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Shipping Unfinished/Unpolished Games Now, Apologizing Later With Patch Roadmap

SOLDIER

Member
Between No Man's Sky, Street Fighter V, Final Fantasy XV, Mass Effect Andromeda and now maybe Persona 5 of all things, this is now officially a trend that publishers are taking with their games. I now think it is the single worst thing to happen to videogames.

Sure, there's the glass-half-full approach to this: most publishers who release a shoddy, rushed-out game would typically say "Fuck you, got mine" and not bother making any fixes. There's also the strange middle-ground example with FFXV, which does not entirely get a pass as it does have some narrative/gameplay flaws that should have been ironed out before release, but is still alleging to address those flaws as well as add completely new (and previously unplanned) additions to the game such as off-road driving and additional playable characters.

But the most egregious examples are just far too terrible for this trend to continue. Mass Effect: Andromeda is a technical embarrasment that plenty of people on staff must have noticed, but was still shipped out anyway because "fuck the fans, get it out there (and later tell them how much we care)". Having a detailed roadmap of patches doesn't fill me with any relief...it just tells me the game isn't worth playing at all until months after all their patches (or even then...I've personally lost all interest in ever touching that game).

There was a brief moment where the argument could be made about "early access" console games, and it began and ended with Street Fighter V. If Capcom had released that game with a functioning Arcade Mode, the Fight Money store and an almost-complete online network, then this could have been the beginning of a unique trend with getting games out earlier so long as the core features were available. Instead, their Makoto walk animation levels of slow updates have decimated their sales and possibly any longterm interest. There's something to be said when every single fighting game released afteward has come out with three times SFV's roster and with far quicker updates.

And now this might happen with Persona 5. The circumstances may not be as shitty: the translation isn't bad, the streaming situation can easily be reversed, etc. But it didn't have to happen. It was the one game I'm certain lots of people were hoping would release issue-free. My launch experience has been soured as a result, and if Atlus is going to come up with their own "patches roadmap" to polish the localization, I might just put the game down then and there. It's extremely rare for me to go back and replay a game 30+ hours, and Persona games tend to go towards the hundreds. What's the point playing a product that I know is officially "inferior", especially when I can still put time toward the games that came out bullshit-free? Imagine if Nintendo pulled this shit with Zelda or any of their other releases.

I'm at a point where just reading the PR-formatted letters that state how these fixes are the result of "the fans" and "strong community feedback" makes me want to puke.

We aren't your fucking fans, we're your customers. If you really cared, you wouldn't have done us dirty to begin with.

Again, not every instance of this is a No Man's Sky fuck-up, but it's becoming more and more of a common trend and I for one am sick of it. I'm not saying every new release has to be perfect and bug-free from launch, but the corners these publishers have cut are far beyond simple annoyances like Zelda's framerate. They are sweeping issues that take months (or possibly never) to fix. I honestly can't think of a worse thing to happen to modern videogames.
 
Yeah its really shit. I'd rather a game was delayed overall to have it ship with all the features then pay full price for 50/60% of a game, then have the rest of it delivered piecemeal. Its shitty.
 

dugdug

Banned
Again, not every instance of this is a No Man's Sky fuck-up, but it's becoming more and more of a common trend and I for one am sick of it. I'm not saying every new release has to be perfect and bug-free from launch, but the corners these publishers have cut are far beyond simple annoyances like Zelda's framerate. They are sweeping issues that take months (or possibly never) to fix. I honestly can't think of a worse thing to happen to modern videogames.

I mean, is it really? You mentioned 5 games out of literally thousands that are released every year.

I mean, I get the frustration, but, I don't think it's nearly as prevalent as you're making it out to be.
 
You're right it could have been a completely issue free launch, another round of editing for the script before recording VA, not being shitty to your customers by blocking screenshots/videos.
 
I just see it as more ammo to convince people to stop preordering.

"oh, the game's not done yet? I'll come back when it's fixed and over half off"
 
Idk, I feel like games come out broken and rushed regardless, just now people have ways of fixing them.


The simple solution is just don't buy them at launch if you feel that way. The games will not only be cheaper but more functional and more complete by the time you get around to them.
 

Gator86

Member
P5's localization is terrific 10 hours in. You're crazy putting it in a list with Andromeda, which is clearly an unfinished game, and NMS, which was clearly a scam.
 
It's disgusting, absolutely the worst aspect of modern day gaming. In the "good old days" you had to ship a working, functional, and complete game since pubs didn't have the option of patches, dlc, adding missing content, etc. This shit needs to stop ASAP. Just delay the game rather than release it half finished.
 
You made a mistake mentioning Persona 5 OP. People are just going to harp on that example rather than discuss the overall point of your post.
 

zMiiChy-

Banned
I'm more bothered by the Persona 5 streaming debacle than all the others barring No Man's Sky, but it really doesn't fit the point you are trying to make. at all.
 
It sucks, but a number of those games were pushed because of money/fiscal quarter deadlines. It is usually the publishers that push this on the developers. It is the publishers that should apologize not the developers for the mess some of those games come out in. Plus Persona 5 being unfinished? You are crazy the translation is fine. I would love to see you try to translate a whole game like Persona 5 with the amount of dialogue that occurs and have it make sense in a western market without some mistakes here and there.
 
What I think would really help is for publishers to stop announcing games so early. It's much easier for people to accept a few months delay for a game they've only known about for six months than it is for a game they've been hearing about non-stop for three years.
 
Between No Man's Sky, Street Fighter V, Final Fantasy XV, Mass Effect Andromeda and now maybe Persona 5 of all things, this is now officially a trend that publishers are taking with their games. I now think it is the single worst thing to happen to videogames.

Sure, there's the glass-half-full approach to this: most publishers who release a shoddy, rushed-out game would typically say "Fuck you, got mine" and not bother making any fixes. There's also the strange middle-ground example with FFXV, which does not entirely get a pass as it does have some narrative/gameplay flaws that should have been ironed out before release, but is still alleging to address those flaws as well as add completely new (and previously unplanned) additions to the game such as off-road driving and additional playable characters.

But the most egregious examples are just far too terrible for this trend to continue. Mass Effect: Andromeda is a technical embarrasment that plenty of people on staff must have noticed, but was still shipped out anyway because "fuck the fans, get it out there (and later tell them how much we care)". Having a detailed roadmap of patches doesn't fill me with any relief...it just tells me the game isn't worth playing at all until months after all their patches (or even then...I've personally lost all interest in ever touching that game).

There was a brief moment where the argument could be made about "early access" console games, and it began and ended with Street Fighter V. If Capcom had released that game with a functioning Arcade Mode, the Fight Money store and an almost-complete online network, then this could have been the beginning of a unique trend with getting games out earlier so long as the core features were available. Instead, their Makoto walk animation levels of slow updates have decimated their sales and possibly any longterm interest. There's something to be said when every single fighting game released afteward has come out with three times SFV's roster and with far quicker updates.

And now this might happen with Persona 5. The circumstances may not be as shitty: the translation isn't bad, the streaming situation can easily be reversed, etc. But it didn't have to happen. It was the one game I'm certain lots of people were hoping would release issue-free. My launch experience has been soured as a result, and if Atlus is going to come up with their own "patches roadmap" to polish the localization, I might just put the game down then and there. It's extremely rare for me to go back and replay a game 30+ hours, and Persona games tend to go towards the hundreds. What's the point playing a product that I know is officially "inferior", especially when I can still put time toward the games that came out bullshit-free? Imagine if Nintendo pulled this shit with Zelda or any of their other releases.

I'm at a point where just reading the PR-formatted letters that state how these fixes are the result of "the fans" and "strong community feedback" makes me want to puke.

We aren't your fucking fans, we're your customers. If you really cared, you wouldn't have done us dirty to begin with.

Again, not every instance of this is a No Man's Sky fuck-up, but it's becoming more and more of a common trend and I for one am sick of it. I'm not saying every new release has to be perfect and bug-free from launch, but the corners these publishers have cut are far beyond simple annoyances like Zelda's framerate. They are sweeping issues that take months (or possibly never) to fix. I honestly can't think of a worse thing to happen to modern videogames.

I agree with every single sentence of your post, except the bit of Persona 5. In the old days, that would be just... poor translation (at most). And the streaming issue? I'm glad that they went the extra mile to ensure the spoilers wouldn't be everywhere, so as a customer I'm really happy they took that decision.

Bethesda should have been sued for Skyrim on PS3, and yet, here we are. Millions of idiots (and that's a tame adjective...) bought that broken ass game. They barely even fixed it (if). So, pardon me if I don't freak out when I see a game like No Man's Sky or SFV that are lacking a lot of features, but at least both work and don't crash every 5 minutes. I waited for the reviews, and if I didn't mind that some features were missing, I could go ahead and play without any issues.
 

Inorganic

Member
Putting Persona 5 with those other games is a little ridiculous. It's far from unfinished and/or unpolished. Maybe a little localization clean up to iron out the dialogue but as of now it's still completely playable and very enjoyable.
 
Guys OP specifically noted that P5's situation isn't nearly as bad as the others. The specific beef is that its issues aren't gamebreaking but still frustrating that they could have been easily avoided.

You made a mistake mentioning Persona 5 OP. People are just going to harp on that example rather than the overall point of your post.

It's amazing, people are asking "what's wrong with persona 5, why is it in there?" when the OP actually addresses that directly. Shame people aren't reading it because I agree with the post's overall sentiment, especially about SFV.
 

Gator86

Member
You made a mistake mentioning Persona 5 OP. People are just going to harp on that example rather than the overall point of your post.

Accurate. The P5 thing is "get the fuck out" level inaccurate but the overall point is valid. Companies will always do the least possible they can get away with and make money on and gamers love supporting shit business practices so why wouldn't you do that if it's working? People can't stop preordering, buying unfinished shit, snatching up microtransactions, etc. If you're trusting a company to do the right thing because it's right, you're fucked.
 
It's definitely at the point where I think it's not a good idea for me, as a customer, to preorder games (and make no mistake, this kind of behavior on the part of publishers is absolutely encouraged by preordering).
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Thinking of this issue, i'd like to recognize Horizon: Zero Dawn for a stellar launch. The version I covered for launch was basically version 1.0. No patches applied. While they have continued to update the game, the initial version was remarkably solid - a very well built game with little to no problems. It's the kind of game where you could own the disc and not worry about the inability to access future patches.
 
It sucks, but a number of those games were pushed because of money/fiscal quarter deadlines.

THIS. As much as a developer would like to keep pushing back a release date, at some point it's either "hit financial quarter X" or "start reducing costs" (aka: reduce staff).

Is this fair to developers/players? Nope. And players don't give a crap about stocks. But there's a good reason why ME:A shipped 8 days before the end of EA's financial year, too.
 

SOLDIER

Member
Guys OP specifically noted that P5's situation isn't nearly as bad as the others. The specific beef is that its issues aren't gamebreaking but still frustrating that they could have been easily avoided.



It's amazing, people are asking "what's wrong with persona 5, why is it in there?" when the OP actually addresses that directly. Shame people aren't reading it because I agree with the post's overall sentiment, especially about SFV.

"For a game with a script that large.....even if that is the case....it cannot be helped!"

"Tch! This localization....scum!"

Again, it's not remotely as bad as the other examples listed, but it is a step below Atlus' previous quality.

And before you say "that's fine, I can put up with lower quality", you shouldn't have to. That's the whole point of setting expectations high.

The P5 localization feels like if the same translators went back and localized Persona 4, Teddie would lose all his bear puns and just end every sentence with "-kuma".
 
If your going to list P5 for issues like that, you might as well list stuff like BotW for performance issues that got pretty much fixed in a patch month later.
 

Beartruck

Member
Guys OP specifically noted that P5's situation isn't nearly as bad as the others. The specific beef is that its issues aren't gamebreaking but still frustrating that they could have been easily avoided.



It's amazing, people are asking "what's wrong with persona 5, why is it in there?" when the OP actually addresses that directly. Shame people aren't reading it because I agree with the post's overall sentiment, especially about SFV.
His whole point is that modern games have massive issues. Saying "oh and this game has some minor issues too" adds nothing and hurts his argument. Like, most games have small issues that could be fixed. Why does Persona 5 specifically merit inclusion here?
 
Games cost a ton of money to make and their price has effectively gone down rather sharply in the last decade. If we're getting consistently unfinished games, that's coming from budget constraints which are our fault for insisting that the base price of games can't be more than $60. Everyone is just trying to survive in this market, which frequently involves making hard decisions as to when continued investment in a project is no longer worth it. There is no conspiracy and no one is actively trying to exploit any of us, at least beyond what advertising and marketing necessarily entails. And the Persona 5 streaming thing just comes down to cultural differences; Atlus are unequivocally wrong but that decision still isn't coming from a place of malice. Folks need to chill.
 
Those are all big releases that the publishers count on to release in certain periods and which consumers allow themselves to buy into the hype train for. We absolutely control whether these kinds of practices publishers get away with and if I'm a publisher overwhelming message I get outside of the occasional angry message board rant and rather based on sales and preorders is that consumers are absolutely cool with it.
 

Cmerrill

You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
Thinking of this issue, i'd like to recognize Horizon: Zero Dawn for a stellar launch. The version I covered for launch was basically version 1.0. No patches applied. While they have continued to update the game, the initial version was remarkably solid - a very well built game with little to no problems. It's the kind of game where you could own the disc and not worry about the inability to access future patches.

Hear, hear.
 

Gator86

Member
Thinking of this issue, i'd like to recognize Horizon: Zero Dawn for a stellar launch. The version I covered for launch was basically version 1.0. No patches applied. While they have continued to update the game, the initial version was remarkably solid - a very well built game with little to no problems. It's the kind of game where you could own the disc and not worry about the inability to access future patches.

Horizon is a goddamn masterpiece. 60 hours of open world amazing and I got one minor bug. One!
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
Between No Man's Sky, Street Fighter V, Final Fantasy XV, Mass Effect Andromeda and now maybe Persona 5 of all things, this is now officially a trend that publishers are taking with their games. I now think it is the single worst thing to happen to videogames.

I realize this is a trend in console gaming now, but this is more just that the downsides of PC gaming come along with the upsides of PC gaming as consoles turn into PCs.

Like the good end of this is you can get amazing service updates that make a great game even better. The downside is that you can also ship a largely broken or very troubled product and patch your way to launch quality.

The upside is that these patches tend to come faster these days, and you don't have to wait in line at FilePlanet to get them. A lot of developers will also try to go the extra mile after fixing the game to make it better than it would have been if they just delayed an extra month or two.

My recommendation would be not buying games at launch and enjoying the best versions for much cheaper 6 or so months later.
 

Bronetta

Ask me about the moon landing or the temperature at which jet fuel burns. You may be surprised at what you learn.
I read the first paragraph and let me stop you right there.

Persona 5 is as complete a game you'll ever get. They arent going to add anymore to it, theres the free JP audio. Heck the game doesnt even have any patches, how can you claim its unfinished?

WHAT THE FUCK!? *triggered*
 
Games cost a ton of money to make and their price has effectively gone down rather sharply in the last decade. If we're getting consistently unfinished games, that's coming from budget constraints which are our fault for insisting that the base price of games can't be more than $60. Everyone is just trying to survive in this market, which frequently involves making hard decisions as to when continued investment in a project is no longer worth it. There is no conspiracy and no one is actively trying to exploit any of us, at least beyond what advertising and marketing necessarily entails. And the Persona 5 streaming thing just comes down to cultural differences; Atlus are unequivocally wrong but that decision still isn't coming from a place of malice. Folks need to chill.

It is not at all the customer's fault. The customer doesn't have any control over how a company making a game handles the financial end of development.

Plenty of developers budget accordingly to their price point and put out a quality product for the asking price.
 

SOLDIER

Member
If your going to list P5 for issues like that, you might as well list stuff like BotW for performance issues that got pretty much fixed in a patch month later.

Optimization issues/bugs aren't nearly as egregious as "We are literally going cheap in this aspect".

According to the other thread, the problems with P5's localization is that some of the major localizers of previous Atlus games no longer work with the company, as well as the Japan side of the company strong-arming their confounding practices into the game (such as the pronounciation of Sakamoto).
 

icespide

Banned
there's a good discussion to be had here but mentioning Persona 5 in your argument distracts from it because its ridiculous
 

Murdamonk

Member
I mostly agree with OP, except with P5. I don't really see anything wrong with the localization. And as for the streaming, it is not a bug, the developer choose to not allow it.
 

Modoru

Member
Where I'm from, we have a saying: "mejor pedir perdon que permiso"
in english, "better to apologize than ask for permission"

p. much it contextualizes people's shitty behaviour to assume that they can do whatever they feel like as long as they apologize later than have to do the right thing

if people keep preordering and giving companies money for these products, what can you expect?

that said, it's also due to AAA companies having rly bad management in terms of deadlines, scope, etc.
 
Wait, what patches is Persona 5 getting? NO SPOILERS.
None.

OP torpedoed his own thread there, but I see what he's getting at with the other games.

If you're not going to have reasonable review embargo dates, I'm not playing your game. I didn't spend $60 to beta test your shoddy work.
 

Bronetta

Ask me about the moon landing or the temperature at which jet fuel burns. You may be surprised at what you learn.
Optimization issues/bugs aren't nearly as egregious as "We are literally going cheap in this aspect".

According to the other thread, the problems with P5's localization is that some of the major localizers of previous Atlus games no longer work with the company, as well as the Japan side of the company strong-arming their confounding practices into the game (such as the pronounciation of Sakamoto).

Have you played the game yourself? Im several hours in and theres nothing wrong with the localization.


Cherry picking quotes out of context doesnt mean the localization is busted.
 
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