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[Skux]

Of course it's political, whether David wants to say so officially or not. I'm pretty sure he intends it to be too - Cage might not be the best storyteller but at least he always knows what he wants to say.

Detroit looks like it could be his best game, really looking forward to it.

 

[Lo_Fi]

Oh well, I guess him not saying shit just doesn't bother me at all unlike most people. I get what the deal is, I just don't understand why it bothers people.

It bothers people because media and their messages effect the world. It may not effect you directly, but if it says something accidentally, it can still influence people. Which indirectly effects all of us.

Edit: and if you don't agree that media effects people, then I don't know what to say to you.

 

[thecosmicfly]

Y'know, I believe him. I'm confident that Detroit, like his other games, will have nothing of worth to say.

 

[Frozenprince]

I mean this attitude that we need to pretend that a story is nothing and everything all at the same time is why 99% of video game narratives have the depth and subtlety of a bad hollywood blockbuster.

Embrace the medium as an avenue to tell stories in a new, unique way, that you can also use to tell new, unique stories. Stop being afraid of losing some audience because they "don't get it" or you made it "too political".

 

[Lo_Fi]

I mean this attitude that we need to pretend that a story is nothing and everything all at the same time is why 99% of video game narratives have the depth and subtlety of a bad hollywood blockbuster.

Embrace the medium as an avenue to tell stories in a new, unique way, that you can also use to tell new, unique stories. Stop being afraid of losing some audience because they "don't get it" or you made it "too political".

Well said.

 

[Satch]

Slavery of white, african american, and asian androids. It's not just white people.

how do you not understand??? and with a Yoko Taro avatar of all things. do you know about Nier and what was on his mind when he made it?

lord almighty god, our schools have got to do better

 

[Deleted member 80556]

He must validate interpretations.

Of course not. You might want to take a look at David Lynch's work and how it has several interpretations, all of which he loves to hear and talk about. Then he gives his own possible interpretation, or none at all. But he still stands up for his art because he knows his art says something.

I don't even need Cage to validate my interpretation of Detroit considering it has the subtlety of a hammer dropping to my head. EDIT: And lol at comparing critics to kidnapping a person. Way to take it all the way to eleven.

 

[Vroadstar]

Eh, that's disappointing to hear. I was interested in the game during Sony's conference, but now it's waning. If a writer doesn't have the confidence or balls to take a stance on the themes they're working on, it tells me as the audience not to be confident about their work as well.

I'm sure all the questions he wants me to think about have already been discussed better in other works. What is it that will make Detroit different if its themes don't have a punch? There are other games that utilize the same gameplay mechanic.

How can you show interest and be the audience of a game exclusive to a system you don't own?

And please tell me, which other games, in a system you actually own this time, that utilized the same gameplay mechanics as Detroit? because as far as I know QD is pretty much the only (correct me if I'm wrong here GAF) utilizing the gameplay mechanics you can find in their games.

One of the best things to come out of E3. I've always wanted to play RL but didn't own any of the other systems.

 

[joe_zazen]

From what I can tell he obviously means this in the sense that the game is so heavily open ended and every branch is given equal treatment that there is no direct political message, at least not a singular one. He merely throws questions at you and the message will be whatever you make of it in the end if you want to do so. You can start an Android revolution or you don't. He probably has a personal favourite ending but of course he wouldnt say which one it is. In that sense he is pretty right that there probably isnt much concrete beyond the surface level that is forced onto you without being a player choice

.

I'm keen to see what varieties of play throughs can be had. Will they allow a sociopathic or fascist path in addition to the good guy path?

 

[Lord Error]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1284563

That's why I said the final intent of the writer was what I wrote above. That evaluation you posted is cool and all - it shows a way how the AI used the weakness of this man that he himself wasn't aware of being exploitable

Spoiler

(that he's a "nice guy" who see women as a prize) manipulating him into thinking she's going to be his prize after rescuing her, and then disposed of him. A girl seducing a guy (or vice versa) to achieve their goals is not exactly a new thing, and I don't consider it exactly political, but in that movie it was expressed that a guy faced against that kind of AI girl was practically doomed from the beginning, as she was programmed to feed into all his desires that he wasn't even consciously aware of. That in a similar way no one would have a chance against that kind of adversary. In fact I would go a step further and say that if Caleb was an actual nice person - no quotes, his actions and eventual outcome would not have been any different really, but it added a nice wrinkle to see that he's not as quite as pure as he seems at first.

. It was a story that's primarily about an AI-in-a-box problem, that Garland didn't think by himself, but presented in a very literal, digestible, and colourful way in this film. It's however a problem that is often being discussed in the last few years, in analyzing how to prevent such things from happening - how to not get outsmarted by something that knows more about everyone trying to stop it, then they know themselves.

 

[Frozenprince]

I'm sure the big "twist" will, of course, be that either Humans are simply pawns to some stupid higher power themselves, or that "in our efforts to overcome our oppressors, we have become them" or some equally hamfisted crap, too.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

I'm sure the big "twist" will, of course, be that either Humans are simply pawns to some stupid higher power themselves, or that "in our efforts to overcome our oppressors, we have become them" or some equally hamfisted crap, too.

"Should've waited for the appropriate time to have progress instilled in society after all!".

"Humanity agreed on the intent, but not the methods!".

 

[NinjamicWZ]

Nobody is saying that he has to say what it is about.

Just that saying "it's not about anything" is a lie.

It can't be all for nothing.

 

[Frozenprince]

"Should've waited for the appropriate time to have progress instilled in society after all!".

"Humanity agreed on the intent, but not the methods!".

Swear to god if I see one kneeling or doing the power fist and getting backlash my eyes might pop out my skull from rolling so hard.

 

[HMD]

"Should've waited for the appropriate time to have progress instilled in society after all!".

"Humanity agreed on the intent, but not the methods!".

All lives matter, human and android alike.

 

[joe_zazen]

It bothers people because media and their messages effect the world. It may not effect you directly, but if it says something accidentally, it can still influence people. Which indirectly effects all of us.

Edit: and if you don't agree that media effects people, then I don't know what to say to you.

So all media should have an intentional message?

 

[Quasar]

Well I can't say the allegory even crossed my mind, I assumed it was just riffing on Bladerunner et al.

 

[Frozenprince]

So all media should have an intentional message?

No, just that denying media has any message is stupid when it clearly does, whether you're trying to take the vague, lazy and intellectually dishonest method of just having people broach your media product themselves without you "trying" to say something when you actually are, or not.

You can solve all of this by simply saying "While I believe my story has political and ethical preponderances, I also believe it's one that people from all walks of life can sit down and enjoy and appreciate without feeling alienated"

 

[Rover99]

Humans (TV series)

the series explores the themes of artificial intelligence and robotics, focusing on the social, cultural, and psychological impact of the invention of anthropomorphic robots called "synths".

The Tv show Humans is not overtly political but it does touch on issues that one could draw out as being tangentially political because of the themes of the show and the mere definition of politics. That still doesn't mean that the show is aiming to make a political message. It's telling an interesting story. If you want to come to your own conclusions about what it's saying that's fine but don't try to then say the whole theme of the show is some political message. I think most people would say that would be reaching.

Also, if you look hard enough everybody, human or not is a slave because there is always someone(s) who can determine your future.

 

[Frozenprince]

Humans (TV series)



The Tv show Humans is not overtly political but it does touch on issues that one could draw out as being tangentially political because of the themes of the show and the mere definition of politics. That still doesn't mean that the show is aiming to make a political message. It's telling an interesting story. If you want to come to your own conclusions about what it's saying that's fine but don't try to then say the whole theme of the show is some political message. I think most people would say that would be reaching.

Also, if you look hard enough everybody, human or not is a slave because there is always someone(s) who can determine your future.

These two statements next to one another is funny.

Edit: Also, I'm sorry, but this:

Is political as FUCK, nothing tangential about it, that's as in your face as it could conceivably be.

 

[ScientificPizza]

The games are legit good, not amazing but they are well recognized. This game seems to be the most interesting out of all of them to me. Connor seems to be an awesome character and I want to learn more about Kara.

Yeah I'm not saying that game is going to be bad, but I think we're past the point of thinking that *this* will be the game where Cage finally gets the writing right. He's just not that good of a writer

 

[koss424]

Is this a joke.

Have you guys ever consumed science fiction media before.

This game is about a group of slaves in Detroit rebelling against their masters.

if you want to make a different game go for it. Why would you criticize someone who says there is nothing more than what you play. Buy it and play.. or don't

 

[NightShift]

This reminds me a little about the whole 'game over' thing. Like, David, there's nothing wrong with making your game political. It may in fact make it better.

 

[koss424]

This game has politics written all over it.

for those light of mind. These topics have been dealt with for decades. It would be nice to see a modern twist on the trope.

 

[Lo_Fi]

No, just that denying media has any message is stupid when it clearly does, whether you're trying to take the vague, lazy and intellectually dishonest method of just having people broach your media product themselves without you "trying" to say something when you actually are, or not.

You can solve all of this by simply saying "While I believe my story has political and ethical preponderances, I also believe it's one that people from all walks of life can sit down and enjoy and appreciate without feeling alienated"

Thank you, you said it better than I could.

 

[ScientificPizza]

for those light of mind. These topics have been dealt with for decades. It would be nice to see a modern twist on the trope.

Yeah if you think the idea of robotic slavery is inherently political you're stupid!!

 

[Lo_Fi]

if you want to make a different game go for it. Why would you criticize someone who says there is nothing more than what you play. Buy it and play.. or don't

We're criticizing him because he's bringing things that are politically charged into a game that he doesn't want to say anything with. Which means he might end up saying something bad unintentionally with it. Which could be harmful.

 

[veloxStrix]

I'm not sure I care then. If the director says "he isn't trying to say something", I can only assume he is an idiot who doesn't actually know anything about media in any way. Or he is too afraid to actually make a statement. A pretty disappointing answer.

Honestly though, I'll probably just end up waiting for reviews and getting it anyways.

 

[messiaen]

Everything is political, sorry. Politics extends beyond the artist intentionally trying to communicate a specific idea in their work.

This is a political statement in and of itself, too.

That's not entirely true. Art is in the eye of those who participate in its interpretation, that inclides the artists themselves, they are participants in their own thought experiments. If someone doesn't view a piece of art as political then it doesn't make their interpretation wrong, there's no such thing. Art is never defined by anything.

It's very dangerous to think there are right and wrong ways to interpret art.

 

[Marmaladefire]

"Gonna make a game about slavery in Detroit"
"No-not that I believe in equal rights, or anything at all, really! I swear!!!!"

Okay.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

So was that song at the beginning and the power fist later on just my imagination?

 

[Kumorin]

Artists have been saying this since forever. Just last year Marilyn Manson said of his Trump decapitation video, “As an artist, my duty is to ask the questions. The viewer must answer them.”

Just because an artist doesn’t intentionally make a grand statement with their work doesn’t mean the art doesn’t encourage one to think politically, socially, or philosophically about what they’ve beheld.

Cage, in particular, makes stories that are shaped by the player’s choices. How limiting would it be for the player if he were to come out and tell you exactly what how you should interpret the narrative, before you’ve even had a chance to put your mark on it?

 

[ScientificPizza]

Artists have been saying this since forever. Just last year Marilyn Manson said of his Trump decapitation video, “As an artist, my duty is to ask the questions. The viewer must answer them.”

Just because an artist doesn’t intentionally make a grand statement with their work doesn’t mean the art doesn’t encourage one to think politically, socially, or philosophically about what they’ve beheld.

Cage, in particular, makes stories that are shaped by the player’s choices. How limiting would it be for the player if he were to come out and tell you exactly what how you should interpret the narrative, before you’ve even had a chance to put your mark on it?

Player choice doesn't negate political over and undertones. In fact more often than not the politics of the situation is the framework within which your choices are made

The Marilyn Manson video is a terrible example because if you don't think beheading Donald Trump is political idk what to tell you. The question Manson is raising isn't "do you find this political?", but "how does this image look to you through your personal political lens"

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Artists have been saying this since forever. Just last year Marilyn Manson said of his Trump decapitation video, “As an artist, my duty is to ask the questions. The viewer must answer them.”

Just because an artist doesn’t intentionally make a grand statement with their work doesn’t mean the art doesn’t encourage one to think politically, socially, or philosophically about what they’ve beheld.

Cage, in particular, makes stories that are shaped by the player’s choices. How limiting would it be for the player if he were to come out and tell you exactly what how you should interpret the narrative, before you’ve even had a chance to put your mark on it?

I mean, Manson said that just because he wants attention and no consequences.

(Also, Manson failed to get attention for it, lmao).

 

[tearsofash]

Actually, he is saying a lot by saying nothing at all.

 

[LinkAndEpona]

*makes game about slaves uprising*

"Not political tho"


lol

Why does anyone give this hack money?

Well I do like the games he makes, so there's my money for that.

 

[cordy]

He doesn't have to say it, the game says it for him. Shit he's got Jesse Williams in this lol.

 

[Buzzman]

If you look hard enough you can find a political message in anything because the human condition in of itself is a struggle for power.

You're absolutely right!

Robots achieving consciousness is also the plot of Ex Machina and in neither of those movies did I feel a political message was being made.

Now do you understand why your first post was so derided?

 

[iratA]

OP I've got some news for you, its a game, its being made to be enjoyed and should be consumed as such. All you really need to ask yourself is this: Do I like the look of this game and should I buy it? Why do we have to jump on these creators and visionaries with our own agendas?

Let fiction reside in the realm of fiction. So many people calling out people for hidden agendas that simply aren't there or can't be proven.

Also I feel sorry for David Cage as he makes story driven experiences that seem to attract a lot of negativity and from people who prefer to play games that require more physical and skill based interactions. Some of this comes off as, or seems to turn into hate, and I would like to think this message board is above this behavior.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Artists have been saying this since forever. Just last year Marilyn Manson said of his Trump decapitation video, ”As an artist, my duty is to ask the questions. The viewer must answer them."

Just because an artist doesn't intentionally make a grand statement with their work doesn't mean the art doesn't encourage one to think politically, socially, or philosophically about what they've beheld.

Cage, in particular, makes stories that are shaped by the player's choices. How limiting would it be for the player if he were to come out and tell you exactly what how you should interpret the narrative, before you've even had a chance to put your mark on it?

David Cage insisted that he's actually only want to make a story about androids while setting the game in Detroid, using Jesse Williams, and starting his trailer with a black android singing spirituals. That's like Marilyn Manson saying "if people want to think it has something to do with the US Election, that's fine with me. But I actually only wanted to show some gore."

I mean, he can do whatever he want with his story. Make it as shallow and as popcorn-y as possible for all I care. I enjoyed all his games as just that. I just wish he didn't use all these imagery of racial activism and struggles just for cheap emotional reaction.

 

[Kumorin]

Player choice doesn't negate political over and undertones. In fact more often than not the politics of the situation is the framework within which your choices are made

The Marilyn Manson video is a terrible example because if you don't think beheading Donald Trump is political idk what to tell you. The question Manson is raising isn't "do you find this political?", but "how does this image look to you through your personal political lens"

It’s not only political and therein lies the issue. Manson is, on the contrary, a great example because it show us how limiting our discussion of Manson’s video is by your predetermined standards. You would have it that the only question worth asking is “how do you view this through your political lens?” and closing discussion on “morality,” “wish fulfillment” or a Manson favorite, “the cult of celebrity,” for starters.

Player choice does not negate political overtones. You are correct. But political overtones can limit player choice superficially in a game like Cage’s where engaging with the game world via the characters is how we connect to the story emotionally. Knowing, by correlation to the real world, who are the villains and who are the heroes, how many people will make choices that align them with the wrong side of history?

 

[Kumorin]

David Cage insisted that he's actually only want to make a story about androids while setting the game in Detroid, using Jesse Williams, and starting his trailer with a black android singing spirituals. That's like Marilyn Manson saying "if people want to think it has something to do with the US Election, that's fine with me. But I actually only wanted to show some gore."

I mean, he can do whatever he want with his story. Make it as shallow and as popcorn-y as possible for all I care. I enjoyed all his games as just that. I just wish he didn't use all these imagery of racial activism and struggles just for cheap emotional reaction.

I never said either of these men weren’t above playing coy. Manson beheaded a high profile public figure and maybe he just wanted to know if we enjoyed that as much as we thought we would? That means the US election could be incidental to other deeper questions.

I’m bordering on playing Devil’s advocate here, but I have to say, I don’t believe it’s just “for cheap emotional reaction." I believe he is building an emotional baseline and attempting to connect us to this cold future world via subverted moments that are recognizably human, ours. That being said, I wouldn’t say he is specifically referencing a singular moment. Would you?

 

[Kumorin]

I mean, Manson said that just because he wants attention and no consequences.

(Also, Manson failed to get attention for it, lmao).

It’s also highly possible that Cage said that because he doesn’t want to deal with any of the fallout to come from his politically charged game But it doesn’t mean that the spirit of what’s being said isn’t right!

 

[edbooneyebrows]

Cool. I personally dont want political shit injected to my vidya. Will buy detroit

 

[Mass_Pincup]

How is this incoherent and how is he lying?

He doesn't what to say "this is bad" but prefer to open situation where the player has something to think about. That doesn't mean that he want his game to say nothing.

At best you could criticize him for failing to take a stand.

 

[Sad Affleck]

It doesn't really matter whether he wants it to be political or not, the subject matter itself makes it political.

 

[Frozenprince]

Marilyn Manson is the last person you should be talking too about interpreting art considering how constantly he flip flops on shit whenever some bad shit happened and he was associated with it.

 

[hesido]

* The game is political and he denies it => David Cage is a hack and does not deserve the moneys.

How?

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

How is this incoherent and how is he lying?

He doesn't what to say "this is bad" but prefer to open situation where the player has something to think about. That doesn't mean that he want his game to say nothing.

At best you could criticize him for failing to take a stand.

David Cage e3 2017:

Despite this, however, director David Cage told me that he’s not trying to make a game with an overtly political message, nor is he heavily drawing on real world history or politics as influences.

“The story I’m telling is really about androids,” he told me in an interview after the demo. “They’re discovering emotions and wanting to be free. If people want to see parallels with this or that, that’s fine with me. But my story’s about androids who want to be free.”

Okay, so the story is about androids alone I guess (whatever that means) ri-

e3 2016:

GamesBeat: As you alluded to, there have been a lot of stories about this subject, about androids and artificial life. Was it difficult to come up with a unique storyline here, where you’re doing something original?

Cage: Not really, because my story isn’t so much about A.I. and technology. I know it may sound a little abstract to say it that way, but the story isn’t about that. It’s about humans, emotions, feelings, and identity. I never felt I was telling that story in particular.

Last year, he specifically said his game had little to do with technology. This year the answer is a little bit different...

 

[UrbanRats]

Everything is political to an extent, whether you want it or not.