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[Nikana]

The DRM, which has actual issues, is part of the product.
People are rating the product appropriately.
The system is working as intended.

What issues? Genuinely curious.

 

[Minsc]

What issues? Genuinely curious.

- It exists at all yet was not described as being there on the product page (this has since been fixed and added to the product page).
- It prevented offline play (always on internet required, possibly also now fixed)
- It caused the game to be delayed 2 weeks so people who pre-ordered couldn't get refunds when they found out it was in the game.

Those are just a few I believe, there's probably others (you could probably argue it lowers the future compatibility of the game, and has the potential to cause issues with hardware changes, etc, basically any time anything goes wrong it very well could be the DRM responsible).

 

[PrimeBeef]

Some time ago Denuvo blocked me out of my legally bough copy of F1 2016 for two entire weeks for no reason at all, and I had the same problem but in a much smaller scale with Mad Max, and I gave them good reviews on Steam because, well, they are great games! But after that I decided to skip games with Denuvo because of the problems I had with it. I remember that they used to add a note on the store page about 3rd party DRMs, but I noticed that recently these companies started to not disclose this information, or disclosing only when the game is officially released.

I recently bought Dirt 4, another great game with a stupid encrypting/decrypting DRM that demands double its size from your HDD, which is really annoying when you have a tight disk, and takes forever to install a simple patch because of that. I mean, I love the game and I'm glad they made it, but we should stop thinking that these companies are doing us favors by making games we like, so I gave it a bad review even though I loved it. Then I bought F1 2017 and guess what? Denuvo, yay! I know, I know, should've expect that... It will get a bad review too. If they want to be anti-consumer, we the consumers should fight back.

The icing on the cake was delaying Sonic Mania (which I preordered) for two weeks to add Denuvo on it. Guys like Christian Whitehead and Tee Lopes should receive all the praising they can get, but I will give Sonic Mania a bad review too because Sega can go happily sit on a cactus.

Or you could not act like a petulant child and just not buy those games.

 

[Miniature Kaiju]

Torpedoing a game that might otherwise be great because you don't agree with the way in which the publisher has chosen to protect their investment doesn't feel like the way we should be going about things to me.

Some games would be great if not for the game breaking bugs, if not for the microtransactions, if not for that one game mechanic that is garbage, etc.

The publisher decided to make DRM part of their game, they are cognizant that it interferes with the game experience (direct or indirectly).

Bad reviews are a consequence of their decisions. They can deal with the consequences however they see fit.

 

[Nekketsu Kõha]

Or you could not act like a petulant child and just not buy those games.

 

[Icedburden]

Yes, because giving a bad review to a good game, simply because you don't like the DRM, is intelligent and not immature.

 

[Temeculan3000]

I think the problem is that Steam reviews are really two things: Game reviews and product reviews.

Not only do they review the quality and content of the game itself, but they are also a review on the product. If a game has shitty netcode or bad servers, that has nothing to do with game content, but has a lot to do with the game as a product. DRM may have nothing to do with the quality of graphics, story, or game-play, but have a lot to do with the product itself if you are unable to launch the game.

Since Steam is not just a game review site but also a store-front, this is appropriate.

 

[Frozy]

Yes, because giving a bad review to a good game, simply because you don't like the DRM, is intelligent and not immature.

Yes, because commenting in a thread discussing the issue, without reading the detailed reasoning for the action, is intelligent and not premature.

But on a more serious note, i do recommend you go back and read a bit (because you do give the impression that you didn't), this has been discussed and yet people keep coming and bring this point up... we're going in circles.

 

[marmoka]

I think it's better not buying DRM games for PC and just getting the console version in these situations.

 

[Nikana]

- It exists at all yet was not described as being there on the product page (this has since been fixed and added to the product page).
- It prevented offline play (always on internet required, possibly also now fixed)
- It caused the game to be delayed 2 weeks so people who pre-ordered couldn't get refunds when they found out it was in the game.

Those are just a few I believe, there's probably others (you could probably argue it lowers the future compatibility of the game, and has the potential to cause issues with hardware changes, etc, basically any time anything goes wrong it very well could be the DRM responsible).

Is this proven or is this speculation by gaf?

And if your first two points have been fixed, then why do they matter?

 

[Stumpokapow]

With GOG I can download my games without needing any special software. Also GOG advertises no DRM. When you buy from GOG the only expectation is that they provide you a way to download the game.

Your original argument was that something has DRM if they can theoretically cut you off from your purchases after you pay but before you download.

Now your argument is that DRM means you download files through a client that is basically a wrapper for a web browser instead of a web browser itself.

Neither of these are DRM

With Steam the expectation is that you will have a valid account, an internet connection, and the Steam software installed for any game you want to play.

This is a separate third argument. I agree that games on Steam that have DRM do have DRM. I also agree that if you care about something being absolutely 100% DRM-free then you need to check a DRM-free wiki to verify the Steam version is DRM-free. Neither of these things mean that all games on Steam have DRM or that Steam is DRM.

Is this proven or is this speculation by gaf?

When the game gets a last minute two week delay on only one platform, has no apparent other issues, and the programmer complains the day the delay is announced about DRM, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to infer that the delay is connected to the DRM.

And if your first two points have been fixed, then why do they matter?

They mattered at the time the reviews were made? And it is very reasonable for people who find those things unacceptable to still be bothered even if they were fixed under intense pressure?

 

[thechristoph]

Of all my years of PC gaming, I have never had a problem with DRM. I do think it's a waste of money and resources, and ultimately futile as crackers will find a way through it. But it's never negatively affected me and it's never, and will never influence my personal purchasing decisions.

Threads like this feel entirely like sour grapes to me.

 

[Rellik]

I think it's better not buying DRM games for PC and just getting the console version in these situations.

So support the same pub/dev who put it in the PC copy and get an inferior version. Great move.

 

[Hektor]

Yes, because giving a bad review to a good game, simply because you don't like the DRM, is intelligent and not immature.

The 👏 delivery 👏 is 👏 part 👏 of 👏 the 👏 package

 

[MUnited83]

Or you could not act like a petulant child and just not buy those games.

Complaining about serious issues in a product" acting like a petulant child? Good to know.

 

[Sorcerer Supreme]

what i dont understand is why valve allows more DRM on top of steam already being DRM

 

[Nikana]

The 👏 delivery 👏 is 👏 part 👏 of 👏 the 👏 package

I think the point he/she just trying to make is that if you never see or are affected by the DRM then negativity reviewing the package simply because you don't like it is wrong.

 

[Z3M0G]

I'm amazed PC's even turn on anymore without internet connection...

Edit: I guess laptops are a thing that exist though... and people do play them on-the-go at times.

 

[Stone Ocean]

what i dont understand is why valve allows more DRM on top of steam already being DRM

Steam is not DRM, how many times does this need to be said?

 

[Nikana]

Your original argument was that something has DRM if they can theoretically cut you off from your purchases after you pay but before you download.

Now your argument is that DRM means you download files through a client that is basically a wrapper for a web browser instead of a web browser itself.

Neither of these are DRM



This is a separate third argument. I agree that games on Steam that have DRM do have DRM. I also agree that if you care about something being absolutely 100% DRM-free then you need to check a DRM-free wiki to verify the Steam version is DRM-free. Neither of these things mean that all games on Steam have DRM or that Steam is DRM.


When the game gets a last minute two week delay on only one platform, has no apparent other issues, and the programmer complains the day the delay is announced about DRM, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to infer that the delay is connected to the DRM.



They mattered at the time the reviews were made? And it is very reasonable for people who find those things unacceptable to still be bothered even if they were fixed under intense pressure?

It has performance issues on consoles though. Least Xbox and switch. Not sure bout PS4

 

[Nitpicker_Red]

Steam itself is draconian DRM.

Factually speaking, it isn't.

I think when people say that, they obviously mean Steam's DRM wrapper, not Steam the program itself.
And Denuvo's DRM is always a layer of reinforcement over another (Steam's) DRM.

 

[Stone Ocean]

I think when people say that, they obviously mean Steam's DRM wrapper, not Steam the program itself.
And Denuvo's DRM is always a layer of reinforcement over another (Steam's) DRM.

I don't see anything "obvious" about people saying Steam is DRM

Steam isn't DRM. DRM is a Steamworks feature. These are completely different things.

 

[c0Zm1c]

Of all my years of PC gaming, I have never had a problem with DRM. I do think it's a waste of money and resources, and ultimately futile as crackers will find a way through it. But it's never negatively affected me and it's never, and will never influence my personal purchasing decisions.

Threads like this feel entirely like sour grapes to me.

From the first sentence in the OP:

Some time ago Denuvo blocked me out of my legally bough copy of F1 2016 for two entire weeks for no reason at all, and I had the same problem but in a much smaller scale with Mad Max

There's a good reason for any sour grapes. I haven't had many problems with DRM either over the years, but we shouldn't play ignorant and pretend it can't cause issues.

 

[Nekketsu Kõha]

Of all my years of PC gaming, I have never had a problem with DRM. I do think it's a waste of money and resources, and ultimately futile as crackers will find a way through it. But it's never negatively affected me and it's never, and will never influence my personal purchasing decisions.

Threads like this feel entirely like sour grapes to me.

I can't play my copy of Batman Arkham Asylum ever again. Sour grape

 

[Duchess O'Death]

Never had a problem with DRM.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Of all my years of PC gaming, I have never had a problem with DRM. I do think it's a waste of money and resources, and ultimately futile as crackers will find a way through it. But it's never negatively affected me and it's never, and will never influence my personal purchasing decisions.

Threads like this feel entirely like sour grapes to me.

Try buying a copy of Dark Void Zero on Steam and see if you can actually activate it.

Just because you were never affected by it doesn't mean others haven't.

 

[Megatron]

Well, Sega announced the Sonic Mania delay just two days before the original release date, and never disclosed they would be adding Denuvo. That was really low. If I knew that it would have Denuvo, I'd skip it. This is so common that I should have learned to not preorder games anymore.

Steam allows returns though. So weren't you just able to cancel your pre order?

Isn't Denuvo commonly patched out at a later date after it's no longer effective? I doubt most people will go back and change their reviews. I wouldn't go this route, personally. Poor sales of Sonic on PC won't make Sega stop using Denuvo, it will make them stop releasing Sonic on PC.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Steam allows returns though. So weren't you just able to cancel your pre order?

No, because due the game being delayed by two weeks plus shenanigans with the free copy of Sonic 1 you got with the preorder you can't get automated refunds for it.

 

[LordKasual]

ITT we justify abusing review systems for the sake of making a statement

 

[MUnited83]

I think when people say that, they obviously mean Steam's DRM wrapper, not Steam the program itself.
And Denuvo's DRM is always a layer of reinforcement over another (Steam's) DRM.

That's never, ever, what they mean, since they automatically assume every game on Steam uses it.

ITT we justify abusing review systems for the sake of making a statement

? The reviews are reviews of products. DRM is part of the product. How is this "abuse"?

 

[Temeculan3000]

Your original argument was that something has DRM if they can theoretically cut you off from your purchases after you pay but before you download.

Now your argument is that DRM means you download files through a client that is basically a wrapper for a web browser instead of a web browser itself.

Neither of these are DRM

You can cherry pick games that happen to be DRM free, which is only discovered after end users test and post on forums that is the case, after it has already been released and sold on the store. Sure.

Most of the time, Steam is a form of DRM. Valve does not intend for you to ever copy the files out of the Steam folder and make backups to run them later, they expect you always to be accessing, downloading, and launching games through Steam.

Also, lets be real for a minute. No-one actually downloads their Steam games. They purchase 200 games on Steam sale and they sit in their library.

 

[Megatron]

No, because due the game being delayed by two weeks plus shenanigans with the free copy of Sonic 1 you got with the preorder you can't get automated refunds for it.

Really? That seems like something you could contact them about. Isn't 2 weeks still within their return window?

 

[Two Pikachus]

ITT we tell paying customers they're wrong for using the review feature as intended

.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Really? That seems like something you could contact them about. Isn't 2 weeks still within their return window?

IIRC the Sonic 1 copies were given like 2 days before the game would be released so by launch it would have already been 2 weeks since the refund timer was being based on those, and relying on Steam support is hardly pleasant.

 

[Nitpicker_Red]

That's never, ever, what they mean, since they automatically assume every game on Steam uses it.

I'm not sure. People can surely tell when they can launch the game without launching Steam and when they can't?
Maybe I have too much faith in people, and not enough faith in their writing skills.

 

[c0Zm1c]

Also, lets be real for a minute. No-one actually downloads their Steam games. They purchase 200 games on Steam sale and they sit in their library.

That's being flippant, not real!

 

[Frozenprince]

ITT we justify abusing review systems for the sake of making a statement

That's the whole point of reviews.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

That's the whole point of reviews.

Some people just can't accept that.

 

[Eternia]

Of all my years of PC gaming, I have never had a problem with DRM. I do think it's a waste of money and resources, and ultimately futile as crackers will find a way through it. But it's never negatively affected me and it's never, and will never influence my personal purchasing decisions.

Threads like this feel entirely like sour grapes to me.

I think the point he/she just trying to make is that if you never see or are affected by the DRM then negativity reviewing the package simply because you don't like it is wrong.

It's an additional point of failure that's completely unrelated to the game. For something that gives zero benefit to consumers at best, no guarantees of future support, not even minor discussions on how it's improving their bottom line (if there's even any research on this being done). We already see the effect of entire platforms being abandoned (GFWL) let alone DRM servers. None of which are pretty at all when it happens.

Steam allows returns though. So weren't you just able to cancel your pre order?

Isn't Denuvo commonly patched out at a later date after it's no longer effective? I doubt most people will go back and change their reviews. I wouldn't go this route, personally. Poor sales of Sonic on PC won't make Sega stop using Denuvo, it will make them stop releasing Sonic on PC.

Not everyone pre-orders through Steam and their compensation for the delay may be causing complications for automated refunds. There is also zero guarantees of Denuvo being patched out, it's far more likely for companies to generally not give a shit and leave it as is.

You can cherry pick games that happen to be DRM free, which is only discovered after end users test and post on forums that is the case, after it has already been released and sold on the store. Sure.

Most of the time, Steam is a form of DRM. Valve does not intend for you to ever copy the files out of the Steam folder and make backups to run them later, they expect you always to be accessing, downloading, and launching games through Steam.

Also, lets be real for a minute. No-one actually downloads their Steam games. They purchase 200 games on Steam sale and they sit in their library.

I don't understand why you keep adding qualifications to your statements. Something doesn't have to be labelled DRM-free to be so, it would be nice but it's not a requirement.

Why does it even matter if someone downloads it or not. That's an issue on any platform if you wish to "backup" your content, not exclusive to Steam.

 

[ArjanN]

I'd rather people review the quality of the actual game, and then maybe have a line in there where they mention the DRM. I find reviews that are entirely centered on a specific hangup pretty much worthless.

 

[ChryZ]

ITT we justify abusing review systems for the sake of making a statement

How is that abuse?

People should just shut up and swallow their unhappiness about draconian DRM?

Yeah, fuck that. What's next?

Unions are abusing corporations with anti-capitalist worker rights?

 

[Two Pikachus]

I'd rather people review the quality of the actual game, and then maybe have a line in there where they mention the DRM. I find reviews that are entirely centered on a specific hangup pretty much worthless.

I find them valuable when I too find that particular pain point to be a dealbreaker.

Some people read the reviews to see if the issues others see apply to them.

 

[Nekketsu Kõha]

I'd rather people review the quality of the actual game, and then maybe have a line in there where they mention the DRM. I find reviews that are entirely centered on a specific hangup pretty much worthless.

Can't play the game, DRM broke it.
10/10 strongly recommended

 

[Gbraga]

I think the problem is that Steam reviews are really two things: Game reviews and product reviews.

Not only do they review the quality and content of the game itself, but they are also a review on the product. If a game has shitty netcode or bad servers, that has nothing to do with game content, but has a lot to do with the game as a product. DRM may have nothing to do with the quality of graphics, story, or game-play, but have a lot to do with the product itself if you are unable to launch the game.

Since Steam is not just a game review site but also a store-front, this is appropriate.

I completely agree with this.

Though personally, I wouldn't buy a game just to leave a bad review and refund it. I feel like it's dishonest. It's not reflecting my experience with the product anymore, just me helping out a friend who had a bad experience. Don't care if other people do it, but it's not for me.

 

[Sailent]

People should be allowed to leave bad reviews.

Why are you treating people utilising a storefronts review system like they're in the wrong?

It's much odder that you seem to want people to not be able to voice their displeasure.

Thank you.

 

[Alexander DeLarge]

I'd rather people review the quality of the actual game, and then maybe have a line in there where they mention the DRM. I find reviews that are entirely centered on a specific hangup pretty much worthless.

How many people are doing that though? Sonic Mania was a fringe case where they snuck in the DRM to the point where I had to ship my collector's edition back to Amazon because I didn't know about it (and I keep track of this stuff).

 

[Temeculan3000]

That's an issue on any platform if you wish to "backup" your content, not exclusive to Steam.

I agree, except for physical games. if the license to use that game legally can be taken from you remotely, that is a form of DRM in my opinion.

So in that sense, GOG may be a form of DRM if they are able to revoke the license to use the software, even if they don't have the ability to remotely disable the software.

Even if you did backup all of your DRM free Steam games, if they ban your account and revoke all of your licenses. You are no longer legally allowed to launch those games.

 

[harmundo]

This new trend of Review Bombing is such a bitch move.

Entitlement Generation, indeed.

So much this.

 

[Frozy]

So much this.

Oh yes, the corporation is entitled for good reviews even if we don't like the way their product turned out.
I mean, it's not like it's the entire point of the review system, right?

 

[Krooner]

The DRM, which has actual issues, is part of the product.
People are rating the product appropriately.
The system is working as intended.

I get it I suppose, it just feels self-defeating.