Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
The more you try and force normalization, the farther apart we all get. I think that is the argument that is genuinely trying to be made here.
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The Naughty Dog Agenda - RobinGaming
- Thread starter cormack12
- Start date
Marshmallow
Banned
I think art is inherently political and it's the result of the creator's opinions, bias and opinions. Pretty much every story ever tend to have a message or a theme.
Sure it is. Why did you pick Hitler of all people? You could have created your own OC. Instead you picked someone controversial who is associated with nazi ideals and genocide. Heck, even your own OC would be a result of your own bias and opinions.
(I would also argue that you didn't write a story about Hitler lol)
Probably because I'm not ranting about agenda, or social engineering and putting double standards on homosexual characters that I wouldn't on straight couples. People call you homophobes because you constantly rant about agendaaaaas and "being shoved down my throat" and "virtue signaling". If Ellie was kissing a boy this thread wouldn't exist.
Yeah, like the conspiracies regarding Amy Henning firing. Solid material, there.
Do you realize you literally linked nothing? There is still no solid criticism on why ND writing got worse or how other than some "Neil talked to Anita". Their last two games are both highly rated and TloU 1's narrative is highly praised. Uncharted isn't definitely highly rated as TloU story-wise, but then was it ever?
Vampire On Titus
Member
If you think a story simply having a message or theme makes it political then we don't need to talk about this anymore. You could have just said you fundamentally disagree with my point instead of specifically making a case about Hitler.
Robin Games wasn't ranting. He gave a calm and measured explanation of his perspective. I'm not ranting about social engineering or putting any double standards on homosexual characters either. Red Strings Club is one of my favorite games this year. The two playable characters are a gay couple. Prominent LGBT casting. Well written, political without being preachy. Devs aren't dickheads on social media. Who are you talking to?
My entire contention has been there's sufficient red flags that expressing concern over NDs direction is valid. That's literally it. And the sum total of the red flags wasn't just "Oh no! gays are kissing!" Despite what you need to believe for the convenience of your argument. I even said multiple times TLoU will probably be a good game. So did Robin Games.
There's a single speculative element to my take on Hennig's firing, which I fully stated up front. The rest is all mainstream games press reporting on what sources inside ND told them. Believe them or don't. There's enough there for it to be a red flag regardless and pretending that's the extent of the criticisms is disingenuous.
Keep it straight. I never said ND's writing got worse. I've specifically said several times that there's valid reason to be concerned that it might. That's what the videos about. The post I linked is clearly addressing your attempt to point out hypocrisy where none exists. So this whole bit you wrote is a non-sequitor.
Also you keep having to frame things dishonestly to make your point. It's not just "Neil talked to Anita." It's Neil has several times said she's an inspiration for his views and advocated "implementation of her words into future writing and gaming projects." He's explicitly said she's an influence on how he writes games.
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Azurro
Banned
In the first TLoU, I think Druckmann had to be way more restrained and subtle about his political agenda. Then Left Behind shows up to make it explicit to everyone that Ellie is a lesbian, which was surprising since the original story was way more subtle about that aspect of their characters. Uncharted 4 is where the cracks begin to appear, since it's mostly an Amy Hennig story and characters, but with insertions by Druckmann that were completely jarring. I'd be willing to bet Nadine was an insertion by Druckmann, given how she doesn't really fit with the rest of the tone of the game to me, as the video explains pretty well.
Now, given the presentation trailer of TLoU2, the main point of the trailer is that Ellie is a lesbian, not really that much about anything else. It's a trend I'm beginning to notice and I am not on board, that's not a game for me. I don't want to play a game with a story and political point of view to what I'd consider propaganda. It's a point of view I've seen, don't agree with, and I don't want to see more. Then again, we'll see.
HaveButOneLife
Banned
I want to see how many consistent people there are who are siding with the SJW side on this, to see if your standards are consistent: hypothetically, if my goal to become a game developer is realized, what if I imposed my libertarian philosophy on you and made a game that's completely set on preaching to you that socialism is a regressive ideology, and showed you examples in the game as to why that is? Would you hold the same belief that I have every right to do with this art form as I choose, and my point that said art form is also open to both criticism and interpretation?
I'm not saying I would ever do that, but if SJW's are going to virtue signal then they're going to have to at least do it right.
I'm not saying I would ever do that, but if SJW's are going to virtue signal then they're going to have to at least do it right.
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and this is a problem I also have with today’s Bioware games. Right now Ellie’s girlfriend is just gay nothing else she is a gay character. In last of US 1 Bill was also gay but in the first place he was a human being. This feels like „hello nice to meet you I am gay“
Ar¢tos
Member
Developers better use only real life people and events in games, otherwise they will be accused of having agendas independently of what they do.
I don't know how they cope with having their hard work trashed like this in media. I'm starting to think that it's actually good that most gamers are casual and don't participate in these forums, these places can really kill the joy of gaming.
I don't know how they cope with having their hard work trashed like this in media. I'm starting to think that it's actually good that most gamers are casual and don't participate in these forums, these places can really kill the joy of gaming.
Scopa
The Tribe Has Spoken
Haha, you genuinely made me laugh. That is exactly how it feels when they pander.
A.Romero
Member
I'm amazed at the stuff being said about UC4's story. I mean, I played the game and I liked it but the story was everything but thought provoking.
Evil white men? Strong independent women being casually inserted and adding nothing?
In a sense you could say it's kind of fanservice. What would the problem be if it was like that? What's the difference between big breasted women, half dressed in ridiculous armor and a lesbian saving the day in a world where heterosexual white male are evil?
It's the same overreacting, hypersensitive culture that has caused games to be canceled, people to be fired and so many social media meltdowns.
If people enjoy having a different power fantasy, what's the problem in them having it?
Serously guys, we need to be thicker skinned and let the overreaction to people that don't play video games and don't get them. We need to respect the medium, regardless if the topics covered are not in our taste. We need to let the medium evolve.
I wonder if things are ever going to be like before and we can go back to just play video games without feeling persecuted...
Evil white men? Strong independent women being casually inserted and adding nothing?
In a sense you could say it's kind of fanservice. What would the problem be if it was like that? What's the difference between big breasted women, half dressed in ridiculous armor and a lesbian saving the day in a world where heterosexual white male are evil?
It's the same overreacting, hypersensitive culture that has caused games to be canceled, people to be fired and so many social media meltdowns.
If people enjoy having a different power fantasy, what's the problem in them having it?
Serously guys, we need to be thicker skinned and let the overreaction to people that don't play video games and don't get them. We need to respect the medium, regardless if the topics covered are not in our taste. We need to let the medium evolve.
I wonder if things are ever going to be like before and we can go back to just play video games without feeling persecuted...
I think it is because of the climate these days. If you get to hear all the time how sexist and how many bad tropes your game has and you see the same bullshit on the other side you get a bit upset about it. It is a double standard that is widely accept in this games Industry by the gaming press and it really annoys me. You want to be progressive with your games I do not mind but doing the same shit just on the opposite is not being progressive at all. Uncharted t me also felt very meh because of the Mary Sue Nadine character. She was not a good character she was a boring trope one.
Schrödinger's cat
Banned
For me, the most worrying point raised in this discussion is the video in the OP showing a company hand-picking someone to work on their product who has demonstrated shameless and blatant bigotry. And for this detail to not be addressed.
When I see moral grandstanding I find it goes increasingly with a sense of superiority and dismissiveness.
As though it's ok to be as offensive, dismissive and downright bigotted - so long as you claim to have a pinky-toe in the waters of morality.
I don't think trading one form of prejudice for another is constructive.
When I see moral grandstanding I find it goes increasingly with a sense of superiority and dismissiveness.
As though it's ok to be as offensive, dismissive and downright bigotted - so long as you claim to have a pinky-toe in the waters of morality.
I don't think trading one form of prejudice for another is constructive.
GenericUser
Member
I think Lesbians are hot and Drake is a boring dork.
5secondrulesucks
Banned
As general guidance can we stop labeling posters as homophobes. And at the other end of the spectrum can we steer clear of saying there is an agenda of exclusion. If there is an agenda, it is likely one of inclusion/progressiveness and it may come at the cost of excluding some of the more generic/common characters. Actively looking to include such characters is not the same as actively looking to cleanse the game of them. There is a subtle difference. This isn't at any one in particular but more guidelines going forward as common themes are starting to rear their heads.
5secondrulesucks
Banned
generic is thrown around too much. generic generally means bad. if a character is a gay or lesbian character doesnt mean they are automatically a good character. i think a lot of the problem in video games is that it just cant (and maybe im wrong here) come close to lets say a movie in terms of character development. i think someone else here mentioned it but i really do think, all politics aside, every character is going to suffer by just the nature of games itself. there is an art to making your characters relatable and if you did have a message or a theme putting them in your art in ways it was something that people had to think about and it stuck to them and gave them a certain realization and it might not always be easy. now all it is, is who can yell loudest.
onlyoneno1
Member
In all forms of media/entertainment there is always some one pushing agendas. I got used to it years ago. This guy seems to have a valid point in that the focus has shifted away from other aspects of the game to specifically showing off a relationship.
cormack12
Gold Member
If we go back to TLoU, we have Ellie a young girl as one of the main characters (albeit limited playability). In this post apocalyptic world along her way with Joel, they meet Marlene (a female black leader of the firely resistance), Bill (a gay resistance smuggler), Henry (a black male looking for the fireflies), Sam (a black male, Henry's brother), David (a white creepy molester), Riley (black female, love interest for Ellie), Tommy (white male, Joel's brother), Maria (Tommy's wife and leader of the settlement, inherited).
It wasn't pushed in your face, each character was just in the game and we discovered them as we played through. There was no drama and no hate. No over reaction. People just didn't care. Which is a healthy viewpoint. People playing the game looked beyond all these things and liked the characters for who they were.
Naughty Dog did a good job of providing diversity and culturally relevant characters. However, it seems it's gone beyond that now, it's not enough to just create these characters. It's switched into chasing acknowledgment for doing so. Someone made a comparison to art above. And I think it can be used as an example actually.
TLoU is like a painting hanging in a gallery. People walk up to it and appreciate it for its nuance and subtlety. You can drink in the gorgeous visuals and linger over each character in the frame, appreciating their placement and representation without it ever being overbearing or detracting from the overall canvas.
So far, TLoU2 is like a follow up piece of work with an out of context political message shoehorned into the foreground, with ND running round pushing it under everyone's nose and demanding it be liked and acknowledged.
Ironically, I feel the studio is losing a bit of its own identity. It's like the leads have looked into the stagnant puddle of the internet and discovered the pool of Narcissus.
I'm still going to buy the game because I liked TLoU and when you look past the eye rolling fan service there will undoubtedly be another solid game underneath. The main problem with all of this is that most people just don't care, and the studio are chasing the cheers from a very small demographic of their overall audience. What RobinGaming and the middle of the ground people are saying in this thread, is that it's obvious and it being placed front and centre is turning people away. Not because of the sexuality, sex or ethnicity of the characters but because it's not honest and when you do this, it leads to subpar work. Like the trailer itself. It was a really poor splice of two completely different themes tied together with a juxtaposition that had the strength of cotton. The amateur and cliche transition from face to face in environments with the dramatic sentence probably summing up the entire piece the best, as they boxed themself into a creative corner.
And to be honest the real talking point here isn't eved the ND agenda, the most pertinent talking point from the trailer was how Ellie's sexuality was completely taken out of her hands. In the DLC she kissed Riley, so it an active decision. This new trailer is like (from Dina) 'err, you're a lesbian. I'm a female, that means it is totally OK for me to just approach and kiss you, because there is no way you wouldn't want me to'. And that's what happens when you shoehorn actions onto characters. A supposedly straight female (insinuated by the trailer), suddenly wants to start kissing the lesbian. Could you honestly get any more cliche and worse than that? And if there is some subplot where Dina is bisexual then the context has been completely removed from the scene, which again begs the question why was it in there? For the vanity of applause.
It wasn't pushed in your face, each character was just in the game and we discovered them as we played through. There was no drama and no hate. No over reaction. People just didn't care. Which is a healthy viewpoint. People playing the game looked beyond all these things and liked the characters for who they were.
Naughty Dog did a good job of providing diversity and culturally relevant characters. However, it seems it's gone beyond that now, it's not enough to just create these characters. It's switched into chasing acknowledgment for doing so. Someone made a comparison to art above. And I think it can be used as an example actually.
TLoU is like a painting hanging in a gallery. People walk up to it and appreciate it for its nuance and subtlety. You can drink in the gorgeous visuals and linger over each character in the frame, appreciating their placement and representation without it ever being overbearing or detracting from the overall canvas.
So far, TLoU2 is like a follow up piece of work with an out of context political message shoehorned into the foreground, with ND running round pushing it under everyone's nose and demanding it be liked and acknowledged.
Ironically, I feel the studio is losing a bit of its own identity. It's like the leads have looked into the stagnant puddle of the internet and discovered the pool of Narcissus.
I'm still going to buy the game because I liked TLoU and when you look past the eye rolling fan service there will undoubtedly be another solid game underneath. The main problem with all of this is that most people just don't care, and the studio are chasing the cheers from a very small demographic of their overall audience. What RobinGaming and the middle of the ground people are saying in this thread, is that it's obvious and it being placed front and centre is turning people away. Not because of the sexuality, sex or ethnicity of the characters but because it's not honest and when you do this, it leads to subpar work. Like the trailer itself. It was a really poor splice of two completely different themes tied together with a juxtaposition that had the strength of cotton. The amateur and cliche transition from face to face in environments with the dramatic sentence probably summing up the entire piece the best, as they boxed themself into a creative corner.
And to be honest the real talking point here isn't eved the ND agenda, the most pertinent talking point from the trailer was how Ellie's sexuality was completely taken out of her hands. In the DLC she kissed Riley, so it an active decision. This new trailer is like (from Dina) 'err, you're a lesbian. I'm a female, that means it is totally OK for me to just approach and kiss you, because there is no way you wouldn't want me to'. And that's what happens when you shoehorn actions onto characters. A supposedly straight female (insinuated by the trailer), suddenly wants to start kissing the lesbian. Could you honestly get any more cliche and worse than that? And if there is some subplot where Dina is bisexual then the context has been completely removed from the scene, which again begs the question why was it in there? For the vanity of applause.
Scopa
The Tribe Has Spoken
Precisely.
Ulysses 31
Member
AKA Virtue signalling.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
But accurately displaying normalcy isn't "forced".
That fact that some people feel like it is "forced" speaks volumes about them, but nothing else.
The problem here isn't NaughtyDog, or diversity in games, but rather the people who are "rubbed the wrong way" by it.
In other words: Y'all are the problem.
But devs have no obligation to be mindful of some peoples insecurities and thankfully it doesn't look like they give a fuck.
Diversity in games is not a fad, if anything, we're just at the beginning. Learn to deal with it.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
May I ask, would it be different if Ellie was kissing a guy?
I still think it would be out of place and a weird choice of scene show for an E3 trailer for this type of game.
I think the general reception would be It's a bad trailer except the gameplay parts which is pretty much the response here.
Only difference is we're asking why show it as it was evidently something they wanted to show.
I still think it would be out of place and a weird choice of scene show for an E3 trailer for this type of game.
I think the general reception would be It's a bad trailer except the gameplay parts which is pretty much the response here.
Only difference is we're asking why show it as it was evidently something they wanted to show.
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5secondrulesucks
Banned
nope. it is forced. a lot of the issue is naughty dog treating people like they are idiots. like i said earlier in my post the point of art is to make someone feel something through your work. come to a realization they havent before or to invoke an emotion not because its so blatant and lazy and takes zero work to accomplish, which is what they are doing. they are insulting peoples intelligence by putting forth something so obvious and then insulting people who dont like it. clearly something is wrong.
InterMusketeer
Gold Member
Yes, it would also be weird if an established homosexual character in a relationship came to (heterosexual) Ellie, told her she smells, and started kissing her for no discernable reason.
It even would have been weird if this was just a kiss between two people in a relationship. I don't think I've ever seen any kind of announcement or trailer deal with such themes. Like I said, before, we'd probably be laughing at how dumb it is, and how a dime in a dozen a revenge story like that would be.
5secondrulesucks
Banned
^ it was fucking weird seeing ellie stand around like a bar bro checking out the ladies. like i dont think ive ever seen a woman do that in all my life. she was prowling at a comical level. for some reason no one brings up that embarrassing part
Azurro
Banned
It depends on what you mean by normality. Do homosexual relationships exist? Yes of course, there's no need to freak out about them, we know it happens and it's alright. If it was like the character of Bill in the previous game, then no one would be batting an eye, that would simply be another part of his character. However, the way the trailer was portrayed was kind of putting a big ad for on your face, no subtlety in the least. The trailer was "Hello, I'm Ellie and I'm a lesbian! This game is about me being a lesbian who has all the girl power superpowers". It's almost like bait, as if ND is saying: "if you don't like this you are a homophobe and a mysoginist. Aren't we progressive?".
BTW, it's interesting how you feel you are "on the right side of history". Ethics is not a solved problem, it'd be a strange claim to say you have the absolute truth on what goodness is.
FranXico
Member
That does happen in real life.
One Question: Why are Indy games so much better with diversity than lets say Bioware and naughtydog?
Indy games are the most diverse and no one really cares when you see however someone i a Bioware game you can tell in 2 minutes what their gender, race, sexuality and personality. It is like they are introducing them with the phrase that I love the same sex. And this is what I call lazy writing. Bill was such a huge step up in this direction and now they are doing this. And with Naughty dog for the first time I had the same feeling here. It is like in the Baldurs Gate 2 "remaster" in which some random ass NPS tells you in the first 30 seconds that she is trans. Same in Andromeda by the way. This is what forced feels. And I do not like that they are not characters they are gay.
Even more funny when you think about how they will fridge Ellies no name girlfriend in the first few minutes.
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1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Why shouldn't Ellies sexuality be a major part of the plot?
The first game wasn't really about the zombie apocalypse, that was just the arbitrary backdrop to a story about two characters. And just like that, TLoU2 will focus on characters again. Sexuality is a major part of human existence, so It would be weird to leave it out.
And it also worked as a perfect juxtaposition to the violence in the trailer.
Imagine if back in the day when Gears Of War was released people would've complained about the trailer, because they don't want no "pussy ass feelings agenda" in their dudebro games.
Y'all come off exactly like that. But for some reason you apparently don't realize how pathetic this is.
Have at it with your circle jerk, ensuring each other that its totally not homophobia and sexism, but valid concerns about artistic direction and narrative focus.
So you think whether or not homosexuality is normal and has a place is media is still up for debate?
The first game wasn't really about the zombie apocalypse, that was just the arbitrary backdrop to a story about two characters. And just like that, TLoU2 will focus on characters again. Sexuality is a major part of human existence, so It would be weird to leave it out.
And it also worked as a perfect juxtaposition to the violence in the trailer.
Imagine if back in the day when Gears Of War was released people would've complained about the trailer, because they don't want no "pussy ass feelings agenda" in their dudebro games.
Y'all come off exactly like that. But for some reason you apparently don't realize how pathetic this is.
Have at it with your circle jerk, ensuring each other that its totally not homophobia and sexism, but valid concerns about artistic direction and narrative focus.
So you think whether or not homosexuality is normal and has a place is media is still up for debate?
IT should not but they make a big deal of it outside of the game, In Interviews on social media etc. That is why people talk about some Agenda. Again the girl we saw will be fridged to trigger Ellies hate. So she basically only exists for this alone reason and that she is gay. And that is something people who now celebrate this would totally criticize when the main character would be male and his girlfriend/wife would be killed of to trigger his hate and reason to go on this journey.
Also it does not help hand picking a person who seems very racist against white and also hates straight people.
Also the theme of this games is supposed to be Hate.
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Marshmallow
Banned
So, basically nothing.
Being gay is not political or propaganda.
Your game won't be more special than all books/games/movise with a political message on it.
You can't impose anything on anyone because people can chose to not play your game. Which apparently you are unable to, since you think Nauthy Dog is coming to your home and forcing you to play TloU 2 at gun point.
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no they are however making it a political propaganda have you even seen the video?
And while es we can decide what to buy and what not does also mena we can ctiticize Naughty Dog for it. We can criticize them for handpicking a racist and heterophobic asshole as one of their actors. You wat to force diversity like this? be my guest I do not sicne I do not want black, gay or trans characers I want characters who are black, gay trans etc. It should never be their mainpoint except in dating games.
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Yeah , I simply can't agree with this. If I make a painting of some grass I see or draw a comic of person walking a dog. You can see politics if your aiming to look for it but is simply some nice looking grass and a person walking a dog.
Now if you have a history of promoting tweeting PETA related things or talk about a some green agenda and start painting and drawing comics around those topics then you can probably say that politics might be the surrounding the art.
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No it is not. It can be and thats fine. Movies can ake Rocky 4. but Videogames can not anymore according to "journalists" who trying to find connections between Monster Hunter and imperialism and the Trump family. Yes this is no joke. That did happen.
https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/8xvpw5/monster-hunter-world-review
I really hope games journalism is dying and it needs to die fast or people get even more stupid.
Azurro
Banned
Can you please tone it down with the accusations? I don't think anyone here has tried to be disrespectful to you. You are using a style of argument that goes "you are with us, or against us, you disgusting homophobes". No one here has advocated for lesbian and gay people to be downgraded in terms of the law, or discriminated in the workplace or anything of the sort.
That's not what I said, please read my responses properly. It's not about whether homosexual people have a place, but rather the tokenism and almost propaganda-like style of writing that is being used that is turning me off. I'm not really into a story where the first thing you know about the character is how much of a lesbian she is. Unless it's a romantic movie or in the case of games, some sort of dating simulator, it's lazy virtue signaling.
I think I'm free to say that I do not like that and that I won't be buying the game if the plot is indeed that much of a "SJW" in-your-face soap box ideology. But the game hasn't released yet, so we'll see, hopefully it's more than that.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
That is already political. I think your picture would be very Biedermeiery.
You can't not convey a message with art, and every message is ultimately political if you find someone who disagrees with it.
Vampire On Titus
Member
It's not inherently political. That was the claim. All art can be interpreted through a political lens. As well as any lens. That doesn't make a painting of a tulip inherently political.
By this logic you could just as easily say all art is inherently religious, inherently anything. All art can be interpreted through a religious lens but it's blatantly obvious that not all art is inherently religious.
By this logic you could just as easily say all art is inherently religious, inherently anything. All art can be interpreted through a religious lens but it's blatantly obvious that not all art is inherently religious.
Number one I have no idea what Biedermeiery is and number 2 if someone sees something political from the painting of the grass in front of my house then that person has issues. I'll google that word after this. A picture can just be a picture what message you get out of it is your personal issues from life.
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Azurro
Banned
That is not what is being discussed. On the other hand, just because a character in media is gay is not automatically cause for applause, that's silly tokenism and empty symbolism.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
No, because I think the accusations are accurate.
Your viewpoint, or rather the ones presented in RobinGamings video(I don't really know what your viewpoint is exactly), only makes sense from a sexist/homophobic perspective.
I don't believe Robin thinks he is sexist or homophobic. Like many people, he probably has a very fatalistic understanding of the terms(sexists treat women bad, homophobes are against gay marriage), unaware of the nuance and the latent bias is can also refer to.
No but you apply an absolutely ridiculously double standard in which homosexual characters need to be justified in some absurd way.
In which there is a very narrow window they must fit to be deemed acceptable by your standards.
Why? In the discussion right under the video, in the discussion on Twitter and in the discussion here - I have not heard a single valid argument show that there is anything wrong whats depicted. All your reaching and scrambling arguments lead me to the same conclusion: The problem lies with you guys.
Minority representation is always perceived like that at first. You're regressives positions will fade out eventually.
And I think I am free to say that this thinking reflects latent sexism and homophobia.
I also think that people who use the term "SJW" in a serious way can't be taken seriously.
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1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Quick wiki quote:
Its literally art that depicted the mundane and "normal" and was a reflection of the socio-political developments of the time.
InterMusketeer
Gold Member
So those cave drawings early humans made about hunting mammoths and other normal, daily activities were also pieces of Biedermeier art and a reflection of the politics at the time?
Darkking2001
Banned
If they had politics all the way back then probably
Art is about conveying a message...like it's not hard to understand this
Art is about conveying a message...like it's not hard to understand this
But that would cover just about like 90% everything especially if that doesn't just cover paintings, since anything that depicts reality would I think be considered be normal at least to someone.
We get that you want to get a message from someone's artwork but if someone just wants to paint a tree then it is just a painting of a tree.
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1.21Gigawatts
Banned
I put normal in quotes because it weren't objectively normal depictions but rather the ideals of a newly formed middle class that found itself ripped out the stabilizing confinements of prior forms of society. Industrialization went hand in hand with individualization and with the erosion of traditional value systems. This left people longing for identity and purpose and the found it consumption, the idealization of culture(although they consumed culture in an entirely different way that the upper class who have had access to it before).
Ultimately this also lead to fascism and communism, because these ideologies gave people that sense of identity and purpose.
So yeah, its pretty fucking political to draw a picture of a mundane thing.
Also, yes, cave drawings are political, too. They tell us a lot about how communities functioned back then. Obviously this is a far cry from what we call politics in modern society, but hey, its cavemen.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Has to be art, though. If you just take a quick picture of nature outside thats not art and also not political, its just a picture. Unless you proclaim it art, then it becomes political again because now it carries the meaning of you choosing that setting over something else.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
It's easy to say this when you are white. It's funny though, because the second these polygons that are lead characters aren't white straight males, a "certain" collection of "gamers" get upset. I just wish more of some of the people in this thread would be more honest and stop the BS. One set of people want stories told to and by a wider audience of characters. Another set of people want the same narrow set of characters in their games. And there's a 3rd set of gamers that really could less either way and most of them aren't posting in this thread.
Azurro
Banned
Not only do you keep misrepresenting what I am writing, you are also insulting people under a "you are with us or against us" mentality, with the backing of the absolute truth behind them. I would like to engage with someone that displays a more mature mentality than you do about this topic, so I think I am done talking to you about it.
I am a minority myself, and believe me, I'd be equally annoyed if the main character in media showed up in a trailer wearing a sombrero, big moustache and the first thing he'd do would be "Hola Senorita! I'm Mexicano, ese".
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Darkking2001
Banned
You ever play this game called monopoly...it's actually was a game that was meant to be a Communist propaganda tool to show how bad capitalism is.....turns out it is a pretty fun game and it backfired...woops
Also it's funny hearing from a non artist going on about "if he just wants to draw a tree" did you ask why he's drawing that tree? For me I'd assume he's going on about the branching possibilities of life.
Also it's funny hearing from a non artist going on about "if he just wants to draw a tree" did you ask why he's drawing that tree? For me I'd assume he's going on about the branching possibilities of life.
eww, that just sounds dirty and I would feel that you would be reading to much into that photo just because I chose to take a picture of the grass instead of the tree.
and as the artist I would tell you it's because I just wanted to paint the tree.
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cormack12
Gold Member
If that's your standpoint then why is it only after such an awful trailer have people criticised ND? Why didn't they criticise the cast of UC:LL (well received) or the diverse cast I outlined in TLoU (well received)? You're closing yourself off to any other avenue of criticism other than 'must be homophobes', 'must be insecure'. Are you kidding?
If you listen to the guy in the video, he is saying that look at all the great work you guys are doing. You don't need to go to extremes to shove it in our face. Or make everything into a battle or an opportunity to ram down our throat how 'progressive' you're being. We get it, we applaud you for it, we notice it. But the real truth is, many of us just don't care. Whatever creative freedom you want, then go for it, it's your product. But if a lot of your fanbase are saying 'actually guys it's becoming tiresome, stop seeking the limelight and let your actual game do the talking', then it might be an idea to balance both sides of the argument.
And yes, If Dina's boyfriend had swept round and took her in his arms then started kissing under the music, and then it cut to them being shot, it would be as awful a scene. You can remove Ellie completely from the scene and the composition is still poor. But the composition is built entirely around that 'kiss', and then the fade into sequence.