radios shipping overview
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Is it possible for a 20-year-old show that inspired a generation of comedians and social commenters (professional and amateur) to still claim to be subversive?
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South Park is not subversive
- Thread starter Malyse
- Start date
CopperPuppy
Member
This is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. I started to type out examples but then realized I could choose virtually any episode from the first season alone and thus would be putting effort into making a point that frankly shouldn't have to be made in the first place. South Park has always been about social commentary first and foremost, literally from the jump.
That is such bullshit.
South Park is subversive. It was the raunchiest cartoon on basic cable. Tackling subjects other shows would not touch at all.
South Park is a comedy show first and foremost. It straddles a fine line between stopping the show and preaching, which it occasionally does to its detriment, and letting the jokes work within the context of the show and their own thoughts.
The show has never been about representing a strict ideology. It's a bunch of terrible people for the audience to laugh at ignorance and poke fun at their hypocrisy. It also lampoons current events like an issue of Mad Magazine without censors. Biting, sexual, and subversive for a basic cable/network cartoon.
Something can be subversive without being up to date on all the evolving consensus on representation. Subversiveness is about disrupting the current established institutions/general ideas.
I think people are looking for their entertainment to match their own ideology completely. If a show agrees with you more, then the satire is better or the analysis is better. Other cartoons were not really addressing race and class at all in 2007.
I don't think you will ever satisfy people in that way with comedy. It's usually going to be dismissive of aspects of a cause. For some reason, people hold comedians to a higher standard than pundits, because they have a microphone and tell fart jokes, they should understand complex issues that our real leaders fail to understand and grasp.
It's difficult to explain systemic racism in 30 minutes with anything other than surface level critiques while also making it funny when most of the audience won't acknowledge systemic racism exists.
South Park is a comedy show first and foremost. It straddles a fine line between stopping the show and preaching, which it occasionally does to its detriment, and letting the jokes work within the context of the show and their own thoughts.
The show has never been about representing a strict ideology. It's a bunch of terrible people for the audience to laugh at ignorance and poke fun at their hypocrisy. It also lampoons current events like an issue of Mad Magazine without censors. Biting, sexual, and subversive for a basic cable/network cartoon.
Something can be subversive without being up to date on all the evolving consensus on representation. Subversiveness is about disrupting the current established institutions/general ideas.
I think people are looking for their entertainment to match their own ideology completely. If a show agrees with you more, then the satire is better or the analysis is better. Other cartoons were not really addressing race and class at all in 2007.
I don't think you will ever satisfy people in that way with comedy. It's usually going to be dismissive of aspects of a cause. For some reason, people hold comedians to a higher standard than pundits, because they have a microphone and tell fart jokes, they should understand complex issues that our real leaders fail to understand and grasp.
It's difficult to explain systemic racism in 30 minutes with anything other than surface level critiques while also making it funny when most of the audience won't acknowledge systemic racism exists.
They've had their fair share of big missteps, but the latest episode has quite an incisive ending -- spoilers, I suppose:
Randy complained about white supremacists being noisy, only to the point where he managed to, in the end, pretty up their confederacy symbols into pillows and "renovate" their house into something presentable and out of view -- even AFTER he had heard about how the racist wanted to murder people.
It was surprisingly biting commentary on how people not directly impacted typically deal with racism: out of sight, out of mind, back to HGTV.
Randy complained about white supremacists being noisy, only to the point where he managed to, in the end, pretty up their confederacy symbols into pillows and "renovate" their house into something presentable and out of view -- even AFTER he had heard about how the racist wanted to murder people.
It was surprisingly biting commentary on how people not directly impacted typically deal with racism: out of sight, out of mind, back to HGTV.
Until you consider what the choices look like to an actual black gamer who wants to play as a black character. We all get hard mode in game as well as in life. Lessons for everyone!
Not really. And it's so weird to me that people continually deny what has been there for numerous seasons, all the way back to the Bush presidency.
perfectchaos007
Member
I'm sure there's a test you can take somewhere. You'll get questions like: On a scale of 1-10, how certain are you that gender is a social construct?
Come on, South Park is far from appealing to Right Wingers.
Dude Abides
Banned
Yep. Here's more on the origin of the term if you're interested
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Park_Republican
Some guy even wrote a book about it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Park_Conservatives
Dr. Benton Quest
Banned
I really enjoy Rick and Morty (especially their most recent episode and it's takedown of capitalism) but the number of people who think it's some super heady masterpiece is staggering.
Rick is not someone to be emulated. There have been times I've been legitimately pissed at actions he's taken and he is a truly awful human being. He lacks almost any redeeming qualities.
The show isn't subtle either. Feelings and motivations are almost always clearly laid out. The basic premise is that we're all just trying to find our own meaning in a meaningless universe. There's nothing super intellectual about that.
Rick is not someone to be emulated. There have been times I've been legitimately pissed at actions he's taken and he is a truly awful human being. He lacks almost any redeeming qualities.
The show isn't subtle either. Feelings and motivations are almost always clearly laid out. The basic premise is that we're all just trying to find our own meaning in a meaningless universe. There's nothing super intellectual about that.
Velocity:Design:Comfort
Banned
Agree, whole heartedly. "Look at how dumb having feelings is" is pretty passe, and there are a plethora of adult animated shows now that are funny and not up their own asses. Seems kinda just like its a relic of its time now.
I mean...South Park Republicans is a real term these people gave themselves. And it's not like the show has changed at all.
Could be because you're wrong? This crowd of people bitching about South Park being "both sides" directly correlates with the rise of "if you're not 100% on my side you're a right winger"
Some people argue they were "too soft" on Trump and claimed they didn't pick a side. It couldn't have been anymore clear. They painted Hilary as unlikable, but infinitely more qualified than Trump. They painted Trump as an absolute insane mad man who was actively trying not to get elected because he was so incompetent, but his supporters were too fucking dense to realize that.
Ordinaryundone
Member
I'm gonna let you in on a little secret, don't tell!
The "difficulty slider" doesn't actually change anything but skin tone. It's a joke.
I'm referring to a continued pattern of behavior for numerous seasons. But good to see someone erasing the existence of their famous both sides episode and general both side fuckery.
It's not even that they fence sit, really. They have no problem calling people or ideas out, and that's not what someone who is riding the line does. It's more like they have more interest in picking on people who AREN'T being picked on or voices that have come on so strong, it's struck them as personally annoying.
All these angry blogs and articles about how South Park isn't "subversive" or "raised a generation of trolls" miss the point of South Park. It's not here to educate you or reinforce right and wrong beliefs. They'll use it to express some specific thought or view, but ultimately it's there to mock everything and anything.
There has to be SOME room for absurdism left.
All these angry blogs and articles about how South Park isn't "subversive" or "raised a generation of trolls" miss the point of South Park. It's not here to educate you or reinforce right and wrong beliefs. They'll use it to express some specific thought or view, but ultimately it's there to mock everything and anything.
There has to be SOME room for absurdism left.
Skellig Gra
Member
I'll never understand when/why people decided South Park had some moral obligation to be progressive. It's an over the top satire show.
Comparing SP to absurdism is an insult to absurdist theatre.
There's about no comparison to make.
Because they like to make out they're above any agenda, yet their show is often preachy and regularly engages with social, racial and political issues. The way they engage is often provocative and critical of one side or another but ultimately contrary or fence-sitting and fails to draw any coherent conclusion. As a result they happily court an audience of people with shitty beliefs.
I don't care what they call themselves, the show has attacked traditional conservative values in many episodes explicitly.
SaviourMK2
Member
21 seasons, I really havent enjoyed South Park in a long time.
You know, crucify me if you must, but I think Rick and Morty and Bob's Burgers are just better.
I havent seen any of the last 3 seasons of Family Guy, I haven't seen the last 13 seasons of the Simpsons (And i'm ballparking that 13).
I think after a period shows just need to be stopped altogether.
South Park just isn't funny to me anymore.
You know, crucify me if you must, but I think Rick and Morty and Bob's Burgers are just better.
I havent seen any of the last 3 seasons of Family Guy, I haven't seen the last 13 seasons of the Simpsons (And i'm ballparking that 13).
I think after a period shows just need to be stopped altogether.
South Park just isn't funny to me anymore.
freethoughtbubble
Member
I think I need to start watching South Park again. The more people rail against how horrible it is, the more I want to watch it. It's like middle school all over again.
Very much this too.
I got tired of South Park's 'both sides are shitty' schtick back in season 6 or so.
Who's PC Principal?
AquaticSquirrel
Member
My personal view on it would be that I don't think it's so much that they lean conservative, I think it's more that they lean maybe 80 - 90% liberal and anything but 100% compliance is seen as the enemy from some people. (Again not aiming that at you personally).
I would agree that they go after Holywood liberals a lot, but that to me always came across as backlash/blowback towards people they perceived as being preachy, holier than thou types who are invlolved in the incestuous Hollywood circle-jerk community, which Matt and Trey are involved in so these are likely the kinds of people they socialise with (to a point), meet at industry dinners, events, award shows, galas etc..
I mean afterall if I remember right they got their start due to George Clooney basically vouching for them and getting them in contact with the right people to get where they are today, and from what I know they are still friends with him and his circle (to the best of my knowledge) who are all very liberal hollywood types.
Granted I think they've also gone in hard on conservative types and ideas, I'm sure they have gone in hard on some conservative people/politicians too although to be honest I can't think of any of the top of my head, although again I'm not American so I'm not 100% clued in to every aspect of politcs there so others likely could.
At least that's my take on it, I'm not claiming they don't sometimes have stupid opinions or stances that I don't agree with but to say that they lean conservative I think is missing the forest for the trees to a point.
I just wanted to say I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me and educate me on certain points such as the "south park republican" thing. As I said there are certain trends, topics or facts that I either wouldn't be or only tangentally be aware of from America.
Audioboxer
Member
It rears it's head as some sort of litmus test that if someone on the right laughs at a joke or likes a show then that must mean it's appealing to them/endorsing them. Newsflash, even with the large political differences the left and right have people on both sides can eat the same food, wear the same clothes, listen to the same music, play the same games and watch the same TV shows. I'm pretty sure there is some Conservatives watching Game of Thrones right now. Darn it.
I'm on the left and have been all my life but I don't see reality as such a divide where people on the left and right don't ever overlap. It can't be! We're enemies 24/7! When we're talking about cartoons, video games and music, sorry folks, people you don't like will have overlapping interests and hobbies to you. Everyone wants to be able to laugh, right? Yeah, even your enemies take time out their lives to try and smile/joke/laugh. Quite often that will be with the same comedians, shows and jokes as you like! If they can take it on the chin that is when their politics and social views get satirised. Conservatives do get satirised in South Park... everyone does.
The arguments you see often around SP usually say Cartman is an idol of the right. So? If people take Cartman literally that's on their dumb asses. Others, like you, can laugh at Cartman and it doesn't mean you're secretly on the right because you laughed. This ties back into me saying people have to find ways to take life less seriously without a constant litmus test for being... woke I guess, seeing as woke is the word the article keeps using.
So you're talking about an extremely niche group who take their inspiration for their political affiliation from a show, that is mercilessly mocking their party and it's supporters regularly? Did you know Ronald Reagan used "born in the USA" as his campaign song without realizing the song was actually against his beliefs? Yeah Bruce Springsteen is such a fucking right winger right?
This makes it actually worse...
Good job dismissing all the criticism at hand.
Any points on the latest episode?
I'm genuinely curious if there are other reads on this. It surprised me.
yanipheonu
Member
Pretty much my thoughts. The Simpsons even made jokes about this with itself, eventually you go from parodying something to become the norm that is being parodied.
Plus people inevitably lose their younger edge and become more settled in their creative ways. You can still make great stuff, but often it's not as raw as what you were making just starting out.
Die subversive, or live long enough to become the norm.
I was responding to the idea the show doesn't appeal to fuck headed right wingers. It does. En masse. But sure, distort my statements and pretend like these people don't exist.
Ordinaryundone
Member
"It's popular, so it must follow my beliefs to the letter! Won't someone think of the children?!"
It's a wheel that turns ever onward, people at the end of the day just can't handle something they don't like receiving praise or attention. South Park is I suppose fairly unique in that it's gotten pretty much everyone to take a shot at it at one time or another. I mean, whose left that they haven't called out?
Sounds like your left/right absolutism is clouding your judgement of the show. It's not that they go after both sides and fence sit, they go after all sides. Usually the only voices of reason are the kids like Stan or Kyle, everyone is a total fuck up. It's not South Parks responsibility to confirm or deny your political views. And what you think they pretend to be, or the audience they pretend to court, is what you have brought to the party, not them.
Sephiroth503
Member
It also appeals to a lot of non right wing people.
This. All of this.
They don't do this! They stop just short of literally spelling it out for you. I don't understand why people are so dense when it comes to this show.
I read that it changes dialogue and the manner in how characters interact with you. Flip a coin on what would be more bothersome.
LOL who gives a shit that it appeals to them? I just pointed out that born in the USA became a literal theme song for the Republican party. Know why? Because their dumbasses missed the point.
You realize Rick and Morty has a massive following by anti pc crowd right?
If you don't think South Park is intentionally positioning itself to be ridiculous or over the top as a matter of entertainment and NOT social commentary, I don't know what to say about that.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Seriously laughing at the idea of Stone and Parker as woke and making South Park for woke people lol
It's a cartoon. Unfortunately over time they've gone all in on trying to have messages all the time and it gets in the way, when earlier on they would have stuff to say but it wasn't the main focus
It's a cartoon. Unfortunately over time they've gone all in on trying to have messages all the time and it gets in the way, when earlier on they would have stuff to say but it wasn't the main focus
Please learn what absurdist theatre is.
Very much this. People are stupid and often miss what a piece of media is talking about.
There's a reason TVTropes has a huge section called "Misaimed Fandom"/
Years ago when I was part of the Guitar Hero/Rock Band community, several people wanted Slayer's Angel of Death in the games, not realizing that it's about Joseph Mengele and the atrocities he committed. When I confronted one person about this, pointing out the lyrics ("Sickening ways to achieve the Holocaust"), he told me "Oh I just know the part where they say Angel of Death".
BibiMaghoo
Member
I read the article, but I admit this made it harder.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
I've been trying to say that I understand how you feel, but I'll never understand. I'll never really get how it feels for a black person to hear somebody use the N word, Stan says. Now you get it, Token says. Its a sorry attempt to make a point about race that ends in a cop-out.
How is this a cop out?
How is this a cop out?
LOL what? Where are you getting this? They're both self-proclaimed, proud libertarians, and either Matt or Trey once said "I hate conservatives, but I really fucking hate liberals". The show is essentially what I would expect from someone who grew up reading Reason.com, basically.