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PoliGAF 2017 |OT3| 13 Treasons Why

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J

jtb

Banned
People fly confederate flags in West Virginia?

Isn't the whole point of West Virginia... that it didn't secede with regular ol' Virginia?
 
K

kirblar

Member
jtb said:
People fly confederate flags in West Virginia?

Isn't the whole point of West Virginia... that it didn't secede with regular ol' Virginia?
Click to expand...
Here's an article that looks at WV through the super-whitebread stereotypical "class-based" Bernie supporter lens which completely ignores what they're seeing and hearing in favor of a rosy narrative they like... and then which gets immediately called out by the first comment at the bottom: http://fusion.kinja.com/how-west-virginia-lost-the-workers-revolution-1794801462
As someone who gave living in West Virginia a try (I'm originally from California, lived in WV for about two years, then moved back to CA) there were some good points to this article, but I think you really underplay the role of racism/sexism in Donald Trump's election there. When I was living in WV, I routinely heard people use the N-word, I heard the statement ”all Muslims should be killed" on several occasions, and was constantly questioned why—as a woman in her 20's—I wasn't married yet. As a white woman, folks often felt it was ”safe" to say terribly racist things in front of me and they were constantly surprised when I'd call them out. Sure, there may have been some integration in the early 20th century, but modern day West Virginians can be incredibly racist. Did you happen to see all of the confederate flags people have in their front yards or the confederate memorial statues in the small towns (even though WV was a union state?).

I'm surprised that you also didn't bring up the politics surrounding the Governor, Jim Justice, in the article. Governor Justice is the richest man in the state (got his money from coal) and recently switched from the Republican Party to the Democratic party in order to be elected Governor. I'm also kinda surprised (ok, not really) that you didn't bring up the fact that 39% of the people who voted for Sanders in the WV primary said that they would also vote for Trump over Sanders in the GE (http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/201...rs-boost-bernie-sanders-west-virginia-n571791). The truth is, Sanders' form of populism isn't going to appeal to most West Virginians any time soon, many of the voters supported Trump BECAUSE of the racist rhetoric, not in spite of it. There are not many who would openly support a non-Christian socialist.

Also, you misrepresented Beckley in the article. The coal mine exhibit is one part of the city that tourists can see, the whole city is not ”a picturesque tourist attraction, a sort of Disney version of coal mining life." Beckley is one of the larger towns in West Virginia and has a Starbucks, Ulta, Olive Garden, and airport. Did you even see the rest of Beckley? Romanticizing the coal towns is disingenuous and not accurate to the realities of the state today.
Click to expand...
 
S

SatelliteOfLove

Member
Odd debate angles here with the headlines we got.

mo60 said:
I really hate how some right wing politicians were I live are openly supporting trump's exit for the Paris Accord.
Click to expand...

Which we kinda weren't in and wont kinda not be in till after the next prez election.

Phantom fears, phantom victories: The New NeoGOP Way!

Nazgul_Hunter said:
Wolf Blitzer just called Gary Cohn a Globalist to his face. Lol.
Click to expand...

Meanwhile, after Trump, CNN got saucy.

TestOfTide said:
One thing that I think the democrats DID do right last year was become the party of a new, diverse kind of patriotism.
Click to expand...

It's going to be a things with Dems as that party has for the last few decades been at arms-length with flag-waving, military, and the like that is a big core of American patriotism. Like with how the GOP largely let the Dems control the advancement of social issue legislation and rulings, Dems just let the GOP have it. I don't know what kind it could be with the left's love of shared leadership with the world and so many disenfranchised minorities (who have some reasons to be cooler to exuberant patriotism) under that umbrella.

ivajz said:
Man, Dana Rohrabacher talks like he's got sacks of rubles in his mouth.
Click to expand...

Fixed that for ya.
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
kirblar said:
Uh... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia#Separation_from_Virginia

(This is what makes the flags such a good example of not actually being about "Southern pride" or whatever nonsense they shit out of their mouths)
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One of the principle arguments against slavery was that it put decent while people at odds with cheap black labor. You can read this in Lincoln's debates against Douglass. Hell, West Virginia had Jim Crow laws until 1994 (!). You want some more proof? West Virginia has like the highest density of Google searches for the n-word in the country.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.citylab.com/amp/article/392168/
 
R

Ryuuroden

Member
TestOfTide said:
I asked you before, so I'm gonna ask you again:

Show me evidence that Joe Manchin types are causing lower turnout in the other 49 states.

Like, if it were LITERALLY any other state besides West Virginia or Oklahoma, I would get your beef, but unless you can prove to me that West Virginia democrats like Manchin cause Democrats in swing states to be less likely to turnout, I don't see the point of being so focussed on kicking Manchin out.
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Pretty much my stance on the whole thing. Prove to me that hes causing issues in the other states. As for me, Re-electing Sherrod Brown and getting rid of Rob Portman is more pressing and something I can actually influence. As long as Dem's get elected from West Virginia and as long as they are not the actual movers of the party if they are distasteful individuals then I prefer them over a Republican. There are also less Blacks in West Virginia then in the entire workforce that is employed in coal mining in the entire country so there really is not much for him to be racist against. WV is 98% White. Yes, I am being slightly flippant but that's because I don't really think Manchin is that bad when I do know the type of Republicans that could represent that state and would have a much more hands on involved investment in racism and repression.
 
K

kirblar

Member
SatelliteOfLove said:
It's going to be a things with Dems as that party has for the last few decades been at arms-length with flag-waving, military, and the like that is a big core of American patriotism. Like with how the GOP largely let the Dems control the advancement of social issue legislation and rulings, Dems just let the GOP have it. I don't know what kind it could be with the left's love of shared leadership with the world and so many disenfranchised minorities (who have some reasons to be cooler to exuberant patriotism) under that umbrella.
Click to expand...
It wasn't so much that the GOP let the Dems have it so much as the far left were such massively toxic pieces of shit towards our armed forces in the '70s after Vietnam that they completely conceded a generation on that front and it took Bush and Iraq to even start a turnaround.

It's not an accident that only with the '80s kids and youngest Gen Xers that we're starting to heavily recruit from former servicemembers. And unfortunately, we still have to drown out these people at our conventions.
 
O

Ogodei

Member
pigeon said:
The Democratic Party: We Oppose White Supremacy and Climate Change Unless Supporting It Would Be Politically Expedient.

Good luck with that turnout problem, guys!
Click to expand...

That's only the issue in West Virginia. Nobody's running Manchin for President.
 
T

TestOfTide

Banned
kirblar said:
It wasn't so much that the GOP let the Dems have it so much as the far left were such massively toxic pieces of shit towards our armed forces in the '70s after Vietnam that they completely conceded a generation on that front and it took Bush and Iraq to even start a turnaround.

It's not an accident that only with the '80s kids and youngest Gen Xers that we're starting to heavily recruit from former servicemembers. And unfortunately, we still have to drown out these people at our conventions.
Click to expand...

Luckily I imagine that a lot of IC types are now becoming democrats too. :)
 
A

Autodidact

Banned
kirblar said:
It wasn't so much that the GOP let the Dems have it so much as the far left were such massively toxic pieces of shit towards our armed forces in the '70s after Vietnam that they completely conceded a generation.

It's not an accident that only with the '80s kids and youngest Gen Xers that we're starting to heavily recruit from former servicemembers.
Click to expand...

Yep. I saw an argument once (can't remember where) that our glorification of the military and soldiers is an attempt to atone for our collective guilt at being so shitty to them after Vietnam. The GOP capitalized upon that sentiment and became the party of the armed forces.

Of course, they'll disrespect soldiers if it helps them (hello, John Kerry!).
 
P

pigeon

Banned
ArkhamFantasy said:
I'll ask again since you conveniently ignored me.


So there's no excuse for his progressive primary candidate to lose right?
Click to expand...

Why would this be true? There are lots of white supremacists in West Virginia. Of course his progressive primary candidate might lose.

TestOfTide said:
I asked you before, so I'm gonna ask you again:

Show me evidence that Joe Manchin types are causing lower turnout in the other 49 states.

Like, if it were LITERALLY any other state besides West Virginia or Oklahoma, I would get your beef, but unless you can prove to me that West Virginia democrats like Manchin cause Democrats in swing states to be less likely to turnout, I don't see the point of being so focussed on kicking Manchin out.
Click to expand...

This is not the burden of proof being laid on the people saying that opposing Manchin is guaranteed to put a Republican in office and that that Republican is guaranteed to be significantly worse than Manchin.

Personally, I want Manchin out because I think white supremacy is actually bad.

Since this argument does not move many people around here for some reason, I expanded it to suggest that doing bad things might be bad for the party.

If you don't believe that's true, you do you, I guess!

Today, in the US Senate, there is bipartisan agreement that appointing a white supremacist attorney general is a good idea and that pulling out of the Paris climate accords is great. If you don't think that can possibly have political ramifications, I guess that's good to know.
 
F

Futurevoid

Member
Trump team began secret effort to lift Russian sanctions. Obama admin officials worked to stop it with Congress members.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-ad...se-russia-sanctions-fell-short-231301145.html

In the early weeks of the Trump administration, former Obama administration officials and State Department staffers fought an intense, behind-the-scenes battle to head off efforts by incoming officials to normalize relations with Russia, according to multiple sources familiar with the events.

Unknown to the public at the time, top Trump administration officials, almost as soon as they took office, tasked State Department staffers with developing proposals for the lifting of economic sanctions, the return of diplomatic compounds and other steps to relieve tensions with Moscow.

These efforts to relax or remove punitive measures imposed by President Obama in retaliation for Russia's intervention in Ukraine and meddling in the 2016 election alarmed some State Department officials, who immediately began lobbying congressional leaders to quickly pass legislation to block the move, the sources said.

”There was serious consideration by the White House to unilaterally rescind the sanctions," said Dan Fried, a veteran State Department official who served as chief U.S. coordinator for sanctions policy until he retired in late February. He said in the first few weeks of the administration, he received several ”panicky" calls from U.S. government officials who told him they had been directed to develop a sanctions-lifting package and imploring him, ”Please, my God, can't you stop this?"
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J

jtb

Banned
Yeah, Manchin should not have voted for Sessions. That was dumb. I would've gone for the "Sessions will criminalize drug use and make the opioid epidemic worse" angle. But he's gotta pad those ~both sides~ stats I guess.

I also blame Schumer for not whipping those cabinet/SCOTUS votes.
 
K

kirblar

Member
jtb said:
Yeah, Manchin should not have voted for Sessions. That was dumb. I would've gone for the "Sessions will criminalize drug use and make the opioid epidemic worse" angle. But he's gotta pad those ~both sides~ stats I guess.

I also blame Schumer for not whipping those cabinet/SCOTUS votes.
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There's a certain individual who heavily benefited from Schumer not doing that though! :p
 
T

TestOfTide

Banned
pigeon said:
This is not the burden of proof being laid on the people saying that opposing Manchin is guaranteed to put a Republican in office and that that Republican is guaranteed to be significantly worse than Manchin.
Click to expand...

YOU were the one who implicitly argued that people like Joe Manchin are the reason the Democrats had low turnout. I'm calling that argument out. If you don't have proof for that argument then just admit it.

Personally, I want Manchin out because I think white supremacy is actually bad.
Click to expand...

Ok. But as I told you before I don't even have to bring up a hypothetical about some other democrat running for his seat in the general because I know that he will probably easily win the primaries every time.

The problem isn't Manchin. The problem is that West Virginia is a piece of shit inhabited by white racists who would rather cling to their useless coal jobs and blame all their problems on minorities than actually come join the 21st century.

Since this argument does not move many people around here for some reason, I expanded it to suggest that doing bad things might be bad for the party.

If you don't believe that's true, you do you, I guess!
Click to expand...

I didn't say that I 100% don't believe you so much as I asked for proof. I even said that if you did provide proof I would sign on to what you were saying and I meant it.

Today, in the US Senate, there is bipartisan agreement that appointing a white supremacist attorney general is a good idea and that pulling out of the Paris climate accords is great. If you don't think that can possibly have political ramifications, I guess that's good to know.
Click to expand...

First off, there is also bipartisan agreement that pulling out of the Paris climate accords is bad according to your logic (Since we know Collins spoke out against the decision).

Second, bipartisanship hasn't mattered since 2008. Claiming that bipartisanship matters is just something that republicans like to use when it's convenient for them. There is bipartisan support for making the 2014 Russian sanctions into congressional law, yet McConnell and Ryan refuse to put it up to a vote. The investigations into Trump's ties to Russia have been done by both democrats and republicans in the IC and FBI, yet no one likes to bring that up.

Bipartisanship is just a buzzword used for optics, but we know that these days optics aren't what they used to be.
 
A

Autodidact

Banned
Man, if Ossoff loses even with all this recent GOP and Trump fuckery, I'll be disappointed. Not in him, because he's run an exemplary campaign, but in this country.
 
Y

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Trumps not even doing any good shit. No bank deregulation. No tax cuts. Just nasty shit like treason and condemning low laying poors. Ugh.

I feel like the shinra president watching as sector 7 collapses and I don't even have classical music playing
 
P

pigeon

Banned
TestOfTide said:
YOU were the one who implicitly argued that people like Joe Manchin are the reason the Democrats had low turnout. I'm calling that argument out. If you don't have proof for that argument then just admit it.
Click to expand...

I'm stating that your request for proof for that argument is disingenuous! Nobody in this conversation is being held to that standard.

TestOfTide said:
Ok. But as I told you before I don't even have to bring up a hypothetical about some other democrat running for his seat in the general because I know that he will probably easily win the primaries every time.

The problem isn't Manchin. The problem is that West Virginia is a piece of shit inhabited by white racists who would rather cling to their useless coal jobs and blame all their problems on minorities than actually come join the 21st century.
Click to expand...

When we choose to say those people are fine and deserve a place in the Democratic Party, it becomes our problem.

TestOfTide said:
Second, bipartisanship hasn't mattered since 2008. Claiming that bipartisanship matters is just something that republicans like to use when it's convenient for them. There is bipartisan support for making the 2014 Russian sanctions into congressional law, yet McConnell and Ryan refuse to put it up to a vote. The investigations into Trump's ties to Russia have been done by both democrats and republicans in the IC and FBI, yet no one likes to bring that up.

Bipartisanship is just a buzzword used for optics, but we know that these days optics aren't what they used to be.
Click to expand...

This is utterly idiotic. Bipartisanship is a signal to low-information voters that a position is okay. Bipartisanship serves to normalize positions in the American discourse. There is a reason why McConnell cares so much about bipartisanship.

I strongly believe that as the Democrats move closer to condoning white supremacy it continues to normalize it further and put people of color in further danger in America. This is not that concerning for some people maybe! But it is something I worry about.
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
B-Dubs said:
Gonna be a bit of a race to see if NY or CA can do it first.
Click to expand...

pls NY

My parents need better healthcare than the garbage they have now. A high deductible plan is no plan for a family of four, with two of the people being in their 50s. They hardly ever go to the doctor.

I could also use the extra 150 dollars a month, even if comparably that's not really a lot for insurance. My work picks up 75%, so I'm sure they'd appreciate the extra 450 dollars a month.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
balladofwindfishes said:
pls NY

My parents need better healthcare than the garbage they have now. A high deductible plan is no plan for a family of four, with two of the people being in their 50s. They hardly ever go to the doctor.

I could also use the extra 150 dollars a month, even if comparably that's not really a lot for insurance. My work picks up 75%, so I'm sure they'd appreciate the extra 450 dollars a month.
Click to expand...

Probably not until after the next election though.
 
J

JP_

Banned
Stumpokapow said:
Okay I'mma let you finish but that's a weird ass choropleth. It looks like the palette was going to be blue-white-red diverging (which is fine, although since there's no significance to the 50% threshold they probably want a sequential choropleth not a diverging choropleth) but then red is 80 and everything above 80 is goes from red to blue-purple, but of course nothing is over 80 on the map, and also nothing is below 50 on the scale, so basically the 50-75 range is doing all the action, which makes the palette pale yellow to orange sequential with an inexplicable legend scale displaying a bunch of impossible values ???

plz give globalist chinese hoax money to starving social scientist with interest in visualization.
Click to expand...

Only using a range that is represented in the data would basically be showing popularity relative to other states. The point of the graph is to show absolute popularity. If Alabama was represented with the most negative color, it would mislead people into thinking it was extremely unpopular there when, in reality, over 50% approve.

And I think there is significance to 50% -- a difference between 'generally blue' vs 'generally orange' tells you 'generally against' vs 'generally for' -- it's like 'lean blue' and 'lean red' in electoral maps.
 
T

TestOfTide

Banned
I don't want to waste time on the rest because I think these parts are where you are gonna run into some problems

pigeon said:
When we choose to say those people are fine and deserve a place in the Democratic Party, it becomes our problem.

I strongly believe that as the Democrats move closer to condoning white supremacy it continues to normalize it further and put people of color in further danger in America. This is not that concerning for some people maybe! But it is something I worry about.
Click to expand...

Ok so how do we kick Joe Manchin out of the Democratic Party exactly? It's not like Chuck Schumer has the ability to just take away any democratic senator's D-membership.

The only people who get to decide who represents West Virginia's Senate Seat as a democrat are the democratic voters of west Virginia. And unfortunately most of them are just racist piece of shit Dixiecrats who LOVE Trump's racism.
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
On a whole range of issues we need large blue states to set strong examples. It's Machiavellian but a sharp divide between red and blue standards of living can push close states over the edge. If I'm sitting in Arizona and a nearby state pulled off a massive successful agenda compared to what my red governor/senator/etc... have been suggesting, then I'm going to start thinking about voting that way.

We don't even need permanent affiliation. If we get a ton of the country to adopt certain programs or systems, they won't want to give them up once they have them.

Edit: thought I hit quote but this is referring to CA health care.
 
J

Joe

Member
https://twitter.com/JenniferJJacobs/status/870226056636248064

How many times did Trump's aircraft fly to Russia? Zero, the records say. Not even in Nov 2013, when he was there for Miss Universe pageant.

Qvd7cIel.jpg
 
N

Nelo Ice

Banned
AntraxSuicide said:
On a whole range of issues we need large blue states to set strong examples. It's Machiavellian but a sharp divide between red and blue standards of living can push close states over the edge. If I'm sitting in Arizona and a nearby state pulled off a massive successful agenda compared to what my red governor/senator/etc... have been suggesting, then I'm going to start thinking about voting that way.

We don't even need permanent affiliation. If we get a ton of the country to adopt certain programs or systems, they won't want to give them up once they have them.
Click to expand...
Sounds feasible. Like the ACA backlash costing us seats and now the vast majority of the country wants to keep it now. Yeah here's to hoping CA gets single payer down. I'll definitely be pressuring my assembly man to pass it.
 
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