1. Stats are a major factor, but not the only factor.
2. He's in every Tekken game.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Harada makes a statement about the lack/choice of classic characters in Tekken 7
- Thread starter Eolz
- Start date
1. Stats are a major factor, but not the only factor.
2. He's in every Tekken game.
GrantDaNasty
Member
I'd also like to imagine since Kuma is Heihachi's pet/bodyguard, Harada wants to make sure as long as Heihachi is in, his furry friend is also.
People need to stop taking Namco PR talk seriously. Tekken 7's roster includes whoever Namco wants to include. That's the only reason.
So was a Chang.
So was a Chang.
A few points in response to this:
Tiers are squashed in Tekken 7. There really isn't a big gulf between characters who aren't and are worth playing in a casual or online environment, competitive play is another story but even then it isn't as extreme as in other games.
Tiers don't necessarily line up with who is commonly played or not. Given that Tekken 7 is currently recognised as having a tier list for tournaments and another for long sets at a competitive level I wouldn't even want to assume that they would tally up with who is popular with casuals or online.
Finally I'd like to say that developers don't determine tiers, they absolutely have a massive impact during development and after a game is released but it is down to players to dig into different characters and find what is good about them. Clearly they can make a character that is good, bad or broken but I would be really surprised if a development team sat down and set out a tier list that they were going to follow throughout development. Tiers are an emergent property in a fighting game, not a design choice.
Chloe, Gigas, and Josie were absolutely not needed as "new" characters. Claudio, Katarina, and Kazumi would have been sufficient as new characters. I personally am also irritated with the addition of Akuma and Eliza even though I didn't mind them during their initial reveal.
Lei, Julia, Marduk, and Anna should have all been in the game.
I choose to believe the only reason Tekken 7 did well is because it was the first major 3D fighter on current gen platforms that isn't a port. If DoA and VF had new entries in the market, I don't know if Tekken 7 would have performed as well. People were just thirsting for a current gen 3D fighter.
Lei, Julia, Marduk, and Anna should have all been in the game.
I choose to believe the only reason Tekken 7 did well is because it was the first major 3D fighter on current gen platforms that isn't a port. If DoA and VF had new entries in the market, I don't know if Tekken 7 would have performed as well. People were just thirsting for a current gen 3D fighter.
Harada needs to stop responding to these fanboys crying everyday about why ___ is not in the game because he added everyone into TTT2 plus content and it still sold below expectations.
He should also explain why the f there's two bears and Bob in Tekken 7 over more popular characters. They had to announce two new characters at EVO because they knew how deflating the news of Bob being reintroduced would be.
Tekken 7 doesn't need more characters at this point. It needs more features because the game is pretty barebones, story mode sucks, and bowling has no online component.
He should also explain why the f there's two bears and Bob in Tekken 7 over more popular characters. They had to announce two new characters at EVO because they knew how deflating the news of Bob being reintroduced would be.
Tekken 7 doesn't need more characters at this point. It needs more features because the game is pretty barebones, story mode sucks, and bowling has no online component.
sixteen-bit
Member
Wait Shaheen isn't new as well?
Oh my god dude. Mastering simply the movement engine in Tekken is more of a gargantuan task for me than learning the whole systems of other games. Tekken is a very very hard game to play even in terms of execution, saying nothing of the actual meat of fighters which is dealing with matchups. Don't let the fact that you can mash some buttons to perform easy target combos cloud the fact that Tekken is an extremely complex game.
potatohead
Member
Bob is my only good character don't take him from me
Noisepurge
Member
Yeah it's much flashier in terms of buttonmashing to make cool shit happen on screen than 2D fighters where you need to learn the basics of QCF special moves for example.
I always suggest Tekken, Soul Calibur or Dead or Alive to friends who "just want a fighting game" without any intention of learning how to play
Via Purifico
Banned
I'd argue that Kuma is more popular than Panda but that's neither here nor there. He says usage data and popularity all the time when it's useful to say so I wouldn't take it that seriously.
But personally I want some of the SP modes back like team battle, treasure battle is nice though.
But personally I want some of the SP modes back like team battle, treasure battle is nice though.
Niceguydan8
Member
Do you have analysis to suggest what he's saying is not true or flawed in some way preferably backed by data?
Without an alternate suggestion, it just looks like you're disagreeing with him without actually making any clear points as to why.
I would personally prefer data-informed decisions as opposed to not having data to inform any decisions. It's a hot take, I know.
I'm waiting for a game that buffs everyone instead of nerfing. Would be interesting, everyone would be viable because everyone is broken?
At least make another mode called "Chaos" or something like that where everyone gets to keeps their brokeness (Except maybe crazy infinite loops).
Show me this "data" that says any Tekken game had characters like Kuma that were played more than a Chang.
This is Namco PR damage control.
Not saying it isn't a deep and complex fighter (it's my favourite fighting series by far), just saying that it's also pretty beginner-friendly in a way that other games don't appear to be
Anecdotally, I know casual players that pick up every Tekken game but shy away from 2D fighters - sales data would generally back that up, too, if Tekken 7 figs vs. MvC:I figs etc are to be believed
Sorcerer Supreme
Member
lol seriously this
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
No, this is trying to make a controversy over nothing. lol
MVCI doesn't have an attractive roster for casuals and the game visually isn't a looker.
I'm really surprised if the usage data is saying Lei was not that popular. I never used him after Tekken 2 but still felt his style would make him a fan favorite in the series.
Characters like Marduk and Anna make sense but Lei seeems a little hard to believe.
Ironically, Bob seems to be getting a lot of hate in this thread but from what I have seen he is very popular. Some of that may be people looking at tiers and selecting him but who knows.
For me personally I used Bob a decent amount before even looking at any tier lists in Tekken 6.
Characters like Marduk and Anna make sense but Lei seeems a little hard to believe.
Ironically, Bob seems to be getting a lot of hate in this thread but from what I have seen he is very popular. Some of that may be people looking at tiers and selecting him but who knows.
For me personally I used Bob a decent amount before even looking at any tier lists in Tekken 6.
Tier totally matters. That's why FANG is at the bottom of the monthly SFV usage stats month after month after month. If the character is ass anyone who plays the game for more than a month will not use that character; they'll dedicate their time to someone they think they are most likely to win with.
Star Orpheus
Member
How popular is Tekken with the casual crowd because this logic seems to close out anyone who plays mainly to mess around or with single player.(Yes we exist)
Not saying pander exclusivly to the other but limiting characters depending on how often their played strikes me as odd.
Not saying pander exclusivly to the other but limiting characters depending on how often their played strikes me as odd.
Peep that crowd reaction from the Japanese Kuma reveal trailer.
Via Purifico
Banned
I don't think it's a stretch to say he adds and removes who he wants to tbh.
Bamco's sales projections for T7's home version was 2.1M by March 31, 2018. They've already sold over 2M by September 2017.
It's doing pretty well.
kunonabi
Member
Anna is my main and always will be. Her omission, much like Taki in Soul Calibur, is why I haven't bought T7.
Star Orpheus
Member
Well good for them. Not being sarcastic Im glad.
Never really tried Tekken as like I said Im a casual fighting game fan and the series didnt interest me that much.
I just know that if a character I liked was removed becuase they werent played online enough is probably be upset. But Im sure its not that simple I was just wondering.
I mean, it has buffering and target combos instead of for example, move links in Street Fighter. But creating and optimising custom combos and aerial combos, combined with the movement engine is what dominates competitive play.
It's easier to pick up and have some fun with than say, Guilty Gear or even Street Fighter, but that I think is more to do with the ridiculous abundance of moves; if you hammer some buttons, something that looks superficially flashy is undoubtedly going to happen, whereas without practice, the flashiest thing you're going to get as a beginner in a Street Fighter is maybe an EX Shoryuken.
The true beginner friendly, and relatively simple game in the genre has always been Soul Calibur. It's what I'd pick every time when I want to get someone into fighting games without having them spend hours in practice mode.
Whatever the F reason Namco wants from whether they know they can milk T&A DLC/merchandise for a character's presence in the game to how much they can get away with recycling prior games assets to even if the CEO's niece wanted XYZ in the game. Pick any reason.
Eating up this singular Namco excuse of "XYZ wasn't popular hence we didn't include them" is completely on you.
Honestly scratching my head at the number of people who are into a series in a big way but won't buy it if a certain character isn't in.
Like... I get lei and zafina since Tekken 7 doesn't have as many stance based characters, and those that do are step-stances, or Hwo. I'm on board with MVCI suffering because of the lack of xmen and doom since they were such iconic and instrumental characters in 2 and 3 that we might only get in another form with dlc but taki?
You gonna tell me Natsu isn't just taki? Like SCV is probably $5 in some sale right now, if you were that keen on a game to have a main I don't understand how you didn't split a few dollars to try out the new one.
I played hakan in sf4, I played that ass low tier character since super came out, I played in tournaments and I played online and I fucking loved that dumb ass character, oiling up noobs online and getting dumb wins at events because people didn't know what the fuck was going on, you gonna tell me I should have just ditched and not bought the game as a protest when he didn't turn up in sfv? I should have just sent some mad tweets at Ono every couple of weeks like I see Anna stans do every damn day with harada?
The answer is I probably shouldn't have as SFV is ass, but birdie was fun for a good while.
Like... I get lei and zafina since Tekken 7 doesn't have as many stance based characters, and those that do are step-stances, or Hwo. I'm on board with MVCI suffering because of the lack of xmen and doom since they were such iconic and instrumental characters in 2 and 3 that we might only get in another form with dlc but taki?
You gonna tell me Natsu isn't just taki? Like SCV is probably $5 in some sale right now, if you were that keen on a game to have a main I don't understand how you didn't split a few dollars to try out the new one.
I played hakan in sf4, I played that ass low tier character since super came out, I played in tournaments and I played online and I fucking loved that dumb ass character, oiling up noobs online and getting dumb wins at events because people didn't know what the fuck was going on, you gonna tell me I should have just ditched and not bought the game as a protest when he didn't turn up in sfv? I should have just sent some mad tweets at Ono every couple of weeks like I see Anna stans do every damn day with harada?
The answer is I probably shouldn't have as SFV is ass, but birdie was fun for a good while.
pretty done
Member
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Truth be told that was a ridiculous conservative estimate though it's much better position to be in than Capcom's.
Maybe it's because there are many obese nondescript Americans, but only one Jackie Chan with high powered lawyers?
CaptainLoveline
Member
Jun and Kunimitsu were popular characters, way more than Lei and either of the Changs, ah but not "Harada popular" I guess.
And speaking of Lei and Changs, they're series staple characters and yet they're missing with the only excuse being they're unpopular. (They're not, still more popular than fucking Kuma and Panda. Also I'm pretty sure Lei and the Changs are plot relevant)
So yeah Harada, you can fuck off with your rigged popularity contest.
And speaking of Lei and Changs, they're series staple characters and yet they're missing with the only excuse being they're unpopular. (They're not, still more popular than fucking Kuma and Panda. Also I'm pretty sure Lei and the Changs are plot relevant)
So yeah Harada, you can fuck off with your rigged popularity contest.
Bob is popular because he plays well. And as we know, how well a character plays can fluctuate between entries.
There isn't much evidence of people liking Bob because of his character.
Glass Rebel
Member
I understand but a Tekken without Lei is worthless to me, sorry.
The only character that get plot in Tekken are Mishimas and co.
Poor ones, but still...
I at least have the common sense to call out blatant corporate fabrications like Bears being more popular than Changs.
"corporate fabrications" = director explaining decisions with lengthy posts on twitter
Seriously you guys, you are embarrassing yourselves over this. Its obvious OP was just looking for trouble making this thread out of a twitter explanation Harada gave
Thor Molecules
Member
A character roster that is too large is a huge turnoff to new players, yet adding new characters is essential for gameplay to stay fresh. So it was time for Tekken to pare down and what we have now is the result.
Harada is passionate about this game and about his work on it, so the logical step was for him to make choices regarding the roster based on character usage data. Tekken has been online in arcades around the world for several versions now, plus they have stats from the console versions of T6 and TTT2, so it's not like they don't have this data.
Do you have the data? No. Namco does, and we see what they did in response to it. Does it suck that several players' mains were not included? Yes it does, and I wouldn't dispute that. But once again, it was time to shrink the roster. Something had to give. Not everyone was going to be happy. But if they cut characters that were more popular, even more people were going to be unhappy. So this was the result.
Maybe there were lots of people who liked Lei's character design but found his gameplay too complex to learn? I was one of those. But the reasons don't matter. He was cut because of low usage rate compared to other characters and that is what Harada is saying. There is no reason to believe that this is corporate-speak or some other BS. This was the logical step to take; cut the less-popular characters. Why does it have to be a conspiracy theory or "fake news?" It just makes sense. It sucks, I agree. But you have to move on just as they did.
Your choices are to either enjoy the game for what it is, or to not buy it.
CaptainLoveline
Member
He can still be criticised for shoddy explanations. He isn't immune to it.
homelessbaby
Member
FIghting games are so weird. There's nothing like Tekken and we buy the game but still don't get what we want. Imagine a FIFA without some niche but still clamoured for players?
You do realize Namco has complete access to the Harada_TEKKEN twitter account and has made posts from it (like when Harada went dark for a few hours and someone within Namco made a post on that twitter account inquiring about his whearabouts).
And regardless of whoever is making thsoe tweets there has been a very long history of fallible tweets.
Until Namco makes their "data" public, let's look at other tangible means to perceive popularity:
- I have at least 3,000 hours of online Tekken spread throughout Tekken 6 -> Tekken 7 over the past 8 years. Anyone with the same experience i had can recollect the number of times you see bears vs these cut characters.
- There are forum posts since during the days of Tekken Zaibatsu, look at the traffic you see on Bears and compare that with the cut characters, now it's been replaced by Discord but the discrepency is still there.
- Tekken had 2 years of us spectating casual play on Korean + Japanese streams at the arcades on youtube for T6/TTT2 and now Twitch for T7 and you can get empirical data on the number of times you saw Bears vs these cut characters.
- If you feel all the above metrics are biased to the elite, hardcore Tekken fanbase, then what can we look at to measure something that interests casuals? There can be stuff like Fanart, Cosplay, Fan Fiction? Even when you look at all those avenues, I challenge anyone to prove that Bears are more popular than these cut characters.
Feel free to believe Namco all you want, again that's on you. If it offends you to see me call them out on this then go ahead and block me. I've already given them my money and I'm playing the game, that doesn't mean they're exempt from being called out. Your choices are either move on believing what you want, rebut, or put the people who challenge these tweets on ignore. It's up to you.
"Criticism"
I get being upset over the shortcomings of the game and why, but we are at a point where this was known for a while and people are still ranting like it's day one with the usual "fuck you, I know better".