You are letting ESB and ROTJ cloud your vision.
In 1977 the Empire WAS the Death Star. That was the entirety of the Empire. It was assumed the Rebels won and the Empire was defeated completely at the end of ANH.
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Star Wars: The Last Jedi Official Teaser
- Thread starter FelipeMGM
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You are letting ESB and ROTJ cloud your vision.
In 1977 the Empire WAS the Death Star. That was the entirety of the Empire. It was assumed the Rebels won and the Empire was defeated completely at the end of ANH.
brandonh83
Banned
It was definitive because at the time they had no idea what the reception would be. So you can argue that it was solid closure, but with Vader surviving it was just some forward-thinking for Lucas just in case.
I was really disappointed when this part in TFA happened off-screen. smh
You fucked up, Disney.
It was never meant for the movie, Kylo never had his hood in that scene.
Killer Queen
Banned
With or without emotion, it's still an act of morality, it's the right thing to do, which takes precedence over whether or not its based out of emotion, and again, none of that was established in the OT, it's prequel stuff and what's considered to be irrelevant.
Why wouldn't he know she was born? It's not about knowing where she is, its about knowing that she exists. Yoda and Obi Wan could sense when someone existed. They sensed when Darth Maul resurfaced, despite not knowing where he was. If Luke had a child, he would know that they exist, the fact of the matter is, he didn't, and its pretty much established that Luke is one of the most powerful Jedi out there. If Yoda and Obi Wan could do those things, there's no reason Luke couldn't.
Leia isn't sensing Han Solo, you're completely misinterpreting this just to support your argument.
So taking into account two things.
-Leia is a force sensitive
-In Aftermath it's established that Leia can sense Snoke influencing Kylo Ren in the womb
Clearly she's profficient enough in the force to notice subtleties like that. So do you really think that Rey came face to face with Leia and Leia didn't know they were related? "Sorry officer, despite me being entirely literate, having great eyesight and looking directly at the stop sign, I just didn't see it". Yeah sorry, that's pretty bullshit no matter how you spin it.
Now understanding that Kylo Ren is far more powerful than Rey, and was actually inside her mind, do you not think that creating that kind of connection through the force would notify him that they're related? this even before bringing Luke into the equation.
And if Leia can sense Snoke influencing Kylo Ren while he's in her womb, from great distances. Why the fuck wouldn't Luke, someone far more powerful than Leia know if he does or doesn't have a daughter? I doubt Leia is checking every minute going "Wonder who's force influencing my baby now!" No, you can feel a disturbance in the force. Luke having a child would create a disturbance in the force.
Make any roundabout arguments you want. But any way you frame the picture it's still ridiculous considering everything that's established, and not only established but established in the current canon without having to go back into the OT and look for things that have since been changed, added or retconned.
Some extras from Aftermath.
From TFA novelization.
This is still the best for me. Seeing this at 6 years old, in 1977, on the largest screen on the West Coast was life changing for me. We had never seen anything like this before this came out.
This is probably the #1 answer. I hear this same thing from people who know nothing about Star Wars.
They did leave open ended story elements in ANH, to be fair. Vader's ship is not only not destroyed, but they show him heading out into space after the Death Star blows up, establishing he's still out there. The Emperor is still in the picture. Etc.
But to your point, Lucas fashioned Star Wars as taking place in the middle of a serial of stories - it's been ongoing, and will keep going. (Even before the re-branding as Episode IV, there's ample history in ANH.) There was no more reason to think that, when the credits rolled, we'd get either a sequel or a prequel.
The "open ended" nature of it was an homage to the serial adventures Star Wars was rooted in, not ambitions for a franchise. That's what came later with Empire.
brandonh83
Banned
They need to stop doing this shit. I can understand trailers having deleted scenes, scenes that are still in the movie when the trailer was made but cut by the time of the final edit but throwing in stuff absolutely knowing it won't be in the movie is dumb. Just like the TIE fighter rising before Jyn on the catwalk on Scarif. That hyped me up so much because it looked awesome and then you start to daydream about how something that crazy could play out.
Huh? No. In ANH they make it pretty clear that the Empire is way more than the Death Star. The Emperor and the Senate are mentioned (the later of which is dissolved) which lets us know that the Imperial Government exists and isn't even on the Death Star. Tarkin's line about "the regional governors now have direct control over their territories" tells us that there are seemingly tons of planets under Imperial control. There's also a couple of references to the Imperial Fleet. A New Hope does plenty to convey to the audience that the Empire is way more than just the Death Star.
Hell, to most of the protagonists in the story they fear the Empire before even knowing the Death Star exists - which goes to show you how big the Empire is.
Plus, the movie explicitly shows Vader flying off and into space after the Death Star is gone plus the sub plot of Vader killing Luke's father goes completely unresolved. Which is a pretty big loose end to leave open.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
No, Luke is a Jedi, like his father before him. The Jedi Order isn't everything.
Eh the Rogue One shot maybe but I'm not bothered by the TFA teaser shots. There's nothing at all misleading story-wise about the one with Kylo, it just spoils less. It was just an introduction to the new characters.
Actual best moment in Star Wars
Just incredible.
You think? For me it is another one of those logic issues that clash with what had been established in the OT, of which those new movies seem to have a little too many of.
It makes his entrance in ANH which WAS iconic, feel a bit like he is the biggest dick in the galaxy. I mean he could singlehandedly destroy those Blockade Runner troopers all by himself (as seen in Rogue One) but lets a squad of Stormtroopers run in first, get themselves killed, while he is waiting patiently in the background.
Now you could argue he has no regard for those fellow troopers (which goes contrary to his characterization in Ep3 Opening Battle), or he suddenly found a moment of relaxation between being super pissed of and eager to get those plans back in Rogue One and then moments later before the Blockade Runner boarding.
It shows a badass moment, without really caring what has been established before.
Same as with those X-Wings destroying AT-ATs (or AT-AcTs or whatever they were called) left and right with blaster fire during Rogue One end battle when Luke pointed out during Battle of Hoth that those things are too heavily armored for blaster fire.
I feel like the more the universe is expanded by what are basically really talented fans, the more it is prone to all these flaws in logic and world building. I wish it weren't so..
After someone made the analogy to Luke potentially being the Martin Luther to the Jedi's Catholicism, I think this might end up being the case. Luke goes on a big journey discovering the past of the Jedi order and comes to the realization that the Jedi of old were fucking idiots. I don't think Luke necessarily wants to end the Jedi, but rather reinvent them.
Alternatively, Vader is an older, weaker man in ANH who maybe can't sustain that level of continuous action anymore. See how relatively quickly he's overwhelmed by Luke in ROTJ.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
"the evil Galactic Empire"
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Yeah, the Vader getting away bit was as close to an overt "maybe we'll get a sequel" dangling story-beat thing as that movie gets.
Decades of Lucas' bullshitting about having a whole plan laid out (it's very obvious now that he never did, example A being Vader as Anakin Skywalker) has lent credence to the idea that Star Wars was always much more open-ended than it really was. That combined with decades of people's conception of Star Wars not really being a single movie, but a trilogy (and now two trilogies) sorta dulls Empire's kicking over Star Wars' sandcastle so thoroughly.
The bolded is a really good way of putting it.
1) Whether or not it ruins his ANH intro is subjective so nothing to say there.
2) He could single highhandedly destroy the entire ship, this is cannon.
3) The only times he uses storm troopers/others is when he wants people captured alive, which is exactly what he wanted here.
4) Neither he nor the Emperor care about the lives of officers, stormtroopers or even the red guard. This is cannon.
5) AT-ACTs are very different from AT-ATs. Just cargo haulers.
Really?! He got older in like 10 minutes? What did he do in those 10 minutes? Or are you saying he got exhausted from all the fanservice badassery at the end of Rogue One? Didn't look like he was exhausted to me.
Yep.
A New Hope does enough world building to make the resolution of the story feel open ended enough for a follow up movie. Lucas very clearly didn't have a defined plan laid out but he left enough sequel hooks in place if the movie ended up being a hit. Return of the Jedi, in comparison, doesn't really have those hooks. But, Episodes 7-9 existing don't really damage ROTJ's ending at all.
Inferno313
Banned
The real answer to the Vader thing is that Star Wars is a movie made in 1977 and Rogue One is a movie made in 2016, and effects/sensibilities are going to be different and that's ok.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
He's such a better character for it than I expected though.
He's brave (heroic!), but not perfect. Tries hard, gets beaten down. He tries with everything he's got to 110% protect Rey when she's thrown down, and... fails. I really want to see what's next for him.
His origin, too. I have young kids (4yo & 2yo), and when I explained the setup - "he's a badguy because that's what he was told to be but he doesn't WANT to be a badguy and he's deciding to NOT be" - the look on their faces made me want to cry. It's powerful. Something resonated and it's come up with them since.
Anyhow. Um. I like this movie.
The Empire still exists after the Death Star goes boom. How many different ways do I need to explain that A New Hope makes it perfectly clear that the Empire =! The Death Star.
Also, Vader is a pretty big loose end on his own right.
Are you saying he should move around like a loaf in 2016 because of limitations in choreography in the 70s?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Yeah, I've heard stories like this from other people, too. Finn does hit people in their chest.
No shit
brandonh83
Banned
I'm not really bothered by it but the Rogue One thing... a little bit.
Inferno313
Banned
You don't actually know that at the end of Star Wars though. You know that because the opening of Empire tells you.
Vyse The Legend
Member
An Empire still exists after you kill the leader. There's just a power vacuum, and it makes sense you get factions and other people trying to claim the throne.
brandonh83
Banned
Bobby Roberts
Banned
No. We're misunderstanding him. Not the other way around. Obviously.
Anyway, shit is dead.
ANH references the Emperor, he was presumably not onboard the Death Star when it exploded in the first film. It follows that as long as the Emperor lives, and Darth Vader got away, the Empire is still a thing.
JonnyDBrit
Member
It's a tragic backstory that's nevertheless coated in eventual optimism. Hell, I remember people being conflicted over Rey getting the lightsaber because they felt it was a slapdown on Finn's most obvious story arc.
You are remembering the movie just fine. There is no emotional weight to their relationship.
Vyse The Legend
Member
Again, even killing an Emperor does not automatically defeat an entire Empire. It's not like all the Stormtroopers were like "welp, the Emperor is dead; time to go home" at the end of ROTJ.
Sure you can always handwave that stuff with "those were the blue X-Wings with the green torpedoes, not the red ones with the golden ones"
But visually and for their intents in the plot they are essentially the same thing.
Those AT-ACTS also have cannons to fire at our squad of heroes, they tower menacingly, so why give up what they had established in ESB Hoth battle?
Those AT-ATs in ESB Hoth battle also carried troop batallions and were transports.
And in ROGUE ONE even a dude with a handcannon was shooting at AT-ACT legs and disintegrated them.
It smelled a bit like they just went with more of the TFA "Rebels fly X-Wings, bad guys have TIE Fighters" attitude and had those X-Wings attack the AT-ACTs.
The explanation of "wait a minute, this clashes with ESB was probably done by someone a bit more nerdy than the actual filmmaker after the fact, like people from the story group that try to keep the universe coherent.
Maybe I'm selling the decision makers short and they really had some thoughts about how to alternatively destroy the towering AT-ACT threats and played with the idea of having them call in fire support from orbiting capships. But then the all encompassing energy shield clashed with that idea, as it did with how DS1 and DS2 construction site were protected tbh.
At least you're finally starting to come to terms with facts for once
<3 u bobby
DiipuSurotu
Banned
ANH left three things unresolved:
- The villains
- The main antagonist
- The love triangle
Inferno313
Banned
I mean sure, but there is a finality in how Star Wars presents the victory at Yavin IV. IF a sequel to Star Wars had never been made, then that ending would serve as a totally sufficient ending and you'd think: "Sweet, they defeated the evil Empire at the end."
Heck, I imagine a large part of why The Empire Strikes Back is called The Empire Strikes Back is to easily and immediately communicate to the audience: "the Empire is still a threat". Since that's not necessarily clear at the end of Star Wars, if taken at face value.
That's partially my point, even if he was dead, the remnants would still be around. He's not dead, the Empire lost their superweapon at the end of the movie, and thats it. I don't understand anyone who feels they needed the opening crawl of Empire to establish that the Empire is still an entity.
Don't think Lucas was all like "I wish I could have Vader single handedly wipe out that whole Blockade Runner but the costume and my lack of a stunt choreographer is preventing me from staging it, so I will have a bunch of Stormtroopers rush in first cause their costumes aren't as clumsy"
It might have been done to show hierarchy, it could be that Vader came late to the party because he was elsewhere, it could be that this is not really a particular important mission for him, but all those explanations don't work anymore with that ROGUE ONE scene right before it.
To me the ROGUE ONE scene is like a typical "need to have a nice WOW moment for the last reel, so people leave the cinema thinking this movie ruled" thing that was added after reshoots/in post. Admittely it was nice to look at, but it resides only one rung higher on the "fix the movie in post" ladder than those extravagant CG credits sequences with loud music that play at the end of lackluster blockbusters to try and sway the word of mouth on exit slightly more to the positive.
And imo it was at the expense of the opening scene in ANH, using that for obvious framing similarities and nostalgia button pushing, but harming that scene more than it compliments it.
Sorry, you've really lost me. Nobody is hand-waiving anything or making anything up. This is all fleshed out in numerous officially sanctioned/cannon star wars books.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Nerds ruin everything
Any try at a more lengthy counter opinion than calling me a nerd?
First of all, thanks for including the excerpt from Aftermath, I've never read that before.
The elements from the PT, especially the Jedi, are canon. Why are you saying they're irrelevant? The Jedi Order symbol, which (I believe) was first established in the prequels, is smack dab in the middle of the TLJ trailer. Of course it's relevant!
Just because it worked out for Luke doesn't mean he didn't break the Jedi code. Again, be blatantly defied his masters and went against their commands. They told him not to go because it's a trap, and because the empire is playing on his emotions. They were right. Luke was lucky enough to venture into that trap and not fuck everything up. Which is why I'm saying he's as far from the old Jedi as you can get; the vast majority of them would have obeyed their masters and followed the code and their teachings. Luke redefined what it means to be a Jedi and largely listened to his own instincts.
As far as I know, only the Emperor (and Yoda) sensed someone specifically via the force who he was unaware of before. In ESB, he senses that the offspring of Skywalker cannot become a Jedi. And the only reason he was able to sense this was because of Luke's ability to destroy the Death Star, said in the dialogue.
Who else has done this?
Leia DID sense Han, she felt him die. She did this through the force.
I will respond to your Leia book quotes when I get home and finish the rest of my post (ran outta time).
Bobby Roberts
Banned
It doesn't matter though. Even without R1, we know Vader can mow down rebel soldiers like no big thing, but he let the troopers handle it in the beginning of ANH anyway. The apparent inconsistency you see still remains.
Super Nerd
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