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[Hektor]

Oh lord. A caricature of an Occupy Wall Streeter called, it wants its identity back.

The simple fact is that you are not owed entertainment. A poorer person isn't owed access to the latest videogames, and it isn't some social crime if they have to go to Gamestop and buy a used 360. This isn't stealing a goddamn loaf of bread, here.

You're literally proving Twiforce' point of it being nothing more than elitism. Thank you!

 

[HardRojo]

You aren't very familiar with Zelda as a system-seller, apparently. The PC master race entitlement is very strong, I know.

Wii U system seller, though? Hardly I'd say as the platform is dead. Switch seems to be doing just fine in the mean time.

 

[MUnited83]

I'd personally rather play on the one where the profit goes to people who originally made the game.

Good thing the profit goes to the people who originally made the game in every single version unless you go out of your way to pirate.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

So you are saying there are people using this to download BoTw for free!?!
Cool for people to upgrade their game. But why don't you care that people are using that for piracy?
Just as guilty in my opinion!

This post is absurdly stupid and insulting.

Oh, c'mon, man.

To the first point, yes -- I 100% believe that people will pirate the game rather than pay for it. And I don't really see how 'but I bought a copy' justifies that. It's not an "insult" to point out that your passion project just so happens to lead to people stealing games from Nintendo.

I first approach the topic from the vantage point of trying to argue that just because someone uses a tool for bad purposes that doesn't automatically make it bad. Given that I understand that this type of rhetoric also applies to things that can kill people, I am willing to try and roll up my sleeves and get into the nitty gritty of the specific implications of the current topic. Perhaps piracy skyrockets and Nintendo sells 0 copies of the game and they never make another Zelda game because I just didn't care enough.

The pragmatic arguments I would make here are just that I don't really see it. If I own a Wii U and want to pirate the game, I can anyway. If I don't own a Wii U or Switch and this emulator doesn't exist, I can't buy the game anyway as I have nothing to play it on. Yes, this emulator does give people that don't own Nintendo hardware an opportunity to pirate the game, but any such download is not a lost sale. These people weren't potential customers.

Even if I'm very, very concerned about the implications of piracy, I don't see this as a particularly compelling thing to get worked up about. The Wii U is legacy hardware that is already cracked as it is. This isn't opening up many doors for unethical consumers.

 

[Perfect Blue]

How deep in capitalist ideology one must be to get so angry at the mere possibility that somebody might play a video game without stuffing the pockets of some bourgeouis executives.

Anti-piracy ideology is just patheitc anti-poor elitism from middle class people who think people with less money than them dont deserve to participate in popular culture like they do. As if money is some objective representation of moral character or "hard work!" So what if people use Cemu to pirate Breath the Wild? If culture being shared freely among the people to the detriment of corporate profits pisses you off so much, get your fucking priorities straight. There are real problems in the world that affect real people. Or at least keep it to yourself and stop shitting up every thread about emulation with your judgemental moralizing bullshit.

lmao good troll, had me going there for a second.

 

[Skyzard]

Never looked at CEMU until now. How easy is it to rip your disks?

Pretty easy to do with ddd, works for digital titles too, but takes ages as it transfers over network. You can specify to just get your save file this way too and that's much quicker of course.

There's another program called wudump that works with the disc and transfers it to usb/sd with 23gb+ free, no need to worry about wireless connection. You then need to merge the files. Should be guides available.

Running these programs is pretty easy with a website based hack.

 

[rjc571]

Even if CEMU could emulate Zelda without additional slowdown, it would still only run as well as the Wii U version on real hardware meaning the Switch version still would have better performance.

 

[hodgy100]

Ah, yes, BIOS. That's what you often have to provide yourself with various emulators, yes. Aaaaand people are ripping that from their Wii Us themselves, I assume...? I guess this is in some sort of grey area that we don't really talk about here. (I'm not here to call anyone a pirate. But yeah, grey area.)

CEMU doesnt need a BIOS

its literally been stated in this thread multiple times

oh. mii avatar. keep fighting the good fight...

 

[aBarreras]

You're literally proving Twiforce' point of it being nothing more than elitism. Thank you!

working to buy things you like is now elitism. god damn

 

[Cow Goes Moo]

im surprised, i thought citra in general would be making faster progress at this point

 

[tuxfool]

Ah, yes, BIOS. That's what you often have to provide yourself with various emulators, yes. Aaaaand people are ripping that from their Wii Us themselves, I assume...? I guess this is in some sort of grey area that we don't really talk about here. (I'm not here to call anyone a pirate. And I don't personally know how the BIOS thing actually plays into the legality of all this.)

Neither Dolphin nor CEMU require a BIOS.

 

[HardRojo]

Actually a mod answered my question about piracy, so I assume it's fair game to talk about. It's the dark side of emulation.. can't avoid it

Piracy can be discussed in GAF, derailing the threads about emulation with piracy concerns with no evidence or anything else other than "piracy is bad", is frowned upon.

 

[Dario ff]

His opinion negates your view (which no offense is worth less than his on the matter)that game specific hacks wouldnt cause this much progress in a week and that its coincidence.
Read the comments, there is also stuff on reddit but im not trawling through all that now.
https://mobile.twitter.com/byuu_san/status/841142823797870592
Also the only reason Dolphin is able to clear up those hacks is because going open source encouraged more people to work on it.

Again, byuu's opinion does not negate my view nor is it worth any less if they do not have access to more information than the rest of us do. You're being ridiculous.

I see zero proof of what you say negates my opinion on that twitter thread other than speculation and general emulation talk.

I fully support open-source emulation, have researched the code of many of them and modified them to my needs. Open-source and closed-source is merely the distribution of the program and in no way implies there's a heavy reliance on hacks. e.g. Dolphin was just as bad and relied on a lot of hacks from the first day it was open source.

 

[Eolz]

Game development is labor regardless of how much the product created sales. If employers are not providing workers with sufficient wages and benefits for that labor, to provide a good quality of life with good working consitions, that is 100 percent the fault of the employer.

Besides- the class of people who control labor, including labor in the gaming indistry, are the same class of people responsible for witholding the Earth's resources from all the rest of us, creating a situation where artists need compensation to not starve in the first place

There is no logic in blaming the common people exercising our moral right to freely share and participate in our own culture for this situation.

What the hell... Are you serious right now?

 

[WrenchNinja]

Stop getting so defensive.

I'm not the one complaining about piracy in yet another emulation thread.

 

[thefil]

Said money goes towards said corporation making more games.

So then the argument is we should take whatever legal framework maximizes Nintendo's profits, regardless of user protections?

People need to at least propose an alternative. Because the default - not protecting emulators - is the way you end up with unplayable games decades after (unreasonably long) copyright has expired and a de facto perpetual right to sell the game and limit which platforms it's on.

But hey, that's cool.

 

[Woo-Fu]

If people wanted to pirate Breath of the Wild, they can do so more easily with an actual Wii U, a console that is discontinued and relatively cheap compared to a high end PC, so the idea that this emulator will enable piracy is incredibly flawed.

Isn't flawed at all. Most efforts put into defeating piracy are angled at making it a non-casual process. Having to actually buy a wii u, maintain it, set it up, etc. is more of a hurdle then simply downloading and installing a couple archives on a pc you already own. As soon as you decide to do it you're minutes away from having done it, unlike having to procure hardware.

That said, the argument either way misses the point. The emulation itself isn't illegal AFAIK. What people may do with it is a separate issue. You can't hold the makers of CEMU responsible for stuff like that any more than you'd hold Ford responsible for somebody running somebody over with one of their vehicles.

While I personally think there are probably a million pirates for every person using CEMU for legit purposes it doesn't matter what I think as long as that legit user exists, or even has the potential to exist.

Have absolutely zero problem with owners of the game wanting it to run on more capable hardware so that they can derive even more enjoyment from the experience.

 

[jonno394]

So then the argument is we should take whatever legal framework maximizes Nintendo's profits, regardless of user protections?

People need to at least propose an alternative. Because the default - not protecting emulators - is the way you end up with unplayable games decades after (unreasonably long) copyright has expired and a de facto perpetual right to sell the game and limit which platforms it's on.

But hey, that's cool.

Id rather have no emulation and no piracy if it means Nintendo keep making games that I can play in the here and now.

If only there were PS4 emulators so I could play my PS4 games better without having to buy a PS4 pro.

 

[Twiforce]

working to buy things you like is now elitism. god damn

"People who dont work* dont deserve the same things as people who do work*" is pretty elitist, not to mention ableist

*work, of course, being defined by whatever a capitalist is willing to employ us to do, rather than defined by any sort of common good

 

[tuxfool]

Even if CEMU could emulate Zelda without additional slowdown, it would still only run as well as the Wii U version on real hardware meaning the Switch version still would have better performance.

No, not really. For some people it already runs better than on the switch version (docked). I don't think you understand how emulators work.

 

[shandy706]

The easiest way to pirate Wii U games isn't just with a Wii U, it is BY FAR the cheapest way. $200 Wii U versus spending more than that on a video card let alone memory, cpu, motherboard et al.

That said, I'm getting frustrated by the framerate in the game. While I'm assuming my 3770k and 1060 won't be able to run it in anything like 1080p/60, I'd happily settle for 720p/30 locked. I wonder if that will be feasible?

That's the funny part.

Our Wii U is sitting in my daughter's room hooked up to their flatscreen. If I was interested in pirating I'm under the impression, from these threads, that I could just do it on our Wii U. Meanwhile, my $700 GPU will do some heavy lifting to play Wii U games. Emulating recent console games at playable framerates on PC isn't something a low end GPU can do.

Heck, even the N64/Wii games I attempted to emulate when I first got my i7/GTX 260 setup many years ago struggled. I'm curious how my 980 Ti / i7 combo will handle CEMU.

 

[Seik]

*Enters the thread as an emulation enthusiast*

*Sees all the uneducated shit-posts and piracy accusations*

Seriously, something needs to be done with that shit. Some folks should read a thread I made back then that shows that emulation doesn't necessarily mean piracy, you can rip your own ROMs, and it's now easier than ever.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1210652&highlight=

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

So you're saying piracy is good because some people don't want to buy their games but still play them?
Again, my post was for someone pirating openly, not someone buying a game then emulating it.

Piracy is bad because it does impact the market.

But you can't use the "you're withholding money from the content creator" because piracy isn't theft and the only entity who is forcing the dichotomy of "free" or "nothing" is not the content creator, but the publisher.

 

[Paz]

How deep in capitalist ideology one must be to get so angry at the mere possibility that somebody might play a video game without stuffing the pockets of some bourgeouis executives.

Anti-piracy ideology is just patheitc anti-poor elitism from middle class people who think people with less money than them dont deserve to participate in popular culture like they do. As if money is some objective representation of moral character or "hard work!" So what if people use Cemu to pirate Breath the Wild? If culture being shared freely among the people to the detriment of corporate profits pisses you off so much, get your fucking priorities straight. There are real problems in the world that affect real people. Or at least keep it to yourself and stop shitting up every thread about emulation with your judgemental moralizing bullshit.

I'm a game developer and I can assure you we are all real people and your attitude is completely broken.

Piracy is far from what I'd call a serious crime and the current punishments are rather absurd but your views are just as awfully damaging in different ways.

 

[Skyzard]

Come on guys, it's the switch's baby. Let's not beat around the bush.

Even if CEMU could emulate Zelda without additional slowdown, it would still only run as well as the Wii U version on real hardware meaning the Switch version still would have better performance.

There might not be any slowdown at all, which they've managed with other wiiu games on cemu (once you've got your shader cache - which you can download).

 

[jrcbandit]

Everybody still needs a WiiU to dump their copy of the game though.

No you don't, you can download all WiiU games direct from Nintendo servers with easy to use PC software. Now technically it's illegal to run said game without having done the ripping yourself, but I think most people will let that slide morally as long as you own the physical WiiU disc too.

 

[KAL2006]

If PS4 can be easily emulated and all the latest games such as Uncharted 4, and Horizon can he playable in 4k on PC. I'm sure Sony wouldn't mind too.

Fact is Nintendo could potentially lose sales not only in software but hardware for Switch. Is it enough to be a huge deal i doubt it. As for preservation argument, why is this not open source emulator, seems Devs want it closed so they can make some money through Patreon.

Is this legal, of course

So does it matter nit, really, only for Nintendo it does.

 

[shiyrley]

It's strange that it's legal, but eh

It's strange that emulators are legal? Why? Since when? Is it strange that water is legal, too?

 

[rackham]

Man I can't wait to play the definitive version of this game with no jaggies and beautiful frame rate.

 

[badcrumble]

Even if CEMU could emulate Zelda without additional slowdown, it would still only run as well as the Wii U version on real hardware meaning the Switch version still would have better performance.

Nope, Cemu performance improvements should be able to raise the rendering resolution well above the Switch's 900p and get the framerate locked at a rock-solid 30 (given that it's a physics-heavy game, though, it's reasonable to expect 60fps emulation to introduce lots of difficult-to-fix problems).

 

[Abilidebob]

Some of the posts here reminds me a little too much of posts I used to read back when Securom and no-CD cracks were getting common.

Of COURSE in general a tool like an emulator or a no-CD crack is going to be used mostly by pirates. I'm from a 3rd world country, I'm not gonna kid myself. ON THE OTHER HAND, those tools are extremely helpful for actual paying costumers that may feel inconvenienced by something a company did. I remember that one of the few original PC games I used to have was The Sims. Or was it The Sims 2? Anyway, loved the game to death. But then my CD drive just died. It couldn't be fixed, and we didn't have the "budget" to buy a new one. I was decimated. The game was installed on my PC, but because of some anti-consumer bullshit I couldn't play it.

Of course, my salvation was a no-CD crack that I found on a pirate-focused site. In a few minutes the game I've bought was up and running because of a tool that was mostly used by people to play something for free.

And at the time I remember reading on some forums how some people abhorred the idea of a crack, no matter the situation. I can find a lot of similarities in this thread.

The same can be said about emulators. I bought a WiiU just for Zelda and am loving it. And yet I can't wait until CEMU is good enough to replay the game at an acceptable image quality and performance. Denying legal, paying costumers the chance to use an amazing tool like CEMU because it can(and will) be used by pirates is one of the saddest things I keep reading on this forum.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

IIRC CEMU's getting a ton of patreon money, so I'm not surprised they're working at breakneck pace. It's pretty cool to see though.

 

[MUnited83]

Even if CEMU could emulate Zelda without additional slowdown, it would still only run as well as the Wii U version on real hardware meaning the Switch version still would have better performance.

False. In fact, it already runs better than the Switch sometimes provided you have good enough hardware.

 

[AndersK]

At this rate it'll be ready for me by the time I finish Horizon.

Same here! Gonna be glorius. I've spent 800 bucks across a ps4 and a Pro, and if someone made an emulator making bloodborne possible at 4k/60 i'd starve myself to be able to afford to support them.

I certainly wouldn't let concern and entitlement or loyalty to a corporation make me think otherwise. Eveyone should get to play BB.

 

[thefil]

I think the issue is that the game isnt even a month old - no one has issues with Wind Waker/ Okami etc. popping up via emu screens. If you cant understand why making it easier to play pirated/free versions of new released titles might be an issue...thats okay as well - im a fan of emulation and new advances in the space. Just not the fan of the kind of money they are getting and the way it is being promoted.



Persons interested in this(or any kind of high-end emu) likely already own a beefy rig...

How can you protect a system from playing a specific game until a certain timeframe, legally or technically? In this case there could be some new form of copyright I suppose that prevents executing the code on virtual hardware, and since the emulator needs hacks they could specifically avoid fixing it. But emulators are general purpose virtual computers, and if Cemu was more stable and could play a new game without hacks, how would you protect the right for it to exist while also preventing it from playing new title?

This is like the step 2 question that nobody asks themselves: "If I want X to not be allowed, could we do it without severely harming existing rights and freedoms?"

 

[jediyoshi]

Even if CEMU could emulate Zelda without additional slowdown, it would still only run as well as the Wii U version on real hardware meaning the Switch version still would have better performance.

about that

 

[Vuze]

*Enters the thread as an emulation enthusiast*

*Sees all the uneducated shit-posts and piracy accusations*

Seriously something needs to be done with that shit.

Totally agreed. Aeana already hinted at it in another thread so here's to hope stricter rules will be enforced soon.

 

[mr teaspoon]

You're literally proving Twiforce' point of it being nothing more than elitism. Thank you!

Whose obnoxiously mangled definition of "elitism" is that?

All this 'bourgeois' and 'elitism' being thrown around, and all in the defense of 'I want to play my Nintendo!' The irony is staggering.

Someone can't afford $360 on a new console and game. That's not a crime against humanity. That's not cutting someone else off from the human experience. That means you either buy an older console, or save up for a new one.

Whatever the pirates are in this scenario, they aren't goddamn victims.

 

[Krappadizzle]

I can't wait to play this at 4k. Already put in 60 hours on the Wii U version.

 

[panama chief]

Pretty easy to do with ddd, works for digital titles too, but takes ages as it transfers over network. You can specify to just get your save file this way too and that's much quicker of course.

There's another program called wudump that works with the disc and transfers it to usb/sd with 23gb+ free, no need to worry about wireless connection. You then need to merge the files. Should be guides available.

Running these programs is pretty easy with a website based hack.

Good shit. Thank you. I'm finally rolling into the gaming PC race and if I can play my Wii U games at a higher res/ better fps on my KS8000....then I'm going to.

 

[aBarreras]

"People who dont work* dont deserve the same things as people who do work*" is pretty elitist, not to mention ableist

*work, of course, being defined by whatever a capitalist is willing to employ us to do, rather than defined by any sort of common good

go join greenpace if you are so concerned about the "common good"

there a lot of jobs that are for the common good, and they are paid too

 

[MTC100]

Even if CEMU could emulate Zelda without additional slowdown, it would still only run as well as the Wii U version on real hardware meaning the Switch version still would have better performance.

Actually no, emulators can run games at much higher fps, resolution and better texture quality, depending on the hardware of the PC(and quality of the emulator) that emulates the system. The Cemu version will definitely surpass the Switch version at some point and will most likely run with a more stable framerate too.

 

[sanstesy]

When you can excuse potential piracy through emulation by saying "Well, it's their fault they are not releasing it on PC." then there is something clearly wrong here.

 

[Soul of the Beast]

Wait, does that mean people can play this on PC right now without paying for the game?
Does EVERYONE have access to this emulator? Can any PC player download the emulator to play Wii U version of Breath of the Wild right now?

I am new to the whole emulator topics and I am asking very honestly and seriously, please explain it to me, how does CEMU work?

 

[Steve Youngblood]

How deep in capitalist ideology one must be to get so angry at the mere possibility that somebody might play a video game without stuffing the pockets of some bourgeouis executives.

Anti-piracy ideology is just patheitc anti-poor elitism from middle class people who think people with less money than them dont deserve to participate in popular culture like they do. As if money is some objective representation of moral character or "hard work!" So what if people use Cemu to pirate Breath the Wild? If culture being shared freely among the people to the detriment of corporate profits pisses you off so much, get your fucking priorities straight. There are real problems in the world that affect real people. Or at least keep it to yourself and stop shitting up every thread about emulation with your judgemental moralizing bullshit.

OK, if "all emulation is piracy" represents garbage posting, I would say that this goes too far in the complete opposite direction. Firstly, this forum isn't actually interested in rationalizing piracy as "OK." Secondly, I would argue that if your personal computer possesses the computing power necessary to properly emulate Breath of the Wild, you're probably not in a position to argue that having the money to buy the game is a problem.

 

[Eolz]

"People who dont work* dont deserve the same things as people who do work*" is pretty elitist, not to mention ableist

*work, of course, being defined by whatever a capitalist is willing to employ us to do, rather than defined by any sort of common good

It's time to stop posting, seriously. Even if it's sarcasm, it's pretty bad.

Piracy is bad because it does impact the market.

But you can't use the "you're withholding money from the content creator" because piracy isn't theft and the only entity who is forcing the dichotomy of "free" or "nothing" is not the content creator, but the publisher.

I didn't say piracy = theft. I said that emulating without a bought copy is piracy, and that doing it with current games just means that's less money for the publisher they could have gotten otherwise.
Less copies sold = less reasons to continue making those games. Piracy has no legal defense, sorry.

 

[SpiceMelange]

My understanding of the US laws is that anyhow personal backups of Wii U games are played illegally. That is because while a personal backup is not illegal per se, by US laws it is illegal to circumvent a medium's DRM. The only way to play Wii U games on CEMU is to decrypt the game. While gaf is a private forum and mod rules don't have a concept of being "just" I imagine the reason the ban on discussing distribution of copyright content is because it is illegal by US laws so if my interpretation of copyright law is correct it's kind of a double standard to able to talk about playing commercial copyright games on CEMU and not just homebrew.

(a)Violations Regarding Circumvention of Technological Measures.—
(1)
(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. The prohibition contained in the preceding sentence shall take effect at the end of the 2-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of this chapter.

(2) As used in this subsection—
(A) to ”circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure" means avoiding, bypassing, removing, deactivating, or otherwise impairing a technological measure; and

(3) As used in this subsection—
(A) to ”circumvent a technological measure" means to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work, or otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair a technological measure, without the authority of the copyright owner; and

Sources
The law in question
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201

Article on Circumventing Copyright Controls
http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/circumventing-copyright-controls

a FAQ about the subject
https://www.lumendatabase.org/topics/12

Technological protection systems are already in place in DVDs, eBooks, video game consoles, robotic toys, Internet streaming, and password-protected sections of web sites.

 

[Shari]

...

The sheer amount of patience that you're showing here is mind blogging and quite unprecedented from GAF's moderation.

Although I dont understand why so many warnings. In an non-emulation topic this would have been considered as a user pushing his agenda for system/company X and would have been handed a ban. Here we're all chatty (which in turn helps derailing, much like this reply, sorry). I'm not asking for reasoning or doubting the moderation, just striked me as odd.

Back on topic, this thread is OK for the fun of seeing a major site acknowledging emulation work, but its nothing new, it's been happening more and more since CEMU guys are getting REAL money.

...

Interesting. Is NeoGAF a global forum hosted in the US or is it a US forum? Does it even matter legally?

 

[Twiforce]

go join greenpace if you are so concerned about the "common good"

there a lot of jobs that are for the common good, and they are paid too

Do you actuslly believe that people in capitalist society can just choose whatever job they want to do? Like, have you seen the job market? Most of us are doing pointless busywork for pointless corporations producing pointless commodities, all to keep the flow of capital moving. We have no choice, we just take whatever we can tolerate the most and keep surviving.

 

[Lifeline]

I downloaded it.

Spoiler

From Nintendo and was charged $90.39

You don't understand, unless you play it on a Wii U, the Devs don't get the money. It's instead burned and trashed.