterization they gave Lara. My main problem is with the execution of the story. I feel like they went away from what they were suggesting in that initial reveal in 2014:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL8bBf7UANc

I thought they were taking an approach where she survived this thing in the first game and after all the soul searching and PTSD she realizes she kind of has a taste for that kind of chaos and adventure, that she thrives in it.

What we got instead is a lot less interesting, IMO.
 

Rymuth

Member
Sounds like they came from elsewhere and not her.
What I got from that not that she was forced to add deaths but upon examining the gameplay, more deaths for the cast was necessary.

She's also out of touch - check her response to Lara's rape question
"It's a shame, really....some people believe the first thing they read."

<...>
"You could see what actually happens in the game to Lara, ie, the guy getting very handy, you can see that in an average soap opera in the UK. Okay, it's probably not going to end up with the death of either one of the characters, but I think that took us by surprise."

Yeah, no, fuck that....the criticisms didn't happen because "oh mah word, groping in mah game??!" but because the crux of Lara's transformation, the catalyst, was the fact that she was about to be violated. Her choice was taken from her, she didn't pick up the gun to help her friends, she reacted.

And I don't buy "oh no, there was no rape." Yes, it's true, the fail condition for the QTE was that he throttles her but the implication as to what was happening was obvious that if you didn't fail, you would've assumed you saved Lara from that fate.

I never really got the sense she was suffering from PTSD in any sense aside from that first reveal trailer where she was talking to a shrink. I think they underdeveloped this point, which in turn made it seem like Lara was motivated solely by her father's shaming and embarrassment.

I think the game sends mixed messages. Pratchett says that Lara isn't confident or experienced enough to be sassy Lara yet, but nothing in the actual gameplay implies this. She's an expert climber, diver, archaeologist, murderer, translator, etc. And I'm fine with that. But this person is the, "I only hunt for sport," person from the first game.

So in that sense I think she's a bit undercooked.
Ummm....about that >->


No, Lara Isn't Suffering From PTSD In Rise of the Tomb Raider, Says Director

tapping of her feet and the squeezing on the chair... some people have interpreted that as a weakness or as a disorder, and the way we've interpreted that was anticipation to get out of the situation and just go on her adventures."

:/
 
It is purely due to nostalgia of what old Lara used to be. It's like people completely forget the mess (both narratively and gameplay wise) that was Legend - Anniversary - Underworld.
Ah, I gotcha. Having never been part of that, it doesn't drag down my enjoyment of both reboot games.
 
Well, I tried to like it but there was so much disconnect between the story they were trying to tell and the gameplay that I just couldn't suspend my disbelief.

I'm ok with them trying to tell the story of a character that has to toughen up to survive but going from an almost accidental, traumatic first kill to brutally slaughtering 20 armed men the next minute without batting an eye was terrible, good to see her acknowledge it at least.

The story and game in general were not that memorable period, especially taking in account the character we're talking about. I'd rather they'd gone the Uncharted route and just updated the Indy-esque action adventure angle without all the edgy dark drama.
 

Mifec

Member
The story actively killed my interest in continuing with the gameplay in RotTR, it is actually that bad.

It's not hyperbole, it's actively terrible stuff.

As I said, I played TR2013 to completion and really enjoyed it, but by the second game it just got too much.



Absolutely. It's incredibly lazy stuff.
Hey I'm gonna go into my brother's room at night, cut holes into his hands WITHOUT having him wake up and then pretend to be God talking to him

Legit terrible writting.
 
Top Bottom