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Sooo... Super Mario Bros 2 JP/Lost Levels is not the best, huh?

Boogiepop

Member
In my hype for Odyssey, I decided it was finally tackle the one official Mario platformer I'd never played, SMB2(JP)/the Lost Levels.

And... Man, it pretty much set the Mario ROM hack standards more than anything else, huh? Like, it just feels... off. It's designed to be hard, definitely, but... in kind of a cheap way. Like, I'll admit that I save stated at the start of levels for a more direct continue option, because... man, I don't really have time to put up with this game's BS. If nothing else, by the time I got to the stupid stage (7-3, I think?) where it's those super springs+wind and you've gotta land on tiny platforms over and over (with the note that those springs send you off the screen and, at least to someone unfamiliar with the mechanics, where you come down feels really imprecise), and that's most of the stage, I felt totally justified in my cheating there. Because that's... frankly just kind of poor level design, and feels like the worst kind of "hard". On top of that, the game apparently has a hard time handling what it's trying to do, because I got a good number of times where stuff just didn't spawn right. Most notably, it happened a LOT with the fire bars.

All in all, it's... frankly just kind of frustrating more than anything else. I plowed through all the stages, then actually managed World 9 "legit" in that I never died, presumably because it's so much easier, even with the one life thing. Though that wouldn't be true had I not come in with a shroom by fortunate random chance, because in 9-3, the Blue Bowser spawned stuck in the floor awkwardly in such a way that I didn't seem to be able to get around him, so I needed to tank a hit. If nothing else, those "arigatou" blocks at the end give this game SOME minor legacy, in that I guess it's technically the first Mario to do that whole "thank you" thing (putting it after some super hard bs, aka this entire game, too, which is how it pops up lately, too...)

And then... there would be World A-D, but maaaan... I really, really don't feel like playing through the game 7 more times, even if I could use warps. Especially when some of the "reward" stages are apparently just remixes anyway. Just out of curiousity: it was a disk system game, right? So... did it at least save those stars? Or did the poor Japanese kids back in the day have to grind that all out in one sitting if they wanted to play those stages?

Anyway, yeah... this is really, really not the most impressive Mario game. Kind of a shame to figure out it's as awkward as it is. I guess in the end, the US kind of got the better Mario 2 in the end, ultimately, via Doki Doki Panic (and yes, I know they went back and released Mario USA or whatever in Japan, so they got everything regardless).
 

NathanS

Member
Disagree, never had spawning issue and never felt it was cheap. It's not Mario's best, but I'd put it above SMB 2 USA.
 

ghibli99

Member
Yeah, I wasn't able to hang with it for long. As different as US SMB2 is, it's still a much more fun game to actually play and get through.
 

Sheroking

Member
"Feels like a rom hack" is kind of the point. Rom hacks basically exist to make the game new and more challenging and that's exactly what Lost Levels is.

Besides some new physics, it's just an iteration of 1 including all of the assets.
 

FiveSide

Banned
Zelda II and Castlevania II are superior to this crap.

The original SMB is still my favorite 2D Mario. Can't believe they botched the follow-up so completely. Going from SMB2 (JP) to SMB3 is a DMC2 -> DMC3-tier jump in quality.

Mega Man 2 is a miracle when you look at the trends these other franchises had.
 
I'm in a weird place, because I love the the All Stars/Lost Levels version of the game but don't really disgree with any of your criticisms. The level design can be maddeningly cheap with some of the tricks that they pull (invisible blocks, blind leaps, enemies strategically placed to fuck you up on your first attempt at the level). But at least in the All Stars version you can save after every level, which essentially gives you unlimited continues, and I found it incredibly satisfying to replay individual levels until I had mastered them.

After getting used to that difficulty level I kind of find it hard to go back to SMB1. It just feels so basic by comparison.
 
I'm in a weird place, because I love the the All Stars/Lost Levels version of the game but don't really disgree with any of your criticisms. The level design can be maddeningly cheap with some of the tricks that they pull (invisible blocks, blind leaps, enemies strategically placed to fuck you up on your first attempt at the level). But at least in the All Stars version you can save after every level, which essentially gives you unlimited continues, and I found it incredibly satisfying to replay individual levels until I had mastered them.

After getting used to that difficulty level I kind of find it hard to go back to SMB1. It just feels so basic by comparison.

I'm with you on this one. I first played SMB2J on Wii VC Import, and I loved getting to sit down and master it (this was back then when I was only in school and had free time). It's definitely clunky in comparison to every other Mario title, but I think it beats out SMB1 by a long shot.
 

D.Lo

Member
Yeah it was a really smart move by NOA rejecting SMB2J. It's just a hard mode expansion pack.

Doki Doki was a Miyamoto original definitely a big step up in game design, graphics and sound.
 

FiveSide

Banned
I feel the same way about Master Quest. Felt like a damn romhack

Maybe it was kept from us for a reason.

Huh, I was pleasantly surprised with Master Quest. It's kind of like a NG+, I was bummed after playing it that the later games didn't have something similar. I actually prefer the child Link dungeons in MQ.

MQ was also tough but still fair. SMB2 is cheap and has too many "gatcha!" moments. Literally like a romhack, as a few posts already mentioned. And not even a good one.
 

mrmickfran

Member
Huh, I was pleasantly surprised with Master Quest. It's kind of like a NG+, I was bummed after playing it that the later games didn't have something similar. I actually prefer the child Link dungeons in MQ.

MQ was also tough but still fair. SMB2 is cheap and has too many "gatcha!" moments. Literally like a romhack, as a few posts already mentioned. And not even a good one.
Master Quest just felt... devoid of soul. And nonsensical.

Floating cows, REALLY?
 
It broke rules Mario 1 established all for the sake of cheap difficulty. As much as I disliked them when I was young for leaving the "real" Mario 2 behind, NoA probably made the right call.
 

RedToad64

Member
If you are going to play it, do the All-Stars version. It has unlimited continues for every level, making it much easier to digest and feels a lot more fair.
 

Tain

Member
It rules, actually. DDP is a good game as well, sure, but I love SMB2J’s crazy-focused stage design and I wish more sequels were made with a difficulty curve that practically picks up where the prior ended.

Sixfortyfive wrote a great post about it here a while ago (maybe years), can’t dig it up at the moment.
 

RedToad64

Member
I thought the original has unlimited continues as well?
The original does not start you back to the beginning of the stage you just failed. Instead, you can only go back to the start of the World.

I has been a while, so I'm probably wrong.
 

TreIII

Member
It's fun, certainly.

But I'm definitely glad we got USA, instead. SMB2/USA is one of my fave all time games, let alone Mario titles.
 

jaypah

Member
It's not a great game. SMB 1 is my favorite Mario game but this game just didn't make much sense. I'm glad that I've played through it a few times just to experience it but man, it's not great. It can be fun in a pure challenge sense but thats about it. I also wasn't a big fan of SMB2 USA even at the time. I thought it looked great and I liked the different playable characters but it never stuck with me like 1 and 3. I played through it a few times and moved on. Having said that, I still prefer USA to JP SMB2. By a decent degree.
 

Paltheos

Member
"Feels like a rom hack" is kind of the point. Rom hacks basically exist to make the game new and more challenging and that's exactly what Lost Levels is.

Besides some new physics, it's just an iteration of 1 including all of the assets.

That's not what he's saying. "Feels like a rom hack" is a derogatory description for poor, not difficult design.

It's a meaning I learned from trying out a Super Metroid hack that was pretty well-received and supposed to enhance the experience but ultimately felt amateurish. My go-to example for explaining this is a long row of one-way breakable blocks in Crateria that necessitate, no matter what you have or do, to trek through an entire other area to get back to where you started. They weren't there to teach the player anything, they were gaudy in their placement, and they succeeded only in making the experience tedious.
 

BigDug13

Member
Zelda II and Castlevania II are superior to this crap.

The original SMB is still my favorite 2D Mario. Can't believe they botched the follow-up so completely. Going from SMB2 (JP) to SMB3 is a DMC2 -> DMC3-tier jump in quality.

Mega Man 2 is a miracle when you look at the trends these other franchises had.

Zelda 2 and Castlevania 2 are awesome so not saying much here.
 
And then... there would be World A-D, but maaaan... I really, really don't feel like playing through the game 7 more times, even if I could use warps. Especially when some of the "reward" stages are apparently just remixes anyway. Just out of curiousity: it was a disk system game, right? So... did it at least save those stars? Or did the poor Japanese kids back in the day have to grind that all out in one sitting if they wanted to play those stages?

Yeah, the FDS floppy would record your game-beatings status, up to like 13 or 15 or something?
 
Probably the best Mario game. SMB1 is great - but SMB2 really took its systems to the next level, making levels that really bring out the best in SMB1's movement and enemies and demand full attention from the player. Future Mario games really moved away from that, opting instead to entertain the player with tons of stage gimmicks that only last for a level or two - which isn't bad, but Mario 2 JP is definitely a tighter game than what came after. (USA Mario 2 is cool but doesn't compare favorably to any of the other NES Mario games at all.)

It broke rules Mario 1 established all for the sake of cheap difficulty. As much as I disliked them when I was young for leaving the "real" Mario 2 behind, NoA probably made the right call.

It's challenging, but it's still an extremely fair game. Everything in it that can kill you is telegraphed, just as it is in SMB1. The game is certainly more demanding than its predecessor - which probably throws a lot of people off because SMB1 throws softballs at you for the majority of its runtime - but that doesn't make it unreasonable or unfair. (I won't defend 7-3 - awkward, clumsy gimmick - but beyond that everything that subverts your SMB1 expectations does so in a positive way.

I thought the original has unlimited continues as well?

Yes, but you restart the world you're on upon running out of lives. In the SNES version you restart from the beginning of the stage you're in no matter what.

I don't recommend the SNES version. Feels like playing a game that's been chopped up by savestates or something - the pacing is much better in the NES version.
 

Bakercat

Member
I remember beating the lost levels years ago when I was a teen. It was the first and only time I was able to beat it. I was able to record it at the time on my crappy flip phone to show people that I was super cool and a badass to be able to beat the game. Too bad I lost it lol. Oh well, I proved to myself that I could beat it and I have no reason to ever play it again.
 

Renekton

Member
The original does not start you back to the beginning of the stage you just failed. Instead, you can only go back to the start of the World.

I has been a while, so I'm probably wrong.
That sounds better actually, some later stages may be easier if you got a shroom from earlier.
 
Probably the best Mario game. SMB1 is great - but SMB2 really took its systems to the next level, making levels that really bring out the best in SMB1's movement and enemies and demand full attention from the player. Future Mario games really moved away from that, opting instead to entertain the player with tons of stage gimmicks that only last for a level or two - which isn't bad, but Mario 2 JP is definitely a tighter game than what came after. (USA Mario 2 is cool but doesn't compare favorably to any of the other NES Mario games at all.)



It's challenging, but it's still an extremely fair game. Everything in it that can kill you is telegraphed, just as it is in SMB1. The game is certainly more demanding than its predecessor - which probably throws a lot of people off because SMB1 throws softballs at you for the majority of its runtime - but that doesn't make it unreasonable or unfair. (I won't defend 7-3 - awkward, clumsy gimmick - but beyond that everything that subverts your SMB1 expectations does so in a positive way.



Yes, but you restart the world you're on upon running out of lives. In the SNES version you restart from the beginning of the stage you're in no matter what.

I don't recommend the SNES version. Feels like playing a game that's been chopped up by savestates or something - the pacing is much better in the NES version.

Lol no. They are trampolines that sends you into bad secrets rooms to warps you back to previous levels FFS. It's mario maker bad kaizo jokes level of bad.
 
Lol no. They are trampolines that sends you into bad secrets rooms to warps you back to previous levels FFS. It's mario maker bad kaizo jokes level of bad.

A gag that shows up twice and that hardly punishes you (you don't have to take the reverse warps if you happen upon them) does not make the game unreasonably difficult, no.
 

C4Lukins

Junior Member
It feels like a mod for Super Mario Bros. and not a sequel. Maybe a super hard difficulty expansion, but even then it feels like a different set of people made it. Which maybe they did, I know little of the history of it.

It feels like rejected levels from the original, that had little to no flow, and then some really hard shit was added after the fact to make it more compelling. I dunno. I think the franchise benefited from this game being skipped over in the west, but it is a novelty that we now can enjoy for what it was.
 
A gag that shows up twice and that hardly punishes you (you don't have to take the reverse warps if you happen upon them) does not make the game unreasonably difficult, no.

Don't twists the words, I was bolding the fair game part. Kaizo blocks doesn't make a level unreasonably difficult either, it's just bullshit time wasters.
 
I think it was Tim Rogers who once said:

If SMB1, with its kindness and caring, is the New Testament, introducing us to its savior, then SMB2 is the Old Testament, where God is a fucking psychopath.

Honestly I feel like a big reason why "Super Mario USA" was integrated into the overall canon as much as it was is because as weird as it was it was a better sequel than the JP SMB2.
 
This is the perfect example of why I dont like this game

tumblr_n1ibmgcsvX1rrftcdo1_500.gif


This is a giant FU to anyone even trying to enjoy it.
 
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