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[Ted]

I don't find this attitude particularly astonishing but equally as someone who does enjoy playing older games and was happy to buy [and still use] a launch phat PS3 for that exact reason it doesn't give me huge faith that Playstation is or will remain the "best place [for me] to play" in our digital future.

The key to getting me to invest in any digital eco-system is convincing me that my library remains, as much as possible, accessible to me long into the future and certainly beyond the lifespan of my current device. Disregarding any disc based backwards compatibility for PS1 and PS2 games, just Sony's treatment of PS2 classics bought on PS3 firmly indicate to me that as a company they are quite happy to trade existing customer goodwill for a few additional sales.

I am begrudgingly willing to pay a small upgrade fee (a la Wii to Wii U virtual console) if I absolutely must or even pay a straight up fee for a platform based emulator but I refuse to buy the same game again and again and again. This is particularly problematic when the pricing for so called classics is so misaligned against other modern or remastered offerings.

Whilst I understand the issues with licensing etc. I think this stuff is entirely on the platform holder to resolve, or at least mitigate, to the satisfaction of the user.

All I as a consumer can do is choose to buy or not to buy the product given the information supplied by the seller. In this case I'm choosing not to buy the product, or at least not the digital product and instead am continuing to buy physical media knowing full well that in the future PC hardware and software will always advance and innovate far enough to allow me to rip and continue to play my games via emulation.

In summary, fuck our fragmented digital future, unless it comes with reassuring noises about retention and preservation.

 

[RalchAC]

There are still PS3 games I'd like to play, like Trails of Cold Steel I and II. But, since I got my PS4 my PS3 has been taken hostage so my parents can watch Netflix in the living room.

PS3 backwards compatibility would have solved that issue. Which is not something I'd expect on the PS4 due to hardware reasons, but still.

There is definitely some value in BC. Because publishers will never port every game I may want to play from previous generations, and nothing guarantees that those ports will be good in the first place.

If PS5 doesn't have PS4 full BC after all the architecture comments they've told I'll probably just switch to PC and call it a day. I should have enough money to build a quite decent one by then.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Surely this is subjective to you?
I think your using one Sony exec statement to carry forward your own condescending narrative. Very strange.

And the first Titanfall sold a ton, the sequel sold like crap because it's release strategy by EA was stupid.

That doesn't show people like mundane. Ridiculous.

Does it all the time, dude has a weird chip on his shoulder

 

[Z3M0G]

Strange how he's specifically targeting PS1+2 games- people want PS3 games, specifically theirs!

I want all 3.

 

[Keasar]

.....

It's not like I have a big collection of old games on PC that I like to play once in a while because it's so damn easy to play them again if I feel like it.

 

[Militaratus]

I hope the PS5 supports PS4 games with the same capabilities as the PS4 pro, offering a ULTRA! Boost mode. And maybe add support for PS3 games as it should have enough hardware power to get the software emulator working.

But by this executive comment's, his opinion in 2018/2020 will shift to "I was at a Best of Sony event recently where they had The Last of Us PS3 game and Horizon: Zero Dawn PS4 game, they looked ancient, why would anybody play them?"

 

[Freddo]

What a stupid thing to say.

I get it that BC is a bit pointless with sports/racing games like Gran Turismo, why not just play the latest with the best graphics and simulation?

But with other genres? Like JRPGs where the story play a huge part? The PS1 is arguably the golden era of JRPGs, and offer huge adventures and a sense of wonder compared to many JRPGs today. Needless to say, I'm rather peeved the PS4 can't run the digital PS1 and PS2 games I bought on the PS3.

Don't really care much about PS3 BC though, there's Nier and the Yakuza games and that's kind of it for me. And the few times I feel like playing those, I can just pull out my PS3.

 

[Par Score]

This is incredibly dumb, and disrespectful to boot.

Imagine this attitude was taken in other mediums. Oh, who wants to watch old films, who wants to read old books, who wants to listen to old music? Why would anyone want to experience a creative work made more than 5 years ago? It's ridiculous.

The general attitude towards the history of gaming from within the industry is as shocking as it is shameful, but then I guess these guys just want you to buy the latest shiny thing they're selling you. Oh well, there's always PC gaming / emulation.

 

[Melchiah]

He's not wrong. Gaf is an echo chamber on some things. Most people IRL would use backwards compatibility a handful of times and the rest of the time on modern games.

Probably the same for forum dwellers as well, but BC people are the loudest so they make it seem like 90% of gamers really want to spend their time replaying Devil May Cry instead of Witcher 3, which I highly doubt.

I tend to agree. I only used the option on the PS2/3 few times early on to see how some favorites looked on the new system, and that's it. While it would be nice to have the possibility of revisiting some old favorites, it's highly likely I just used the limited gaming time on new titles.

 

[leeh]

He's not wrong. Gaf is an echo chamber on some things. Most people IRL would use backwards compatibility a handful of times and the rest of the time on modern games.

Probably the same for forum dwellers as well, but BC people are the loudest so they make it seem like 90% of gamers really want to spend their time replaying Devil May Cry instead of Witcher 3, which I highly doubt.

Did you ignore every post in this thread which proves this is very wrong?

 

[StereoVsn]

I agree with some of you who say nobody plays old games at all. After all that Nintendo NES/Famicom attempt was an absolute failure and they even cancelled that system after less then a year after release!

Oh wait, that's a giant nopea and that piece of plastic with super retro games was so popular that it was always sold out. While that was NES which was quite nostalgic for a lot of people that doesn't mean that having easy availability of PS1, PS2, heck PSP, Vita and PS3 games on modern PS4 system would no be of an interest to many people.

A lot of younger people got into gaming on PS1 or have a fond memory of that and PS2. Proper spin/marketing and sales might have picked up a bit. Nintendo dead done a terrible job with VC but still availability of the old library is a good talking point and considering that PS3 was able to emulate lost PS2 games (albeit with some issues), PS4 does alright there as well as seen from the few PS2 games released.

It's just Sony unwilling to throw a few bodies at the problem because they thought selling PS2 games with trophies to people again for high prices that probably didn't sell too well (outside GTA) and publishers are clearly not very interested due to work involved. Consider a contrast to Microsofts amazing work bringing 360 games to Xbone. Not only is just a much harder task from computing perspective, MS also tests every single game AND let's you use disks as verification.

So POX on Sony for not doing the right thing and bringing older games to PS4. Yeah, PS1, most of PS2, PSP games are all emulated fairly well on PC, but that's a different conversation.

 

[c0de]

I hope the PS5 supports PS4 games with the same capabilities as the PS4 pro, offering a ULTRA! Boost mode. And maybe add support for PS3 games as it should have enough hardware power to get the software emulator working.

But by this executive comment's, his opinion in 2018/2020 will shift to "I was at a Best of Sony event recently where they had The Last of Us PS3 game and Horizon: Zero Dawn PS4 game, they looked ancient, why would anybody play them?"

4 years in, games loose their value.

 

[c0de]

I tend to agree. I only used the option on the PS2/3 few times early on to see how some favorites looked on the new system, and that's it. While it would be nice to have the possibility of revisiting some old favorites, it's highly likely I just used the limited gaming time on new titles.

It's not only visiting but buying.
Given how many games are released nowadays people can easily miss a gem. If they are available digitally for years on a new system, you can buy this game and don't have to worry on which system it was, as long as it's PlayStation in your case.
There is a reason why gog is successful selling old titles.

 

[Roshin]

Back in 2013 when promoting the PS4 they ran the video," 4theplayers since 1995" which was aimed at triggering nostalgia. Now in 2017 they must protect you from experiencing those grotesque looking PlayStation games from 1995-2006

That's exactly the video I was thinking of. Imagine if Jim popped up halfway through and said "Lol, shit's old. Why would you play that?".

Thinking about it, I mostly play "old" games, simply because I don't have time to keep up with current releases. I'm probably a couple of years behind the curve.

 

[Melchiah]

It's not only visiting but buying.
Given how many games are released nowadays people can easily miss a gem. If they are available digitally for years on a new system, you can buy this game and don't have to worry on which system it was, as long as it's PlayStation in your case.
There is a reason why gog is successful selling old titles.

I think consoles should be backwards compatible from this generation forward, considering the digital libraries people have now, but highly doubt that a large percentage of users would play PS1 titles on their PS4. Especially, when you factor in time constraints. Those who played them on the PS1 are adults now, who probably have a limited time to play games these days. If you have only few hours a week to play, it's highly likely you'd use those hours to experience something new, instead of replaying old games. That's certainly why I haven't replayed even some of the newer games, There's always something new to play, that takes up my time.

 

[Q8D3vil]

Fuck off, there are too many ps2/ps1 classics that will never ever get an hd remake.

 

[c0de]

I think consoles should be backwards compatible from this generation forward, considering the digital libraries people have now, but highly doubt that a large percentage of users would play PS1 titles on their PS4. Especially, when you factor in time constraints. Those who played them on the PS1 are adults now, who probably have a limited time to play games these days. If you have only few hours a week to play, it's highly likely you'd use those hours to experience something new, instead of replaying old games. That's certainly why I haven't replayed even some of the newer games, There's always something new to play, that takes up my time.

But what makes a game old exactly? There are many timeless classics to play. I never played Suikoden, for example. It would be nice if I was able to buy the game digitally when it's on sale and play it whenever I find time for it, no matter which system but of course knowing that it's tied to a platform.
And there are way more games that have a timeless gameplay/story/appeal to gamers.

 

[family_guy]

There are still PS3 games I'd like to play, like Trails of Cold Steel I and II. But, since I got my PS4 my PS3 has been taken hostage so my parents can watch Netflix in the living room.

PS3 backwards compatibility would have solved that issue. Which is not something I'd expect on the PS4 due to hardware reasons, but still.

There is definitely some value in BC. Because publishers will never port every game I may want to play from previous generations, and nothing guarantees that those ports will be good in the first place.

If PS5 doesn't have PS4 full BC after all the architecture comments they've told I'll probably just switch to PC and call it a day. I should have enough money to build a quite decent one by then.

Both Cold Steel games are on Playstation Now just in case you wanted to go that route. A 1-2 month subscription would probably be sufficient to complete them. They are also coming to PC.

 

[c0de]

Both Cold Steel games are on Playstation Now just in case you wanted to go that route. A 1-2 month subscription would probably be sufficient to complete them. They are also coming to PC.

Playstation now is likely not an option for many gamers.

 

[Bergerac]

So... the guy has no say in backwards compatability in Sony platforms, he looked at PS1/2 era GT, gave his opinion that he felt it looked bad, and asked why anyone would play it.

Why are we getting upset... ? Purely because of his position at Sony?

Personally I'm just gonna shrug, and leave.

 

[Trup1aya]

He's not wrong. Gaf is an echo chamber on some things. Most people IRL would use backwards compatibility a handful of times and the rest of the time on modern games.

Probably the same for forum dwellers as well, but BC people are the loudest so they make it seem like 90% of gamers really want to spend their time replaying Devil May Cry instead of Witcher 3, which I highly doubt.

I'm sorry man but this is just dumb. Obviously people dont buy new consoles simply to spend the majority of their time playing old games.

But the ability to play old games adds value to the console and to people's existing collection. Out also helps developers extract additional value out of their IP.

Its bout that people overwhelmingly want to play dmc INSTEAD of wither 3. But people who missed dmc might want to check it out, others might want to revisit it.

 

[KageMaru]

So everyone who defends Jim's statement would you also be perfectly happy with having zero BC support on PS5?

I brought this point up a couple times and none of them have answered. While some at GAF are loyal or have strong preferences towards one of the big three, most gamers are fickle. Last gen the 360 was my system of choice for my circle of friends and I, but now this gen we've all moved over to the PS4. Assuming all things are equal next gen, if the next Xbox offers full BC while the PS5 does not, that'll make the decision that much easier for many people like me. <- That is a very important aspect that I hope Sony is considering.

 

[so1337]

So... the guy has no say in backwards compatability in Sony platforms, he looked at PS1/2 era GT, gave his opinion that he felt it looked bad, and asked why anyone would play it.

Why are we getting upset... ? Purely because of his position at Sony?

Personally I'm just gonna shrug, and leave.

Because his excuse for a missing feature is shitty and condescending.

 

[Melchiah]

But what makes a game old exactly? There are many timeless classics to play. I never played Suikoden, for example. It would be nice if I was able to buy the game digitally when it's on sale and play it whenever I find time for it, no matter which system but of course knowing that it's tied to a platform.
And there are way more games that have a timeless gameplay/story/appeal to gamers.

Well, all the talk about diminishing returns with graphics should point out, that the newer games don't differ as much from the current ones as those of the PS1 era. I revisited Soul Reaver and RE2 briefly on the PS3 myself, and the games hadn't aged well visually, and partly mechanically. There's a dissonance between people on gaming forums and the general public. The latter group is unlikely to get as excited about retro games as the former. Hell, I only know few people who play anything else than what's been released during this generation.

Personally, I'd like to have the option to revisit some PS2 classics, but I'm not sure if I actually used it.

 

[Alter_Fridge]

I agree Jim. If you're backwards compatible, you're really backwards.

 

[Yarbskoo]

I have games in my backlog that are older than I am.

Spoiler

Also, the first Gran Turismo is the best Gran Turismo.

 

[Uno Venova]

Did you ignore every post in this thread which proves this is very wrong?

If Angry Fork is talking about BC for 6th generation games and older, I don't think he is.

 

[Freddo]

Both Cold Steel games are on Playstation Now just in case you wanted to go that route. A 1-2 month subscription would probably be sufficient to complete them. They are also coming to PC.

Playstation Now is not an option for most people, it's still unavailable in a very large number of countries.

 

[Clear]

This is incredibly dumb, and disrespectful to boot.

Imagine this attitude was taken in other mediums. Oh, who wants to watch old films, who wants to read old books, who wants to listen to old music? Why would anyone want to experience a creative work made more than 5 years ago? It's ridiculous.

The general attitude towards the history of gaming from within the industry is as shocking as it is shameful, but then I guess these guys just want you to buy the latest shiny thing they're selling you. Oh well, there's always PC gaming / emulation.

Oh come on, no-one buys a HD Blu-Ray player and then complains that it won't handle their old VHS tapes and Laserdiscs!

This is exactly analogous to the idea that new, technologically and architecturally dissimilar hardware should be able to replicate the function of kit that's 20 plus years old.

And I'm sorry, it strikes me that this has less to do with preservation than simple convenience. As its not at all unique functionality we're talking about here, if you want to play PS1-era software there are multiple ways of going about it. Its hardly in danger of vanishing from the world!

 

[Melchiah]

Oh come on, no-one buys a HD Blu-Ray player and then complains that it won't handle their old VHS tapes and Laserdiscs!

This is exactly analogous to the idea that new, technologically and architecturally dissimilar hardware should be able to replicate the function of kit that's 20 plus years old.

And I'm sorry, it strikes me that this has less to do with preservation than simple convenience. As its not at all unique functionality we're talking about here, if you want to play PS1-era software there are multiple ways of going about it. Its hardly in danger of vanishing from the world!

Good point.

 

[gamz]

Oh come on, no-one buys a HD Blu-Ray player and then complains that it won't handle their old VHS tapes and Laserdiscs!

This is exactly analogous to the idea that new, technologically and architecturally dissimilar hardware should be able to replicate the function of kit that's 20 plus years old.

And I'm sorry, it strikes me that this has less to do with preservation than simple convenience. As its not at all unique functionality we're talking about here, if you want to play PS1-era software there are multiple ways of going about it. Its hardly in danger of vanishing from the world!

And yet movies from that era are readily available.

 

[Feraligatr]

Why watch old movies when we have new, higher definition ones? Why listen to old music when we have digitized sounds? This man is so far disconnected from why gaming is important it's appalling. He's basically implying that graphical fidelity corresponds to good games. He doesn't understand the very core of what makes gaming enjoyable and rejects games like Super Mario Bros. 3 which will forever be cemented as timeless classics. There's still so much we can learn from objectively looking at the past, and in order for gaming to succeed as a serious medium we need to always have respect for what precedes current generations. I can't believe I'm even having to defend this, what an absolute moron.

 

[Mr.Deadshot]

For me backwards compatibility is a nice to have thing, but nothing mandatory. I have all the old systems that I want to play games on anyways. And to be honest, most of the time I play with the newer systems anyways. I even have an old Launch-PS3 and I think I never ever put a PS2-disc into it ...

If someone is desperate to play PS2/PS3-games, why not simply get a PS2/PS3? Both also play all PS1-games.

 

[gamz]

For me backwards compatibility is a nice to have thing, but nothing mandatory. I have all the old systems that I want to play games on anyways. And to be honest, most of the time I play with the newer systems anyways. I even have an old Launch-PS3 and I think I never ever put a PS2-disc into it ...

If someone is desperate to play PS2/PS3-games, why not simply get a PS2/PS3? Both also play all PS1-games.

It's because Sony doesn't have the system like Xbox does. Once you have a system that does BC right there's no going back, and realize how wrong this dude is.

 

[sobaka770]

I brought this point up a couple times and none of them have answered. While some at GAF are loyal or have strong preferences towards one of the big three, most gamers are fickle. Last gen the 360 was my system of choice for my circle of friends and I, but now this gen we've all moved over to the PS4. Assuming all things are equal next gen, if the next Xbox offers full BC while the PS5 does not, that'll make the decision that much easier for many people like me. <- That is a very important aspect that I hope Sony is considering.

I think BC demand is a little bit exxagerated.

It's a nice-to-have feature, but if PS5 has, for some reason, a different system setup (although that's unlikely) and doesn't offer BC, then I wouldn't really care. I have trouble playing some older games, unless they are absolute classics. I want to play KOTOR again, BG, HL2, but every time I start, I start noticing how aged these games have become. And that's on PC with all the possible graphics and gameplay enhancement mods.. I could spend this time playing newer and most-of-the-time better games.

I'd rather, if a game is truly transcendental to have an updated version released or remade, than boot up a 480p pixelated poorly animated mess with outdated controls and level design just after playing Horizon. It's jarring.

I know I only have anecdotal evidence, and there are some older games which I still would like to play, but I'm much more excited about new stuff.

 

[c0de]

Oh come on, no-one buys a HD Blu-Ray player and then complains that it won't handle their old VHS tapes and Laserdiscs!

This is exactly analogous to the idea that new, technologically and architecturally dissimilar hardware should be able to replicate the function of kit that's 20 plus years old.

And I'm sorry, it strikes me that this has less to do with preservation than simple convenience. As its not at all unique functionality we're talking about here, if you want to play PS1-era software there are multiple ways of going about it. Its hardly in danger of vanishing from the world!

Hmm? Bc games can even be better with bc. Save states, better performance, better filtering, higher resolution... Your analogy with bluray and legacy formats is just not valid at all.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

And yet movies from that era are readily available.

As are games from previous eras, in the form of remasters and emulated titles available on PSN.

Clear's point was answering the issue with some people's expectation to be able to still put a PS1 disc in a PS5 and have it work.

Edit:

I find the thread title rather disingenuous, actually. I think it's inciting a lot of folks to outrage when it's not necessary.

Jim's comment, "would anyone play this?", should be taken in context. He's not talking about all BC games. He's talking about how dated the PS1 and PS2 Gran Turismo games are.

Since the only major thing that changes in GT games from game to game is the graphics and the accuracy of the physics model, it's pretty obvious that older GT games have inherently less value than newer ones.

It's the same as saying "why would anyone play FIFA and MADDEN 2001", when the latest versions are so much better in every way. That's making no judgement about the value of other games from that era.

I think the title should be changed. I feel Jim's being misconstrued here.

 

[Sad Affleck]

That is extremely arrogant of him, to presume that his opinion is shared by the majority.

 

[Vinnk]

Imagine this attitude was taken in other mediums. Oh, who wants to watch old films, who wants to read old books, who wants to listen to old music? Why would anyone want to experience a creative work made more than 5 years ago? It's ridiculous.

Agree. Games will never be treated as "Art" until publishers respect them as anything other than a disposable good.

 

[mckmas8808]

I doubt it.

I think they are lying too.

 

[Melchiah]

That is extremely arrogant of him, to presume that his opinion is shared by the majority.

I think it's safe to say it's the minority, who would like to play games from a decade or more ago. It would be actually interesting to know what percentage of people used the backwards compatibility on the PS3, and how much.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

That is extremely arrogant of him, to presume that his opinion is shared by the majority.

Given that his preceding statement is clearly informed by internal data, I'm pretty sure his opinion about GT games from the PS1 and PS2 era IS shared by the majority.

Of all the people, Jim Ryan is the guy who would know how about how popular BC is.

 

[Quonny]

I personally think BC is worthless, but I'm not arrogant enough to assume everyone shares my opinion. But then again I'm not a high level executive. Maybe it comes with the territory.

 

[KageMaru]

I think BC demand is a little bit exxagerated.

It's a nice-to-have feature, but if PS5 has, for some reason, a different system setup (although that's unlikely) and doesn't offer BC, then I wouldn't really care. I have trouble playing some older games, unless they are absolute classics. I want to play KOTOR again, BG, HL2, but every time I start, I start noticing how aged these games have become. And that's on PC with all the possible graphics and gameplay enhancement mods.. I could spend this time playing newer and most-of-the-time better games.

I'd rather, if a game is truly transcendental to have an updated version released or remade, than boot up a 480p pixelated poorly animated mess with outdated controls and level design just after playing Horizon. It's jarring.

I know I only have anecdotal evidence, and there are some older games which I still would like to play, but I'm much more excited about new stuff.

That's the thing, I believe you when you say BC isn't a big deal to you, but there's no denying that Sony would be at a disadvantage if MS offered a similarly capable and priced system but had a back catalog of 1000+ games on top of what's offered at launch. It could also effect the willingness to invest in a digital catalog if gamers had to reset that catalog for every new generation.

Digital content was not a focal point when last gen started. Sure it was there in the beginning but mostly for smaller and cheaper games. Now almost every game is offered digitally, most games have DLC, and many have gone fully digital for the sake of convenience. This trend is also helped my the amount of free content offered to service subscribers, raising the chance an owner has a backlog of games. Sure people can say "just keep your old console" but that isn't ideal for everyone. I have enough systems that I have them connected in two rooms across two displays. If I'm forced to keep my PS4 and XBO, I'll need to purchase additional shelf space, which could be another consideration.

No matter what anyone's personal preference or feelings are on the matter, it would be a benefit to the competition if gamers could trade in their XBO for a $50-100 discount and not have to worry about their investments made this gen.

 

[Keinning]

The people claiming "BC isn't as important, look at the gap between Xbox and Playstation sales!!!" are missing the point

BC was never going to put Xbox and Playstation on equal footing, the damage was already done by that point. What it did (and it did very well), however, was keeping people from jumping ship to PS4 completely - so many people would already have sold their X1s by now if BC wasn't a thing. They kept the users, kept the subscriptions and prepped the way for Scorpio (a mid gen refresh which will keep not only your x1 games but your x360 games as well). And now they have all the time in the world to build over this foundation so they can make it a difference. Which is why i'm convinced an eventual PS5 will have BC for PS4 too, not everyone on Sony is as dense as Jim Ryan.

 

[Videospel]

Gran Turismo is a terrible example. Of course that's a game that looks dated and that most people would probably play the newer one of instead of an old one. But what about older action games and RPGs, where there aren't iterative versions of a franchise but rather just the one game that exists and that people absolutely want to play again? That's like saying "Look at Madden 02. Why would anyone want to go back to that?"

Come the fuck on, man.

Exactly. Maybe I'd want to play Metal Gear Solid, for the story and a piece of gaming history. That can not just be subsituted by the 'superior' MGS5.

 

[Melchiah]

I personally think BC is worthless, but I'm not arrogant enough to assume everyone shares my opinion. But then again I'm not a high level executive. Maybe it comes with the territory.

Where does he actually say that? He questions why anyone would want to play old games in the same racing series over the new ones, and that the backwards compatibility wasn't supposedly used much before.

 

[c0de]

I think it's safe to say it's the minority, who would like to play games from a decade or more ago. It would be actually interesting to know what percentage of people used the backwards compatibility on the PS3, and how much.

It wouldn't lead to anything as bc was only available to some models, had varying implementations with varying quality and initially was sold with an overpriced console.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Where does he actually say that? He questions why anyone would want to play old games in the same racing series over the new ones, and that the backwards compatibility wasn't supposedly used much before.

Yep.

I think people are projecting their own opinions about the value of BC onto Jim's comments, and the thread title isn't helping.

Jim's is clearly speaking speaking specifically about old GT games and not at all making a value assessment about ALL BC games in general.

I think it would help people to recognize this so as to avoid unnecessary outrage.

 

[oldboss]

Come on, the guy's got two firstnames ... What did you expect?