JimmyJones
Banned
I won't be buying it anyway after the turd that was TLOU1.
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The Naughty Dog Agenda - RobinGaming
- Thread starter cormack12
- Start date
FunGamezRFun2play
Banned
Well there you go. The biggest way to embarass yourself.
Go fuck yourself. I'm sure the reason neogaf lowered the barrier for membership is that you normalize shit posts like this, and bled membership. I really don't give a fuck about white men triggered by lesbians in their games. I have to say, i just love being on the right side of history so much, and watching this insulated bubble of impotent white manhood burst. Sad and hilarious!
Helios
Member
Ar¢tos
Member
Bill was a background character. His sexuality was there just to tick a box.
A strong gay character , but what a coincidence, his partner isn't there, left because they had a discussion and it's later found dead, a way to avoid any interaction between them two. And when they find the body he shows 2 seconds of emotion and then says "fuck him" and continues like nothing had happened.
E.T. Waifu
Member
Exactly. Plus, we're talking about a fucking videogame. What is wrong with people?
Grinchy
Banned
White men are the problem once again. How original.
Vampire On Titus
Member
I don't think he said there was a mainstream movement. Why add that bit just to make his point seem weaker than it was? Regardless, what if that's not your contention? As it's not the contention of most people in this thread. Not my contention as the person who posted the comic. What if you're just observing a familiar pattern of behavior that's lead to garbage tier, dumpster juice writing several times in the past? Is that not a valid concern?
Also, yet again, his concerns are not confined to the kiss. Nor are the concerns of most posters in this thread. The social media attitudes can't and shouldn't be hand woven because they're a reflection of the people who work at that company (obviously) and an indication of where the company is going. No ND game has made him feel that way but he also acknowledges and understands why other fans felt that way about the decisions in Uncharted 4. He's, justifiably, worrying out loud that ND is going further down that path. Far enough that it may alienate him. Again, where's the irrationality? Why isn't this valid?
And it's not just retweeting Chloedine. Have you intentionally picked the most banal example of their social media presence? Let's not gloss over straw-manning and insulting fans, or a hand picked hire with a bigoted twitter presence. Let's not gloss over Neil Druckman openly admitting to taking cues from a hardcore social constructionist who thinks women being weaker than men (on average) is a socially perpetuated myth. Let's not gloss over that soon after this influence Amy Hennig was given the boot and Drukmann took over Uncharted.
You can say "he simply fears for TLoU2 because of the kiss" but that doesn't make it true. You have to walk past or hand-wave all the other legitimate red flags people are pointing to in order to make that case. I'll say again for the record I personally think TLoU2 will be a good game. But dismissing all the valid concerns about the direction ND is taking as the irrational fear-mongering of homophobes is bullshit.
Redshirt
Banned
Mainstream because outliers are not important. You can always find some nut on Twitter saying or doing something bizarre.
Also, I don't think most people who make these issues out to be bigger than they are fear-mongering homophobes. I see it as a reflection of their insecurities.
I keep thinking what if the game is great even with a blatant agenda. Do you dismiss the game because of the agenda or play anyways for the great game. Does agenda trump great game ? But I hate uncharted 1-3 and what I have played of last of us so the agenda is just pushing me further away from the game.
Vampire On Titus
Member
"There's no mainstream effort to make homosexuality seem superior to heterosexuality. These are irrational fears."
You misrepresented what the poster said then attributed this misrepresentation to him as one of his "irrational fears." You can debate how much relevance SJWs have over mainstream culture all you want, I don't care. It's irrelevant to my point, I was addressing the fact that you misrepresented him.
If that's the case then I apologize for getting you wrong. I thought that's what you were saying because homophobia is literally defined as an "irrational fear of homosexuals" and you were talking about people being irrationally afraid of the gay kiss in the trailer. If that's not what you intended to imply, I'm sorry for misrepresenting you.
But still let me ask you this: Supposing your concern is the potential diminishing quality of video games you enjoy... How are any of these issues being made bigger? It's not as if RobinGaming said the sky was falling. He was fairly measured, even said he felt TLoU 2 would be a great game. He merely expressed concerns over the starkly apparent direction of ND. Valid concerns that I enumerated in my post and you didn't really address at all.
Concerns it seems you're now admitting are an issue but just exaggerated. But really who's exaggerating them? RobinGaming? Me? Most people in this thread who are saying they don't want overt & preachy political pandering in their games?
I'm seeing far more exaggeration from several posters (and Naughty Dog employees) saying "all your criticisms BS to conceal homophobia." I'm seeing far more exaggeration from posters "watching this insulated bubble of impotent white manhood burst."
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Jon Neu
Banned
It's funny how SJW sympathisers/apologists always retort to the "white men fragility/fear" dogma every time there's a criticism of the SJW antics in every regard.
Yeah, we are all imagining things because our pale skin make us secretly afraid of lesbians. It must be that.
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Jon Neu
Banned
The game can be awesome and yet let you a bad taste for it's agenda. It depends.
GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
To even state that is 'juvenile'. No one with an an ounce of intelligence would even consider that, and everyone with an ounce of intelligence would laugh at such a shallow mentality. It's astonishing that you've boiled down your view of people to that.
My God, man. I'm 60 year old, have mixed with every possible connotation of humanity and neither myself nor those who where gay, lesbian, transgender, black/brown, religious or straight, even considered the labels they were 'supposed' to be associated with. We were PEOPLE, nothing more. People like you have not invented equality. The difference is, we embraced it instead of propagandising it. I'm really getting sick and tired of these negative labels and opinions being associated with anyone who has the capacity to think with nuance and integrity.
If you can't see how the media, SJW and Feminists have taken what was once a marginal problem and expanded it into a supposed 'epidemic' then you're being very selective in your viewing. Neil himself has called it a 'secret agenda' and there's no ambiguity in what he means. He hasn't made it a secret. The point is, if he (or anyone else wants to explore diversity in the political sense), then he or the industry at large needs to build IPs to fully express their vision. Artificially injecting it into established games/films/books forces them into stark relief. It's not one particular thing that creates a trend, it's the build up of little clues until they can no longer be ignored.
Robin has spotted it, as have many people in this thread and around the world. So please stop assuming we're 'scared of becoming homosexual'.
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johannesbergcrantz
Member
Without having watched the video in question yet (I feel strongly about this) Naughty dogs trademark is creating descent-playing, half-ish-ly descent written games devoid of any personality, with great production values that gets hyped up over the rainbow. (Will watch later).
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Redshirt
Banned
I wasn't. That quote was in reference to
Red Crayon Aristocrat
. Guess I should've quoted him.I'm white. I'm straight. I had no intention of casting a wide net.
But you'll never convince me that people who get bent about this kind of stuff aren't dealing with insecurities, a lack of success in the real world and so forth.
GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
I wasn't. That quote was in reference to
I'm white. I'm straight. I had no intention of casting a wide net.
But you'll never convince me that people who get bent about this kind of stuff aren't dealing with insecurities, a lack of success in the real world and so forth.
You just can't stop can you? What if it isn't because they can't deal with their insecurities? Perhaps some people are working at a deep level of thinking and you're just skipping around on the surface thinking you're deeper.
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KellyM
Member
Well she has been that way for years since she was introduced in Detective, I don't take everything Wikipedia says with a grain of salt since ANYONE can edit it, She was ALWAYS written as Lesbian, I just read her first appearance, The modern one,
KellyM
Member
Vampire On Titus
Member
We're dealing with shitty writing and important companies like Marvel Comics hiring no talent bigots who slag off the fans every chance they get. lol That's what we're dealing with, dude. But sure, assume whatever you want, I guess. Hope youre ready to have people assume whatever they want about you in return, though.
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KellyM
Member
A.Romero
Member
Yes when they try to censor or brands become fearful of social media backlash. We must push for devs to produce what they want and that includes stuff we don't like too (not that I see anything wrong with this).
TheWatcher
Banned
make whatever game you want with whatever themes you want.... But when it doesn't sell well or people disagree with the direction don't attack your customers with blanket generalisations.
I have no doubt TLOU 2 will sell millions of copies considering how successfull the first game was. This game looks even better. The graphic, the design, the gameplay, the smooth and seamless animations. Naughty Gods indeed. They are a leauge of their own.
TLOU2s E3 looks so good other devs wonder how ND did it, like a developer for Shadow of the Tomb Raider called out ND on Twitter for falsifying the gameplay, like some people on GAF said about GoW.
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Marshmallow
Banned
When people say "We don't want politics in our games" they usually mean "politics we disagree with".
Most stories that go beyond "dude saves the princess" are "political" in a sense that they are influenced by the creator's ideas and views (LotR was influenced by Tolkien's religious background, Lovercraft by his... colored views of race, etc). A lot of famous videogames are preachy as hell, take FFVII pro-environment message or MGS anti-war (Among other things) message. These games either get a free pass because these people don't care or they agree with the themes, however in-real life minorities (Especially in regard to homosexual characters) are often what they don't agree with, so they hide behind "agenda" and "shoved down our troats!" like they actually mean something.
I'm not even sure what's the agenda is in TloU 2? Lesbians exist and they can be main characters for AAA games too?
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1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Art is inherently political.
We just usually don't notice it.
Only when art depicts something that deviates from the norm and its at the same time a politicized issue(like LGBT issues or minority representation) we notice. Not because the depiction itself is political, but because the context makes it political.
In an ideal world people would react no differently to Ellie kissing a girl than to Nate kissing Elena or Ellie hugging Joel.(any normal depiction of any kind of relationship)
It is normal, fitting for the character and a perfect way to frame the violence in the trailer.
That people say that it "feels forced" or "rubs them the wrong way" tells me more about them than anything else.
They would never react that way to a scene depicting a default. The default is always accepted. But now that we have a deviation from the default we suddenly need additional justification? Bullshit.
The problem here lies with the people who a problem with that, not with the devs.
Is NaughtyDog pushing an agenda here? No. They are simply writing normal characters. It only appears like an agenda because of the context of controversy about representation in video games. But on itself it is no more or less of an agenda than the decision to make Super Mario male or the decision to have Tidus and Yuna kiss each other.
This whole "feels forced" and "was included for the sake of it" is a completely disingenuous argument.
Have you ever seen someone make a video about about a game prior to its release to voice concerns about the devs decisions to go with the default choice for their characters? Obviously not, that would be ridiculous.
But we have a complete double standard here it seems.
I don't know what people fear. When I asked that in a similar discussion on Twitter(where RobinGaming actually took part in, although he was just whiny) I got this response:
So ultimately, he has no point. He's flailing and throwing around vague, unspecific terms like "feels forced", "pushes agenda", because there is no proper argument to be made.
If you have a problem with diversity in games, you are the problem.
We just usually don't notice it.
Only when art depicts something that deviates from the norm and its at the same time a politicized issue(like LGBT issues or minority representation) we notice. Not because the depiction itself is political, but because the context makes it political.
In an ideal world people would react no differently to Ellie kissing a girl than to Nate kissing Elena or Ellie hugging Joel.(any normal depiction of any kind of relationship)
It is normal, fitting for the character and a perfect way to frame the violence in the trailer.
That people say that it "feels forced" or "rubs them the wrong way" tells me more about them than anything else.
They would never react that way to a scene depicting a default. The default is always accepted. But now that we have a deviation from the default we suddenly need additional justification? Bullshit.
The problem here lies with the people who a problem with that, not with the devs.
Is NaughtyDog pushing an agenda here? No. They are simply writing normal characters. It only appears like an agenda because of the context of controversy about representation in video games. But on itself it is no more or less of an agenda than the decision to make Super Mario male or the decision to have Tidus and Yuna kiss each other.
This whole "feels forced" and "was included for the sake of it" is a completely disingenuous argument.
Have you ever seen someone make a video about about a game prior to its release to voice concerns about the devs decisions to go with the default choice for their characters? Obviously not, that would be ridiculous.
But we have a complete double standard here it seems.
I don't know what people fear. When I asked that in a similar discussion on Twitter(where RobinGaming actually took part in, although he was just whiny) I got this response:
So ultimately, he has no point. He's flailing and throwing around vague, unspecific terms like "feels forced", "pushes agenda", because there is no proper argument to be made.
If you have a problem with diversity in games, you are the problem.
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TheWatcher
Banned
I have no doubt it will sell well myself, mostly because Sony fans would accept any shit sandwhich from their overlords and ask for seconds. I'd like to see ND produce something with deep gameplay, not another walking and climbing simulator.
HaveButOneLife
Banned
Are you serious? People can brainwash others no matter what media it is or how you want to slice it. I'm not saying that pixels can brainwash you, but the people who made it certainly can by attempting to tell you how to think. You want to know what I think? I think forget them, their virtue signaling, and their misinformed opinions on the equal rights and representation of certain demographics.
Not this cliche again. The point is that political agendas according to one's own personal politics for the sole purpose of political gain is not just a mere agenda, but propaganda at that.
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Azurro
Banned
Well, there's definitely a push from the extreme left against heterosexuality, and some believe in sexual ambiguity as an ideal. The usual place where to look is where you can find such a thread. Now that I think about it, a lot of the media push from those groups is towards something like that. It's not really about normalising it, but rather to make it the dominant position. Look at Naughty Dog's games lately, who is a developer that has bought into this ideology. It's not about representing women, but that all the competent people in power are women, to make as many characters as possible gay and a racial minority if possible. To make white guys as evil or as incompetent or flawed as possible while making the female characters incredibly competent. If 10% of the population is gay or lesbian, then it's odd to see so many characters being like this.
The social media presence you could argue at first that it's just that, social media. However, the people actually directing the games are pushing towards this direction, so you can't exactly dismiss the social media posts as just that. I'm actually kind of taken aback by the blatantness of the message in TLOU2, it gives me the impression it is a game that has a story to tell, but so far the impression I have is that it acts as a soap box of what things should be like.
I'll see how the final game is like, but as of now, that's not my type of game and an ideology I don't support, so as of now I am not going to buy it.
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HaveButOneLife
Banned
People like me are homophobes because we're tired of being preached at for not accepting LGBT individuals, even though we already do? No, can that nonsense. We're just tired of social justice advocates trying to spoonfeed these extreme ideas down our throats. We already appreciate and/or criticize everyone on an equal level, we don't need virtue signalers to remind us on who the boogeyman is.
Honestly, you can't get through to people who already have their minds made up. We're just all bigots and we need to accept ND and their storytelling for what it is (/s). The main flaw with his or her argument is the fact that Robin's message was not used for agenda and/or irrational purposes, but to say why that exact thing is what ND is doing. They're just trying to pin on the other side; a common political tactic.
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Red Crayon Aristocrat
Member
It's less about that and more about sending the message that being gay is superior to being straight.
Like I said, it's the old "progressive stack" chestnut about the further you get away from being straight, white and male, the more value you have as a human being in the eyes of extremist SJWs.
This isn't a "mainstream" thing yet, it's a fringe movement but one that is actively trying to infiltrate and spread their ideas in mainstream media and culture.
And just so we're clear, I absolutely do not have a problem with LGBT characters, the LGBT themes in Gone Home didn't bother me, I haven't played it yet but I bought Life is Strange and plan on giving it a try, but it's got to be an actual story, Gabby Rivera's America once again is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, Gabby is "queer and brown" (her words) and she wrote a comic about how fucking awesome it is to be queer and brown, that's not a story, that's not interesting, that's crap, would I write a story about how fucking awesome it is to be straight and white and expect people to like that and find it interesting? Of course not.
In fact part of what bothers me about this is it's a wasted opportunity, more diversity in media SHOULD be a good thing, but instead too often what we're getting is simply tokenism, tokenism seems to be what SJWs are ravenously demanding, not interesting characters that happen to be gay, but characters who are gay and that's basically all there is to them, why is that something people want? Why is that something you can't criticize without being labeled a homophobe?
And one more thing about Prey, I can forgive it because the virtue signaling moments are at the end of the day a small part of a larger story that is good and a game that is excellent, which is why the virtue signaling stuck out like a sore thumb since the rest of the game was so good, so it remains to be seen if TLOU2 is going to manage to tell a compelling overall story, hopefully it will.
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Marshmallow
Banned
Shouldn't you be more worried about the mountain of people hating, disliking and simply rejecting homosexuals on principle? (Which are a lot) Rather than what, some authors telling you lesbians are awesome? What are you even afraid, that they'll turn people gay? Hunt straight people on the street? I can't even think of a videogame telling me being gay is better than being straight, but I can think of 100 videogames using gays a laughing stock (And if you point that out, like the scenes in P5, people call you a snowflake).
By the way "Being gay is good!" doesn't necessarily mean being gay is better than being straight, people tend to send positive messages about homosexuality since homosexuals often have suffered discrimination and they are still discriminated to this day in many part of the world.
Because you are not fooling anyone with "I'm not homophobic but something virtue signaling something agenda something SJW".
Is Neil Duckman coming to your home shoving down your throat (Why do you love this word?) a copy of TloU 2? What does it even mean? They shouldn't make the game they want because you are offended by it?
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Marshmallow
Banned
The most recent ND games are Uncharted 4 and TloU 4 and both feature straight white male leads and Uncharted is like one of the most straight series ever. Do you actually play these games???
You must hate Brave New World and 1984. Or any book or story ever attempting to push a message.
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Big4reel
Member
I don`t know man, I know I`m going to get shit for this but I think Naughty Dog technically has the right to make games like these. I mean there are games with right wing ''agendas'' or messages. People just don`t like it when a form of media has a political message they don`t agree with but are completely ok if it has something they agree with. I guess the problem with Naughty Dog`s recent games is that they aren`t subtle at all with their agenda.
Red Crayon Aristocrat
Member
I wasn't talking about video games but stuff like Gabby Rivera's America comic and the wider cultural attitude of the progressive stack.
This isn't quite in games yet, but it seems like it will be soon, that's the problem.
And yeah, I get that there's a lot of true blue homophobia out there, it's unfortunate, but certain progressive writers have overcorrected as a response and given us token, one dimensional gay characters like again, the America comic, I just don't find that stuff interesting for the same reason a gay guy wouldn't find the movie Porky's interesting.
But provide gay characters that aren't one dimensional and it's fine.
And finally, I just don't like being preached at in movies, games, etc, even if it's something I may agree with, who in their right mind does? It's an easy, back patting thing that's not gonna offer memorable experiences that will really stick with you and inspire passion.
I'll give you an example, the original Star Wars trilogy, on the surface it's a simple good vs evil, black and white tale, except as the story goes on Luke is challenged, he's tempted by the dark side, he learns the line between good and evil isn't as clear cut as it once seemed, there you go today.
But today a lot of progressive writers are presenting minority characters who are flawless role models in a way that's supposed to help people's self esteem I guess, but that's shallow, boring and lame.
GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
But two women kissing is normal. I see it with my friends, in the clubs I go to, in films and occasionally on the street. Stop trying to suggest those who have a problem are homophobic. It's fucking annoying.
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Vampire On Titus
Member
No it isn't. "all art is political" is just an excuse thrown around to justify preachy, didactic, crap when it gets called out. Then invariably there's some super-reach-ass justification for why anything under the sun is political if you squint and look hard enough. Even down to a still life of fruit in a bowl or a simple portrait. That's blatantly not true. The simple fact that art reflects the personality of its creator and social customs of its era is not inherently political. Specific messaging and theories about governance is inherently political. Messaging about identity politics, social policy, foreign policy, etc is inherently political. All art can be interpreted politically because all art can be interpreted through any lens of analysis. But all art is not inherently political.
Harry Potter is not inherently political art. Atlas Shrugged is.
By the way political art isn't even the problem. Preachy, didactic, soap-box grandstanding art is the problem. Bad writing is the problem. Tonally inconsistent or immersion breaking narrative decisions for the sake of SJW pandering is the problem. Especially in otherwise apolitical works. These problems plagued other companies who displayed a similar pattern of behavior to Naughty Dog. All too familiar red flags have emerged and there's concern that this might lead to declining quality in their games.
Again. Might is the claim being made. RobinGaming plainly says in his video that he thinks TLoU 2 will be a great game. He just has concerns over some of the behaviors Naughty Dog is displaying and where that could lead.
Can you honestly tell me the excerpt linked above doesn't come off as forced to you? Can you honestly tell me that it isn't contrived preachy shit that you could reasonably dislike despite having no problems with gay people? Can you honestly tell me that the author's social media statements bare no resemblance to the kind ND employees have made?
What are you talking about "need additional justification?" If anything it's the justifications ND offers that are part of the problem. Neil Druckmann's presentation about his "secret agenda" (tongue in cheek but it clearly lays his motives) and repeatedly proclaiming that he's inspired by a hardcore social constructionist who literally believes that women being weaker than men (on average) is a socially perpetuated myth.
If Neil and ND said less there'd probably less red flags for people to notice.
Again the argument gets dishonestly boiled down to the trailer and the kiss. It's said in the video and multiple times in this thread; it doesn't come down to simply Lesbians kissing. People make videos about the potentially troubling direction of their favorite studios all the time. People make videos criticising antagonistic attitudes towards the fans all the time. People make videos about bigoted employees all the time.
In fact people were making videos taking the piss out of Naughty Dog with essentially the same point nearly a year ago. Way before the E3 trailer existed.
There's no double standard unless you ignore the actual arguments being presented and sub in your own assumptions.
What is this supposed to mean? There's no context for his participation in the full discussion thread. All Robin Gaming has said (seemingly) is something you've consistently ignored. That the kiss in itself isn't the problem. It's taking everything together in context. From Neil Druckmann's stated agenda, to his praise and admitted influence from a hard-line social constructionist, to his hand picked token hires (one of which clearly displaying bigoted attitudes), To the shitty and combative attitude employees of ND have taken toward the fans.
Also, in my opinion, the ousting of Amy Hennig.
It's not whiny for him to essentially say "hey, a lot of these moves dont look too great and I'm worried ND might be headed in the wrong direction but ultimately I think TLoU2 will be great." He's not jumping the gun. He's not writing the game off early. It's actually a measured expression of a valid concern.
Dragon_Rocks
Member
I had made a post long time back here about UC4. If you see the characters in that, all male characters (Drake, Sam, Sully, Rafe, Drake's dad) are either criminal, evil, liars etc. so bad in some way whereas all the female characters (Elena, Nadine, Old Lady, Drake's mom) are good. Its not just about who is the protagonist or lead in the game but also how they are being portrayed. Pretty much same was the case for TloU as well. Most of the male characters were bad but none of the female characters were shown to be bad.
Diversity is good in all media but I dislike when only one group is portrayed as bad. ND has to be make sure that all groups are being treated equally. At least with TloU2 I see that there are bad female characters as well which is a step in the right direction.
Marshmallow
Banned
Harry Potter? The series in which the villains heavily drawn from the nazi and race supremacists?
You mean devs and writers are people and they are influenced by other people and their own beliefs (And the enviroment that shapes them)? You didn't figure it until now?
Marshmallow
Banned
No, they are not, Drake is literally the hero of the story. He's not "bad". He's the character you sympathize and play. Flawed, maybe. And isn't the villain in 3 a woman?
Vampire On Titus
Member
That doesn't make it an inherently political work of art. You could write a story with Hitler in it that's not political depending on the content.
Yeah and if they're influenced by super fringe ridiculous beliefs that worsen the quality of their writing people are allowed to say they don't like it? They're not allowed to notice that people with a similar fringe ridiculous opinions tend to write absolute dreck and express concern it might happen to a studio they love?
MomsNewBoyfriend
Neo Member
Wouldn't call it an agenda per se, but Naughty Dog's writing always comes off as heavy handed and pandering
Ka-Kui
Member
Drake makes a stupid decision to not inform Elena about what he's up to with his brother. Elena comes across as a saint. Storywise it makes no sense, it's poorly written.
Nadine one of the antagonists of the story comes in, kicks Nate's arse all over the place (twice) and then leaves the story almost unscathed, all the while having a bog standard, cookie cutter "strong independent woman" personality with little personality defects too.
This is evidently poor writing in my eyes. This is not a coincidence for two games in a row where the same creators intentionally make the males look worse than their female counterparts.
Perhaps you're right, these are political angles I don't like. I don't like the insinuation that males are a problem to deal with and women have had to suffer through male oppression, and so we have to take one for the team and accept wanton portrayals of perfect saintly/superior femenines.
I'm not here to be preached at that my gender is inferior especially when indulging in my hobby.
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Marshmallow
Banned
Sounds like "politics" is a buzzword you use to justify any opinion you feel like. This is political! We want politics out of our games! This is not political, because... reasons.
I'm not sure how a story that denounces race supremacists and nazi ideals and shows the danger these groups represent isn't political, but apparently that's the case.
(How are you going to make a story about Hitler without being political by the way? Either way you denounce him or you make him look better, which itself is a political statement)
I think a lot of people write shit without being influenced by feminist groups (I don't even think Anita is a good critic lol). In fact I think writing in game is often juvenile in an attempt to pander to 12 years old kids.
Not to mention the criticism toward Naughty Dog so far has been incredibly nebulous and it's not even clear what people are complaining about (Clearly not the kiss because we are not homophobic, ahah!) TloU 1 was written by Neil Druckmann too and it's well regarded, so ???.
Also people should be able to make the game they want, but not really because agendas are bad or something?
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Barsinister
Banned
I had an edition of the year's best science fiction from the late 90's. In it was a neo-noir story about a detective on a case about "curing" gayness in the neonatal stage of development using the mother's placental barrier. The detective in the story was a homosexual and had mixed feelings about the way the case was wrapped up. I believe the author of the story was gay also. I read it almost twenty years ago, but the story stuck with me. We will need to cut through the noise to see if this new game will have a story worth telling.
bitbydeath
Member
I thought she was a bit overbearing personally.
Should have gotten with Chloe instead IMO.
Ka-Kui
Member
Boring. That's what she became. She was really interesting and cool as the plucky reporter/journalist looking for interesting and cool stories in the first game who would even compel Nate when he was trying to be sensible to push forward. Somehow in the sequels they took that element away and became a bit of a ball and chain for Nate.
Kenpachii
Member
Stop being racist.
Vampire On Titus
Member
How are you saying that arguing from the side that everything is political? I'm clearly defining politics as literally what the word means. Unless you're defining politics as the sum total of all human interaction and that's clearly not what we're talking about. Also I never said I want politics out of my games. I literally said political art is not the problem. You're not even being coherent.
All you've down is show how you'll interpret the story through a political lense. Now how the story must be inherently political. If I write a 3 panel comic strip of Hitler baking and eating a pie with no purpose whatsoever it isn't an inherently political work of art.
Uhh... Okay? And if that produces writing you dislike you're allowed to say so. You're allowed to say so even without the default assumption being that you must hate 12 year old kids.
No it's actually not. It's been explicitly spelled out several times now. I'm not even gonna bother typing out the list of complaints again. Just go read them.
You're going to need to progress beyond pithy straw-man arguments if you ever want to make an effective point.
Dragon_Rocks
Member
We are not taking about the hero of the story but rather the characterization. Kratos is also the hero of GoW series but it doesn't make him good guy. Drake may be a nice guy types overall but he still has a criminal background, is still out to do criminal stuff in UC4 and lies to Elena in the story etc. These still make him a bad person. He is the one who decides to steal the item from the auction illegally and then ends up killing several of Nadine's mercenaries when things go wrong. Even Rafe and Nadine were there to properly legally outbid everyone and get the item. He is a likable character but that doesn't make him good always.
UC3 had Amy Hennig as the director. We are talking about games where Neil Druckmann has been the lead.