mechashiva
Member
Thus pretty much sums up how futile it feels every time there's a mass shooting and you know you can't do anything.When the Senate blows up and everyone is encased by fire, Superman stands around looking sad:
Thus pretty much sums up how futile it feels every time there's a mass shooting and you know you can't do anything.When the Senate blows up and everyone is encased by fire, Superman stands around looking sad:
ok henry it goes like this you grab him by the neck AND SNAP THE SHIT OUT OF IT LIKE THIS WHABOOOOSH YEAHHHH AWESOME
Snyder's Supes had a father who was an idiot and a mother who urges him to be selfish and as a result, wound up an unlikeable character. If you dont get the Kents right, you can't make Superman work.
What is the appeal of Snyder's Superman?
What is the appeal of Snyder's Superman?
What is the appeal of Snyder's Superman?
What is the appeal of Snyder's Superman?
What is the appeal of Snyder's Superman?
What is the appeal of Snyder's Superman?
God dammit you beat me to this so fast, It's the first thought I had when reading this and the last thought.
It's really clear that Snyder loves watchmen and the themes present in that book. And many of those themes are 100% worth exploring. The question of "are super heroes even a good thing for society" is endlessly fascinating and can be tackled in many different ways.
Problem is.... I'm not quite sure that's where you want to start when establishing not only Superman, but also an entire cinematic universe that has to be built on at least some premise that, yeah, superheroes need to be a good thing so we can keep having them around in these movies.
What is the appeal of Snyder's Superman?
What is the appeal of Snyder's Superman?
When the Senate blows up and everyone is encased by fire, Superman stands around looking sad:
Now I really have heard it all.
He's an alien. You want to know why he's physically separated from a lot of the people he's saving in those shots? Because he's literally, biologically separated from the human race. The look of confusion and anguish on his face is him understandably struggling with the unreality of being an extraterrestrial in such surreal situations, let alone the ensuing religious adulation. He is a farmer from Kansas who is emotionally unprepared for any of this, as anyone of us would be. Every action he takes has a metaphysical aftershock on mankind, which, obviously, is the entire point of the conversation with his surrogate father in the carpenter's shed. It's one thing to forfeit your humanity online in a discussion forum by saying you can't relate to his facial discomfort but to pretend these themes are entirely lost on you requires a willful disregard of the basic underlying premise of the Superman.
It was a very well written OP but you guys really are scraping the bottom of the barrel at this point.
He was also raised by down to earth humansWhat is all this "He's an alien god, of course he can't relate to humans" bollocks?
IT'S CLARK FUCKING KENT!
Fun fact in the directors cut there is a sequence of him rescuing people from the explosion and bringing them to EMT workers. Yet another very needed scene that was cut from the theatrical release.
What is all this "He's an alien god, of course he can't relate to humans" bollocks?
IT'S CLARK FUCKING KENT!
The movie was long and had to cut stuff...wait, seriously? Why in the world would you cut that?
Now I really have heard it all.
He's an alien. You want to know why he's physically separated from a lot of the people he's saving in those shots? Because he's literally, biologically separated from the human race. The look of confusion and anguish on his face is him understandably struggling with the unreality of being an extraterrestrial in such surreal situations, let alone the ensuing religious adulation. He is a farmer from Kansas who is emotionally unprepared for any of this, as anyone of us would be.
...wait, seriously? Why in the world would you cut that?
What is the appeal of Snyder's Superman?
What is the appeal of Snyder's Superman?
In a world that is more cynical than ever, where people will shit on you for doing the right thing in the wrong way, and where the systems we build keep failing us, Snyder's Superman is innately good, and still strives to see the goodness in everyone.
...wait, seriously? Why in the world would you cut that?
Was he trying to see the goodness in everyone when he wrecked that guy's truck? Or when he punted that African warlord through a wall and killed him? (and yes, he's dead. Don't you dare fucking tell me he survived that shit)
In a world that is more cynical than ever, where people will shit on you for doing the right thing in the wrong way, and where the systems we build keep failing us, Snyder's Superman is innately good, and still strives to see the goodness in everyone.
What separates him from WW, who is also in that same cynical world and manages to also be innately good?
What separates him from WW, who is also in that same cynical world and manages to also be innately good?
What is the appeal of Snyder's Superman?
"She was seperated from it, and he was raised in it" would probabaly be the arguement there. The whole movie of Wonder Woman is dealing with how cynical the world really is.
Doesn't mean I agree with the fact Superman has to be as depressing as the world he's in, in fact I'd say the whole point of his character is the opposite.
Maybe. But in JL unlimited there's this https://youtu.be/ONza8T0cBZ4?t=614
"She was seperated from it, and he was raised in it" would probabaly be the arguement given from synderverse fans. The whole movie of Wonder Woman is dealing with how cynical the world really is and coming to terms with it but not getting the better of her.
Doesn't mean I agree with the fact Superman has to be as depressing as the world he's in, in fact I'd say the whole point of his character is the opposite.
Just give Patty the DCU.
I think they've fucked it so hard already in 2 films there's no going back now.
Just give Patty the DCU.
There is absolutely a story to tell about Superman existing in our world. Especially debuting in that world. I promise you, if Superman was portrayed as the Reeves in 2017 in Trump's America, it would look off as well. Snyder just wasn't the person to execute this story.
ok henry it goes like this you grab him by the neck AND SNAP THE SHIT OUT OF IT LIKE THIS WHABOOOOSH YEAHHHH AWESOME
I think people's previous perceptions of Superman have coloured how people view the character. Look at how often a complaint Superman not smiling is. It's why you have people jizzing over the dude in Supergirl because he apparently smiles so much even though(full disclosure I haven't watched Supergirl yet) from what I have heard he doesn't get put through many trials and tribulations. Hell Cap wasn't a bundle of joy when the couldn't save the people in the car in AoU; Reeves was so angry when Lois died he screamed and span so fast he traveled back in time and he felt a bit mopey when he wasn't allowed to play football.
In the Snyder films of the top of my head he is bullied as a kid, has random people pick a fight with him, criticised for saving people, forced to watch his father die because his father though cynical was principled, blamed for collateral damage that was 99% the other guy, forced to kill and end his connection to his home world, framed for causing an international incident, blamed for a guy being driven to suicide, has a teched out fascist want to kill him because he doesn't trust him cos he's so damn super, oh and dies cause the figurative troll that caused half the crazy shit that happened to him created a literal troll to kill him.
Also. I have said this before, people may have depictions in their head that don't truly exist. Superman killed in cold blood during the Donner films. Jonathan Kent was a cynical bastard who feared his son would be a lab rat for the govt in those movies too. Why people insist that Johnathan Kent was a bundle of hope and optimism may be because they are basing what they are seeing on one to many episodes of Lois and Clark, possibly the comic, or nostalgia. Listen to the Smodcast episode on MOS where Kevin Smith had to remind the die hard Superman fan that Superman killed in the Donner films, how he can empathise as a protective parent with Jonathan Kent etc
I am probably going of on a tangent but it's interesting to compare how Cap and Superman take criticism. Cap is presented with the Sokovia accords and says the safest hands are still the Avengers as the Avengers can't even present a united front and doesn't think it's worth signing. Superman when presented with criticism is not mopey, he's pensive. When he is presented with criticism by Lois, he knows he is innocent and initially rejects it. But when presented with more "evidence", he is pensive, reflective and he goes to the Senate hearing to defend himself. Why he is criticised for it by audiences whilst Cap is praised for ignoring criticism. I am not quite sure, tone I guess. But then again I am not sure why people can't understand why a regular bloke may not want to be worshiped like a God and the Mexico complaint confuses me
Finally: I find it weird OP is saying there is moodwhiplash with the murder of Zod in MOS, but you don't bring up Superman 2. Though to be fair it is played for laughs and a quippy postmortem one liner before another act of murder is played for laughs in the Donner films. Maybe cos coldblooded murder is played for laughs in those films makes them more consistent I guess.
There's a gap between the script-- Superman wants to save people, is *compelled* to be a good guy even, even disobeying his father, even as it makes him an outcast (also asserted by the script)-- and how it's framed and shot. So we don't see Clark happy to be saving people, and we don't see him care, we just see him *do*. And further, in all the over the top destruction (what a horrible decision to make the damage so severe) him attempting to help people is often missed. And then there's that tone-deaf kiss at the end. And also, which we haven't even let the cement dry on "Clark is compelled to be a good guy, against some compelling reasons not to be" we push him past that and give him a no-win "Kill Zod or let innocents be killed" that doesn't play well because the movie hasn't stressed his no-kill stance before that.
So the basic beats are OK and he clearly does care, the movie muddles its own message with the visuals, the dilemma at the end, and the over-the-top destruction which overwhelms any nuanced take which the movie is already having a hard time selling.
What is the appeal of Snyder's Superman?
I'd argue that Clark has even more reason to protect the Earth. Having grown up in it, he's seen the good in the world.
Diana comes to the world and is immediately exposed to war, sexism, pollution, political cowardice, etc.
At the very least in BvS, Wonder Woman has actually withdrawn from the world, having taken from her confrontation with Ares the idea that her intervention in mankind's affairs only made things worse. And then, seeing Superman fight, she's inspired to come back, because, and that's key to the worldview of Batman V. Superman: Dawn of Justice, "men are still good".
I would support this.Just give Patty the DCU.
Good point.
I guess I feel like that appeal and theme was undermined hard by the script.
It felt like Superman was more into the idea of doing good and doing it because he can and at times only he can. It didn't feel like a Steve or a Diana where they make it clear it is in their core.