Phrynobatrachus
Neo Member
for the 90123123th time, black bloc is simply a tactic used to remain anonymous, that's it
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Daily Show host Trevor Noah says people see Antifa as "Vegan Isis"
- Thread starter kitsunelaine
- Start date
for the 90123123th time, black bloc is simply a tactic used to remain anonymous, that's it
RedSparrows
Member
Can we stop this bastardisation of history plz. Nazis are shitheads. But you are not on the beaches. This is not your toy. This does nothing but elides complex histories together for neat point scoring online. Stupidity.
gutter_trash
Banned
ANITFA doesn't disavow them
Hierophant
Banned
how can you disavow a faction within a movement when the movement itself lacks centralised leadership?
gutter_trash
Banned
there lies the problem, it's a headless chicken.
I remember when the Tuition Protesters of 2012 claimed that there was no central leader or leadership and used that as an excuse to not condemne acts of vandalism perpatrated by some
Phrynobatrachus
Neo Member
I don't know what you're talking about tbh. Sometimes black blocs make sense to use, sometimes they don't. It's not even something exclusive to antifa/anarchism.
gutter_trash
Banned
No, the Black Block never makes sense. How is breaking a McDonald's window change anything "uuhuhuh capitalismsmz uhuh"
how is breaking an unassuming parked car's window help the "cause", the owner of the car could be a janitor, a cook, a teacher, a nurse, a single mother.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Nope, it have a political identity and a history lied to far-left autonomous/anarchist movement.
old manatee
Banned
That totally makes sense if you put endless right wing hate crimes and terrorist attacks on the same level as smashing a Starbucks window.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Some group does. There is a big divide between the autonomous/legalist approach among antifa, at least in France.
Phrynobatrachus
Neo Member
Propaganda of the deed. It sucks when some average joe has their car lit on fire or whatever, and I think it would be helpful if the organization of these actions included more acknowledgement of that, but typically they're against sources/symbols of capital.
Hierophant
Banned
I can think of at least one death on our side by right wing fucks (and probably countless more that didn't receive as much attention),
especially since she was an avowed member of the IWW (a notable left wing org and anti-fascist org)
Give me a single verifiable death caused by anti-fascists in the United States.
Your problem isn't the dudes fighting against the Nazis.
especially since she was an avowed member of the IWW (a notable left wing org and anti-fascist org)
Give me a single verifiable death caused by anti-fascists in the United States.
Your problem isn't the dudes fighting against the Nazis.
i feel like we need to have a national conversation about the definition of the word "anarchist"
Yeah sure pointing out racist and white supremists are bad, history is complex espically with nazi's, so multi faceted and we will never know how they could have calmed down if we just talked with them. The moral and intellectual superiority of of some one on a forum snide attempts to disaociate white supremacists history with contemporary white supremacists while the later actually use NAZI code phrases.
Sounds like Trevor was on the money then.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Piece from the Atlantic about it;
There is a hypocritical component to their entire ideology. They don't have intellectual acument to stand on, and maybe that is why their significance is mostly associated with police clashes at G summits and not doing the work of instigating constructive policies through the existing channels. Nope, these edge lords are above running government and doing actual community building.
That has been my experience with Antifa in the EU branch, and having been around them enough as a teen, to see there is not lot there- Which is why many antifa people outgrows it in their 20s. My friends fortunately did, and it made them a lot less miserable to be around.
I really don't understand some posters in this thread. I recognize posters here who couldn't get their arms down over the heinous violence during the election in Nevada when a Bernie supporter almost threw a chair. It's quite a leap things have taken for some posters here, being morally outraged at the lack of condemnation of almost-chair throwing, to then bag your hat behind groups of anarchists, socialists and communists, who are united (somewhat) in their desire to replace capitalism, power structures, break down nation borders, dissolve the police and redistribute wealth.
Six months ago, lots of you were to sensible to left-wing purity tests with Hillary being the only way forward, but in a short amount of time, things have certainly changed.
Which is fine- And I am not saying that european Antifas general shittyness has to be reflected on what Antifa means in the US. I don't pretend to understand Antifa in the US, but Antifa as it exist in Europe is def not the saviors of liberal ideology. Yes, they do but head to head with white supremacists (and always have) but they are not the type of people who have a movement, that can really grow into a great adaptable and insightful ideology for all Europeans to follow. It runs on angsty teenage memes and misunderstandings of history, as well as a all-or-nothing entitled rhetorical approach to passing change.
There is a hypocritical component to their entire ideology. They don't have intellectual acument to stand on, and maybe that is why their significance is mostly associated with police clashes at G summits and not doing the work of instigating constructive policies through the existing channels. Nope, these edge lords are above running government and doing actual community building.
That has been my experience with Antifa in the EU branch, and having been around them enough as a teen, to see there is not lot there- Which is why many antifa people outgrows it in their 20s. My friends fortunately did, and it made them a lot less miserable to be around.
I really don't understand some posters in this thread. I recognize posters here who couldn't get their arms down over the heinous violence during the election in Nevada when a Bernie supporter almost threw a chair. It's quite a leap things have taken for some posters here, being morally outraged at the lack of condemnation of almost-chair throwing, to then bag your hat behind groups of anarchists, socialists and communists, who are united (somewhat) in their desire to replace capitalism, power structures, break down nation borders, dissolve the police and redistribute wealth.
Six months ago, lots of you were to sensible to left-wing purity tests with Hillary being the only way forward, but in a short amount of time, things have certainly changed.
Which is fine- And I am not saying that european Antifas general shittyness has to be reflected on what Antifa means in the US. I don't pretend to understand Antifa in the US, but Antifa as it exist in Europe is def not the saviors of liberal ideology. Yes, they do but head to head with white supremacists (and always have) but they are not the type of people who have a movement, that can really grow into a great adaptable and insightful ideology for all Europeans to follow. It runs on angsty teenage memes and misunderstandings of history, as well as a all-or-nothing entitled rhetorical approach to passing change.
Phrynobatrachus
Neo Member
that's just straight bullshit, considering the long history of communist support for otherwise marginalized communities. there's food not bombs, squats in greece and elsewhere, mutual aid in the wake of natural disasters, the IWW, etc etc, and that's only the explicitly anarchist stuff, not even communism overall.
gutter_trash
Banned
propaganda my ass, I live in Montreal and witnessed their damage in my city.
Antifa is an umbrella term for those who actively oppose fascists - by active I mean doing more than saying 'Nazis are bad' on an internet board. It can involve counter-protesting, shutting down Nazi gatherings & helping organise community resistance.
Politically this means it includes a wide spectrum of left politics, including anarchists who identify with violent direct action not just against fascists but against what they consider to be symbols of the socioeconomic system that enables fascism in the first place. This is the Black Bloc.
There are other anarchist groups within antifa who disagree with BB tactics within the context of antifa demonstrations & other direct action.
One of the core problems with antifa in the US is, as with most other protest movements there, is its theoretical foundation for praxis is liberalism, not a derivative of Marxism/Socialism. Liberalism is not a revolutionary political ideology, and as such cannot accomodate radical action at either fringe or core as part of change process.
That piece from the Atlantic is bullshit from beginning to end.
You're doing it again. Todays situation is not comparable to 1933-1945, allthough the swastika's may seem to imply otherwise. You are using dishonest comparisons and it doesn't do your argument a favor.
EDIT: I can join your logic and turn it arround: You know, if Chamberlain only had encouraged some people to smash in some window shops and burn some cars and attack random people on the street that might be Nazi's. Hitler would've never invaded Poland!
We are talking here about leftwing extremist who in the name of 'fighting fascists' smash in a Starbucks window, burn a limousine, attack journalist and suckerpunch people because they maybe wearing a white t-shirt so they could be alt-right fucks. Explain to me how this in any way defeats the alt-right movement and it's goals? It only plays into their narrative of the violent left and maybe even 'white genocide' ("they attack us!", is what those cunts are saying all the time)
With every punch the black bloc pulls they hit themselves in the face, and every window they break is one of their own.
uncelestial
Member
A good sign that you're fucking up is when Tomi Lahren agrees with you.
Doctoglethorpe
Member
Quick, email isis some animal torture videos. If it'll make them start just breaking Starbucks windows and punching nazis instead of all that other horrendous shit, that's a big win.
.......is burning a motherfucker down really the same as an man-made extinction level event for certain populations?
paperboywriter
Member
I'm not exactly sure how to criticize left extremism but there should be a way.
PabloBolivar
Banned
Just say the words "Antifa is a terrorist organization". It's not hard. Don't let anyone intimadate you to support violence.
DirgeExtinction
Member
Exactly. It's not that Noah believes that antifa = "vegan" ISIS. It's that the average person will see violent antifa as terrorists.
You should probably start by not mischaracterizing said extremism, overplay its size and scope or be so overly broad that it's vague.
For example - you can say, I don't think doing x like they did in this case is morally justifiable.
You can say, I think doing y for that goal might be morally justified, but it's practically counter-productive.
Considering the pretty damn low level of violence from the left in the US (especially when compared to pretty much any other democracy in the world), I don't it's the most pressing issue the US faces, but whatever.
Antifa can be called that only by the most broad and pedantic definition possible, one that would classify MLK and Ghandi as terrorists too.
In short, it's fucking bullshit.
If you're gonna jump to a 20 page thread and reply to a post from first page, you should at least try and see if this point has been raised and discussed already.
Spoiler: it did.
David H Wong
Banned
Agree 100%. Every movement has a duty to criticize its bad elements - that's how you improve, get stronger. Antifa plays right into the Nazis hands, they're the best thing to happen to the alt-right since Trump. They create a nice little left-wing straw man for middle American to be afraid of.
Avoiding criticism of groups like this in the name of unity or not aiding the Nazis is pure bullshit - that's how movements turn toxic, and rot from the inside ("As long as a single Nazi exists on earth, all actions are excused!").
Nope, sorry. It didn't work that way back when we were using Islamic terrorism to justify all kinds of immoral and overreaching bullshit, and it doesn't work now that we're using right-wing terrorism to do the same.
PabloBolivar
Banned
Show me videos of MLK and Ghandi beating and punching people. I'll be waiting.
In short, let's talk instead of turning to violence.
Thank you for that post
Wrestlemania
Banned
Media reaction to Antifa in a nutshell:
Both the civil rights and the Indian independence movements were way more violent than anything Antifa ever did in the US, like order of magnitude more. Both MLK and Ghandi are on the record that violence is not only can be justified in certain situations, but at times, necessary.
PabloBolivar
Banned
Hell yes, but the scale of oppression and the response back then was an order of magnitude greater imo.
These so-called "free speech rallies" are nothing compared to what was going on in those times and I agree that the Antifa response is like a late night pillow fight. But I am one of those ideological purists who hates to see violence. I hate even watching the bloody videos. I can't support that.
As I said, I think it's fair to say that the level of violence is not justified given the issues that they're fighting for.
But look at it this way, I don't know where you are politically, but think of your unicorn policy, be it universal healthcare or privatization of social security, if you thought a couple of broken Bank of America windows could achieve that, wouldn't you support that?
I would.
Now if your argument is that this is counter-productive and not help the causes that they're fighting for, well, that's a practical argument, and one that should be made in way more relaxed tones and without comparing them to Nazis or ISIS.
Learning about actual left-wing politics instead of the milquetoast liberalism that's crying ITT would be a good starting point.
You're going to speak truth to power against the forces of capital and expect it to roll over and say 'Ok, capitalism is a huge mistake, here are the tools of statehood & power go build a better world.'?
Good luck with that.
The thing is, that thought is just wrong. If your unicorn policy gets asociated with broken windows, property and violence, you can probably rest assured your policy will lose credence in the eye of the public. That's what happening here. Like I said before, I saw it happen in Belgium: a peacefull antigovernment protest was hijacked by violent fringe groups, resulting in burning cars, a police officer hit in the head with a brick and hospitalised, and uprooted benches and trash cans. It was enough for the government to just dismiss any quell the protest was about to begin with and almost totally nullified the action...
I for one couldn't care less if those tiki torch cunts got punched on every other occasion, but I realise punching them plays into their cards and their narrative. There are so many other ways to fight them. Shaming and exposing them seemed to work pretty good, and didn't give Fox News any munition...
Again, the level of violence from the left in the US is amazingly low, like, historically so.
There isn't a single successful political movement in history who managed to achieve anything without any property damage happening along the way.
Demanding zero violence is demanding no direct action, which is why the right wing is demanding it, and if it won't be Antifa they will find someone else to vilify.
That is not to say that you need to support or engage in damaging properties, but if you generally agree with the causes that the left promote, the least you can do is not help propagate this right wing media caricature of the left which is designed to de-legitimize it and make people forget that one side has actual Nazis.
Adopting this bullshit narrative will not make Antifa change their way and it won't make Fox News stop declaring anything Democrats proposing as OMG COMMUNISM, and you think people who buy that "Antifa are the real fascists" bullshit are one "I condemn all violence from all sides" post on facebook from stop swallowing those stupid scare tactics?
The only purpose it has is to make you feel better about how you are "fair to both sides".
moondoggerr
Banned
I would very much like to see these quotes.
moondoggerr
Banned
"I do believe that where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence I would advise violence." - Mohandas Gandhi.
Found it.
Found it.
I don't trust Antifa in the US. It isn't centralized, and thus it's chaotic and likely to do more harm than good. Too many people with self-determined justice + the hubris of youth. This isn't a group against organized, fascist groups, but a group against those who they perceive to problematic.
You want to take down a statue? Go through the proper channels or face consequences. You want to deface private property? Face consequences. Some preemptively attack others, and never the dudes dressed up in militia shit. Nah, fuck that.
That said, I'm certainly not bemoaning a Nazi being punched or seeing 20th century, Jim Crow statues of people who didn't even want statues coming down.
You want to take down a statue? Go through the proper channels or face consequences. You want to deface private property? Face consequences. Some preemptively attack others, and never the dudes dressed up in militia shit. Nah, fuck that.
That said, I'm certainly not bemoaning a Nazi being punched or seeing 20th century, Jim Crow statues of people who didn't even want statues coming down.
excelsiorlef
Member
States literally make it impossible for local towns to take them down.
King Tubby
Member
If people on the left don't like it when protests turn violent, they need to get their heads out of the sand and acknowledge the frustrations and brutality experienced by those doing the protesting. Not only that, but acknowledge the complicity of the state, particularly the police.
I would prefer that law and order rule the day, but not without justice. Not if police wear kid gloves when it comes to white supremacists and armed militias but deploy tear gas and rubber bullets against BLM and NoDAPL. Not when a tiny minority of antifascists are used to smear everyone who counterprotests neo-Nazis, while the Republican party is absolved of its role in cultivating mass ignorance and white supremacy.
What about corrupt police who plant evidence? What about police who arrest innocent ethnic minorities over and over and coerce false confessions? What about police who brutalize or murder people without cause? What about white supremacists who fire guns at protesters? What about neo-Nazis who beat up black people with poles? When do they face the consequences?
I would prefer that law and order rule the day, but not without justice. Not if police wear kid gloves when it comes to white supremacists and armed militias but deploy tear gas and rubber bullets against BLM and NoDAPL. Not when a tiny minority of antifascists are used to smear everyone who counterprotests neo-Nazis, while the Republican party is absolved of its role in cultivating mass ignorance and white supremacy.
What about corrupt police who plant evidence? What about police who arrest innocent ethnic minorities over and over and coerce false confessions? What about police who brutalize or murder people without cause? What about white supremacists who fire guns at protesters? What about neo-Nazis who beat up black people with poles? When do they face the consequences?
Antifa is probably not going to kill you (and everyone you know).
Those channels have been compromised since Janurary 20th of this year.
Beggers can't be choosers when you're up against a wall (with a firing squad at the ready).
Not my concern? I'm sorry, what planet are you replying from?
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and guessing that's probably true, unfortunately. Our legislation is pretty fucked down here.
They should face consequences. I guess I'm more concerned about coming from a place of squeaky cleanliness before imposing authority, which isn't realistic.
excelsiorlef
Member
Spoiled Milk
Banned
You're wrong. The US government has already labelled (certain) Antifa actions as domestic terrorist violence. This is more specific than being a "terrorist organization" but it's as close as it gets short of that. There is nothing vague or pedantic about describing terrorism as the threat of extrajudicial violence to further political and social aims.
The same planet where such a possibility exists again.
Wasn't even a 100 hundred ago when this happened.
Similar threads
- Locked