luca_29_bg
Member
Optimizations, and code specifically for a closed box do wonders!
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Rumour: PS5 Devkits have released (UPDATE 25th April : 7nm chips moving to mass production)
- Thread starter bitbydeath
- Start date
Optimizations, and code specifically for a closed box do wonders!
luca_29_bg
Member
Again, it's a ps4 game in developing with decima engine, the same engine used in horizon....
luca_29_bg
Member
You can forget that. No mandatory 60 fps will be on a console...
luca_29_bg
Member
That is another story, but tlo2 is a ps4 game. We'll see more at e3 of course.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Plus the internals in the PS4 aren't "crap". Not sure why people like to say that.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Personally I really don't care. As a hardcore gamer I'll always be ready for be ready for new hardware. But I don't want them to rush it either.
Rushed Hardware is never good.
The longer they wait and Target hardware that's further developed the better the experience will be for the end user.
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luca_29_bg
Member
Black bars in the order was used for artistic reason, the game was conceived in that way since the beginning, even the concept artworks created for the game had black bars. Ready to dawn has explained this multiple times.
ThatStupidLion
Member
Oh jesus i dont think i can handle ps5 in 2018/early 2019.
Really hoping the specs are significant and not a half step from pro.
Really hoping the specs are significant and not a half step from pro.
MilkyJoe
Member
Take away the black bars though....
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Leocarian
Banned
Yes and? That does not mean that it still can't be cross gen lol.
luca_29_bg
Member
of course, but for now is a ps4 game beucause ps5 still doesn't exist ^^
Yes please explain it to me. Releasing new iPhones, computer hardware, cars, houses, and basically every single other thing you buy works this way, so explain to me why you think game consoles should be the singular special snowflake in this equation?
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I'll say because it's never been done before. We've never seen it work. It's super risky to do that. That's why.
MilkyJoe
Member
No one buys a new car every year, no one buys a new house every year, the only thing people do is a phone and then, only those strange Apple folk do that. If you think the console market is up for a new 400 quid toy every two years then you are living in la la land. And that goes double for the developers.
Tao Pai Pai
Neo Member
6 years are pretty standart for Sony gens so I totally expect PS5 in 2019. Also 2019 is a great time to get in on the 7 nm train. High end specs + full backwards compatibility means instant buy for me.
LordOfChaos
Member
I can't buy the PS4s APU anywhere outside it, can I? It's semi-custom.
I didn't say anything about older or newer architectures, but the production runs of other Ryzen and Navi parts has nothing to do with a production run of this custom APU. Yes porting an old architecture to a new fab would be an effort, but I'm saying there may be customizations (i.e DX12 hardware calls on Microsofts side, not a regular Jaguar feature).
I was responding to your comment on "That doesn't even make sense from a manufacturing perspective.". It's not like they would yield economies of scale from being standard Ryzen, since it's a custom APU anyways.
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Sony did not expect the masses to jump on PS4 Pro and MS did not have that expectation for Xbox One X either. Those consoles were meant to focus on how to achieve both exact compatibility and improvements of existing software with minimal changes required by developers requiring the minimal amount of changes by the device makers as well (MS pushed harder as they even changed the memory setup... bye bye ESRAM, welcome fat and high clocked GDDR5 bus).
A new generation does not have the same restrictions even if BC is in (think how Xbox 360 did BC or a bit better than that vs how the mid generation updates where fitting in the equation).
I was not sold on the mid generation updates, I expected small upgrades to games and not a lot of time spent by developer on patches for them,... which is what we got. The more frequently you release HW the less it will be taken advantage of properly... it becomes more satisfying and feeding the consumeristic urge of having a new toy (and forcing the ASP of your HW to stay higher).
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
I buy a new truck every year and a new Jeep Wrangler every other year. I retired at a very young age 18 years ago and there are a ton more people out there then you think that has plenty of disposable income that would throw money at a new console every couple of years.
Could that be a sustainable market? Of course not.
But to make a statement no one buys X every year is a very dumb thing to say.
DemonCleaner
Member
what excactly is the news here? that's just logical guesswork... why would anybody expect anything else in an amd-based console than zen2 (=rzyen 3xxx) and navi when it's released in late 2019/early2020?
Silent Viper
Banned
Gears was designed keeping base model in mind but still power of X pushes the fidelity way higher than any PS exclusives could achieve in resolution. On 4k screen Gears looks sharper than any PS exclusives and if it's in HDR then damn you are in for treat.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
A big part of the news is that the people reporting this have gotten things right early in the past about the PS4 generation. So anything they say about the PS5 next-gen will be closely read from now on.
MilkyJoe
Member
The majority of Pro owners would hit the roof if a Ps5 came out this year. It matters not if it's BC it wouldn't be FC and that's where the masses would feel the burn if they couldn't play the ps5 games on their pro. And if they could does that mean devs will be making games for PS4, Pro and Ps5. Or are they going to ditch the PS4? I thought the general consensus on incremental model was its baaaad...
MilkyJoe
Member
The majority, Mr Money bags. You are the absolute tiny minimal demographic like top 1.5%
And your demographic does not make a dent in the majority of Sony's income.
So you are right that's not a sustainable model.
And that's the reality. It's not happening.
Ps I've got more money than I know what to do with too. But it's rather vulgar to mention it, just an FYI.
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I do not think the scenario of PS5 games playing on the PS4 Pro is anything Sony suggested, anything really positive in an of itself (iterative consoles are not my cup of tea and neither what the consoles market needs nor the best scenario for gamers IMHO), or even a remote expectation the majority of PS4 Pro users would reasonably have.
Sony very very clearly said that they did not want to move to a generationless yearly/rapid iterative model, that there would be a proper PS5 that represented a considerably larger leap over base PS4, and that they believed in console generations and what they implied ([for almost all PlayStation consoles] BC is usually an area they do invest in by the way). Without being disingenuous, who could expect PS5 titles to play on PS4 or PS4 Pro (I hope PS5 titles are able to focus on PS5 specs)?
Anyways, announcement in Q1 CY 2018 with release in Q4 CY 2019 (holiday season) just like PS4 launches makes sense and does not feel like pulling the legs of PS4 owners.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Just saying when people make blanket statements about what everybody does and makes up numbers to support an argument that they clearly have no clue what they are saying is pretty weak minded.
Lort
Banned
People upgrade when the price is affordable and the value worth while. The reason so few people have upgraded to the mid gen refresh is because the cost to value isnt yet high enough. The next gen of an early ps5 will have the exact same problem.. why would you buy a ps5 when a cheap ps4 plays the same games at 1080p or a ps4 pro at 1440p. The specs we are looking up are enough to play current games at 4k with mild graphical and performace updates. This is not a compelling argument to upgrade ... the end of last gen was a much better step up and there was no mid level option. Generations are dead we now live in an iphone style eara of continual upgrades.
Leocarian
Banned
Wait it's rather vulgar to mention it? But you just mentioned that you are also Mr Money Bags? Lol.
MilkyJoe
Member
To bring him down a peg.
MilkyJoe
Member
The absolute minority are not worth considering in this conversation. Use your weak mind.
Leocarian
Banned
Pretty much. It's funny how some people try to prove something by contradicting themselves over an internet forum.
Anyways, back on topic. What are you looking forward more Sony or MS press conference?
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MilkyJoe
Member
That's not the topic...
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Sony LITERALLY said the exact opposite about the PS5, so why do you keep pushing this false narrative?
nowhat
Member
Yeah, what Sony (well, mostly Cerny, but the message has been repeated elsewhere - and I should think he has some clue regarding future Playstation hardware) has said so far is that console generations are alive and well. A new generation means a radical departure from the previous one, which a Pro is not (the GPU is faster, the memory ever slightly so and there's a tiny bit more to work with, also the CPU is clocked a bit higher - but in essence it is a PS4+). Come PS5 I'd at the very least expect a new CPU architecture (Ryzen-based, nothing else makes sense), significantly more/faster RAM, a much better GPU too as well. I think the major factor will be the CPU, it is something that's severely lacking this gen.
But if Sony has any sense (and this is debatable, there are so many counterexamples), they'll wait for 7nm to be viable in mass-market quantities. So according to current AMD roadmap that means an announcement at E3 2019 and release late 2019 at the very earliest. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 2020 release either. This year, hell no.
Lort
Banned
Lol because Sony knows some people believe every marketing spin they say. Do you feel protected by no x platform play with xbox but safe deaing with cheaters and the wild west of pc players, do u feel EA access being held off playstaion was “for the players”? Other people are free to make their own minds up. If its less of an upgrade than the last mid gen refresh was, most games will be out for previous consoles and it has backwards compatibility its not a new generation in the traditional sense.
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MilkyJoe
Member
The conversion started at talk of a 2018 release.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I really do think this Digital Foundry article about PS4 Pro contains quite a bit of next-gen info and other nuggets in it e.g:
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...tation-4-pro-how-sony-made-a-4k-games-machine
Given that Sony flew out and accommodated Richard at their expense I assume he gave Sony/Mark Cerny the courtesy of reading this piece before publication and would have corrected the above if it was wrong?
nowhat
Member
Not allowing cross-platform play with Xbox is just politics, pure and simple. In the case of something like Minecraft it's partially understandable (requiring a Live account), but mostly it's just the market leader being cocky. Not unlike Microsoft with 360 in the previous gen. EA access - on a personal level, I really don't care for it (I'd only be interested in the BioWare stuff, and as of late, not so much about those either), but sure, I can see it appealing to some.
But both of those issues are about software. Regarding hardware, we've not yet seen any indication that Sony would be moving to an iterative model. Pro is in no way a move in that direction; I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's a PS4+ (and nothing wrong with that, it's just not a "giant step for PS-kind"). Like Cerny or not (he's not the greatest speaker/marketeer out there by a large margin), but he obviously knows current and upcoming PS hardware, and I'm willing to give him/Sony the benefit of the doubt for the time being.
Also the above quote/article as cited by
THE:MILKMAN
.
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Leocarian
Banned
Not allowing cross-platform play with Xbox is just politics, pure and simple. In the case of something like Minecraft it's partially understandable (requiring a Live account), but mostly it's just the market leader being cocky. Not unlike Microsoft with 360 in the previous gen. EA access - on a personal level, I really don't care for it (I'd only be interested in the BioWare stuff, and as of late, not so much about those either), but sure, I can see it appealing to some.
But both of those issues are about software. Regarding hardware, we've not yet seen any indication that Sony would be moving to an iterative model. Pro is in no way a move in that direction; I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's a PS4+ (and nothing wrong with that, it's just not a "giant step for PS-kind"). Like Cerny or not (he's not the greatest speaker/marketeer out there by a large margin), but he obviously knows current and upcoming PS hardware, and I'm willing to give him/Sony the benefit of the doubt for the time being.
Also the above quote/article as cited by
What would you like to see from PS5 personally?
Yikes, ok the misunderstanding of the video game console history is staggering.
Traditionally the console hardware cycle has been approximately a 3 year cycle until new more powerful and incompatible hardware releases. You can look at the below to get an idea at the frequency.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_home_video_game_consoles
The fact is going 5-8 years between new hardware iterations is new and risky and traditionally not done. What we have been experiencing for the last 15-20 years is NOT the norm of console development in its history and I’d argue that we are finally beginning to normalize.
Consoles are more computer like than ever and on the flip side computers are more console like than ever. The lines will continue to blur until we essentially have game “services and platforms” running on hardware “boxes”. From a technological standpoint we’ve achieved photorealistic graphics real time, albeit on $60,000 rigs but due to the evolutionary process in the next 10-20 years you will have photo realistic graphics as standard in which case the “power” of a console becomes irrelevant just as the “power” of your cellphone or your cable box. Your system will become a content delivery system and the idea of “power” will be gone.
Of courses you can always use more power but there are diminishing returns where you have to ask what’s the point of rendering an entire photorealistic city in real-time does for your user.
The point is wishing for artificially lengthened generations is delaying the inevitable and giving us WORSE products in the meantime. I don’t understand why you would want a 6 year cycle rather than a three year. If you don’t like spending the money skip the intermediate generation just like the iPhone. We have generational leaps 5,6,7 etc and then we have the intermediate 5s,6s,7s etc. Which accommodates both the late users and early adopters.
I fail to see where having twice the amount of product to sell in half the time period is “stupid”.
Traditionally the console hardware cycle has been approximately a 3 year cycle until new more powerful and incompatible hardware releases. You can look at the below to get an idea at the frequency.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_home_video_game_consoles
The fact is going 5-8 years between new hardware iterations is new and risky and traditionally not done. What we have been experiencing for the last 15-20 years is NOT the norm of console development in its history and I’d argue that we are finally beginning to normalize.
Consoles are more computer like than ever and on the flip side computers are more console like than ever. The lines will continue to blur until we essentially have game “services and platforms” running on hardware “boxes”. From a technological standpoint we’ve achieved photorealistic graphics real time, albeit on $60,000 rigs but due to the evolutionary process in the next 10-20 years you will have photo realistic graphics as standard in which case the “power” of a console becomes irrelevant just as the “power” of your cellphone or your cable box. Your system will become a content delivery system and the idea of “power” will be gone.
Of courses you can always use more power but there are diminishing returns where you have to ask what’s the point of rendering an entire photorealistic city in real-time does for your user.
The point is wishing for artificially lengthened generations is delaying the inevitable and giving us WORSE products in the meantime. I don’t understand why you would want a 6 year cycle rather than a three year. If you don’t like spending the money skip the intermediate generation just like the iPhone. We have generational leaps 5,6,7 etc and then we have the intermediate 5s,6s,7s etc. Which accommodates both the late users and early adopters.
I fail to see where having twice the amount of product to sell in half the time period is “stupid”.
rokkerkory
Member
Im excited like anyone else but let’s keep our hopes and dreams in checked a bit. If 2018 then lulz but 2019 will give a good bump from X.
nowhat
Member
Well, since you asked for it, here goes (and all this assumes Sony continues with AMD APUs - by all accounts they should, but who knows):
- What I don't want to see is for it to try to compete with high-end PCs. That's a lost cause. Consoles essentially should be both accessible and affordable. 400€ at launch is tolerable. 500€ is pushing it. 600€ - thanks, but no thanks. Some concessions likely have to be made compared to PCs to keep the price down, but I think that's both understandable and desirable, given this is a console we're talking about.
- CPU is the major failing of current gen consoles. Pretty much anything else than a Jaguar will be an improvement (and it's very doubtful we'll see Jaguars in the next gen), but I think it's obvious there will be a marked improvement in that department. I'm not looking for single-core performance to rival an i7, but decent multi-core performance. Which Ryzen should bring.
- Another bottleneck is mass storage. While an SSD by default would be great (and do give us an option to upgrade to it if we want), that would hike the price too high. Something like 64GB or 128GB of built-in fast flash to host the OS and act as a cache to the HDD (in effect working like a hybrid drive in default configuration) would be great.
- I think it's obvious more RAM is needed as well. 16GB at the very least, but 24GB or 32GB even, all the better. Given the target price, perhaps 24 would be the reasonable option.
- A better GPU, obviously. But I don't want to go into the TFlops pissing contests - 10+ TFlops is fine, but again, it doesn't need to rival high-end PCs. With regards to graphical fidelity, we're almost there at 4K(-ish) resolutions (8K TVs may come at some point during the next gen, but I'm willing to bet it'll take longer to catch on than 4K) with the current mid-gen refreshes, it's more about the CPU right now. Also, I don't mind checkerboarding/temporal injection/whatnot trickery. It doesn't necessarily need to be native 4K. Just that it runs well and looks good - 60fps is preferable to native 4K, if that's the concession that needs to be made (and one that often cannot be made at the moment, a due to the abysmal CPU).
- I've been playing around with a PSVR that I borrowed from a friend, and while I probably won't get this 1.0 version, I can see the potential. A 2.0 version could be seriously awesome. But the functions of the breakout box (basically, handling positional audio and "unwarping" the image to be shown on the TV) should be built-in. This means that people not interested in VR will pay for the hardware too - but I don't think when the PS5 is released it will increase the price that much. And would be great for those who get PSVR v2.
- And sure, backwards compatibility would be great, at least initially. But I think the value diminishes as the platform matures. I changed from a 360 to a PS4 this gen, and sure, at first there weren't exactly too many games. Had there been BC right from the start on One I might have very much considered it instead. I've still occasionally toyed around with the idea of getting a One S, just because of my 360 backlog/games I could revisit. But my current gen backlog keeps growing constantly too... in the end, I'm not sure it is enough for me to get another console now. Beginning of this generation I probably would have felt otherwise. (and I do understand Sony not supporting PS3 games - Cell was/is such an odd beast, that in order to do BC a PS4 basically should have PS3 hardware as well, which would have driven up the cost considerably)
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It’s not and those are my same estimates and specs.
Specifically I’m looking for the SSHD.
I can’t see them doing 16GB, but see an odd number like 20GB or 24 like you said. I also see it being GDDR6 easily.
The CPUs were awful this gen and why I was very late to adopt because I wasn’t excited at all. No amount of cores are a substitute for raw clock speed especially if your code can’t be threaded.
None of the specs will be revolutionary and they will just continue inching is closer to the point of diminishing returns.
My prediction is that the revolutionary features this coming gen will be cloud and remote services. I also predict a wireless PSVR 2.0 which will be significantly cheaper and have the sensors built into the head unit.
My prediction is that the next gen boxes will be far more of “portals” to different services that happen to natively play games. I also thing you will see cloud compute become prominently used for both consoles.
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LuvOfThaGame
Banned
The way this is sounding is that the PS4 library will not be moving forward with the PS5. I believe that would be a huge mistake and giving MS quite the upper hand moving to the next Xbox. With game libraries being available digitally, gamers will want to keep those games moving forward.
The time between major improvements in performance is getting larger and larger and you are asking for new products to be released more often...
(... as well as removing the incentive / ability for developers to have ever a fixed spec to target [that allows them to optimise for the hardware more]).
I personally dont care about bc, i buy new hardware, for new games. Not old games, that maybe/most likely dont even look or run any better.
As someone who upgraded to PS4 Pro on release date, i would love to upgrade my pro again to have better looking / new gaming expierences that are only possible thanks to the new hardware. I can see that some people dont have the money to upgrade every 2 years and thosw would be the ones that are "angry" if the ps5 releases this year. But honestly, it's their own fault. 3 Years into a console cycle u dont dump 400€ into better graphics if u are on a "low" budget. But even if they release a PS5 tomorrow, i would buy one, just to have one, but when are the real exclusives pushing the console? 2 years or more into the cycle? U would have plenty of time to have the Console by then ...
I personally think 2019 is a good year for PS5, maybe early 2020 depends on how AMD is progessing on 7nm. Sadly SSDs are too expensive to really consider them, so a 2tb drive will probably suffice. Then RAM, 16gb would be plenty, and its expensive enough for a console that aims for 399 - 499€/$. APU will not be a problem, Zen right now is good enough, 7nm ZEN will be pretty strong for a real next level boost. 6TF on the GPU with a better CPU would actually be quite a lot "better" then what we have today in consoles. But i think even this year, a custom chip could do ~10tf within budget. So i dont worry at all about specs, PS4 Pro with 4,2tf has the best looking games by quite a lot. Horizon and Uncharted 4 make everything my GTX 1080 produces look pale. Even if it is just 30 fps which is, depending on the genre, okay if played with a controller. On PC with mouse/keyboard i want my 100fps+
As someone who upgraded to PS4 Pro on release date, i would love to upgrade my pro again to have better looking / new gaming expierences that are only possible thanks to the new hardware. I can see that some people dont have the money to upgrade every 2 years and thosw would be the ones that are "angry" if the ps5 releases this year. But honestly, it's their own fault. 3 Years into a console cycle u dont dump 400€ into better graphics if u are on a "low" budget. But even if they release a PS5 tomorrow, i would buy one, just to have one, but when are the real exclusives pushing the console? 2 years or more into the cycle? U would have plenty of time to have the Console by then ...
I personally think 2019 is a good year for PS5, maybe early 2020 depends on how AMD is progessing on 7nm. Sadly SSDs are too expensive to really consider them, so a 2tb drive will probably suffice. Then RAM, 16gb would be plenty, and its expensive enough for a console that aims for 399 - 499€/$. APU will not be a problem, Zen right now is good enough, 7nm ZEN will be pretty strong for a real next level boost. 6TF on the GPU with a better CPU would actually be quite a lot "better" then what we have today in consoles. But i think even this year, a custom chip could do ~10tf within budget. So i dont worry at all about specs, PS4 Pro with 4,2tf has the best looking games by quite a lot. Horizon and Uncharted 4 make everything my GTX 1080 produces look pale. Even if it is just 30 fps which is, depending on the genre, okay if played with a controller. On PC with mouse/keyboard i want my 100fps+
Leocarian
Banned
That's a pretty realistic expectation if you ask me personally and I am for sure 100% with you on the CPU. The CPU was already out of date when PS4 Launched in 2013 imo, honestly the consoles we're quite weak if you compared them to the PC counterparts. Unlike the 360/PS3 generation where both of those machines were actually quite a match for a higher end pc. Obviously, times have changed quite a bit.
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The idea of optimizing for hardware only made sense when you were brute forcing graphics on lower spec hardware than PC. You are using PC parts with fully functioning OSs running in the background. It only makes sense to code at the software level now.
It’s not cost effective to have exotic hardware, code for that plus all the different PC variants. Now devs can target a minimum spec and improve from there rather than being all over the place trying to port things and then get subpar ports. Having consistent platforms can only improve the gaming industry.
magnumpy
Member
rumors at present are that these new boxes (PS5 and XboxTwo) are coming in ~2 years to coincide with the availability of 7nm manufacturing yeah?
It's somewhat problematic to predict the future based on the past because a major shakeup In the methods used for technological progress and production are due for a major shakeup sometime in the future. assuming 7nm will be where we are at in ~2 years is not guaranteed, it could be off either too soon or too late, we'll just have to wait and see. moores law has been a historically reliable precedent in the past, but like I said a shakeup is coming. before we used the "nm" or "nanometer" scale, I'm talking about the past here, we used "microns" or "um" to speak about this kind of thing. that changed, now we use "nanometers" to speak about this kind of thing.
the sky isn't falling or anything, at least not within any of our lifetimes. but predictions about the future based on the past aren't necessarily reliable wrt computer technology. PlayStation and Xbox use the same basic technology as PCs and cell phones, "Playstation" and "Xbox" are just Brand Names(TM)
It's somewhat problematic to predict the future based on the past because a major shakeup In the methods used for technological progress and production are due for a major shakeup sometime in the future. assuming 7nm will be where we are at in ~2 years is not guaranteed, it could be off either too soon or too late, we'll just have to wait and see. moores law has been a historically reliable precedent in the past, but like I said a shakeup is coming. before we used the "nm" or "nanometer" scale, I'm talking about the past here, we used "microns" or "um" to speak about this kind of thing. that changed, now we use "nanometers" to speak about this kind of thing.
the sky isn't falling or anything, at least not within any of our lifetimes. but predictions about the future based on the past aren't necessarily reliable wrt computer technology. PlayStation and Xbox use the same basic technology as PCs and cell phones, "Playstation" and "Xbox" are just Brand Names(TM)
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