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[sphagnum]

So because you don't expect much change from a boycott you instead lean in 100% into the system? This doesn't come of as very determined to me.

I already answered this basically and so did Condom. Leftists aren't monks. You could extrapolate this to literally anything. Communists can't enjoy Nintendo games! Communists can't buy new laptops! Etc. Going by that logic liberals shouldnt either due to the amount of conflict minerals used in electronics.

If he was trying to separate himself from exploitation he'd have to go be a peasant farmer on an unspoiled plot of land somewhere.

 

[SolidusDave]

Can you please point me to the clear goals these protests are about? Because in the last 14 pages I have only read very general terms. What are the specific issues these protesters are trying to get attention for?

I am reading multiple major newspapers here every day and not a single one has named any specifics about the protests, so at least the way they are organised is not very effective in getting attention to their issues.

Yep, even if there are concrete demands and proposed solutions (destroy the capitalist world!!!11 is not one), the ONLY message that has reached the mainstream audience EVERY TIME is that these people are "anti G20".

Which by itself means as much as being e.g. "anti-UN"...
Cool. Wait, why are you trashing my Volvo again?


I mean, I'm ready to learn about the anti-G20 success stories - but it does not work. Or actually, the G20 politics ARE getting more social, but that is not because of the protests (especially not the violent ones) but because of the individual countries and progress in societies.
If anything, people should focus their protests on the couple of countries who still do not want to play ball (see the consensus on e.g. climate change).


I just feels like there are very different views about what the G20 meeting is. Based on the protests (again - as their actual agenda doesn't come across), the left views it as some sort of unholy alliance of vampires that plot how to create more suffering while laughing hysterically.

Even the non-inclusive argument is weak. After all it's not just the top 19 countries but e.g. EU and Singapore are representing also the interests of all EU members and the 30 or so small 3G countries.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

You are aware there's more than just one big demonstration right?

2. Juli
► Demo „Protestwelle G20 – Wir fordern: Demokratie sichern, Klimawandel stoppen, für einen fairen Welthandel”, 10.30 bis 17 Uhr Rathausmarkt bis Heiligengeistfeld
► Wasserdemo, 10 bis 15 Uhr, Außenalster, Binnenalster
► Demo „Für eine faire Globalisierung”, 10 bis 11 Uhr, Gerhart-Hauptmann-Platz, Rathausmarkt

4. bis 8. Juli
► Dauerdemo „Solidarische Oase Gänge­viertel – Für grenzenlose Bewegungsfreiheit”, Gängeviertel

5. Juli
► Mahnwache „Welcome China”, 9 bis 21 Uhr, Hotel „Grand Elysee” (auch am 6. Juli)
► Demo „Lieber tanz' ich als G20 – Alles Allen, Nachttanzdemonstration”, 17.15 Uhr bis 22.15 Uhr, Landungsbrücken, Schulterblatt, Valentinskamp

6. Juli
► Demo „Bridges to Humanity”, 19 bis 21 Uhr, an der Kennedybrücke
► Demo „Für eine solidarische Welt – gegen den G20-Gipfel in Hamburg!”, 15.30 bis 22.20 Uhr, Fischmarkt, Schlump, Grindelallee, Millerntorplatz
► Mahnwache „USA: Brücken bauen statt Mauern!”, 9 bis 17 Uhr, Jungfernstieg (auch am 7. Juli)

7. Juli
► Allgemeine G20-Mahnwache, ab 10 Uhr, Nähe Messehallen (auch am 8. Juli)
► Mahnwache „Infrastructure to the people!!”, 4 bis 18 Uhr, Kreuzung Valentinskamp/Caffa­macherreihe
► Demo „Gay20-Gipfel. Für die globalen Menschenrechte von LGBT!”, 18 bis 19.30 Uhr, Gerhart-Hauptmann-Platz
► Demo „One World – One vibe!”, 16 bis 23 Uhr, Spielbudenplatz (auch am 8. Juli)
► Demo „Solidarität statt G20”, 10 bis 13 Uhr, Hachmannplatz, Jungfernstieg, Allendeplatz
► Mahnwache „Menschenrechtsverletzungen im besetzten Teil von Kaschmir”, 11 bis 16 Uhr, Ottenser Hauptstraße
► Demo „Revolutionäre Anti-G20-Demo, G20 entern – Kapitalismus versenken”, 19.30 bis 24 Uhr, Reeperbahn, Jungfernstieg, Millerntorplatz

8. Juli
► Demo „G20 – not welcome!”, 13 bis 23 Uhr, Deichtorplatz, Ost-West-Straße, Reeperbahn, Millerntorplatz
► Demo „Hamburg zeigt Haltung”, 11.30 bis 15 Uhr, Katharinenkirchhof, Große Elbstraße

Missing the big 'Welcome to hell" demo and some smaller ones because Bild is a scum piece of shit paper, but the first I found.

Go run this through Google Translate if that stops your ignorancy of thousands of legit people on the streets.

 

[cameron]

No idea who that guy is, but given by this excerpt from his website



I'll go ahead and say it might be a stupid idea to go into a black bloc/antifa crowd in Germany, given the well-known keywording of this text that usually belongs to the right.

But yeah, no idea who the guy is, 'cause you gave no context. I might be completely wrong.

They're a trashy attention seeking group of people.

In May 2017, Lauren Southern took part in a demonstration with the Identitarian movement, when she tried to block the passage of an NGO ship which they mistakenly claimed was carrying migrants to Sicily. The ship was used for SOS Mediterranée and Doctors without Borders for search and rescue operations.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

They're a trashy attention seeking group of people.

I figured, and thus I won't give a shit about that poor, poor man knowing exactly what he got into.

 

[gutter_trash]

there protesters are rioters and anti-capitalist anarchist nut jobs.

there is no place and no defense for this extermism

 

[Randam]

The hell is wrong with people
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vpJwfTYtJ0&feature=youtu.be

Yeah, who besides Trump uses "fakenews"?

 

[SolidusDave]

You are aware there's more than just one big demonstration right?



Go run this through Google Translate if that stops your ignorancy of thousands of legit people on the streets.

No need, I'm German.

1x secure democracy + stop climate change + fair trade
1x drinking water
1x fair globalization
1x free movement
1x pro China
6x anti-G20
3x connect humanity
1x infrastructure for people
1x global LGBT rights
1x human rights violations in Kashmir
1x Hamburg's stand

Ignoring that the biggest common topic is indeed "anti-G20" - only a few of those topics are really relevant for what the point of the G20 meeting is. And I'm pretty sure the current G20 are not opposed climate change etc.
They could do more on certain issues, I'm not debating that. Though as I wrote before, if one uses the international stage for protests then it would be more effective to shame specifically the countries that are the worst offenders in these topics (e.g. USA for climate change or Russia for LGBT) to avoid being labeled anti-G20.

I also don't see how this goes against anything I said.... You will read none of these topics in the news, only anti-G20.

 

[gutter_trash]

Yeah, who besides Trump uses "fakenews"?

anarchists, anti-capitalists, and anti-globalists

anti establisment extremism isn't exclussive to the Far-Right, the horshoe effect joins the Far-Left to them

 

[Dynasty]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MKZUjpqgRo4

From the description.

While in Hamburg for the G20 #WelcomToHell protests Antifa aligned individuals posted photos of me and several other people while trying to identify Lauren Southern. This resulted in innocent bystanders getting attacked simply for being in the foreground of a photo of Southern. Three journalists including Luke Rudkowski of WeAreChange were beaten and at least one was told they would be killed if they didn't leave.

Video includes one of the guys who got beat up as well talkin about what happened.

 

[Theonik]

An iPhone is a luxury item, it's not essential to live, made by a company that embraces capitalism to the fullest. This is like a vegan eating a steak.

These posts read like basically:

And whoever said communism was even about eliminating waste and/or ascetic lifestyles. It is simply about nationalising the means of production as a means to distribute wealth to the populace.
It's not a great way of achieving that goal though and like Anarchism was designed for a time where attacking landed interests with shivs seemed preferable.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

These posts read like basically:


And whoever said communism was even about eliminating waste and/or ascetic lifestyles. It is simply about nationalising the means of production as a means to distribute wealth to the populace.

I think all utilities should be socialised. Use tax money for a renewable energy power grid and eliminate your power bill.

Same with the internet. As soon as we have full renewable infinite power it should be socialised or be zero cost.

Same with phones and data, govt investment and make it free.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

These posts read like basically:


And whoever said communism was even about eliminating waste and/or ascetic lifestyles. It is simply about nationalising the means of production as a means to distribute wealth to the populace.
It's not a great way of achieving that goal though and like Anarchism was designed for a time where attacking landed interests with shivs seemed preferable.

I laughed at "checkvs matvs"

 

[ClosingADoor]

The hell is wrong with people
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vpJwfTYtJ0&feature=youtu.be

Waiting for the people to excuse this, just some nice folks who are blowing off steam by attacking people, stalking them and threatening to kill them.

They're a trashy attention seeking group of people.

I figured, and thus I won't give a shit about that poor, poor man knowing exactly what he got into.

And there they are. You are seriously excusing the beating up of someone in the streets, harassment through social media and threatening worse violence? Just... why?

You are aware there's more than just one big demonstration right?

[...]

Missing the big 'Welcome to hell" demo and some smaller ones because Bild is a scum piece of shit paper, but the first I found.

Go run this through Google Translate if that stops your ignorancy of thousands of legit people on the streets.

So you are posting about 2 dozen protests, ranging from subjects like humanitarian aid to globalization to anti-G20 to human rights, etc, etc. And then you are calling the people that say there is no clear message coming from these G20 protests ignorant.

One of the problems is that there are so many different protests, that nobody has a clue anyone what they are all about. It gets drowned out in the noise because there is no clear message.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

So you are posting about 2 dozen protests, ranging from subjects like humanitarian aid to globalization to anti-G20 to human rights, etc, etc. And then you are calling the people that say there is no clear message coming from these G20 protests ignorant.

I don't, and that's not what was said. I'm calling ignorance on saying "Anti G20" is "THE ONLY" message that "THESE PEOPLE" promote", which is untrue and, well, incredibly ignorant.

 

[Violet_0]

What are they protesting?

windows

 

[cameron]

And there they are. You are seriously excusing the beating up of someone in the streets, harassment through social media and threatening worse violence? Just... why?

I'm not excusing anything. Do you need people to explicitly condemn harassment and violence every single time? It's a given. I'm providing info on what that specific group people like to do with their free time.

Are you seriously a fan of their trashy antics? Just... why?

 

[ClosingADoor]

I'm not excusing anything. Do you need people to explicitly condemn harassment and violence every single time? It's a given. I'm providing info on what that specific group people like to do with their free time.

Are you seriously a fan of their trashy antics? Just... why?

You wording of them being "attention seeking" made it sound like they were asking for it or something.

 

[chugen]

fuuuuuuck communism

 

[chadskin]

https://twitter.com/brdn/status/883804241487425540

damn son

 

[Xando]

https://twitter.com/brdn/status/883804241487425540

damn son

That one guy forget his work shoes

 

[Oersted]

Waiting for the people to excuse this, just some nice folks who are blowing off steam by attacking people, stalking them and threatening to kill them.




And there they are. You are seriously excusing the beating up of someone in the streets, harassment through social media and threatening worse violence? Just... why?


So you are posting about 2 dozen protests, ranging from subjects like humanitarian aid to globalization to anti-G20 to human rights, etc, etc. And then you are calling the people that say there is no clear message coming from these G20 protests ignorant.

One of the problems is that there are so many different protests, that nobody has a clue anyone what they are all about. It gets drowned out in the noise because there is no clear message.

Streamlining protests to have a message which can be more easily sold. Capitalism is truly unstoppable.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Streamlining protests to have a message which can be more easily sold. Capitalism is truly unstoppable.

If effective communication is a capitalist exclusive thing, no wonder communism never took off.

 

[Oersted]

If effective communication is a capitalist exclusive thing, no wonder communism never took off.

Democracy and therefore protests was always a mix of voices and opinions. News at 11 I guess.

 

[El-Suave]

Crazy - on one hand police is rightfully complaining about riot tourists who were semi partying hoping to see some action up close and they ask people to stop filming. A few hours later they're asking for everybody to upload their cellphone pictures and videos. While understandable, you can't really have both.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Democracy and therefore protests was always a mix of voices and opinions. News at 11 I guess.

Sure, but it's not really effective this way, which was my point. Don't know what that had to do with capitalism.

Crazy - on one hand police is rightfully complaining about riot tourists who were semi partying hoping to see some action up close and they ask people to stop filming. A few hours later they're asking for everybody to upload their cellphone pictures and videos. While understandable, you can't really have both.

Probably asked to stop filming and get out of the way I guess, not stop filming and hang around. If the images are recorded, very normal to ask for them.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Sure, but it's not really effective this way, which was my point. Don't know what that had to do with capitalism.

To be fair, no protest at the G20 would've been effective in any way.
Now everyone is talking about the riots and is ignoring the other protests.
But if it weren't for the riots the other protests would've been ignored just the same.

 

[Oersted]

Sure, but it's not really effective this way, which was my point. Don't know what that had to do with capitalism.


Probably asked to stop filming and get out of the way I guess, not stop filming and hang around. If the images are recorded, very normal to ask for them.

Policing demonstrations based on their effectiveness is a bit anti-democratic.

 

[CortexVortex]

Today, thousands came together to clean up the streets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9qR57duSBk

Sorry, the Video is in German. It basically started as a small facebook event and went viral. Things like that make me love Hamburg even more.

 

[Kinyou]

Policing demonstrations based on their effectiveness is a bit anti-democratic.

How in the world is that anti-democratic? No one is denying them their right to protest, just pointing out that it's not very effective

 

[Shiggy]

Today, thousands came together to clean up the streets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9qR57duSBk

Sorry, the Video is in German. It basically started as a small facebook event and went viral. Things like that make me love Hamburg even more.

Also:

https://twitter.com/mopo/status/883755584780107778

https://twitter.com/DnlEvrtz/status/883705022147645442

https://twitter.com/jan_boettner/status/883746630402539521

 

[ClosingADoor]

Policing demonstrations based on their effectiveness is a bit anti-democratic.

You and I have very different understandings of the word 'anti-democratic' then. Having an opinion about protests is not anti-democratic.

 

[Oersted]

You and I have very different understandings of the word 'anti-democratic' then. Having an opinion about protests is not anti-democratic.

Protests don't have to have a clear message. There isn't a level of "quality" in messaging that has to be uphold.

The majority of the protests had a clear message. Having to look those messages up simply indicates the media focussed on something else, the violence.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Protests don't have to have a clear message. There isn't a level of "quality" in messaging that has to be uphold.

The majority of the protests had a clear message. Having to look those messages up simply indicates the media focussed on something else, the violence.

And I never said they have to do it a certain way. I am saying it would probably be more effective and gather more coverage if there was a more centralized message, instead of dividing everything up and protesting about general things that people can't really feel a connection to.

 

[Theonik]

And I never said they have to do it a certain way. I am saying it would probably be more effective and gather more coverage if there was a more centralized message, instead of dividing everything up and protesting about general things that people can't really feel a connection to.

That would require protests to be organised which defeats part of the point.

 

[ClosingADoor]

That would require protests to be organised which defeats part of the point.

Pretty much every large protest is organized though. Certainly around the G20. Those are not spontaneous events from the local people there.

 

[Oersted]

And I never said they have to do it a certain way. I am saying it would probably be more effective and gather more coverage if there was a more centralized message, instead of dividing everything up and protesting about general things that people can't really feel a connection to.

2 years ago, there was the grand opening of the new European Central Bank building. There was one large, centralized protest with over 20 000 participants.

It was peaceful and had one message.

They were fully ignored.

 

[Theonik]

2 years ago, there was the grand opening of the new European Central Bank building. There was one large, centralized protest with over 20 000 participants.

It was peaceful and had one message.

They were fully ignored.

I have vague memories of that. Must have been around the time I lived in Frankfurt.

Pretty much every large protest is organized though. Certainly around the G20. Those are not spontaneous events from the local people there.

Well in this case it was several small organised protests trying to use the coverage from the G20 to get their message across. The problem with that though is when the media is not willing to let that happen.

 

[Steel]

2 years ago, there was the grand opening of the new European Central Bank building. There was one large, centralized protest with over 20 000 participants.

It was peaceful and had one message.

They were fully ignored.

Most protests are ignored, honestly. Even the violent ones are forgotten in a month or two.

 

[ClosingADoor]

2 years ago, there was the grand opening of the new European Central Bank building. There was one large, centralized protest with over 20 000 participants.

It was peaceful and had one message.

They were fully ignored.

I don't really know what you expect is going to happen. It's not like you protest and then things suddenly change. 20.000 people is nice, but the Eurozone is like 300 million people in total.

You protest, you use it as a way to spread your message and the hopefully either the protest is large enough that the people in power directly take action (for example things like strikes with government organisations or mass protests throughout the country) or that it influences future voter behavior.

With these G20 protests, the messaging is unclear which makes it harder for media to cover and for people to understand your aims.

Well in this case it was several small organised protests trying to use the coverage from the G20 to get their message across. The problem with that though is when the media is not willing to let that happen.

I don't think this is a case of the media having some agenda to not cover it though. It is that other events (the riots and actual G20 stuff) overshadow it, and because of the multiple aims of different protests, it is harder to cover what exactly is the issue. The media is lazy in that, most outlets won't go out and try to help you spread your message, so you need to organize in such a way that it makes it interesting for them to cover.

 

[Shiggy]

For very obvious reasons violent protests/scenes like in a civil war gain more media attention than peaceful protests. Most media also reported about the peaceful protests, but there's not really much newsworthy about them as they don't really have any larger impact.

At the same time, violent clashes may not be the best way to get a message across when the majority of the population isn't backing your ideals to the slightest, which is the case with the left-wing extremists we saw in Hamburg.

 

[Oersted]

I don't really know what you expect is going to happen. It's not like you protest and then things suddenly change. 20.000 people is nice, but the Eurozone is like 300 million people in total.

You protest, you use it as a way to spread your message and the hopefully either the protest is large enough that the people in power directly take action (for example things like strikes with government organisations or mass protests throughout the country) or that it influences future voter behavior.

Are you just randomly rambling words in hope something sticks? Leave that to Shiggy.

You asked for centralized protests with one clear message. I gave you one of many examples. Thats it. What you are trying to debate now is a entirely new can of worms which wasn't part of the conversation.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Are you just randomly rambling words in hope something sticks? Leave that to Shiggy.

You asked for centralized protests with one clear message. I gave you one of many examples. Thats it. What you are trying to debate now is a entirely new can of worms which wasn't part of the conversation.

My whole point all this time has been: these G20 protest are not doing anything, partly because it is so unclear what they actually want and the protests are divided in all kind of subjects lacking a clear message.

Apparently according to other posters - including you - that thought is undemocratic, having a more clear message is unstoppable capitalism and the messages are clear when you look them up, but nobody could still tell me what it is all about.

If you are talking about rambling words, maybe look above at your own posts that make little sense about what we were discussing.

 

[Oersted]

My whole point all this time has been: these G20 protest are not doing anything, partly because it is so unclear what they actually want and the protests are divided in all kind of subjects lacking a clear message.

Apparently according to other posters - including you - that thought is undemocratic, having a more clear message is unstoppable capitalism and the messages are clear when you look them up, but nobody could still tell me what it is all about.

If you are talking about rambling words, maybe look above at your own posts that make little sense about what we were discussing.

There were multiple large demonstrations with clear message being almost completely ignored.

You want one single large demonstration with one single streamlined message, which obviously would have been ignored.

Okay. Guys like you doom us all, but okay.

 

[ClosingADoor]

There were multiple large demonstrations with clear message being almost completely ignored.

You want one single large demonstration with one single streamlined message, which obviously would have been ignored.

Okay. Guys like you doom us all, but okay.

I don't get why you find this such a big deal. Yes, one large demonstration with a more clear message is more effective then multiple smaller demonstrations with multiple messages. I don't get why you think that is such a bad thing to say, and even framing it like this is an "undemocratic" opinion that "dooms us all".

Those multiple large demonstrations also did not reach a wider audience around the world. I am not saying I like that, I am saying that because those demonstrations always fail around these kind of events, it is probably a smarter idea to organize in a more effective way instead of just blaming the media or "guys like me" apparently.

 

[Oersted]

I don't get why you find this such a big deal. Yes, one large demonstration with a more clear message is more effective then multiple smaller demonstrations with multiple messages. I don't get why you think that is such a bad thing to say, and even framing it like this is an "undemocratic" opinion that "dooms us all".

Those multiple large demonstrations also did not reach a wider audience around the world. I am not saying I like that, I am saying that because those demonstrations always fail around these kind of events, it is probably a smarter idea to organize in a more effective way instead of just blaming the media or "guys like me" apparently.

First of all, I have to apologize. I read it as a delegimatizing attempt towards the protests. Sorry for that.

Secondly, out of experience I can tell you one large and streamlined demonstration would have been ignored too.

 

[Shiggy]

Somebody had started a petition to change the building, which is squatted by left extremists and which is one of the left extremist centres in Germany, into a kindergarten as the building is owned by the city of Hamburg. According to Timo Lokoschat, head of SPIEGEL Daily, the person who started the petition has withdrawn said petition due to massive threats and defamation.

https://twitter.com/Lokoschat/status/884811276521803779


Left and right extremists aren't too different after all. Hopefully politicians start to fight against both now.

 

[Muffin1611]

Left and right extremists aren't too different after all. Hopefully politicians start to fight against both now.

Ummm, which of both is the government not fighting against enough exactly?

 

[Shiggy]

Ummm, which of both is the government not fighting against enough exactly?

If you look at what went down last weekend and the existence of extremist centres such as Rote Flora, where their lawyer even said that he sympathises with the rioters even though they should have gone to wealthy districts, if you look at former ministers such as Schwesig saying that left extremism isn't really an issue, then you should know the answer.

Just imagine if Neonazis were allowed to have their center in some city-owned buildings with the police not interfering.

 

[Muffin1611]

Just imagine if Neonazis were allowed to have their center in some city-owned buildings with the police not interfering.

No, instead of that they're getting paid by the government as V-Männer.

Really now? I mean, I too think that both extremist sides share some similarities and need fighting against.

But the data clearly shows that right extremism is the bigger problem. More crime etc. You can cite all anecdotes you want, for every burned car there is a burned refugee home somewhere.

This "hopefully politicans fight against both now" is downplaying that.