Well, at least in my case, Mario 64's exploration style structure filled the void that Zelda lost in exploration once it went 3D and became much more linear. And in Mario 64 the exploration just worked so well. Now that it appears Zelda has recaptured that exploration aspect, I would be fine with Mario going back to the Galaxy style structure. I'm still really pumped for Odyssey though.
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Super Mario Odyssey Announced (Holiday 2017)
- Thread starter FireBeaver
- Start date
Well, at least in my case, Mario 64's exploration style structure filled the void that Zelda lost in exploration once it went 3D and became much more linear. And in Mario 64 the exploration just worked so well. Now that it appears Zelda has recaptured that exploration aspect, I would be fine with Mario going back to the Galaxy style structure. I'm still really pumped for Odyssey though.
Aldric
Member
The idea Galaxy is a "100% platforming game" is hilarious.
You essentially do the same things in Galaxy you do in 64, just in a more directed fashion. The dexterity based platforming levels like Matter Splatter or Sweet Sweet Galaxy are few and far between. l actually think Sunshine has more precision platforming than Galaxy as a whole.
The camera is a vast improvement over Mario 64s camera. The only move that got cut was the long jump for obvious reasons. Even then it got substituted with the air dive move witch is just as useful if not more so than the long jump. You are also not acknowledging the wast amount of control options FlUDD brought to the table. Making Mario in Sunshine much more versatile than in any other 3D Mario to date. I will agree that the game was rushed having only 7 worlds to explore in comparison to 14 in 64 but the moment to moment game play is far better than 3D World witch is a game that 3D Mario should not be at all.
Galaxy 2 already pushed linear 3D Mario as far as it should go but 3D Land/World took things way to far, literally watering the game down just so more people can play these games. That is however not what 3D Mario is and never should be. If people want more accessible Mario there is a truck load of 2D Mario out there. There is no reason to downgrade 3D Mario to make it fit the 2D template it was pretty depressing seeing the triple jump being featured in NSMBU but being absent from 3D Land/3D World.
manueldelalas
Time Traveler
Yes, the camera technology is better, BUT the level design makes it awful and actively works against it. In this game you have to constantly position the camera and in many places there isn't a right angle to set it to. This makes many challenges a pain in the ass, especially the blue coin search. And don't get me started on the camera with Yoshi.
Some moves that got cut:
- Duck
- Crawl
- punch
- kick
- jump kick
- long jump
The problem with FLUDD is that it's incredibly slow to use. Hover is slow, pointing is slow, charging is slow, refilling is slow, etc. It works against the game itself. Cleaning was also slow and a chore.
You are just wrong about 3D Land and World, your post reads like you have never played those games, definitely the best Mario games out there, especially World. Also, those games are entirely 3D, unlike the Galaxy games that had strictly 2D stages or parts.
Chill Penguin
Member
I give Sunshine a pass because it was Koizumi's first game as director. I like the idea of a tropical theme for the game but there were definitely some serious game design issues. The fludd mechanic was flawed from the very beginning because frankly it just wasn't that fun. That said I still loved the openness of it and enjoyed playing around in the levels for that reason alone.
Dark Cloud
Member
I'm ready for GameXplains analysis lol
I'm kind of surprised there isn't one yet. They used to upload those videos 2-3 days after a trailer would show up. It's been 2 weeks and still nothing
ShockingAlberto
Member
DecoReturns
Member
Koizumi had directed before. I think sunshine was his first Mario game tho.
This makes me excited; is this from a shareholders presentation or something? Really good way of defining the game in terms of where it will stand in the Mario franchise.
Shikamaru Ninja
任天å ã® å¿è
Koizumi was basically the co-director of Super Mario 64. He was officially listed as assistant director with Miyamoto, but he was the full-time lead designer.
Motokura is the director of Super Mario Odyssey. Motokura was the previous director of Super Mario 3D World. But he was also one of the central designers of the Galaxy series before that.
FloweryMarston
Member
He worked on mario 64. Sunshine's shortcomings aren't because of koizumi's "debut" or younger staff, it was time constraints, both zelda and mario suffered at that time because the gamecube was struggling and they had to get out big games for the system.
RobFox64tm
Member
I'm kind of surprised there isn't one yet. They used to upload those videos 2-3 days after a trailer would show up. It's been 2 weeks and still nothing
Andre has been talking about it in the past few discussions, so he's definitely working on it. The fact it's taking this long means it'll be a doozy. Sadly, he said an analysis of the Zelda trailer isn't likely to happen because the game would be out likely by the time he finished it.
Aldric
Member
l think Sunshine was ill conceived from the start. l think they said something about the creative process for Sunshine being the complete opposite of what Nintendo usually does: instead of coming up with gameplay ideas first and creating a world around them, they came up with the concept of "Mario goes on a vacation in a tropical island" first and created Fludd as a consequence. lt's in an Iwata Asks but l don't remember which one.
Dark Cloud
Member
I actually find the camera in Sunshine to be awful, it doesn't play well at all with the game's (crappy) level design. That game's controls in general are terrible. Honestly one of the worst/most disappointing sequels of all-time, next to the likes of MGS4. Does it have any redeeming qualities? I don't think so.
Thank the lawd for SMG for restoring Mario to true greatness.
Thank the lawd for SMG for restoring Mario to true greatness.
Is it so far-fetched to think that this isn't either Mario's "real world" and just another world he visits? The world with living cutlery isn't exactly fitting either.
Maybe in some alternate dimension we humans would be viewed as cartoony to those who inhabit it.
In any case, we also know that Mario and Luigi are short. Just look at Peach, Pauline, Rosalina and even Syrup. For all we know, maybe female humans are always taller in Mario's universe.
Schopenhauerian
Member
An interesting exchange from 2007, written up at Gamespot:
There are a bunch of threads/posts (here and here) that have discussed the development of the spherical levels, but there are a few additional details in this Gamespot write-up that I hadn't seen before:
Some related comments, over the years:
While Galaxy was designed with accessibility and camera-related issues in mind:
Many still feel (as noted here and here) that camera placement is something that unites Mario 64, Sunshine and the Galaxy games, in contrast to 3D World. And as Miyamoto noted:
On the subject of how Mario controls in 3D, I thought these remarks were also interesting:
In a similar vein, I've been holding out hope that in Mario Odyssey, there will be a little bit more (than we've seen so far) of a Mario 64 influence on the triple jump: one / two / three / four
DecoReturns
Member
Interesting. I knew he work on Mario, but didn't know it was a director position.
Velocity:Design:Comfort
Banned
I have a feeling that people who say 3D World was watered down or not very satisfying difficulty wise didn't play the post World Bowser levels. I admit they did nerf the directional freedom and remove from movement /jump options, but I feel like they made up for it with some really really excellent, difficult level design.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
I don't really see much difference difficulty-wise between all three games to be honest.
Recently, thanks to the Odyssey reveal, I've been playing all three games. I've come to the conclusion that 3D World controls the best. Your movement is zippier and snappier, Mario skids and skates much less and just feels more responsive to move around. I don't have any factual testing here, but the game overall feels feels slightly quicker. And I almost kinda believe 8-way movement is a plus for a Mario platformer, it takes away 360° degree control but in return you're given more precision over the direction of your jumps and where you're going to land.
Level design also helps, every platform in SM3DW seems fine-tuned for the height of your jumps, unlike SMG where a lot of sections require the aid of waggling which I find slightly annoying. SM3DW is really in every respect an incredibly fine-tuned 3D Mario experience, focusing exactly on what matters.
As an aside, I really hope SMO doesn't boot you back to the hub/map after you pick a star or whatever the collectibles in this game will be. That really breaks the flow, but mostly I find it annoying having to sit through extended moments of doing literally nothing when I want to go back to the same level. I really appreciate how every collectible/secret in every SM3DW level is there for the taking in a single play.
Astral Dog
Member
Thats crazy,not in a world were Galaxy 1 and 2 exist.
Butter 60 fps platforming goodness
D
Deleted member 465307
Unconfirmed Member
I believe it was from the Japanese Switch event stream.
Except for not having long jump, which is an absolute disgrace, basic movement in SMS is mostly fine. It's FLUDD that sucks, specifically aiming. Your aiming options are spread over multiple independent controls.
Lightly hold R to spray as you move, but you have zero vertical control.
Hold down R hard to spray in all directions, but you can't move.
Press Y to get a close-up view to aim better, but there's an extended transition between going in and out of this "aiming" mode.
And lastly (I think), you can hold L to strafe as you spray, but you can only aim vertically. And of course, strafing is the *only* type of movement you can do here.
This is all a complete a mess to me, a symptom of being released before third-person shooting controls became standard. All of this crap would be fixed with right analog TPS controls.
And personally, I don't like having to constantly hover when platforming. I also think it's a mistake to having broken up FLUDD's abilities, but I guess having all of them at once would make the game even more complicated already.
Mario games need simplicity. They don't need this crap.
SinCityAssassin
Member
It was a demonstration during the Odyssey panel at the Switch Experience event.
Thanks for the post
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
The problem with Mario Sunshine is that the missions are obnoxious and horrible.
Having not played the game in some time, I'm inclined to believe you. That said, I have some fond memories of several areas of that game.
I strongly disagree. Mario's 2D games need simplicity but simplicity in itself can be taken to extremes. it happened in 3DLand and 3D World. In a 3D space Mario's movement needs a little bit more than just jumping and not much of anything else. The long jump in 3D World for instance was practically useless. Mario needed a run button for no reason at all. The jumping overall felt incredibly sluggish compared to pretty much every single 3D Mario that came before it. Not having a triple jump did not help at all. 3D World might of been a complete game and it had some excellent Level Design but the game play was much worse than in the previous 3D Mario games. It took too long for the game to get even remotely challenging. This has a negative effect in making the game boring to play especially on replays the first four worlds feel like tutorial. 3D World does not have the strengths of the 2D games nor the strengths of the 3D games mostly because its this weird hybrid.
There was nothing wrong with the way Sunshine handled FLUDD. The long jump was absent for the sake of level design if you could long jump and use the hover at the same time the game would of have been broken. That is why the air dive move from 64 was made much more effective in Sunshine to compensate for the lack of a Long Jump while also restricting the player to not use FLUDD when performing it. The list of Options you listed were also made to not overpower Mario. Its also i weird criticism to list because In 64 and Galaxy Marios momentum was also stopped the second he used punching or kicking or even used the spin move in Galaxy.
manueldelalas
Time Traveler
That's your opinion (which is wrong), and you are entitled to it.
Having played every Mario game ever, and having played 3D World AND Sunshine this year, I can say with confidence that 3D World is the best 3D Mario game, the movement is by far the best (Galaxy is too slippery IMO), and the camera is never a problem. The long jump is incredibly useful, how would you get the gold flags without it? It's also useful in too many levels to even discuss this. I maintain that you've never played this games.
It's also not a hybrid, it doesn't have a single 2D section (like the Galaxy games had), I don't know how you can argue this. It's a full 3D game, and the best and more diverse Mario game to date.
Sunshine's camera gets in the way every 5 seconds, the FLUDD is a disaster and not even you want a new game with that monstrosity.
The momentum didn't stop when using the spin in Galaxy, or the jump kick in 64. It's also weird to say that the punch makes momentum stop when the only way to use it is by not be moving.
The momentum did stop when using the FLUDD though.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Wait what? Long jumping is useful in 3D World, especially in the later areas and especially in the gauntlet.
I posted how I feel about control in 3D Marios up above, so I kinda disagree with a lot of what you said. I cannot understand how can call jumping in 3DW sluggish, or the long jump useless, and even less so doing it while defending the convoluted spraying controls of SMS.
I played every single Mario game to date 2D and 3D with the exception of Hotel Mario. So I dont know where you are getting that i did not play 3D World exactly.
The way you said that Sunshine camera gets in the way every 5 seconds leads me to believe that you are the one who has not actually played that game. Or you just dont know how to play it. I am not saying it perfect but that is a exaggeration if i ever saw it.
In what reality does 3D World have better movement than 64 or Sunshine even the Galaxy games exactly.? Especially when the game lacks a triple jump a staple of pretty much every 3D Mario game since the first one. It also lacks a dive move and the long jump is significantly downgraded compared to 64 and Galaxy. You also have to hold the run button despite the fact that the Wii U Gamepad has a functioning analog stick.Witch makes Mario 3D World feel more like a 2D game than a 3D one.To answer your question You can get 95% of the golden flags by well timed jump or you can alternatively get 100% of the golden flag polls by wearing the Cat or Tanoki power up.
Galaxy did not have 2D Sections. Neither did 3D World. They both had 2.5D sections only difference is that in 3D World you are much more likely to die by falling into a bottomless pit. Thanks to you having to fight depth perception. This was not a problem in 3D Land thanks to that game offering Stereoscopic 3D but it is in 3D World thanks to Nintendo sticking with the isometric camera angle. Its actually funny i died way more in 3D World thanks to its camera angles than i did in any other 3D Mario before it. This became a bigger issue when more than one player got involved.
The mid air spin in Galaxy reset Mario's movement every time it was used i am not sure what version of Galaxy you were playing but i am 100% sure this is the case. Also when i referenced Mario 64 i was not talking about the jump kick.
Aldric
Member
It doesn't just cancel Mario's momentum, it gives you so much air control you can essentially reverse the momentum and jump backwards. That's the key of one of my favorite combos of moves to pull off in Galaxy: wall jumping, then spinning in mid air and going backwards to land on higher ground. lf you look at Galaxy's speedruns it's very often used by runners to take shortcuts and for sequence breaking.
l still remember when l realized 3D World was garbage: after unlocking Rosalina l tried to replicate the same moves to see if maybe l could get something approaching Galaxy's acrobatics and finally have a bit of fun with the special jumps. lt felt so stiff and the height gained by the spin was so pathetic in comparison that was the moment l knew l'd never like the game as much as previous 3D Marios.
"Galaxy's acrobatics"...
Coming from 64 and sunshine, that's a hard sell. I remember frequently doing the back flip into a wall, then a wall Kick, then a spin for shortcuts in Galaxy because it was one of the only cool/acrobatics things that Mario could do in that game (and it was still slow). Watching a Galaxy speedrun for the first time and then watching a 64 and a sunshine speedrun is... Yeah, if someone has never done it, give it a try.
Aldric
Member
Galaxy has more sluggish movements than 64 and Sunshine and the removal of the dive is regrettable but it's still very much possible to do cool things with Mario's special jumps and the level design allows for some nice experimentation (the first star of Honeyhive is a personal favorite of mine in any Galaxy speedrun). ln comparison there's no reason to use Mario's special jumps in 3D World as a normal jump has more height and length than any alternative and every interesting tricks need the cat suit to be performed. The no powerups runs are just depressing to watch.
manueldelalas
Time Traveler
I don't know why you insist in the lack of triple jump, yeah, it's not there, and it doesn't matter, the game was not designed to use it. Same with the dive move. Still it controls perfectly and they got rid of all the bloat.
You didn't die because of the camera angles in 3D World, you died because of your own fault, with fixed camera and 8 way control you can't fault the camera, lol.
You died less in past 3D Mario games because there is much less real platforming involved, and the punishment for missing a jump was getting to an earlier part of the level instead of loosing a life and restarting the level. This is a design decision, not really funny, it's supposed to be like that.
Both galaxies had strictly 2D sections, were you could move either left or right. 2.5D is a ridiculous concept used when 2D games started using polygons and developers added dynamic camera and rotating stages, but the games are still 2D or 3D gameplay wise. Klonoa, DKCR and the 2D parts of Galaxy are 2D. Sonic 3D, Mario 64 and the entirety of 3D World are 3D, end of story.
I won't continue to argue with you because you refuse to get your facts straight, and this leads to pointless discussion.
I did not realize we were arguing but if you want to get offended over a video game well then that on you.
Since i had a few LOLs with your post above i though i might as well respond just this last time and for the record none of the things i said were wrong it seems to me that you are confusing your own opinions with actual facts.
Galaxy 2 had just as much platforming as 3D World and i did not die because of the camera once in that game. The galaxy games rarely put you back in earlier parts of the stage if you miss a jump it seems to me that you are just making stuff up to inflate your argument.
You also asked why the the removal of the triple jump bothers me is because it was unnecessary. What you call bloat i call having more options to control Mario and to me that aspect in a 3D Platformer is extremely important. Having to hold a button to make Mario run makes the game control worse than the other games no matter how much polish the game otherwise has, the Wii U has a analog stick there was no need for this setup.
When did i say that 3D World was not 3D exactly? It seems that you just cherry picked a point from my post for no reason. In case you had trouble understanding this let me make it clear 3D World is a 3D game but it plays more like a 2D Mario game. This is not even a opinion its actually more of a fact that 3D World shares much more in common with 2D Mario than the 3D games. Even Miyamoto said this himself. Its not at all unreasonable that some people dont like this since 2D Mario already exists and we want to have more Mario games that play like the older 3D entries in the series.
Look i get it you like 3D World but there probably is a reason why Nintendo is going back to Marios 3D roots with Odyssey. They even brought back the Triple Jump, Dive and you probably wont have to hold a button to run. There most likely wont be any fixed camera angles and there is no pointless timer .I wonder why that is? Maybe its because none of those thing you described as bloat are actually bloat. Not to get ahead of myself but that pretty much cements the fact that its going to be better than 3D Wrold and Land by default.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
You do realize they are going to an open world platformer because it is something they haven't tried for a long time right, and not due to some assumed bullshit?
I want the human amiibos. And I want them in the next Smash, too
