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[NickFire]

Considering how often drugs marketed as helpful end up causing adverse side effects, I believe it is absolutely a sin to give hormone injections or perform bodily mutilations on any child.

 

[TheMikado]

I don't know how you can want talk about suicide rates, without acknowledging that this group gets treated an order of magnitude worse than the general population. It just feels intellectually disingenuous.

That makes sense. A holistic approach sounds correct to my ear. Simply changing your body isn't a magic bullet. In my country (the UK) if you are becoming a transsexual then you have to go through a bunch of counselling, therefore when I talk about transitioning I think of it as coming with counselling automatically which may not be the case in other places.

Exactly and I really recommend others read that article because it covers a lot of topics we talked about in here. Such as the comparisons to anorexia and they fact that gender dysphoria is a condition and birth defect. Curing and accepting yourself and your body is separate from transitioning.

 

[Moneal]

That is very easy to answer and has been brought up on GAF a lot, back then.
What you are looking for is Gender Dysphoria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

If a person would not feel this distress, yes they would have no problem identifying as a "lesbian tomboy", as you put it. But they do, it is medically well observed, can and is being diagnosed by medical professionals and not just made up bogus like the cat people mentioned in this thread. That is the big and important difference.

The APA( American Psychiatric Association) does not define gender dysphoria as the distress, but that the distress is a symptom of the disorder.

 

[Journeywalker]

So they are more likely to kill themselves because of other people and not possibly because they have a mental illness....mmkay

Elevated suicide rates are not a sign that a sexuality or gender difference is a mental illness. Following that same logic, being lesbian, gay, or bisexual would be a mental illness (which it is not):

The Trevor Project--Suicide Rates Among LGB Teens

I think it has more to do with feeling "abnormal" and dealing with real, potential, or perceived rejection by loved ones. There's also a confounding factor in that gender reassignment study. What if the people that get gender reassignment surgery are the people that experience more gender dysphoria?

NOTE: PLOS One is not a highly-regarded journal, partly because it is pay-to-publish. They've also had some controversies:

PLOS One Controversies

 

[Musky_Cheese]

What religions are these that frown upon hygiene or jelly bean flavors?

Or are you simply being asinine toward religion?

I'm actually only interested in this thread to see how people respond to the issue of sin. Because the majority of the world is religious.

For example, one debates whether or not nothing is physiological or psychological, but what about the soul?

I don't think the dismissal of the role of sin is due to " drivel" as one user put it, but because it is incomprehensible.

For me it’s fine if someone doesn’t agree with a particular lifestyle.

It’s fine if you like porn and don’t want to watch it.

It’s fine if you want full bush.

It’s fine if you never want to eat butter popcorn or root beer jelly beans.

But when you try to stop others, then you have went to far.

 

[Dash27]

Right now I'd say I just don't know, but seems like it's a medical condition. Mental, hormonal, or just the stress of it makes people very unstable. I'd actually like to meet some normal non famous transgender people to talk with them. I know people saying they think it's a mental illness twists the SJW nips but when people just don't know and see Bruce Jenner transition, what are you supposed to think.

 

[Blam]

Can you expand on this? I don't quite understand your point.

What I mean is that if this is a problem there's really only 2 ways to fix it. Either torture them to get them to change their brain and how they think or your giving them what they'd want which is a female body. One of the 2 much easier and more humane.

I think you make a really good point here, and should be discussed a bit more. Just like everything else, being trans shouldn't be called a mental illness unless it interferes with their lives in a destructive way, in the same way that autism is not always considered detrimental or needing treatment. Many people who are trans simply don't have a problem being trans, and others struggle with it immensely. If people do struggle, isn't it more productive to classify it as a mental illness so they can get help? It's easy on this forum to share anecdotes about how people did or did not succeed, but I don't see that as productive. There are a wide spectrum of people that are trans, and each one will have different struggles.

I don't want it to blanket cover everyone as being mentally ill as it doesn't sound good when you tell someone you're trans they'll respond with? "So you're mentally ill? Or are you getting treatment?" But it really shouldn't be the first response you hear from people.

 

[Super Mario]

It's a mental illness and that is a fact. No amount of dialogue will change that. Below is some information from the American Psychiatric Foundation to refresh everyone's memory of what a mental illness is.

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/what-is-mental-illness

What Is Mental Illness?

Mental illness is nothing to be ashamed of. It is a medical problem, just like heart disease or diabetes.​

Mental illnesses are health conditions involving changes in thinking, emotion or behavior (or a combination of these). Mental illnesses are associated with distress and/or problems functioning in social, work or family activities.

Mental illness is common. In a given year:

• nearly one in five (19 percent) U.S. adults experience some form of mental illness
• one in 24 (4.1 percent) has a serious mental illness
• one in 12 (8.5 percent) has a substance use disorder*

Mental illness is treatable. The vast majority of individuals with mental illness continue to function in their daily lives.

Now where you can have dialogue is how we address mental illness, because no one has that answer.

There are tons of people who have mental illnesses. It doesn't make them any less of a person. It's a tough subject and tough for someone to admit to the world "I have a mental illness". I get that and get why people have such a problem with that label.

 

[Alx]

What I mean is that if this is a problem there's really only 2 ways to fix it. Either torture them to get them to change their brain and how they think or your giving them what they'd want which is a female body. One of the 2 much easier and more humane.

I don't think psychotherapy has to be "torture", and it could very well be humane. It's not an easy task, sure, but it shouldn't be dismissed altogether. One could argue that cutting organs from your body and replacing them with lesser functional alternatives isn't exactly a perfect solution either, nor is it 100% reliable.

 

[unhealthy_skeptic]

I don't want it to blanket cover everyone as being mentally ill as it doesn't sound good when you tell someone you're trans they'll respond with? "So you're mentally ill? Or are you getting treatment?" But it really shouldn't be the first response you hear from people.

We're talking about two different things here then. If you are talking about how to converse with someone that is trans, of course you should treat them with respect and not assume that their transgender affects their ability to be a normal person. I'm not advocating for putting up billboards telling trans people they're mentally ill. If we are discussing serious issues that trans people face, then we should take it seriously and give them a diagnosis that allows them to get the professional help they want or need. A key thing to keep in mind is that we do not have to conflate those that have issues with daily life due to their gender identity with those than don't. But refusing to even create a label for those that have issues prevents them from getting help.

 

[SkateorDi3]

Already banned from the "other" forum for not conforming to the groupthink on this.

 

[Shamylov]

It's a mental illness and that is a fact. No amount of dialogue will change that. Below is some information from the American Psychiatric Foundation to refresh everyone's memory of what a mental illness is.

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/what-is-mental-illness

What Is Mental Illness?

Mental illness is nothing to be ashamed of. It is a medical problem, just like heart disease or diabetes.​

Mental illnesses are health conditions involving changes in thinking, emotion or behavior (or a combination of these). Mental illnesses are associated with distress and/or problems functioning in social, work or family activities.

Mental illness is common. In a given year:

• 
  
  • nearly one in five (19 percent) U.S. adults experience some form of mental illness
  
  
  • one in 24 (4.1 percent) has a serious mental illness
  
  
  • one in 12 (8.5 percent) has a substance use disorder*

Mental illness is treatable. The vast majority of individuals with mental illness continue to function in their daily lives.

Now where you can have dialogue is how we address mental illness, because no one has that answer.

There are tons of people who have mental illnesses. It doesn't make them any less of a person. It's a tough subject and tough for someone to admit to the world "I have a mental illness". I get that and get why people have such a problem with that label.

It’s definitely not a fact that being transgender means you have a mental illness. These individuals are very much capable of living happy and fulfilling lives without distress or disability. Most of the problem is that society is not allowing them to do so. Although there are cases when there’s significant distress just for being trans.

“A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.
According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria." Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."

www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx

 

[Blam]

I don't think psychotherapy has to be "torture", and it could very well be humane. It's not an easy task, sure, but it shouldn't be dismissed altogether. One could argue that cutting organs from your body and replacing them with lesser functional alternatives isn't exactly a perfect solution either, nor is it 100% reliable.

Sure, but in my opinion psychotherapy is a much harder alternative for the patient, since they’d honestly be much harder to convince that what they are doing is wrong, or the likes. I don’t mean cutting organs from the body. I’m talking best case when they create one in a lab, and do it that way. The current method isn’t reliable at all, and I should have been more clear that I meant if the process for surgery was better.

We're talking about two different things here then. If you are talking about how to converse with someone that is trans, of course you should treat them with respect and not assume that their transgender affects their ability to be a normal person. I'm not advocating for putting up billboards telling trans people they're mentally ill. If we are discussing serious issues that trans people face, then we should take it seriously and give them a diagnosis that allows them to get the professional help they want or need. A key thing to keep in mind is that we do not have to conflate those that have issues with daily life due to their gender identity with those than don't. But refusing to even create a label for those that have issues prevents them from getting help.

Sure treating them with respect is a given, but trans people are not treated that way in quite a lot of places. It’s more that when talking to you people think somethings wrong with you, and they talk differently to you. I’m not saying to refuse creating a label. I’d rather have a different label be set out for the trans people who are actually being affected by this mentally.

 

[Shamylov]

Right now I'd say I just don't know, but seems like it's a medical condition. Mental, hormonal, or just the stress of it makes people very unstable. I'd actually like to meet some normal non famous transgender people to talk with them. I know people saying they think it's a mental illness twists the SJW nips but when people just don't know and see Bruce Jenner transition, what are you supposed to think.

Your last sentence makes it sounds like ignorant people should just go with their gut feeling that it’s wrong or gross. I think that’s the wrong approach. It should be an opportunity to get educated so that we as a society treat a marginalized group of humans better.

 

[unhealthy_skeptic]

Sure treating them with respect is a given, but trans people are not treated that way in quite a lot of places. It’s more that when talking to you people think somethings wrong with you, and they talk differently to you. I’m not saying to refuse creating a label. I’d rather have a different label be set out for the trans people who are actually being affected by this mentally.

I can't help but feel you are conflating social issues with mental issues. Yes, there is a problem with how transgendered people are treated across the world. But what possible better term can you come up with for describing the issue? Transgender is factually correct and easily understood, and it is a source of problems for many who identify as such.

 

[Blam]

I can't help but feel you are conflating social issues with mental issues. Yes, there is a problem with how transgendered people are treated across the world. But what possible better term can you come up with for describing the issue? Transgender is factually correct and easily understood, and it is a source of problems for many who identify as such.

I probably am, and it's probably my personal bias on the subject showing through. Didn't mean to merge the 2 together. I ramble a bit when it comes to this subject. I mean I can't think of a new term off the top of my head. Any of the ones I've currently thought of have been pretty bad.

 

[TheMikado]

I probably am, and it's probably my personal bias on the subject showing through. Didn't mean to merge the 2 together. I ramble a bit when it comes to this subject. I mean I can't think of a new term off the top of my head. Any of the ones I've currently thought of have been pretty bad.

Condition. Its a psychology condition. Which is a medical term.

 

[TheMikado]

Sure, but in my opinion psychotherapy is a much harder alternative for the patient, since they’d honestly be much harder to convince that what they are doing is wrong, or the likes. I don’t mean cutting organs from the body. I’m talking best case when they create one in a lab, and do it that way. The current method isn’t reliable at all, and I should have been more clear that I meant if the process for surgery was better.

Therapy wouldn't be for convincing someone they are not trans. It would be for treating the the mental state and combating Gender Dysphoria.
The most effective means of combating Gender Dysphoria is counseling. That does not mean people will or will not transition. It just means the mental distress of gender dysphoria before the decision to transition is decided upon.

 

[Tumle]

I think people have a problem with it becoming normalized because they think it will become a trend, a trend that might end up with irreversible consequences. I do object to parents giving their kinds sex reassignment surgery and what not. I remember talking to friends one day and they feared that now maybe the girls they have sex with might turn out to be transgender. And now not being attracted to transgender makes you a bigot.

This wasn`t really a big deal 5 or 6 years ago but now everyone is talking about it. Its all very confusing

Well those same people had the same paranoid idea about gays, hip hop/rap, Rock ‘n’ roll, action movies and computer games...
It’s nothing new. Only thing new about it to an extent is the subject matter

 

[Papa]

Perhaps if we didn’t stigmatize mental illness, this wouldn’t be an issue and transgendered people could get the treatment they require.

 

[Palliasso]

It's a mental illness and that is a fact. No amount of dialogue will change that. Below is some information from the American Psychiatric Foundation to refresh everyone's memory of what a mental illness is.

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/what-is-mental-illness

What Is Mental Illness?

Mental illness is nothing to be ashamed of. It is a medical problem, just like heart disease or diabetes.​

Mental illnesses are health conditions involving changes in thinking, emotion or behavior (or a combination of these). Mental illnesses are associated with distress and/or problems functioning in social, work or family activities.

Mental illness is common. In a given year:

• 
  
  • nearly one in five (19 percent) U.S. adults experience some form of mental illness
  
  
  • one in 24 (4.1 percent) has a serious mental illness
  
  
  • one in 12 (8.5 percent) has a substance use disorder*

Mental illness is treatable. The vast majority of individuals with mental illness continue to function in their daily lives.

Now where you can have dialogue is how we address mental illness, because no one has that answer.

There are tons of people who have mental illnesses. It doesn't make them any less of a person. It's a tough subject and tough for someone to admit to the world "I have a mental illness". I get that and get why people have such a problem with that label.

Don't expect to stay here long with that attitude. And I'm not even talking about the false equivalency you present that trans people just don't want to admit they have a mental illness because of the social stigma attached to mental illness.

Stating that your opinion is fact and following it up with "no amount of dialogue will change that" tells us that you aren't really interested in discussing the matter and aren't open to listening to other's reasoned arguments. If in the future you find yourself in a similar situation and aren't interested in participating, simply don't post.

 

[Vicetrailia]

It's a mental illness and that is a fact. No amount of dialogue will change that. Below is some information from the American Psychiatric Foundation to refresh everyone's memory of what a mental illness is.

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/what-is-mental-illness

What Is Mental Illness?

Mental illness is nothing to be ashamed of. It is a medical problem, just like heart disease or diabetes.​

Mental illnesses are health conditions involving changes in thinking, emotion or behavior (or a combination of these). Mental illnesses are associated with distress and/or problems functioning in social, work or family activities.

Mental illness is common. In a given year:

• 
  
  • nearly one in five (19 percent) U.S. adults experience some form of mental illness
  
  
  • one in 24 (4.1 percent) has a serious mental illness
  
  
  • one in 12 (8.5 percent) has a substance use disorder*

Mental illness is treatable. The vast majority of individuals with mental illness continue to function in their daily lives.

Now where you can have dialogue is how we address mental illness, because no one has that answer.

There are tons of people who have mental illnesses. It doesn't make them any less of a person. It's a tough subject and tough for someone to admit to the world "I have a mental illness". I get that and get why people have such a problem with that label.

Bad move quoting the APA, because they amended the classification to gender dysphoria, to show that being transgender was not a disease.

With science you actually have to keep up with it, it's seldom stagnant. At one point in time they called it a mental illness, but the research has changed completely . The science has moved further along.

 

[Big4reel]

Well those same people had the same paranoid idea about gays, hip hop/rap, Rock ‘n’ roll, action movies and computer games...
It’s nothing new. Only thing new about it to an extent is the subject matter

Transgender paranoia is basically when people think transgenders might trick them into having sex with them. And since apparently expecting transgenders telling people about their birth sex before an relationship is 'transphobic' I have to say its understandable

 

[Airola]

Unless you start looking at statistics and facts...
Sex Change Regret - Reversal Surgery on the Rise

Long term study of patients who had sex reassignment surgery: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Conclusions
Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.


Which begs the question - if you need treatment, doesn't that imply a illness?

I personally know one transgender person (female to male) in "real life" and he seems to be fine. I'd be surprised if I heard he has had regrets or any serious trouble with himself after transitioning.

But I have met several when I filmed many interviews with them and at least a couple of them said sometimes there is regret. The other even said "all of us regret it at some point." Both of them had their ways to cope with it though. I guess the people who haven't found a way to cope with it could be seeking reversal to sex reassignment. Sex reassignment really isn't as clear solution as many might think.

It's a good solution to many but we need to be able to talk about this part of the issue too. At worst this could lead to a situation where people who want to transition back are mocked for their decision by people who originally were very accepting when they did the reassignment the first time. It could be similar to what some "ex-gays" encounter. People very often laugh at those who claim they were gay but aren't anymore. It's as if it's completely impossible to have that kind of a change in your life. I remember there being an interview of a Finnish man who said he used to be gay but is now different. The interview was spread on Facebook and it was quite stunning to see the people laughing at that interview and laughing at that person were all the "progressive" people.

Sometimes it really feels the "progressive" people only accept things that aim to change the status quo. If a thing about identity and sexuality is something that takes a direction towards the old, they don't want to accept it at all. While I haven't seen people really mocking these "ex-trans" people, people seem to not take the idea of that possibility seriously at all.

What I mean is that if this is a problem there's really only 2 ways to fix it. Either torture them to get them to change their brain and how they think or your giving them what they'd want which is a female body. One of the 2 much easier and more humane.

Torture is pretty heavy word to use here. Psychiatry is a legit thing and helps countless of people, and pretty often even deal with things that feel hard for the patient. It is very hard for many patients to go through traumas or addictions or whatever else. And it can be very humane. It is amazing people actually have a skill to treat people with severe problems by talking and unlocking things in their minds.

What religions are these that frown upon hygiene or jelly bean flavors?

Or are you simply being asinine toward religion?

I'm actually only interested in this thread to see how people respond to the issue of sin. Because the majority of the world is religious.

For example, one debates whether or not nothing is physiological or psychological, but what about the soul?

I don't think the dismissal of the role of sin is due to " drivel" as one user put it, but because it is incomprehensible.

I'm glad you brought this up because - assuming we have souls (which I believe we have) - I would be interested in discussing whether it's possible that souls could be one gender or another and that could it be so that transgender people have soul of the opposite gender than what their physical body is. But that definitely isn't a topic for this thread because it's so far away from scientific talk.

 

[Tumle]

Transgender paranoia is basically when people think transgenders might trick them into having sex with them. And since apparently expecting transgenders telling people about their birth sex before an relationship is 'transphobic' I have to say its understandable

What’s transphobic, is thinking that transgender people are some kind of predators, just trying to get all the dick they can muster..
And it’s just how homophobic people thought or still think, that they somehow will get tricked in to having gay sex and that all gay men just want to buttsex them..
There is a statistical higher chance that you are going to have sex with a random “normal” woman than you are ever to even get hit on by a transgender woman.. so stop being paranoid, and think of all the sex you could have if you weren’t so afraid that the woman you want to hit on might have a dick

 

[Big4reel]

What’s transphobic, is thinking that transgender people are some kind of predators, just trying to get all the dick they can muster..
And it’s just how homophobic people thought or still think, that they somehow will get tricked in to having gay sex and that all gay men just want to buttsex them..
There is a statistical higher chance that you are going to have sex with a random “normal” woman than you are ever to even get hit on by a transgender woman.. so stop being paranoid, and think of all the sex you could have if you weren’t so afraid that the woman you want to hit on might have a dick

Shouldn`t transgender people take into consideration that some people might not want to have sex with a transgender though

 

[Kotzen Ducha]

It's so hard to know for sure given our limited knowledge and experience.
We do know that sexual reassignment surgery doesn't improve outcomes so I don't think it should be paid for by insurance or the government.

I tend to think that the concept of gender has mucked up the entire conversation. To think that an entire sex can fit under a strict definition of personality seems insane to me.

If I act like a woman does it make me a woman? The only difference between my tender/outgoing male friends and my M->F Transgender friend is how they self identify. I don't think science cares about things like self identification so we need way more research on the topic.

 

[Tumle]

Shouldn`t transgender people take into consideration that some people might not want to have sex with a transgender though

Sure.. and I’m sure that most do.. unless you can point me to any news about the spreading epedemic of men falsely being lured to having sex with a trans woman..
It’s just like the bathroom controversy..
They are people not monsters.. the have empathy and can understand emotions just like you and me.. and I’m pretty sure they know that who they are are not seen as “normal”..

 

[Vicetrailia]

Shouldn`t transgender people take into consideration that some people might not want to have sex with a transgender though

You don't really have to tell anyone anything the instant you meet them, especially in an entertainment setting.

That said, Transgendered women who are interested in me tell me quickly. Or if it's more obvious you exchange looks to measure interests, and then keep it moving.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

What religions are these that frown upon hygiene or jelly bean flavors?

Or are you simply being asinine toward religion?

I'm actually only interested in this thread to see how people respond to the issue of sin. Because the majority of the world is religious.

For example, one debates whether or not nothing is physiological or psychological, but what about the soul?

I don't think the dismissal of the role of sin is due to " drivel" as one user put it, but because it is incomprehensible.

Although only God, the Father of Christ knows the full answer to why it’s a sin, if I had to go by what’s been left of the Bible I’d say one, God made man for woman and woman for man, so going outside of that is tampering with creation and accepting your own version of it, two, there is no “fruit” from a man/man, woman/woman relationship, 3, you’re not accepting what God gave you at birth. Say what you want but trans/homosexuality/lesbianism all go hand in hand. Saying you were “born as” either would be contradictory to creation and God who is truth. He’s not going to be against homosexuality in the Bible and then have people born as such. Doesn’t make any sense. I myself have given up on trying to rationalize why people do things. It’s their life for one and for two know one but God knows what pushes people toward the choices they make during their life. We only get bits and pieces while there’s some underlying unremembered thing that someone saw or went through that made them choose to go against what they were put here as. So while it’s sin, not one single person is on earth without sin. That’s why it’s possible to be ok with an LGBT person as a person. Their sin is no different than anyone else’s besides not being able to change your body back to what it was.

 

[TheMikado]

Although only God, the Father of Christ knows the full answer to why it’s a sin, if I had to go by what’s been left of the Bible I’d say one, God made man for woman and woman for man, so going outside of that is tampering with creation and accepting your own version of it, two, there is no “fruit” from a man/man, woman/woman relationship, 3, you’re not accepting what God gave you at birth. Say what you want but trans/homosexuality/lesbianism all go hand in hand. Saying you were “born as” either would be contradictory to creation and God who is truth. He’s not going to be against homosexuality in the Bible and then have people born as such. Doesn’t make any sense. I myself have given up on trying to rationalize why people do things. It’s their life for one and for two know one but God knows what pushes people toward the choices they make during their life. We only get bits and pieces while there’s some underlying unremembered thing that someone saw or went through that made them choose to go against what they were put here as. So while it’s sin, not one single person is on earth without sin. That’s why it’s possible to be ok with an LGBT person as a person. Their sin is no different than anyone else’s besides not being able to change your body back to what it was.

We see people are predisposed to things like alcoholism which is also depised by God biblical speaking. Yet God made drunks, liars, cheaters, killers, etc. The idea that a person cannot be born imperfect is against the very foundations of Christianity so It begs the question how much you truly know about your faith?

 

[-Minsc-]

The short.

2 in 3 Americans believe that those who reject transgender are mentally ill or sinning.

In order for me to feel I can emphasize I have no choice but to see us all as defective mutants who are trying to hold on to being the long extinct species of humanity.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

I'm glad you brought this up because - assuming we have souls (which I believe we have) - I would be interested in discussing whether it's possible that souls could be one gender or another and that could it be so that transgender people have soul of the opposite gender than what their physical body is. But that definitely isn't a topic for this thread because it's so far away from scientific talk.

I don't think it's too far away from this thread; there's the mental health question and the sin question--in tandem. But some might argue that it is not a scientific conversation. I do not think that science and the humanities have to be mutually exclusive.

We're not just talking religion here, but also philosophy.

I am not even sure if I have considered the question long enough to wonder if a soul, spirit, essence, is gendered at all. I feel like gender is a uniquely human problem, because along with it comes expectations for behavior, of (ideal) secondary sex characteristics.

This may come back to the question of identity politics. How one views themselves may not necessarily be what they actually are. If you agree with this premise, then you may begin to understand how another might oppose the voluntary metamorphosis as a sort of violation.

I don't think we'll arrive to an answer as the stakes are high....

We see people are predisposed to things like alcoholism which is also depised by God biblical speaking. Yet God made drunks, liars, cheaters, killers, etc. The idea that a person cannot be born imperfect is against the very foundations of Christianity so It begs the question how much you truly know about your faith?

The people you mention are not destined to be what you claim them to be. They choose to act out. Being born in imperfection does not mean one dwells in imperfection, but one strives for holiness.

The way you pose this argument is defeatist: "Welp, they say I'm a sinner, so why bother!"

 

[KevinKeene]

Btw on a sidenote: I find it absolutely disingenuous to mix up 'think it's a mental illness' and 'think it's a sin'

The former stance has merit and is debatable. The later is just pure, unfiltered lunacy and anybody who believes in 'sins' isn't worth debating with.

Feels like a cheap attempt to paint the mental illness-group as idiots.

 

[TheMikado]

I don't think it's too far away from this thread; there's the mental health question and the sin question--in tandem. But some might argue that it is not a scientific conversation. I do not think that science and the humanities have to be mutually exclusive.

We're not just talking religion here, but also philosophy.

I am not even sure if I have considered the question long enough to wonder if a soul, spirit, essence, is gendered at all. I feel like gender is a uniquely human problem, because along with it comes expectations for behavior, of (ideal) secondary sex characteristics.

This may come back to the question of identity politics. How one views themselves may not necessarily be what they actually are. If you agree with this premise, then you may begin to understand how another might oppose the voluntary metamorphosis as a sort of violation.

I don't think we'll arrive to an answer as the stakes are high....



The people you mention are not destined to be what you claim them to be. They choose to act out. Being born in imperfection does not mean one dwells in imperfection, but one strives for holiness.

The way you pose this argument is defeatist: "Welp, they say I'm a sinner, so why bother!"

I agree with this, my counter is to the person claiming that God would not create gay or transgender people. It’s not a sin to be born that way even in the Bible and that person are attempting to make the claim that it was 100% their choice.

 

[Corrik]

Sure.. and I’m sure that most do.. unless you can point me to any news about the spreading epedemic of men falsely being lured to having sex with a trans woman..
It’s just like the bathroom controversy..
They are people not monsters.. the have empathy and can understand emotions just like you and me.. and I’m pretty sure they know that who they are are not seen as “normal”..

Wasn't there a recent story about a man who was seduced by a transgender and upon realizing it he murdered her?

 

[Airola]

Btw on a sidenote: I find it absolutely disingenuous to mix up 'think it's a mental illness' and 'think it's a sin'

The former stance has merit and is debatable. The later is just pure, unfiltered lunacy and anybody who believes in 'sins' isn't worth debating with.

Feels like a cheap attempt to paint the mental illness-group as idiots.

Believing in the existence of sin is very logical if one believes there is a creator god. Understanding the concept of sin also shows that the person is able to have a grasp on deep and abstract thoughts. It shows certain kind of intelligence that people who don't believe in the existence sin might lack.

If you want to say belief in a creator god in general is lunacy, that's another subject. But sin is a complex and layered concept where a person who is thinking about existential thoughts tries to make sense of how our actions could have more meaning than just being essentially cold calculations made by biological "computers", and how that meaning could transcend from our concrete human existence to the deepest core of existence in general. Even if there isn't any god beyond our concrete existence, the fact that we are capable of going that deep in our thoughts is kinda amazing.

 

[Chairman Tickles]

3/3 doctors believe that gender dysphoria is a mental illness, however gender reassignment surgery leading to a transgender transformation is supposed to address that, it is seen as a legitimate and effective solution to a serious problem. Transgenderism is not the mental illness, it is the cure to one.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

We see people are predisposed to things like alcoholism which is also depised by God biblical speaking. Yet God made drunks, liars, cheaters, killers, etc. The idea that a person cannot be born imperfect is against the very foundations of Christianity so It begs the question how much you truly know about your faith?

We are born close to God and corrupted by the world. That’s where the whole don’t love the world and be in the world and not of it thing comes from. He doesn’t make any drunks, liars or cheaters. We become those things ourselves by living in worldliness.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Btw on a sidenote: I find it absolutely disingenuous to mix up 'think it's a mental illness' and 'think it's a sin'

The former stance has merit and is debatable. The later is just pure, unfiltered lunacy and anybody who believes in 'sins' isn't worth debating with.

Feels like a cheap attempt to paint the mental illness-group as idiots.

Think of what a “sin” is. I go through this in my mind a lot. Would you want to be lied to? Does anyone? Would you want someone screwing your wife? Would you want something stolen from you? Would you go around killing for no reason? Would you appreciate it if someone always came to you jealous or envious of the things you had? It’s not like He left a list of really shitty things to follow and if you agree with them then either a: you’ll accept Him or you won’t. Chances are if you don’t you’ll end up tangled in some part of the shit end of the stick as far as the bad things go. We get forgiveness through Christ but we aren’t free from sinning as sin leads to needless suffering for one and for two hurting others wether intentionally or not. Part of that is selfishness.

 

[AgentP]

I guess you have to define mental illness. I see mental illness as a medical condition, not an insult.

Google tells me:

Mental illnesses are health conditions involving changes in thinking, emotion or behavior (or a combination of these). Mental illnesses are associated with distress and/or problems functioning in social, work or family activities.

Then maybe? Sounds too psychiatric though. They don't choose it, they don't control it. It is likely genetic or developmental.

 

[Vicetrailia]

I guess you have to define mental illness. I see mental illness as a medical condition, not an insult.

Google tells me:



Then maybe? Sounds too psychiatric though. They don't choose it, they don't control it. It is likely genetic or developmental.

So the APA says that dysphoria is not an mental illness. Gender dysphoria plus societal pressures produces mental distress which can lead to mental illness. The brain is right, but the body is wrong, thus the persistent desire for change.

 

[gioGAF]

Bad move quoting the APA, because they amended the classification to gender dysphoria, to show that being transgender was not a disease.

With science you actually have to keep up with it, it's seldom stagnant. At one point in time they called it a mental illness, but the research has changed completely . The science has moved further along.

But is this an issue of the use of politics above science? My understanding is that the reclassification of gender dysphoria was not done based on any statistical evidence, it was a political decision. It was classified as a mental disorder, now the oppression associated with it is considered the mental disorder (this reclassification could basically be applied to any mental disorder, schizophrenia is not a mental disorder, only the depression and suicidality associated with it are).

I could be totally off base, but if I'm not, then that means that we as a society are making decisions based on political reasoning, rather than scientific reasoning. I find that to be a disturbing trend.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/
"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."

Results from studies such as the one from the link above suggest that psychiatric issues are quite pronounced with those who experience this. Reassignment doesn't fix everything, and I don't think all of the issues can be blamed on how the world reacts to you.

I don't research this concept very often (I think people should be free to express themselves), however I worry about possible repercussions that may come from not properly handling this situation because our society seems to be throwing science out the window.

 

[SoulUnison]

I believe it to be a mental illness.

I say this without ill intent. Without malice. I believe these people have a serious mental disorder but instead of being properly treated they are sold this illusion that they can switch genders.
No amount of hormones and surgeries will make a man become a woman and vice versa. The majority of people undergoing gender transition will never look like the opposite sex. And some of the changes are irreversible.
Honestly i think gender transitioning is like giving a loaded gun to someone with depression and saying "Do it. it'll solve your problem".

Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness imo.

This more or less sums up my thoughts on the matter, however, transitioning is the right personal choice for some individuals.
Also, I don't fully agree with the sentiment of "No amount of hormones and surgeries will make a man become a woman and vice versa," but likewise there are some physical qualities that are gendered and decided at birth that simply can't be changed or adequately simulated. I think people considering transitioning need counseling and education on the process and to be able to be content with the idea that, while they may feel more able to express themselves as their perceived gender, they'll never truly be able to change their "birth" gender, as in literally the gender they were "at birth."

I do worry what happens when someone goes through a process of irreversible change to their body and then possibly finds that it doesn't actually bring them any happiness or fulfillment.

 

[Gray Rentable]

Change your sex if you want. All freedoms are yours.

Unless you're the Thought Police, who gives a shit what people believe or don't believe.

Just respect everybody and don't hurt others.

 

[gioGAF]

Change your sex if you want. All freedoms are yours.

Unless you're the Thought Police, who gives a shit what people believe or don't believe.

Just respect everybody and don't hurt others.

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Vicetrailia]

But is this an issue of the use of politics above science? My understanding is that the reclassification of gender dysphoria was not done based on any statistical evidence, it was a political decision. It was classified as a mental disorder, now the oppression associated with it is considered the mental disorder (this reclassification could basically be applied to any mental disorder, schizophrenia is not a mental disorder, only the depression and suicidality associated with it are).

I could be totally off base, but if I'm not, then that means that we as a society are making decisions based on political reasoning, rather than scientific reasoning. I find that to be a disturbing trend.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/
"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."

Results from studies such as the one from the link above suggest that psychiatric issues are quite pronounced with those who experience this. Reassignment doesn't fix everything, and I don't think all of the issues can be blamed on how the world reacts to you.

I don't research this concept very often (I think people should be free to express themselves), however I worry about possible repercussions that may come from not properly handling this situation because our society seems to be throwing science out the window.

I'd like to see the results on very young individuals. They say starting young with support has a significant impact, rather than starting at 16 or older.

I like this analysis, which shows that we need to do more trials on adults. http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/trgh.2015.0008

I'm not sure if it is all political:

A condition is designated as a mental illness when the very fact that you have it causes distress and dysfunction

Scientists are saying that this isn't the case with Transgender identity, that distress is caused by operating in society. It's persistent. Transgender people experience high rates of harassment and violence, including sexual violence, not only from strangers but also from their own families and communities. There are billions of studies on the effects of discrimination, social stigma, trauma, and all of these other things. A more political reason is that giving it a medical category increases health coverage worldwide.

 

[Ailynn]

This may be my first and only last post on this forum, as honestly some of the comments under this topic have been pretty upsetting. I've learned over the past few years that trying to convince people of the validity of my existence is more exhausting than it is worth. Many people have already made their minds up on the subject of transgender/transsexual people based on their own personal bias or whatever study coincides with their own view, despite many other studies showing the contrary. There is no one reason that people become transgender or transsexual, and what is the story for a few many be very different from the many. Everyone is welcome and entitled to their own opinion, and I don't want to waste your time trying to change your mind.

All I can offer is my own story:

Spoiler

I grew up in a Christian home and am a person of strong Christian faith myself. I never suffered sexual abuse, and never got into drugs or anything else deemed unhealthy. My family was happy and I was a mostly well adjusted kid. Still, I knew I was different from about the age of 4, feeling much more in common with girls than boys. I never wanted to do anything I felt would be disapproved of or bring stress to my parents, so I kept my feelings to myself as much as possible. I was a very quiet kid in school, and usually stayed in my own world...focusing mostly on drawing and eventually videogames for escape. I was a very kind and considerate child, and had empathy even for those that picked on me...so I never really ever got mad at anyone no matter what they did. Still, the bullying and derogatory remarks began seriously instilling the feeling that there was something deeply wrong with me, so I did my best to hide and fit in...although my efforts were not very effective. The occasional transphobic church sermon as well as extremely negative representation in the media certainly didn't help matters.

I started disliking my body at a very young age, and the feeling was compounded by the fact that my body had a couple of genital abnormalities and malformations which I had to have surgery on when I was 11. Slowly after the surgery, testosterone began changing my body through puberty (although I would remain mostly asexual for the remainder of my life). The more my body changed, the more I hated my reflection and felt bad about myself. Finally around age 14, I learned I wasn't alone when I saw Caroline Cossey on The Phil Donahue Show (this was back before the Internet was so widely used.) I knew I was transsexual, but I was still far too scared to let anyone know.

Fast forward 20-something years of trying my absolute hardest to live as a 'regular guy' out of fear of rejection from all I held dear, as well as a fear that God disapproved...even though it was never anything I ever chose to feel, and often fought hard against and tried to pray away. Living through all that time trying to fit into the role opposite my own gender identity caused me eventual intense self-hatred, depression, and suicidal feelings. For a couple of years, I actually felt it was better for me to die and take my secret to the grave rather than risk losing everyone I loved. Eventually I decided it would hurt everyone worse if I killed myself, so I decided to give my life one more chance by doing what I had wanted to 20 years earlier...I decided to come out as transgender and begin transition.

Now, I am a transsexual 2 years into full gender transition and have never felt happier. I am finally comfortable with myself and have a growing confidence like I had never known, and all my depression and anxiety have disappeared. I am incredibly grateful I did not end my life, and I see each new day living as my genuine self as a blessing . My faith in God has never been stronger, and I am thankful for the empathy and compassion the life I have been given has helped me have for other people of all walks of life.

There is still a lot of work to do, but it makes me happy to see that understanding has grown and there are less people who believe it is sinful or a mental disorder now. I hope I can use my life experience to help bridge the gap of understanding between the Christian and transgender communities. I believe each and every one of us are all born as innocent children...each precious and deserving of a chance at living a meaningful life, no matter how different we may be.

- - -

I know many transgender and transsexual people, both in everyday life and online. Out of several hundreds of people, I only know of one person in the group who had regret after their transition. They had a similar story to that of the false-transsexual Walt Heyer, who is well known and the biggest contributor to the "Sex-Change Regret" argument. OF COURSE Mr Heyer would have regret after having a sex change when he was admittedly never transgender to begin with, but psychologically damaged by his sexually abusive uncle as a child, causing him to become an alcoholic suffering from dissociative disorder. He admittedly lied to the therapists he saw in order to get to his goals, which he later understandably regretted. His story is a sad one for sure, but it is very irritating that he believes his own experience of being 'transgender' is shared by all other transgender people, which is absolutely NOT the case. - http://www.transchristians.org/people/walt-heyer

The vast majority of trans people I know are much happier people after transitioning, and the main struggles they continue to have are acceptance in society, as well as maintaining employment and proper healthcare. When we find acceptance and kindness from those we love, as well as at least polite behavior from strangers, we can flourish in society just like anyone else.

 

[Darryl]

Sort of. I had dysmorphia all throughout my youth. I would have gotten on surgery and hormones if they were in front of me. I am pretty sure it had to do with not fitting in with the boys at the time. I believe that if you don't see yourself fitting in with the boys, the obvious answer is that you're a girl. Eventually I did fit in and the dysmorphia went away. Now I'm very clearly a boy and more boyish than most, and happy.

So my personal experience does tell me that it was a mental illness. At least in my case. I was a failed mate compensating by dreaming it was the opposite gender, who eventually grew up and was accepted for what it was.

 

[Durask]

I actually want to take a step backwards and ask a question.
When we have sex why do we need "gender"?

With sex we have male or female.
Some frogs change sex from female to male.
Some fish change from male to female
Some fish are true hermaphrodites.

Why do we need to pile "gender" on top of "sex"? Is this a Western thing?