mechashiva
Member
Thus pretty much sums up how futile it feels every time there's a mass shooting and you know you can't do anything.When the Senate blows up and everyone is encased by fire, Superman stands around looking sad:
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Framing Snyder's Superman - Why people think he doesn't care
- Thread starter Veelk
- Start date
I get that some people dont want to see a boy scout or whatever, but yeah, that superman feels uninterested on whatever its happening around here, he is superman because he can not because he wants to, its like finishing college and jumping on the first shitty job you can do because you haven't been able to get the job you want, so you spent part of your day wondering if you are going to end doing that for the rest of your life.
As someone who is not that much into reading comics, I dare to say that MCU Captain America feels more like superman that the usual Captain America in the comics, and now that I think about, All Might is the best Superman I've seen in media recently, it is your standard boy scout, he is basically worshiped in that world, the society is what it is now all thanks to him but at the same time they show you his most vulnerable state, yet, whenever he appears you now that he will do everything to save people because that is who he decided to be and the reason why he inspires so many people
As someone who is not that much into reading comics, I dare to say that MCU Captain America feels more like superman that the usual Captain America in the comics, and now that I think about, All Might is the best Superman I've seen in media recently, it is your standard boy scout, he is basically worshiped in that world, the society is what it is now all thanks to him but at the same time they show you his most vulnerable state, yet, whenever he appears you now that he will do everything to save people because that is who he decided to be and the reason why he inspires so many people
Uzumaki Goku
Junior Member
ok henry it goes like this you grab him by the neck AND SNAP THE SHIT OUT OF IT LIKE THIS WHABOOOOSH YEAHHHH AWESOME
Where's this clip from? The Blu-Ray of Man of Steel?
dragonyeuw
Member
Good point. With the other live action interpretations I've seen( the Reeve films and Lois and Clark), Superman had no choice but to be humble, relatable, morally and ethically above reproach. Current Superman's parents have given him some, at best, sketchy advice in certain spots so there's no wonder he views saving humans as an obligation and fulfillment of his powers, rather than just being a good fucking person at his core who simply does the right thing because the right thing is the only thing to do. Not saying Cavil's Supes is a bad person, obviously, but he's not one to really admire or inspire to be.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
What is the appeal of Snyder's Superman?
he can do some dragonball z shit
Sometimes his eyes glow red when he's mad.
MegaManTrigger
Banned
He destroys buildings and admires his creation...err destruction.
Bolivar687
Banned
Now I really have heard it all.
He's an alien. You want to know why he's physically separated from a lot of the people he's saving in those shots? Because he's literally, biologically separated from the human race. The look of confusion and anguish on his face is him understandably struggling with the unreality of being an extraterrestrial in such surreal situations, let alone the ensuing religious adulation. He is a farmer from Kansas who is emotionally unprepared for any of this, as anyone of us would be. Every action he takes has a metaphysical aftershock on mankind, which, obviously, is the entire point of the conversation with his surrogate father in the carpenter's shed. It's one thing to forfeit your humanity online in a discussion forum by saying you can't relate to his facial discomfort but to pretend these themes are entirely lost on you requires a willful disregard of the basic underlying premise of the Superman.
It was a very well written OP but you guys really are scraping the bottom of the barrel at this point.
He's an alien. You want to know why he's physically separated from a lot of the people he's saving in those shots? Because he's literally, biologically separated from the human race. The look of confusion and anguish on his face is him understandably struggling with the unreality of being an extraterrestrial in such surreal situations, let alone the ensuing religious adulation. He is a farmer from Kansas who is emotionally unprepared for any of this, as anyone of us would be. Every action he takes has a metaphysical aftershock on mankind, which, obviously, is the entire point of the conversation with his surrogate father in the carpenter's shed. It's one thing to forfeit your humanity online in a discussion forum by saying you can't relate to his facial discomfort but to pretend these themes are entirely lost on you requires a willful disregard of the basic underlying premise of the Superman.
It was a very well written OP but you guys really are scraping the bottom of the barrel at this point.
There is none so far. He's only been interesting to watch when he has a foe strong enough to withstand his punch.
MugiwaraCole
Member
There is none.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Exactly. I wrote on GAF a while ago that the main issue with the Snyder movies isn't the characters, so much as the environment that he puts those characters into. Goddam if the DCEU Earth isn't a bleak-as-hell place to live. Just like the "End is Nigh" world of Watchmen.
PanSexual_Peacock
Member
Right now, it's to see if he can be redeemed.
BoogieWoogie
Banned
His powers/Christ analogy.
When the Senate blows up and everyone is encased by fire, Superman stands around looking sad:
Fun fact in the directors cut there is a sequence of him rescuing people from the explosion and bringing them to EMT workers. Yet another very needed scene that was cut from the theatrical release.
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
What is all this "He's an alien god, of course he can't relate to humans" bollocks?
IT'S CLARK FUCKING KENT!
IT'S CLARK FUCKING KENT!
dragonyeuw
Member
This interpretation of the character is more or less defined by the environment and the story Zack Snyder wants to put him in. What's mostly being said in this thread is that as a result, the character doesn't resonate or inspire and there's been enough discussion on that topic( on this forum and in general social media) testifying to that. Superman at his core is a symbol of hope, not a symbol of pity due to reasons x, y and z as you've stated above. A montage of Superman saving people shouldn't be filmed in a way that we should feel sorry for his burden and internal conflict to be and do good. I want to feel good watching Superman do great things. Frankly, with how shitty life is unfolding before our very eyes, I could use a bit more MCU Captain America inspiration and less 'do I really have to save this person' DCU Superman moping. Life is depressing enough on its own merits.
He was also raised by down to earth humans
JonnyDBrit
Member
...wait, seriously? Why in the world would you cut that?
Dash_Riprock
Member
DC fans trying (And failing) to justify a piss poor interpretation of the character.
The movie was long and had to cut stuff
You also needed time for dream sequences and justice league trailers
Jack Random
Member
Superman is supposed to be about an alien who is brought up by good people, gains their morals and values. he uses his powers for good because that's the way he was raised. He has a certain innocence and charm to him.
Snyder's superman plays like an alien who's never seen actual humans before and has no idea what it's like to live on this planet. like he read someplace that people in burning buildings should probably be saved, but it never feels like something he's happy about.
Snyder's superman plays like an alien who's never seen actual humans before and has no idea what it's like to live on this planet. like he read someplace that people in burning buildings should probably be saved, but it never feels like something he's happy about.
Lights and Waves
Member
Do you see how you contradicted yourself from one sentence to another? Lol.
"He's an alien, of course he can't fucking relate to humans. He's a farmer from Kansas!"
He lived the majority of his list as a human. Diana comes to man's world and instantly knows that protecting innocent life is the right thing to do. Snyder is to blame.
Because they needed to make room for the scene where Batman murders a dozen people. Priorities.
Superman is supposed to be charming and generally pretty happy, Snyder made him moppy and emotionally unstable. I get what he's going for, it's in the tone of MoS and BvS. Snyder's idea was to try to make him more interesting by showing different emotions for supes than what has been shown before. So they had him be more emotional and less interested in being Superman and doing superhero things. He's supposed to be more vulnerable the way Snyder did him but it comes more across that he just doesn't care.
Also a lot of the shots of him destroying trucks and buildings were obviously done for effects shots for trailers and the like. I don't think they thought enough ahead about that because it just comes across as negligent in the final product. Not to mention the destruction at the end of the movie, that did not go over well at all. Especially when you think about the original Zod fight in Superman 2, supes goes out of his way to protect people and structures from harm, mostly at his own expense which to me is the Superman thing to do.
Also a lot of the shots of him destroying trucks and buildings were obviously done for effects shots for trailers and the like. I don't think they thought enough ahead about that because it just comes across as negligent in the final product. Not to mention the destruction at the end of the movie, that did not go over well at all. Especially when you think about the original Zod fight in Superman 2, supes goes out of his way to protect people and structures from harm, mostly at his own expense which to me is the Superman thing to do.
In a world that is more cynical than ever, where people will shit on you for doing the right thing in the wrong way, and where the systems we build keep failing us, Snyder's Superman is innately good, and still strives to see the goodness in everyone.
He's underappreciated.
In a world that he wants to protect but the world is scared of him.
Synder however has fucked things up, Man of Steel just gave him shit and stripped his morals and BvS, we know how that goes.
I fear if we get Black Suit Superman and what I fear might happen, it's over.
Dash_Riprock
Member
Was he trying to see the goodness in everyone when he wrecked that guy's truck? Or when he punted that African warlord through a wall and killed him? (and yes, he's dead. Don't you dare fucking tell me he survived that shit)
The directors cut of BvS is a significantly better movie. Almost all of Superman's character building scenes were cut from the film.
If you're against destroying the truck of a dirtbag asshole to teach him a lesson, your problem is as much with Superman as portrayed in the Snyder films as it is with Superman as portrayed by everyone else ever, and every vigilante superhero for that matter, because that is how the whole genre operates.
"trying to see the good in everyone" doesn't mean "never hurting anyone ever", because sometimes they're warlords, or they're loose in a big city doing as much damage as they can with no intention of ever stopping. There's a nuance there, and you'd have to argue in pretty bad faith not to see it.
CoolestSpot
Banned
I was so upset after B.V.S. that when I went home, I planned out my own verison of the movie that was set in the Donner-verse that ended in a fight with Composite SuperBatman. I'm that guy.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
What separates him from WW, who is also in that same cynical world and manages to also be innately good?
Discotheque
Banned
The framing of superman was certainly lacking in being inspiring in man of steel. It only worked in like one scene at the oil tanker. I thought that was a great moment. Otherwise he rang pretty hollow as a superhero even if he was saving the world. Tbh I think marvel films have dropped the ball on this aspect too big time for me. Only really the Raimi Spider-Man got that feeling right imo.
In BvS' case I think they make it a point to portray superman as a reluctant hero though. Even the one big montage scene showing his world endeavors is narrated by a bunch of journalists and talking heads debating whether or not he even belongs on their planet and if they should accept his help. Whole time he looks burdened like he's literally atlas holding the world on his back
I totally understand the whole #notmysuperman camp, but I thought it was an interesting place to take the character and I liked it
In BvS' case I think they make it a point to portray superman as a reluctant hero though. Even the one big montage scene showing his world endeavors is narrated by a bunch of journalists and talking heads debating whether or not he even belongs on their planet and if they should accept his help. Whole time he looks burdened like he's literally atlas holding the world on his back
I totally understand the whole #notmysuperman camp, but I thought it was an interesting place to take the character and I liked it
CoolestSpot
Banned
"She was seperated from it, and he was raised in it" would probabaly be the arguement given from synderverse fans. The whole movie of Wonder Woman is dealing with how cynical the world.
Doesn't mean I agree with the fact Superman has to be as depressing as the world he's in, in fact I'd say the whole point of his character is the opposite.
At the very least in BvS, Wonder Woman has actually withdrawn from the world, having taken from her confrontation with Ares the idea that her intervention in mankind's affairs only made things worse. And then, seeing Superman fight, she's inspired to come back, because, and that's key to the worldview of Batman V. Superman: Dawn of Justice, "men are still good".
Fancyarcher
Member
It's not that he doesn't seem to care, it's that he spends too much of his time in both films, kinda just sullying a lot Jor-El tells him to have people look up to him, and he kinda fails at that. Sure he does eventually come through in the end, but that's not enough to help the poor inconsistent characteriazation. Also I prefer my Superman to be a big boyscout, entirely inspiration, or a serious reporter when he's Clark Kent. I love that version of the character.
Wonder Woman in Wonder Woman or Captain America in the MCU is what Superman should have been. It's a crying shame, he wasn't.
He's powerful, even though Batman kinda owned his ass, because he's Batman. Also he has a potentially interesting compelling arc, which Snyder and co never really took advantage because of "action".
Wonder Woman in Wonder Woman or Captain America in the MCU is what Superman should have been. It's a crying shame, he wasn't.
He's powerful, even though Batman kinda owned his ass, because he's Batman. Also he has a potentially interesting compelling arc, which Snyder and co never really took advantage because of "action".
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
Right, maybe I'm asking the wrong question here.
Is he really a contrast? Or an effective one? MCU Cap acts as a similar contrast until Civil War. Hell he was still one in CW, but for a different, grayer reason.
But when he does, it is notable, highlightable, joked about, frames the world around him, as well as shown.
I argue that for Snyder Superman, that contrast is so watered it is barely noticeable compared to WW.
WaterAstro
Member
I can't think anything about Man of Steel because it's one incoherent edited mess.
That's probably one reason.
That's probably one reason.
It takes a special kind of hack to use this in their MoS defense video without providing the actual context.
This is the closest thing to a climax of Superman's arc throughout the series and he "only" fucks up a minor amount of the city.
Lights and Waves
Member
I'd argue that Clark has even more reason to protect the Earth. Having grown up in it, he's seen the good in the world.
Diana comes to the world and is immediately exposed to war, sexism, pollution, political cowardice, etc.
Lights and Waves
Member
One interesting thing I learned from the WW Blu-ray extras is that Patty is in love with Donner Superman and credits that film as the movie that inspired her to be a filmmaker.
People have short memories. You can change alter course.
They need an excutive producer like Fiege not a director.
MHWilliams
Member
This is largely the problem. That's a story that could be told. I would enjoy seeing that story. That is not the story I felt while watching the film.
ok henry it goes like this you grab him by the neck AND SNAP THE SHIT OUT OF IT LIKE THIS WHABOOOOSH YEAHHHH AWESOME
I mean, that just a director showing an actor what they're looking for in a scene.
I feel through all of this Bleepey, you refuse to engage with the idea that there is a hard disconnect between the text of MoS and BvS, and what many people took away from it. Veelk has offered that the disconnect is due to the way the film was shot. And perhaps that's it, given, as you point out that other interpretations fall to similar actions but are seen as more inspiring.
Pretty much this.
An immigrant with godlike power doing a thankless job in a world that actively hates him. I just feel there are far better executions of the idea in other media. I'm not getting anything particularly new from it.
CoolestSpot
Banned
This is my main point I missed in my post last page; why does Superman help the world? Is it because he knows it's the right thing to do? Out of guilt for his father? Without his family being a grounding point for his ethics, Clark has no reason to be Superman. The character's strength has always been how he is good because he knows it's right, but here it seems like he doubts that even.
I do enjoy the scenes at the start of MoS of vagabond Clark helping people, and even the trucker scene. They humanize and add to his character. But I still don't see a drive for helping others besides "well, cause".
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
Good point.
I guess I feel like that appeal and theme was undermined hard by the script.
It felt like Superman was more into the idea of doing good and doing it because he can and at times only he can. It didn't feel like a Steve or a Diana where they make it clear it is in their core.
I would support this.
CoolestSpot
Banned
Exactly. This verison of Superman, and really most on screen ones so far, have failed at showing why Superman wants to help people, and showing the good hearted Kanas boy Clark is.