• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

G20 Hamburg Summit - Hype Thread!

The big problem with peaceful protesters are that often some of the block are mixing with them, throwing shit from those positions and then making the peaceful ones look like violent ones.

At which point it becomes the responsibility of the peaceful protesters to confront the bb. Not in a fight of course but to deny them the protection and anonymity of the crowd.
However, how the police handled the camps etc (which didn't prevent anything in hindsight) created a lot of anger in the whole crowd so that's not exactly helping.

Though I also had more the situations in mind in which the the criminal protestors are mainly among themselves only. Like in the looting or open fights with the police during the night. Those situations should allow for some more effective methods due to lower risk of injuring innocent bystanders.
 

El-Suave

Member
At which point it becomes the responsibility of the peaceful protesters to confront the bb. Not in a fight of course but to deny them the protection and anonymity of the crowd.

That almost never works. You have that discussion constantly in the relative small microcosm of football fans. Very rarely with the desired results. In the heat of the moment the feeling of "us" vs. "them" is stronger, especially if there is such a strong and heavily armored police force.
 

Condom

Member
200k? What
I'm middle in the protest right now and that's the figure I got from other people. I personally thought the organizers said 90-100k idk.

It's a lot at least. Anyway 0 violence up until now and a great atmosphere.
 

cyba89

Member
GIbaYqa.jpg


I'm sure these people were very happy these rioters where just "stress testing the police" to make sure democracy functions.

No problem. Insurance will cover everything and in a week the shop will be as good as new.

/s
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
I'm middle in the protest right now and that's the figure I got from other people. I personally thought the organizers said 90-100k idk.

It's a lot at least. Anyway 0 violence up until now and a great atmosphere.
Police are saying 22k at "Grenzenlose Solidarität statt G20" and "Hamburg zeigt Haltung" had 10k.

edit: Definitely looks like way more than 22k.
 
Oh OK. I thought they were riled up on something specific.

Thanks.
That's the problem with these G20 protests. There is no real goal. Being against G20? OK... and then what? It would be a lot more effective and useful if the organizers would at least have a message to tell.
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
That's the problem with these G20 protests. There is no real goal. Being against G20? OK... and then what? It would be a lot more effective and useful if the organizers would at least have a message to tell.
But they do. It gets overshadowed by riots, that's the problem.
 

Condom

Member
That's the problem with these G20 protests. There is no real goal. Being against G20? OK... and then what? It would be a lot more effective and useful if the organizers would at least have a message to tell.
There is a clear goal: more leftist policies on every front. The social alternative to rightwing mantra. I can't believe someone can look at the protest sings and not be sure what people are advocating for.
 
But they do. It gets overshadowed by riots, that's the problem.

There is a clear goal: more leftist policies on every front. The social alternative to rightwing mantra. I can't believe someone can look at the protest sings and not be sure what people are advocating for.
These are not goals though. I get it, you are protesting because you want a better world. All very reasonable. But because it is such a broad thing, it basically is about everything, and because of that at the same time about nothing.

I think targeted protests for clear goals are more effective.
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
These are not goals though. I get it, you are protesting because you want a better world. All very reasonable. But because it is such a broad thing, it basically is about everything, and because of that at the same time about nothing.

I think targeted protests for clear goals are more effective.
You don't know what you're talking about, there are very clear goals that are being advertised by different protesters. Gotta read and watch more carefully.
 
You don't know what you're talking about, there are very clear goals that are being advertised by different protesters. Gotta read and watch more carefully.
Can you please point me to the clear goals these protests are about? Because in the last 14 pages I have only read very general terms. What are the specific issues these protesters are trying to get attention for?

I am reading multiple major newspapers here every day and not a single one has named any specifics about the protests, so at least the way they are organised is not very effective in getting attention to their issues.
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
Dude, just watch a stream, read some signs, follow it on twitter or read their organizer statements and so on. I can't summarize thousands of different people for you.
 
Can you please point me to the clear goals these protests are about? Because in the last 14 pages I have only read very general terms. What are the specific issues these protesters are trying to get attention for?

I am reading multiple major newspapers here every day and not a single one has named any specifics about the protests, so at least the way they are organised is not very effective in getting attention to their issues.

this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ot2UhYQiC8U
 
Dude, just watch a stream, read some signs, follow it on twitter or read their organizer statements and so on. I can't summarize thousands of different people for you.
Which is proofing my point. There are thousands of different messages, no clear goal.

I ask what you are protesting for, and you say "look it up". If there was a goal in mind, it would be a very easy question to answer.

Protesting is a good thing, but when your message is unclear or does not reach the public, it is ineffective. Better to narrow your protest goals so people can actually understand what it is you want to achieve.
 

Oersted

Member
Which is proofing my point. There are thousands of different messages, no clear goal.

I ask what you are protesting for, and you say "look it up". If there was a goal in mind, it would be a very easy question to answer.

And that is why the media focusses on violence. Much easier to consume
 
You don't know what you're talking about, there are very clear goals that are being advertised by different protesters. Gotta read and watch more carefully.

You guys are talking about two different things.
There were many targeted protests with a clear message and a clear goal.
But as long as they stay peaceful and don't cause any disruptions they largely go unnoticed.

Which is the reason why more extreme forms of protests developed on the left.
And one example for the more extreme forms of protests are the black block people.
They are largely apolitical, they don't have a message and the participants see it rather as a sport or a hobby to go crazy and destroy things. They're actually quite similar to football hooligans.



I personally always supported the left wing protests at these kinds of events. The general message was that world politics lack compassion and solidarity and that corporate interests weigh more than peoples interests.
Bottom line: People want a more social form of capitalism.

However, I think in recent years we've seen the rise of much more sophisticated threats from the right.
Rising nationalism threatens the very core values of the liberal west.
Thats a much more urgent issue we have to deal with than the structural flaws of our implementation of global capital.
In fact, I see some overlapping between Trump-brand nationalist populism and left wing populism, and thats not good at all.
 

TTOOLL

Member
Man, I can't take these spoiled brats rioting and breaking other people stuff. Fuck them.

Also, I imagine lots of them filmed their actions with their iPhones and posted on social media like Twitter or Facebook. Fuck them capitalist pigs, right??
 

oti

Banned
Merkel's closing statement live now.

Merkel achieved the 19 vs. 1 situation regarding climate many people asked from her.

Everyone vs. US.
 

Pezking

Member
Can you please point me to the clear goals these protests are about? Because in the last 14 pages I have only read very general terms. What are the specific issues these protesters are trying to get attention for?

I don't know if you speak german, but the newspaper Die Zeit recently published a very informative article regarding this:

http://www.zeit.de/2017/28/kapitalismuskritik-g20-proteste-linke-marxismus

There are a lot of divergent ideas within the political left and behind the protests.
Some want peaceful and democratic reforms, some just want to see the capitalistic world burn to the ground.
If those violent protesters follow a political idea, it's certainly the latter one.
 

oti

Banned
Merkel: "At this time I do not share [May's optimism] that the US could return to the Paris Climate Accord."
 

pulsemyne

Member
Merkel: "At this time I do not share [May's optimism] that the US could return to the Paris Climate Accord."

I wouldn't touch anything May says with a ten billion mile barge poll. Her entire party is currently plotting to throw her out.
 
Man, I can't take these spoiled brats rioting and breaking other people stuff. Fuck them.

Also, I imagine lots of them filmed their actions with their iPhones and posted on social media like Twitter or Facebook. Fuck them capitalist pigs, right??

It's really superfluous.
 

oti

Banned
Merkel was asked about Ivanka. Delegations decide who they send to those sessions. The US chose Ivanka for that session.

A very "I don't care" response from Merkel.

Russia's propaganda dog Sputnik asked a question lol.
 

Eylos

Banned
Man, I can't take these spoiled brats rioting and breaking other people stuff. Fuck them.

Also, I imagine lots of them filmed their actions with their iPhones and posted on social media like Twitter or Facebook. Fuck them capitalist pigs, right??
So comunists must Live naked on the street? I'm not entering the protests question, If a Rich kid IS an anarchist, socialist whatever he has no right to be anticapitalist, because like everyone he has capitalists goods?

The cellphone was made by workers not by the capitalism like magic.

The only good argument i heard about iPhones and anticapitalists, that i agree, its as a communist or anarchist its incoeherent to support a Company that super explore the workers and leads them to suicide.

About the protests i havent read anything about that yet to have an opinion.
 

Kinyou

Member
So comunists must Live naked on the street? I'm not entering the protests question, If a Rich kid IS an anarchist, socialist whatever he has no right to be anticapitalist, because like everyone he has capitalists goods?

The cellphone was made by workers not by the capitalism like magic.

The only good argument i heard about iPhones and anticapitalists, that i agree, its as a communist or anarchist its incoeherent to support a Company that super explore the workers and leads them to suicide.

About the protests i havent read anything about that yet to have an opinion.
An iPhone is a luxury item, it's not essential to live, made by a company that embraces capitalism to the fullest. This is like a vegan eating a steak.
 

sphagnum

Banned
An iPhone is a luxury item, it's not essential to live, made by a company that embraces capitalism to the fullest. This is like a vegan eating a steak.

Communists don't have anything against luxury items. They just don't like that they are produced in an environment where the workers don't own the means of production.

Do you think the goal of communism is to create a world of ascetics or something?
 

Condom

Member
You are only a non hypocritical communist when you go full hippie, I will then call you a useless backwards hippie
 
I don't know if you speak german, but the newspaper Die Zeit recently published a very informative article regarding this:

http://www.zeit.de/2017/28/kapitalismuskritik-g20-proteste-linke-marxismus

There are a lot of divergent ideas within the political left and behind the protests.
Some want peaceful and democratic reforms, some just want to see the capitalistic world burn to the ground.
If those violent protesters follow a political idea, it's certainly the latter one.
Google Translate does a reasonable enough job and better then my high school German.

The left has always been divided, and these protests once again show it. Makes it hard for them to actually get into power and get something done also. Certainly when some groups want such radical change, that you basically need to throw the current system away - which will make life a lot worse for a lot of people even if your aim long term is to make it better. That is going to be a very hard sell at the voting booth.

Communists don't have anything against luxury items. They just don't like that they are produced in an environment where the workers don't own the means of production.

Do you think the goal of communism is to create a world of ascetics or something?
Sure, but when you then buy literally one of the most expensive luxury products available instead of a cheaper alternative, you can be made fun of for a bit.
 

GAMEPROFF

Banned
Sure, but when you then buy literally one of the most expensive luxury products available instead of a cheaper alternative, you can be made fun of for a bit.

Depends. I agree with anyone in this thread that it may be strange when you look at the production problems at Foxcon, but a lot of other firm policies are appealing to apple, like a strong focus on privacy inside the device (Hardware encryption), use of renewable energies and Apples recycling programs. I can see a lot of that stuff beeing in line with political ideas these people have.
 

Kinyou

Member
Communists don't have anything against luxury items. They just don't like that they are produced in an environment where the workers don't own the means of production.

Do you think the goal of communism is to create a world of ascetics or something?
I didn't say it's hypocritical solely because it's luxury, it's hypocritical because you buy an item you don't really need from a company which stands for capitalism.
 

sphagnum

Banned
True. My wife witnessed this first hand while growing up in the GDR. She just had to look at the lifestyle of the party elite while standing in line for bread.

The failure of Marxist-Leninist command economies doesn't invalidate what I said. That's an issue with production, not an issue with what communists actually want.

I didn't say it's hypocritical solely because it's luxury, it's hypocritical because you buy an item you don't really need from a company which stands for capitalism.

All companies stand for capitalism and cell phones are more or less a necessity in the modern world.
 

Tovarisc

Member

Kinyou

Member
All companies stand for capitalism and cell phones are more or less a necessity in the modern world.
So you buy one of the most expensive ones, which in turn means more support and power for the company?
And I'd say it's only a necessity if you're unwilling to make sacrifices.
 

Condom

Member
This is embarrassing. Socialist theory is about systems, not buying green vegan gluten free fair phones. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
 

sphagnum

Banned
So you buy one of the most expensive ones, which in turn means more support and power for the company?

Individual boycotts do nothing and no amount of boycotting would force a phone company to hand over power to its workers, so it doesn't really matter. It also could be a gift. Frankly I don't really care since any phone purchase will benefit some capitalist organizaton. Unless there is some co-op phone company that I am unaware of.

The selfie is the stupid part.
 

Kinyou

Member
Individual boycotts do nothing and no amount of boycotting would force a phone company to hand over power to its workers, so it doesn't really matter. It also could be a gift. Frankly I don't really care since any phone purchase will benefit some capitalist organizaton. Unless there is some co-op phone company that I am unaware of.

The selfie is the stupid part.
So because you don't expect much change from a boycott you instead lean in 100% into the system? This doesn't come of as very determined to me.
 
D

Deleted member 10571

Unconfirmed Member

No idea who that guy is, but given by this excerpt from his website

We Are Change is comprised of independent journalists, concerned citizens, activists, and anyone who wants to shape the direction our world is going in. We seek to expose the lies of governments and the corporate elite who constantly trash our humanity. By asking the hard questions the mainstream media refuses to ask, we shine a little more light on truth

I'll go ahead and say it might be a stupid idea to go into a black bloc/antifa crowd in Germany, given the well-known keywording of this text that usually belongs to the right.

But yeah, no idea who the guy is, 'cause you gave no context. I might be completely wrong.
 
Top Bottom