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Sony's Jim Ryan comments on backwards compatibility: "why would anybody play this?"

Melchiah

Member
It wouldn't lead to anything as bc was only available to some models, had varying implementations with varying quality and initially was sold with an overpriced console.

I'd wager the percentage of use would actually be higher among the early adopters. The partially backwards compatible units were still available in 2008, but I don't know for how long. The partial BC model worked relatively well with most of the handful of games I tried. Only SSX crashed on it, and SH3 had some bugs in the cutscenes. Considering that the PS3 sold globally faster than the 360 with launches aligned, I think we would have large enough userbase to see if it was actually of use to many.


EDIT:
Yep.

I think people are projecting their own opinions about the value of BC onto Jim's comments, and the thread title isn't helping.

Jim's is clearly speaking speaking specifically about old GT games and not at all making a value assessment about ALL BC games in general.

I think it would help people to recognize this so as to avoid unnecessary outrage.

Agreed. I don't see how that comment could be interpreted as arrogance.
 
Where does he actually say that? He questions why anyone would want to play old games in the same racing series over the new ones, and that the backwards compatibility wasn't supposedly used much before.

And he was speaking of a event he went to and how Ps1 and PS2 GT were not played but PS3 GT and GTS were.

Boy... if only they read the article
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
The problem is, gamers really just want to be boring. They want things to be how they've always been. Playstation is the most boring, generic, uninspiring platform on the market, and so it's the most successful. Titanfall is epic sci-fi action, but people want boring, grounded modern military stuff. People like the mundane.

What Microsoft needs to do is figure out how to deliver the mundane, then offer iterative features that excite and delight. And I think backwards compatibility has done that. Oh, sure, plenty of consoles have HAD backwards compatibility before, but Xbox One backwards compatibility is digital, and that's where it really shines. You can manage your X1 and 360 libraries together in a really smart way, and because they're dropping new games weekly, you can often sign in to find you've got new, free games.

I really wish Microsoft would quit the Xbox One branding scheme and make Scorpio Xbox 4, but I get that they want to make sure that generational shifts are fairly simultaneous to avoid a Dreamcast scenario. If they were really smart, they'd just ignore the concept of "console generation" entirely, and just go the PC route they've been hinting. Make everything always available on future iterations of the hardware, using Win32 or UWP. Then there's no such thing as backwards compatibility, and the idea of console generation becomes moot.

Man, that is a really pessimistic way to compare Sony to other console manufacturers... and I don't even think it's wrong. You could use that same sentence to compare Sony to Nintendo -- Nintendo always trying to do something new, often at the expense of the way things currently are, which makes developers and gamers not willing to hop on board. If all this has taught me anything it's that with console games you have to innovate in really small steps and never take away anything gamers and developers already have: Some new shoulder buttons here, an analog stick there, maybe take away cords, add online gaming, add a touch screen, but don't completely change the shape of the controller or the main control interface of the platform. Sony tends look at the other guys' innovations and evokes them after the market has accepted them. That safe approach though means Sony almost never really screws up. I turns PlayStation into just "the game console" which works. The only time Sony did screw up -- the PS3, was because it tried to innovate a bit too much and too quickly with Cell and Blu-Ray.
 

Turrican3

Member
I think people are projecting their own opinions about the value of BC onto Jim's comments, and the thread title isn't helping.

Jim's is clearly speaking speaking specifically about old GT games and not at all making a value assessment about ALL BC games in general.
Gran Turismo is one of the most respected Sony franchises; PS1 and, I'd say, especially PS2 versions are arguably among the best games the platforms has to offer on a technical level.

So to me it's very easy to see how people might interpret Jim Ryan implying that ALL BC games "look ancient" and so are not worth playing.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
Yeah, just saw those numbers.

It's kind of odd comparing those to the PC or mobile ecosystems. It's already been stated how nine of the 20 most popular games on Steam are at least 5 years old. I imagine there's a similar situation on mobile. If that's the case, I think it's because of Games-As-A-Service, which really has been the reality on PC for years. Games like DOTA, TF2, CS, ARK, or H1Z1 have already been getting content updates for years so they don't really "get old." (An aside: I actually don't think I've played a single 2017 PC game yet) The same situation is going to start happening on consoles which is why BC might become more important in the future. It's probably behind what happened with BLOPS2. When PS5 and the next Xbox come out people are still going to want to play GTA V, Read Dead 2, Destiny 2, and whatever other COD game. If there's no BC, publishers will probably just ship new versions of those games with save file transfers and a bunch of people will buy them again, but a lot would probably just keep their old consoles.

PSX cd format
PS2 dvd format
PS3 blu ray..

Come on boo

That was Ken's reasoning circa 2006, I even remember the E3 presentation, but didn't that BR drive add a lot to the cost of the PS3? I don't remember exactly how much of it was the drive and how much of it was the overall architecture. And you have to admit playing Blu-Ray movies didn't have the same effect as the PS2's DVD player.
 

chubigans

y'all should be ashamed
Only 1.6% of XB1 users played BC titles in that timeframe? That is absolutely insane. I never thought those numbers would be so low.
 
Gran Turismo is one of the most respected Sony franchises; PS1 and, I'd say, especially PS2 versions are arguably among the best games the platforms has to offer on a technical level.

So to me it's very easy to see how people might interpret Jim Ryan implying that ALL BC games "look ancient" and so are not worth playing.

At the time sure... but why would anyone want to go back and play GT1 and GT2 today?

I think that's Jim's point. Almost everything that makes GT1 and GT2 unique an excellent driving games back when they were first released has been updated and iterated upon in later entries.

Which is a completely different situation to something like MSG, for example, since to even have a hope in hell of understanding MGSV and MGS4's stories, you'd pretty much have to have gone back to play the original MGS1&2 games on PS1/PS2. Hence, Jim's context here... his comment only really makes sense in light of the fact that he's talking specifically about GT and games like that (e.g. racing games and sports games) which literally iterate on a foundational set of mechanics and features with each entry.

For games where there is no narrative continuity, who rely solely on graphics and a solid set of mechanics to drive the gameplay experience, if you've played the latest version, there really isn't much need nor desire to go back and play the very first in the series.

Jim could have just as easily have been speaking about Assassin's Creed 1 and he would be just as correct. On the other hand it still doesn't mean he'd projecting his opinion of the value of a single game series' legacy titles across all games.
 
I smell crow getting ready to be served. Arstechnica just published an article that backs up Ryan's remarks.

Article also quotes MS own number for first month with only 9m hours of BC play over what, approx 20m units at the time at launch. That's less than 30m per user.

Look having the option is nice and is a cool value add. But outside of the hardcore, is it really heavily used? Why are Arstechnica's numbers wrong? It certainly seems to fit the narrative even MS offered during launch.
 

Axiology

Member
...Because the benefit that it offers to players who want to play those old titles without digging out their old console will always make it worth it. The Wii being backwards compatible allowed a bunch of people to play Super Smash Bros Melee without having to dig out their Gamecube.

But beyond that I'll say that as a PC gamer having several generations of games on Steam is really amazing. A lot of the time I don't care that a game is last gen or even older. Some people don't mind old games.
 

meirl

Banned
He doesnt get the idea behind it.. its Not about playing lastgen game... Its about Creating a generation-less console Plattform.
 

Turrican3

Member
At the time sure... but why would anyone want to go back and play GT1 and GT2 today?
There's plenty of people that loves retrogaming despite the availability of objectively (?) more advanced games, in terms of pure gameplay and/or graphics and technology in general. It shouldn't really be *that* surprising... heck, we're just a mere months from the hugely successful launch of a NES retroconsole!

I'm sorry but that one by Mr. Ryan sounds like a very unfortunate statement to me, if not straight arrogant.
 
It's amazing and very telling how many people here would rather make excuses for Sony than advocate for a feature that lets them do more with their game library
 

Danielsan

Member
Ridiculous statement especially considering that Sony does sell PSone and PS2 games on PSN.
And for the record. I would buy a PS4 with PS1/PS2/PS3 BC in a heartbeat.
 
Excuses lol. Just the truth of the matter. I don't I've ever seen anyone say BC is bad.

Nope, it's excuses. It's not the truth, and it's sad seeing people desperately try to shill on his behalf or use a sample size from Ars Tech to try to act like what he said wasn't ignorant and asinine, and obviously a byproduct of sour grapes due to Microsoft's BC success.

And actually people have said BC was "useless" amongst other things.
 

Lemondish

Member
Ars: Don't read too deeply into the words Jim Ryan says

Nope, it's excuses. It's not the truth, and it's sad seeing people desperately try to shill on his behalf or use a sample size from Ars Tech to try to act like what he said wasn't ignorant and asinine, and obviously a byproduct of sour grapes due to Microsoft's BC success.

And actually people have said BC was "useless" amongst other things.

What he said was accurate, and I can't believe you, of all people, would imply that a million users is somehow an insufficient sample. I expected better.
 
Can't tell if PR , very out of touch or both.

If BC was there people would be over it specially for games like RDR and other gems from the past.


I known it is not the same but I have a dozen of those PS1 classics from the PS3 days just gathering dust. I would think they would at least bring those in, but no, fuck the consumer.
 
Ars: Don't read too deeply into the words Jim Ryan says



What he said was accurate, and I can't believe you, of all people, would imply that a million users is somehow an insufficient sample. I expected better.

Saying "why would anybody play this" in regards to older games is wrong on EVERY LEVEL. Some of the best games are on PS1 and PS2, PS3/360 notwithstanding. So, look at some indie games and how they try to recreate the SNES era, and how popular a lot of those are. Why would anyone play those? All those remasters coming out to get a quick buck? Why would anyone play those? I can go on and on...

Edit: Plus, he is trying to make us rebuy older games we ALREADY OWN, and forcing shitty PSNow down our throats when BC is infinitely better. Why would anybody play those older games? But please buy those overpriced older games you already paid for!
 

KageMaru

Member
Ars: Don't read too deeply into the words Jim Ryan says



What he said was accurate, and I can't believe you, of all people, would imply that a million users is somehow an insufficient sample. I expected better.

From Microsoft's own research, the range of users on XBO is rather diverse. With that in mind, I don't consider 1 million users a large enough group to gather accurate enough statistics.
 

Tripolygon

Banned
From Microsoft's own research, the range of users on XBO is rather diverse. With that in mind, I don't consider 1 million users a large enough group to gather accurate enough statistics.
A million is a great sample size for statistical analysis of 30 million population. It more than accounts for a decent margin of error. Good analytical data can be gleaned from even lesser but good sample size.
 

Godcannon

Member
Never underestimate the power of Nostalgia.

I wanted disk BC, they want to resell me everything again 100x. All I hear is, we can't profit on it.

Nobody wins.
 
Saying "why would anybody play this" in regards to older games is wrong on EVERY LEVEL. Some of the best games are on PS1 and PS2, PS3/360 notwithstanding. So, look at some indie games and how they try to recreate the SNES era, and how popular a lot of those are. Why would anyone play those? All those remasters coming out to get a quick buck? Why would anyone play those? I can go on and on...

Edit: Plus, he is trying to make us rebuy older games we ALREADY OWN, and forcing shitty PSNow down our throats when BC is infinitely better. Why would anybody play those older games? But please buy those overpriced older games you already paid for!

But he didn't say that

He said he was at a event, and Gran Turismo from ps1 to PS4 were for play and ps1 and 2 went untouched. And why would anyone play GT from Ps1 and 2 when PS3 and PS4 GT could be had.

So he wasn't wrong on every level. He said seen seen this. Unless you are saying he's lying?
 

Dynheart

Banned
I read the article, and I believe it is being misinterpreted. I think Ryan is talking about GT games, but that can go for any sport-like game with their sequel improving upon them. RPG games, adventure games, platformers, puzzle games etc, these games are worth going back to, as each hold a different experience/story. A new football game/hockey game/Forza game/GT game etc, these would seem to get way less attention from people when it comes to retro gaming (with very few exceptions). That would probably be why these games cost mere pennies in shops nowadays.

So while I think this article is being read into the wrong way, I do believe there is a market for BC/retro gaming. The right kind of games need the support, though. Not just the easiest ones to emulate (which would most likely be the ones no one wants to replay).
 
From Microsoft's own research, the range of users on XBO is rather diverse. With that in mind, I don't consider 1 million users a large enough group to gather accurate enough statistics.

It's a pretty big sample size, a few orders of magnitude bigger than required. You could probably get the same results from a few thousand.
 
Just say you want the remake/remaster money and be done with it.

Anyone with sense knows they couldn't care less about how a game looks in this case.
 

scream

Member
It's one of those ideas that's extremely cool in GOAL ("make it so you don't have to swap discs, ever!") but the limitations that must exist to make it function ("what's to stop someone from installing a game and reselling the disc?") aren't really worth it, and Microsoft thankfully backed away from it several months prior to launch.

I think a lot of people are like "bah, anti-consumer," and I don't really feel it qualifies as that, because it's not trying to be. It was them honestly trying to do something really cool for consumers, but they couldn't figure out how to get past it.

I remember hearing one discussion that was like "okay, so, what we could do is include a physical code with every game, and selling the game also means revoking the installation code," but the issue there was that you'd have to give people access to Microsoft's servers, and Mom n' Pop game stores would likely have to go through hoops to make that happen, because an authorization/de-authorization would be a painful/irritating process.

Installing a game to not require disc-DRM is a great idea, but there are just too many negatives to ever work. And they didn't even ship with the functionality, so being mad at them for doing something that never make it to market never made sense to me. Digital sales has basically rendered that discussion moot; if people don't want to deal with discs, they'll just buy digitally. And Microsoft gets more of the cut there anyways, by functioning as the digital retailer.

If you've been watching MS for years, you'll find they're one of the most fascinating tech companies on the planet, but the corporate management philosophy kind of works against itself. One of my favorite MS concepts was the Courier, for instance, which, I think, would have blown tablets away had it made it to market first, but it got canceled. They do a ton of amazing/crazy stuff. Their "vision of the future"/AR universe stuff is remarkable.

I think they hire a lot of really smart people to make the future interesting.

The problem is, gamers really just want to be boring. They want things to be how they've always been. Playstation is the most boring, generic, uninspiring platform on the market, and so it's the most successful. Titanfall is epic sci-fi action, but people want boring, grounded modern military stuff. People like the mundane.

What Microsoft needs to do is figure out how to deliver the mundane, then offer iterative features that excite and delight. And I think backwards compatibility has done that. Oh, sure, plenty of consoles have HAD backwards compatibility before, but Xbox One backwards compatibility is digital, and that's where it really shines. You can manage your X1 and 360 libraries together in a really smart way, and because they're dropping new games weekly, you can often sign in to find you've got new, free games.

I really wish Microsoft would quit the Xbox One branding scheme and make Scorpio Xbox 4, but I get that they want to make sure that generational shifts are fairly simultaneous to avoid a Dreamcast scenario. If they were really smart, they'd just ignore the concept of "console generation" entirely, and just go the PC route they've been hinting. Make everything always available on future iterations of the hardware, using Win32 or UWP. Then there's no such thing as backwards compatibility, and the idea of console generation becomes moot.
Can you elaborate on that please? what makes you think that?
 

paulogy

Member
Ryan's not wrong though:

xb1bc1.jpg

Source: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017...games-are-less-than-2-of-xbox-one-usage-time/

And I'd guess that "30 minutes per user" is the amount of time it takes to play a BC game after you bought it, remember what you liked about it, then put it down to play something newer and never come back.
 
The problem is, gamers really just want to be boring. They want things to be how they've always been. Playstation is the most boring, generic, uninspiring platform on the market, and so it's the most successful. Titanfall is epic sci-fi action, but people want boring, grounded modern military stuff. People like the mundane.

Except alot of Sony games are Sci fI or fantasy based. Horizon, Shadowfall, the Order, bloodborne, the upcoming GoW and many other titles this gen, simply had a realistic artsyle but the gameplay and the tech in those games were not realistic. Even Last gen, this would only apply to the Socom series. Every other shooter and TPS they had was Sci fi from Warhawk, starhawk, resistance, MAG, the KZ series and many others. So to call playstation boring is your opinion but to liken their titles to grounded modern military stuff is simply false.

Saying "why would anybody play this" in regards to older games is wrong on EVERY LEVEL. Some of the best games are on PS1 and PS2, PS3/360 notwithstanding. So, look at some indie games and how they try to recreate the SNES era, and how popular a lot of those are. Why would anyone play those? All those remasters coming out to get a quick buck? Why would anyone play those? I can go on and on...

Edit: Plus, he is trying to make us rebuy older games we ALREADY OWN, and forcing shitty PSNow down our throats when BC is infinitely better. Why would anybody play those older games? But please buy those overpriced older games you already paid for!


Except he didn't say it about every game, in the article he is only referring to GT games. And even if he was, PS now mainly has PS3 games not PS2 and PS1 games (there is a technical limitation for PS4 not having PS3 BC). And they sell PS2 remakes and remasters, which look much better than a simple emulation.

I am happy for people that love BC or Emulation. I hope people get more of it because of the options, but to treat it as if it is a HUGE issue that is common for many people is simply not true. It wasn't true last generation when both MS and Sony started tracking the numbers an it still isn't now. Even if the BC crowd was backed by 1 to 2 million players that still a small fraction of the install bases for MS or Sony.
 

KageMaru

Member
A million is a great sample size for statistical analysis of 30 million population. It more than accounts for a decent margin of error. Good analytical data can be gleaned from even lesser but good sample size.

This quote from their test makes me hesitant. It sounds like the stats are there to spark conversations but not to be used as fact.

All of these sources of potential error make us uncomfortable using our data to directly extrapolate total sales or usage numbers for the entire Xbox playerbase.

It's a pretty big sample size, a few orders of magnitude bigger than required. You could probably get the same results from a few thousand.

If they could get the same results from a few thousand, doesn't that highlight the flaw in the testing? I don't think a few thousand could accurately represent 25+million people.
 
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