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[ethomaz]

yeah currently, and at CES actually, there was a lot of talk about a 9.2 TFLOPs PS5 which would make a lot of sense being on a smaller Navi chip.

IF the rumors are true abut the SE's then we won't get a 12TF Navi this year, because that card would be better than the Vega VII and that card remains their flagship until 2020.
IF the rumors aren't true then a 12TF Navi would basically just be like a 12TF Vega 64 or so.

Let's separated rumor from actual fact.

Sapphire confirmed there will be two mid-end Navi this July (these are facts):

$399 perf. between RTX 2060 and RTX 2070
$499 perf. between RTX 2070 and RTX 2080

AMD can change a bit the prices and all but these are the cards you should expect in July... no high-end Navi will be launched until next-year (2020).

Now the rumors:

- This SIMD-16 to SIMD-32
- 40CUs (that indeed looks accurate for the price Sapphire leaked)
- Basically everything else being talked

 

[Hellgardia]

Let's separated rumor from actual fact.

Sapphire confirmed there will be two mid-end Navi this July (these are facts):

$399 perf. between RTX 2060 and RTX 2070 <- Assuming Navi 10 Pro
$499 perf. between RTX 2070 and RTX 2080 <- Assuming Navi 10 XT

AMD can change a bit the prices and all but these are the cards you should expect in July... no high-end Navi will be launched until next-year (2020).

Now the rumors:

- This SIMD-16 to SIMD-32
- 40CUs (that indeed looks accurate for the price Sapphire leaked)
- Basically everything else being talked

This would put the Navi 10 Pro in an awkward position vs a good RTX2060 (which can be found below 350) but the Navi 10 XT in a rather interesting one (since it price matches the RTX2070).
Interested on it either way.

 

[Ellery]

Let's separated rumor from actual fact.

Sapphire confirmed there will be two mid-end Navi this July (these are facts):

$399 perf. between RTX 2060 and RTX 2070
$499 perf. between RTX 2070 and RTX 2080

AMD can change a bit the prices and all but these are the cards you should expect in July... no high-end Navi will be launched until next-year (2020).

Now the rumors:

- This SIMD-16 to SIMD-32
- 40CUs (that indeed looks accurate for the price Sapphire leaked)
- Basically everything else being talked

I wonder where the bolded part is actually coming from because the Sapphire person only answered "stronger than RTX 2070". He didn't even specifiy which product.
I mean I see it the way you do. That is where I would expect the cards to lands given the price and what the sapphire person said, but he actually didn't specify that and he only said what I repeated above.

 

[ethomaz]

I wonder where the bolded part is actually coming from because the Sapphire person only answered "stronger than RTX 2070". He didn't even specifiy which product.
I mean I see it the way you do. That is where I would expect the cards to lands given the price and what the sapphire person said, but he actually didn't specify that and he only said what I repeated above.

From the interview.

screenshot hosted at ImgBB

Image screenshot hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

But you are right he talks only about the stronger model ($499) being stronger than RTX 2070 and weaker than Vega 64 (they said Vega 64 is the strongest Radeon VII this year)... he says nothing about the $399 model... that is assumption from the sites that it will land between RTX 2060 and RTX 2070 by the price.

 

[SonGoku]

If you can't group 16 (old) or 32 (new) same type of processing instruction to make a wave then you will even to use only one SP send a wave of 16/32 that makes the power consumption increase in the new way because you will have always running a wave with 32SPs even when you need to use only one SP... before you needed only a wave of 16SPs running to use one SP.

So if the Scheduler is not smart (the magic needs to be here) to group waves of 32 instructions the perf/watt will decrease, the efficiency will decrease because it is easier to group waves of 16 than 32.

Wouldn't this be a non issue for gaming consoles? since ideally you want to use all SPs. Load power consumption will remain the same which is what matters the most on a console.
Only idle power consumption will be adversely affected

Of course there is side advantages too like the increase in Render Output units.

Increased SE's is another side effect correct?

yeah currently, and at CES actually, there was a lot of talk about a 9.2 TFLOPs PS5 which would make a lot of sense being on a smaller Navi chip.

I must have missed all that talk got any links? From what I understand CU's could be smaller and clock higher as well. At 7nm the 350mm2 console die budget should fit in all 64CUs (with some disabled for yields) with room to spare, so even with the improved performance 12TF should be even more doable

IF the rumors are true abut the SE's then we won't get a 12TF Navi this year

Correct but that doesn't influence console chips either way:
Pro released same year as RX470
X released same year as RX580

 

[ethomaz]

Wouldn't this be a non issue for gaming consoles? since ideally you want to use all SPs. Load power consumption will remain the same which is what matters the most on a console.
Only idle power consumption will be adversely affected

Ideally you want use all SP so the full flops power.

But that hardly happens in a game in any card (or any other processing)... you will always have units in idle... how you manage that is the one of the biggest advantage of nVidia over AMD.

Load power is a metric made using an app/game that suppose uses the max of the hardware but you know give more time to devs and they will find ways to use even more power from the hardware so it was not the max of the hardware at all.

Processing units not are fully processing things all the time... they have a lot of idle time and that affects power consumption like I explained.

 

[SonGoku]

Ideally you want use all SP so the full flops power.

But that hardly happens in a game in any card (or any other processing)... you will always have units in idle... how you manage that is the one of the biggest advantage of nVidia over AMD.

But load power consumption should remain the same irrespective of scheduler efficiency right?

 

[ethomaz]

But load power consumption should remain the same irrespective of scheduler efficiency right?

No.

Even in load power the GPU have units in idle... load power just mean a site get a game that they thinks use a lot of GPU for test all the cards with that game.

That is why Vega/Polaris breaks the load power consumption that most sites posts.... Polaris reaches over 300W power consumption in some specific cases when it is near it full power.

That is the same reason each site has it own load power consumption table that is vastly different from each other.

 

[Ellery]

Correct but that doesn't influence console chips either way:
Pro released same year as RX470
X released same year as RX580

Yup but we are not getting the Pro and X version of next gen consoles. We are getting the PS4 and Xbox One basically.
And those consoles had GPUs that were like the HD 7000 series cards which came like 1 1/2 year before the launch of those consoles.

Going by that logic you would've expected the PS4 and Xbox One to launch with an R9 290(X) card.

That is something important people need to remember. Yes 12-14 TF sounds juicy, but do people know what sounded juicy back in 2012 1+ year before the PS4 launched?
Yes 3-4 TF sounded juicy in 2012 because of the GTX 680 and HD 7970, but in the end we got a 1.8 and 1.3 TF console in late 2013.

Expecting a 14TF PS5 in 2020 is the same as having expected a 4 TF PS4 in 2013.

 

[SonGoku]

Yup but we are not getting the Pro and X version of next gen consoles. We are getting the PS4 and Xbox One basically.
And those consoles had GPUs that were like the HD 7000 series cards which came like 1 1/2 year before the launch of those consoles.

You are applying past events logic without actually looking at the technical facets. GCN hit a hard CU limit thus die size its not increasing
Pro and X made money from day one, they were cheaper to make than standard consoles in 2013

Going by that logic you would've expected the PS4 and Xbox One to launch with an R9 290(X) card.

290X and 7970 power consumption and die size was massive, both were not fit for a console APU

Expecting a 14TF PS5 in 2020 is the same as having expected a 4 TF PS4 in 2013.

Im expecting 12TF.

 

[ThaMonkeyClaw]

Yup but we are not getting the Pro and X version of next gen consoles. We are getting the PS4 and Xbox One basically.
And those consoles had GPUs that were like the HD 7000 series cards which came like 1 1/2 year before the launch of those consoles.

Going by that logic you would've expected the PS4 and Xbox One to launch with an R9 290(X) card.

That is something important people need to remember. Yes 12-14 TF sounds juicy, but do people know what sounded juicy back in 2012 1+ year before the PS4 launched?
Yes 3-4 TF sounded juicy in 2012 because of the GTX 680 and HD 7970, but in the end we got a 1.8 and 1.3 TF console in late 2013.

Expecting a 14TF PS5 in 2020 is the same as having expected a 4 TF PS4 in 2013.

8GB of GDDR5 sounds juicy in 2012 as well...and we got that! You can take my word on this, there is NO way that both Sony and Microsoft are going to launch a console under the 10.7 TF mark, I can pretty much guarantee that both of them will be coming out with something more powerful, if they do come out with something weaker than that then Stadia has already won...

I am going to keep my fingers crossed and hope they release the most powerful console they can to make it last as long as possible, I think if they took a small hit on the BOM cost for the new systems that they can definitely deliver that type of performance, I just hope they can figure out a good cooling solution so they don't sound like a jet fighter with its afterburners on!

 

[Fake]

Between 12~14

 

[Ellery]

You are applying past events logic without actually looking at the technical facets. GCN hit a hard CU limit thus die size its not increasing
Pro and X made money from day one, they were cheaper to make than standard consoles in 2013

290X and 7970 die size was massive and power consumption both were not fit for a console APU

Im expecting 12TF.

I guess 12TF is not impossible, but that would definitely be the "jaw-dropping-end" of my estimation.

I am still convinced that a lower price point is better than a high TF number for most consumers and also financially for Sony. Also factoring in additional costs besides the GPU part.
It is impossible to say. The price point will play a big role. My estimations would vary depending on if Sony wants $399 or $499.

For me it is basically 8-10TF is where I would say that is expected and the lower end of that would be a bit "disappointing" and 10TF would be exactly what I estimate given how double digits TF sounds way better than single digit even though it is just a mental thing.
Anything above 10TF would be sweet and close to 12TF would positively surprise me.
So somewhere between 8-12 TF is where people have their estimations and I think that is the reasonable range where we will see the PS5 fall into. Below that makes no sense and people (including me) would be devastated and above that I don't see it happening from a yield/price/heat/power standpoint even if Sony tried really hard and made the PS5 a big console with external PSU and huge cooling solution.

I can't say what role the 10.7TF Stadia is going to play and if Sony/MS cares about that number and if they are motivated to beat that or not.

The irony of it all is that I still have a 1080p TV and a default PS4 so I guess whatever the actual power will be in next gen it will be "bottlenecked" by the resolution of my Television

8GB of GDDR5 sounds juicy in 2012 as well...and we got that! You can take my word on this, there is NO way that both Sony and Microsoft are going to launch a console under the 10.7 TF mark, I can pretty much guarantee that both of them will be coming out with something more powerful, if they do come out with something weaker than that then Stadia has already won...

I am going to keep my fingers crossed and hope they release the most powerful console they can to make it last as long as possible, I think if they took a small hit on the BOM cost for the new systems that they can definitely deliver that type of performance, I just hope they can figure out a good cooling solution so they don't sound like a jet fighter with its afterburners on!

It definitely did and it basically was a last minute addition to the PS4. Otherwise it would've been a disaster, because it is much harder to work with lack of RAM compared to "slightly lower GPU power"

 

[SonGoku]

I am still convinced that a lower price point is better than a high TF number for most consumers and also financially for Sony. Also factoring in additional costs besides the GPU part.
It is impossible to say. The price point will play a big role. My estimations would vary depending on if Sony wants $399 or $499.

Even at $399 you are looking at 10-11TF
64 CU fits with room to spare on a console die budget. Say Sony chooses to disable 8CUs for yields, so we are left with 56CU total. At 1400Mhz you are looking at 10TF at 1680MHz, 11TF
They could even hit 12TF at $399 if they take a small loss for improved cooling.

Targeting "high" teraflops count before hitting diminishing returns won't affect cost that much since you are mostly playing with clocks which depend on cooling and yields. If other components are more expensive (ssd, ram etc) I have a feeling sony might target 13TF or close to it to make the $500 price point more attractive.

 

[rəddəM]

Just watching Love, Death and Robots - The Secret War. I wonder if this is the sorts of graphics we will be getting next-gen.

In terms of lighting Ray Traced GI, shadows, reflections and PBR materials should do the trick...
But in terms of geometry, destruction, physics and fabric/hair simulation... IDK, probably not.
We still need to play it at 60FPS.

 

[Ellery]

Even at $399 you are looking at 10-11TF
64 CU fits with room to spare on a console die budget. Say Sony chooses to disable 8CUs for yields, so we are left with 56CU total. At 1400Mhz you are looking at 10TF at 1680MHz, 11TF
They could even hit 12TF at $399 if they take a small loss for improved cooling.

Targeting "high" teraflops count before hitting diminishing returns won't affect cost that much since you are mostly playing with clocks which depend on cooling and yields. If other components are more expensive (ssd, ram etc) I have a feeling sony might target 13TF or close to it to make the $500 price point more attractive.

People better hurry if the PS5 comes in at 12TF, SSD, PS4BC and $399 because I am pre ordering so many at those speccs and price that people can expect a global PS5 shortage for decades.

 

[SonGoku]

The irony of it all is that I still have a 1080p TV and a default PS4 so I guess whatever the actual power will be in next gen it will be "bottlenecked" by the resolution of my Television

PS5 will downsample to 1080p, you'll get pristine image quality and next gen graphics, the only thing you will really be missing out on is HDR

People better hurry if the PS5 comes in at 12TF, SSD, PS4BC and $399 because I am pre ordering so many at those speccs and price that people can expect a global PS5 shortage for decades.

Do you think the average joe cares about TF? Genuine question there
I think specs are most important for early adopters which tend to be more technology versed, if they are satisfied then the positive reception carries over by word of mouth and the average joe just "knows" the console its a monster.

But yeah 12TF + 24GB GDDR6 at $399 would be megaton

 

[ThaMonkeyClaw]

It definitely did and it basically was a last minute addition to the PS4. Otherwise it would've been a disaster, because it is much harder to work with lack of RAM compared to "slightly lower GPU power"

That's very true on the RAM, but I also feel Sony went in very conserative for the PS4 because they were still recovering from the PS3 disaster and even with 8GB of GDDR5 back then they were still turning a profit on every console sold at launch. Now fast forward to 2020, they are financially doing a lot better this time around and can afford to take a hit at launch like in past years, so if they ate a little bit of the cost and they bump the launch price to $499 I can definitely see them launching an amazingly powerful system for the price, Cerny even hinted at this already:

PS5 price “will be appealing in light of its advanced feature set”

I really don't think he will short change us with an under-powered console this next gen, he knows better than anyone what needs to happen and I have faith in him.

 

[DeepEnigma]

That's very true on the RAM, but I also feel Sony went in very conserative for the PS4 because they were still recovering from the PS3 disaster and even with 8GB of GDDR5 back then they were still turning a profit on every console sold at launch. Now fast forward to 2020, they are financially doing a lot better this time around and can afford to take a hit at launch like in past years, so if they ate a little bit of the cost and they bump the launch price to $499 I can definitely see them launching an amazingly powerful system for the price, Cerny even hinted at this already:

PS5 price “will be appealing in light of its advanced feature set”

I really don't think he will short change us with an under-powered console this next gen, he knows better than anyone what needs to happen and I have faith in him.

They also mentioned in their financial report about a month or two ago that they invested over $1 Billion dollars in R&D for their next-gen console platform. So that is encouraging I think.

 

[pawel86ck]

I am still convinced that a lower price point is better than a high TF number for most consumers

Of course it depends where you live and how much you earn, but if people can afford 50-60$ games, then 100$ (499$) for more expensive console is nothing if you consider benefits for next 7 years. Even my phone was more expensive than 499$ LOL. I think all people with a job should be able to afford 100$ more expensive console, and if you cant than obviously buying PS5 would be a terrible idea even at 399$.

 

[ThaMonkeyClaw]

Of course it depends where you live and how much you earn, but if people can afford 50-60$ games, then 100$ (499$) for more expensive console is nothing if you consider benefits for next 7 years. Even my phone was more expensive than 499$ LOL. I think all people with a job should be able to afford 100$ more expensive console, and if you cant than obviously buying PS5 would be a terrible idea even at 399$.

Exactly! What I do hope they do with the PS4/PS5 is make all the games coming out on both systems a cross buy purchase, if they did that I think they would not only sell boat loads of PS5 systems but also PS4 systems for people who either can't afford a PS5 or are just not ready to make the jump yet.

 

[xool]

Yup but we are not getting the Pro and X version of next gen consoles. We are getting the PS4 and Xbox One basically.

[..]

That is something important people need to remember. Yes 12-14 TF sounds juicy, but do people know what sounded juicy back in 2012 1+ year before the PS4 launched?
Yes 3-4 TF sounded juicy in 2012 because of the GTX 680 and HD 7970, but in the end we got a 1.8 and 1.3 TF console in late 2013.

[..]

This is interesting and I sort of agree and disagree . We get a new kind of juicy every gen :

• for PS2 it was the ability to actually push a reasonable number of triangles (PSOne LaraCroft had 4 poly tits..)
• for 360 generation it was programmable shaders imo - deferred lighting, shadows, multiple light sources - a huge step in GPU programmability
• for PS4 generation memory increases really started to show (even though the relative increase was in-line with previous gens) - textures quality reached a plateau (plus PBR) is my takeway from this gen.
• For PS5/XBOXTWO gen I expected the SSD (minima load times) may be the big improvement - it remains to be seen how much of an impact ray-tracing will have - we'll see better Global Illumination, but probably will struggle performance wise. Possibly the Zen CPUs may bring back 60fps mainstream, or make physics/AI better - but I'm not counting on it

So yeah - expecting the same thing to increase every gen will lead to disappointment, as will expecting cutting edge tech - but each console gen has pushed something to cutting edge or beyond even for PC tech -and whilst previous gains are built upon, we don't see the same obvious subjective improvement in the same thing twice ..

The irony of it all is that I still have a 1080p TV and a default PS4 so I guess whatever the actual power will be in next gen it will be "bottlenecked" by the resolution of my Television

PS5 will downsample to 1080p, you'll get pristine image quality and next gen graphics, the only thing you will really be missing out on is HDR

I'm interested in this too - what resolutionare devs going to aim for, and will 1080p users see other advantages over 4k, (or just better oversampling) .. will 4k tv owners get a rough ride until another half-step-gen-upgrade eg PS5-Pro [edit -and will Sony/MS mandate specific resolution performance etc]

People better hurry if the PS5 comes in at 12TF, SSD, PS4BC and $399 because I am pre ordering so many at those speccs and price that people can expect a global PS5 shortage for decades.

It aint going to be $399 ..

 

[ThaMonkeyClaw]

This is interesting and I sort of agree and disagree . We get a new kind of juicy every gen :

• for PS2 it was the ability to actually push a reasonable number of triangles (PSOne LaraCroft had 4 poly tits..)
• for 360 generation it was programmable shaders imo - deferred lighting, shadows, multiple light sources - a huge step in GPU programmability
• for PS4 generation memory increases really started to show (even though the relative increase was in-line with previous gens) - textures quality reached a plateau (plus PBR) is my takeway from this gen.
• For PS5/XBOXTWO gen I expected the SSD (minima load times) may be the big improvement - it remains to be seen how much of an impact ray-tracing will have - we'll see better Global Illumination, but probably will struggle performance wise. Possibly the Zen CPUs may bring back 60fps mainstream, or make physics/AI better - but I'm not counting on it

So yeah - expecting the same thing to increase every gen will lead to disappointment, as will expecting cutting edge tech - but each console gen has pushed something to cutting edge or beyond even for PC tech -and whilst previous gains are built upon, we don't see the same obvious subjective improvement in the same thing twice ..

Never really thought about this, but it's true! I know the poly counts are pretty much getting to the point of diminishing returns so it makes total sense to focus on other areas that really needed improvement.

I'm interested in this too - what resolutionare devs going to aim for, and will 1080p users see other advantages over 4k, (or just better oversampling) .. will 4k tv owners get a rough ride until another half-step-gen-upgrade eg PS5-Pro [edit -and will Sony/MS mandate specific resolution performance etc]

I am pretty confident that we will not see ray tracing at 4k resolution, but I would love to see the option for either running a game at 4k resolution OR at 1080p with ray trace lighting, that would be a nice trade off for running something at a lower resolution, I think I would actually take the 1080p with ray tracing if they did this...

It aint going to be $399 ..

I 110% agree with this.

 

[joe_zazen]

PS5 will downsample to 1080p, you'll get pristine image quality and next gen graphics, the only thing you will really be missing out on is HDR

Do you think the average joe cares about TF? Genuine question there
I think specs are most important for early adopters which tend to be more technology versed, if they are satisfied then the positive reception carries over by word of mouth and the average joe just "knows" the console its a monster.

But yeah 12TF + 24GB GDDR6 at $399 would be megaton

Everyone has a calculus when purchasing an expensive product. Power will be one of the bullet points most will look at, in addition to price, games etc. They miht not care about TFs as a mathematical concept, but 99% will want to know which machine is more powerful if the prices are the same—assuming they arent citizens of an ecosystem.

 

[ethomaz]

I know people are starving for 4chan and Pastebin feakes.

/v/ - PS5 power is shockingly good - Video Games - 4chan

PS5 power is shockingly good - "/v/ - Video Games" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.

boards.4channel.org

Work at Ubisoft. Team is impressed and favouring PS5 dev kits over Anaconda’s. Cerny is a true genius and I’m glad you all will see results soon. Tests showing performance of 15-20% better than Anaconda at this time, though neither kits are final - they’re close to final though.

Team Xbox has a lot to learn when it comes to hardware. Tsk tsk

 

[xool]

I am pretty confident that we will not see ray tracing at 4k resolution, but I would love to see the option for either running a game at 4k resolution OR at 1080p with ray trace lighting, that would be a nice trade off for running something at a lower resolution, I think I would actually take the 1080p with ray tracing if they did this...

There's another pattern I noticed - that's "they promise this gen, deliver next" - the obvious example is PS3/360 gen being the "HD era" followed by upscaled sub 720p games .. now this gen we finally gen 1080p games .. (you can do similar for other gens - for PSone - it was "3d" - but so many games with sprites on pre-rendered background - fixed on PS2)

My gut feeling is that this gen's "didn't deliver" will be ray tracing - so they should nail it on PS6/XboxThree

 

[xool]

I know people are starving for 4chan and Pastebin feakes.

The only shocking thing is that anyone might take that one seriously.. [cringe]

Is "feake" a new word for "fake leak" ? - I like "fleek"

 

[ethomaz]

The only shocking thing is that anyone might take that one seriously.. [cringe]

Is "feake" a new word for "fake leak" ? - I like "fleek"

Is it fleek? I did not know... yeap I combined both lol

 

[FranXico]

I know people are starving for 4chan and Pastebin feakes.

Please, friend.

 

[Aceofspades]

I know people are starving for 4chan and Pastebin feakes.

/v/ - PS5 power is shockingly good - Video Games - 4chan

PS5 power is shockingly good - "/v/ - Video Games" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.

boards.4channel.org

We are neither starving nor hungry for fake shit . Actually the constant barrage of "obviously" fake leakes has deflated any enthusiasm of pursuing new info...Im waiting for legit news from either MS or Sony .

 

[DeepEnigma]

We are neither starving nor hungry for fake shit . Actually the constant barrage of "obviously" fake leakes has deflated any enthusiasm of pursuing new info...Im waiting for legit news from either MS or Sony .

Exactly how I feel as well with all the trolling on Pastebin, etc..

 

[ethomaz]

Exactly how I feel as well with all the trolling on Pastebin, etc..

That is why I posted a 4chan fleek that time

 

[Bogroll]

Yup but we are not getting the Pro and X version of next gen consoles. We are getting the PS4 and Xbox One basically.
And those consoles had GPUs that were like the HD 7000 series cards which came like 1 1/2 year before the launch of those consoles.

Going by that logic you would've expected the PS4 and Xbox One to launch with an R9 290(X) card.

That is something important people need to remember. Yes 12-14 TF sounds juicy, but do people know what sounded juicy back in 2012 1+ year before the PS4 launched?
Yes 3-4 TF sounded juicy in 2012 because of the GTX 680 and HD 7970, but in the end we got a 1.8 and 1.3 TF console in late 2013.

Expecting a 14TF PS5 in 2020 is the same as having expected a 4 TF PS4 in 2013.

Wasn't the Xbox 360 quite close to top of the range PC's when that launched. (i'm sure i read that somewhere and i'm no expert )

P.s i'm expecting betweeen 10-12 TF

 

[xool]

Wasn't the Xbox 360 quite close to top of the range PC's when that launched. (i'm sure i read that somewhere and i'm no expert )

I think the GPU was cutting edge, with features not available elsewhere for a couple months. Not sure about power (I think it was soon eclipsed). The 360's CPU though sounding impressive with 3 cores (6 threads) at 3.2GHz had a few gotchas like lack of speculative/outoforder execution which was standard by then in high end parts..

 

[ThaMonkeyClaw]

There's another pattern I noticed - that's "they promise this gen, deliver next" - the obvious example is PS3/360 gen being the "HD era" followed by upscaled sub 720p games .. now this gen we finally gen 1080p games .. (you can do similar for other gens - for PSone - it was "3d" - but so many games with sprites on pre-rendered background - fixed on PS2)

My gut feeling is that this gen's "didn't deliver" will be ray tracing - so they should nail it on PS6/XboxThree

I have noticed that as well, it is like they almost give you a taste of the new feature, but then the generation after that just knocks it out of the park. I am expecting that with the ray tracing, I don't see it being a standard in every game and if a game has it I feel it will be in VERY limited quantities! I still remember the ray tracing demo that was done on three PS3 consoles back in 2007!

 

[ethomaz]

Wasn't the Xbox 360 quite close to top of the range PC's when that launched. (i'm sure i read that somewhere and i'm no expert )

P.s i'm expecting betweeen 10-12 TF

2005 we have these graphic cards:

GeForce 7800 GTX (Jun 2005)
Radeon X1800 XL (Sep 2005)
Radeon X1900 (Jan 2006)

At that time the GPU power was not mensured with FLOPs... so there is no direct comparison.
But at time the Xenos was inferior in games to these GPUs.... it is just more advanced in terms of design.

Quake 4 never run at the same framerate/resultion than PC with these cards.

On Xbox 360 it runs at 1280x720 (no AA) unlocked 60fps (dips to 30fps).

 

[Bogroll]

2005 we have these graphic cards:

GeForce 7800 GTX (Jun 2005)
Radeon X1800 XL (Sep 2005)
Radeon X1900 (Jan 2006)

At that time the GPU power was not mensured with FLOPs... so there is no direct comparison.
But at time the Xenos was inferior in games to these GPUs.... it is just more advanced in terms of design.

Quake 4 never run at the same framerate/resultion than PC with these cards.

On Xbox 360 it runs at 1280x720 (no AA) unlocked 60fps (dips to 30fps).

All i can remember is that i had a Radeon card very nearly top of the range in early 2005(£30 cheaper than the very top card at the time) and playing the first Call of Duty on 360 and remembering it seemed smoother on 360 than my PC, but i surpose that could have been a number of things.

Yes i remember playing Quake 4 on 360, that ran really shit, surprised it ran as well as you said. I think that it may have been rushed as it was a launch title i think.

 

[Negotiator]

They'd have to cut the video capture feature (1GB+) and the greedy OS system (2GB+, back to then tens of MB on PS3) .. otherwise they'd have nearly no memory at all.

Plus if you half the chips (not half the capacity of the chips) your bus is now half width too..

Not true:

[Eurogamer\DF] Orbis Unmasked: what to expect from the next-gen PlayStation.

Can someone write something on "additional task-specific hardware" part? In lame man therms, wtf is it? Chip for doing miscellaneous stuff while preserving power in crucial areas. Sounds like they might use it for physics and other "grunt work" without taking away resources from the CPU...

www.neogaf.com

This is because when you have double the amount of chips, then electrical noise increases (which affects the eye diagram/signal reliability).

It's the same reason you get lower speed with 4 DIMMs vs 2 DIMMs on PCs.

 

[Insane Metal]

All I know is that both Sony and MS have been talking a lot about their next gen stuff lately. Microsoft will be at E3 and it's pretty obvious they will reveal at least something. Sony on the other hand won't be there... so what's going on? Maybe a small, surprise reveal around the same time?

 

[ethomaz]

All i can remember is that i had a Radeon card very nearly top of the range in early 2005(£30 cheaper than the very top card at the time) and playing the first Call of Duty on 360 and remembering it seemed smoother on 360 than my PC, but i surpose that could have been a number of things.

Really?

Maybe because on PC it has higher resolution and AA?

Call of Duty 2 X360 > 1280x720 60fps with drops to 30fps (The game always targeted a full 60fps output, but utilises a double-buffer v-sync set-up. There's a 16.7m render budget per frame, but consistently failing to hit that target causes a 33ms stutter - in effect, the game is momentarily running at 30fps, before returning to its target.)

PC

 

[Bogroll]

Really?

Maybe because on PC it has higher resolution and AA?

Call of Duty 2 X360 > 1280x720 60fps with drops to 30fps (The game always targeted a full 60fps output, but utilises a double-buffer v-sync set-up. There's a 16.7m render budget per frame, but consistently failing to hit that target causes a 33ms stutter - in effect, the game is momentarily running at 30fps, before returning to its target.)

PC

Like i said it could have a number of things and it was a long time ago.

 

[Ellery]

Wasn't the Xbox 360 quite close to top of the range PC's when that launched. (i'm sure i read that somewhere and i'm no expert )

P.s i'm expecting betweeen 10-12 TF

Yup, but things are different now. I am mostly bantering a bit and not completely serious, because obviously I have no idea what Sony and MS aim for.
And also we are still more than 1 year away from next gen console and things can change.
I am just being very conservative with my expectations because I don't think that pushing really hard is worth it, especially considering how bad AMD hardware scales when being pushed high. The thermals and power draw SKYROCKETS and I just don't see Sony buying super expensive top of the line 7nm chips to put into a mass market console.

So basically it comes also down to how good Navi really is, how high it clocks, what the thermals and power draw are and if it is possible to easily cool that in a console form factor.

For me it is all about the other things that the PS5 (and Navi aswell atleast the rumors) offers at this point. I am not that worried about raw TFLOPs, because it doesn't really mean that much. A good Navi architecture with 8TF would make me much more happy than hot and power hungry Vega with 12TF. (as long as Navi is architecturally superior to Vega that is)

That's very true on the RAM, but I also feel Sony went in very conserative for the PS4 because they were still recovering from the PS3 disaster and even with 8GB of GDDR5 back then they were still turning a profit on every console sold at launch. Now fast forward to 2020, they are financially doing a lot better this time around and can afford to take a hit at launch like in past years, so if they ate a little bit of the cost and they bump the launch price to $499 I can definitely see them launching an amazingly powerful system for the price, Cerny even hinted at this already:

PS5 price “will be appealing in light of its advanced feature set”

I really don't think he will short change us with an under-powered console this next gen, he knows better than anyone what needs to happen and I have faith in him.

Yes that is something I have been thinking about aswell.
Sony is in a perfect position. They definitely have money to "invest" into the Playstation and brand and I think they shouldn't try to make a super cheap console to manufacture but rather a high build quality console, with good components and take a small loss on it.
They will make much more from PSN and services and all that digital stuff anyways. (and of course physical game sales with the 30% cut they take).
Sony should leverage their lead and extend it.

As to how much RAM is the sweet spot I really can't say. I feel like between 2012 and 2017 the RAM usage EXPLODED and all those 2GB cards and 4GB PCs are basically useless nowadays.
But I have no idea if Sony can get away with 16GB for games or if they need 20/24. Impossible to say.

In general of course I always "hope" for more, but I know that the perfect console will never exist and there will always be better hardware and in the end Sony and the devs have to deal with what they got and they will make all our jaws drop either way.

PS5 will downsample to 1080p, you'll get pristine image quality and next gen graphics, the only thing you will really be missing out on is HDR

Do you think the average joe cares about TF? Genuine question there
I think specs are most important for early adopters which tend to be more technology versed, if they are satisfied then the positive reception carries over by word of mouth and the average joe just "knows" the console its a monster.

But yeah 12TF + 24GB GDDR6 at $399 would be megaton

I think that many websites will hail the PS5 if it comes in at 12TF as an absolute beast and monster and that mindset will jump onto the mass market customers.
Especially the comparison between PS5 and XboxNext will be "important". So I guess many customers will be confronted with it around the release time and what leads up to.
But I don't think that it matters much. Unless Sony screws up the PS5 will outsell the XboxNext even if it is like 40% slower, because of brand loyalty, Japan and Europe.
It also looks like Sony is doing exactly (atleast what I think) is right with the PS5. Backwards Compatability, ultra fast SSD, better hardware and now the only 2 remaining checkmarks imho are great AAA games and pricepoint.
Even most people that know what TF are and know roughly how they translate to gaming performance don't even know what that would actually mean (me included. For me there are just kind of a very vague performance number that is only really good for comparing GPUs with the same architecture)

This is interesting and I sort of agree and disagree . We get a new kind of juicy every gen :

• for PS2 it was the ability to actually push a reasonable number of triangles (PSOne LaraCroft had 4 poly tits..)
• for 360 generation it was programmable shaders imo - deferred lighting, shadows, multiple light sources - a huge step in GPU programmability
• for PS4 generation memory increases really started to show (even though the relative increase was in-line with previous gens) - textures quality reached a plateau (plus PBR) is my takeway from this gen.
• For PS5/XBOXTWO gen I expected the SSD (minima load times) may be the big improvement - it remains to be seen how much of an impact ray-tracing will have - we'll see better Global Illumination, but probably will struggle performance wise. Possibly the Zen CPUs may bring back 60fps mainstream, or make physics/AI better - but I'm not counting on it

So yeah - expecting the same thing to increase every gen will lead to disappointment, as will expecting cutting edge tech - but each console gen has pushed something to cutting edge or beyond even for PC tech -and whilst previous gains are built upon, we don't see the same obvious subjective improvement in the same thing twice ..

It aint going to be $399 ..

In the end it will be for the devs to decide what they do with the resources they have at hand. I think the PS5 will be a very harmonic system with no real "obvious" bottlenecks, but rather a console that is pretty balance. I expect to see more options in games including FoV and fps/graphics settings like we have seen a couple of games trying to do 30fps better graphics/60fps worse graphics (or lower resolution).

I mean I guess it could be $399, but it certainly sounds like Mark Cerny wants us to expect a higher price point.
499$ sounds like the exact spot they will land on given what Shawn Layden said about the PS3 price and how that was a big mistake.

Considering inflation, cost of labor etc. then $499 in 2020 is not that much of a price increase over $399 in 2013. Maybe like $70 or so, but I think $499 is still fine for a console even though, like I said earlier in this thread, I think the $399 route + taking a loss and selling more consoles for a bigger consumer installbase is the better way to go.

 

[SonGoku]

There's another pattern I noticed - that's "they promise this gen, deliver next" - the obvious example is PS3/360 gen being the "HD era" followed by upscaled sub 720p games .. now this gen we finally gen 1080p games .. (you can do similar for other gens - for PSone - it was "3d" - but so many games with sprites on pre-rendered background - fixed on PS2)

My gut feeling is that this gen's "didn't deliver" will be ray tracing - so they should nail it on PS6/XboxThree

Indeed, even if we get 13TF on consoles 4k alone is a huge gpu resource hog, RT use this gen will be very limited.

 

[Evilms]

64.7% of Famitsu Readers Plan to Buy a PS5; 32.2% Is Undecided According to Survey

Today's issue of Weekly Famitsu included the results of a survey among the popular magazine's readers, which inquired on their purchasing intentions and

twinfinite.net

 

[ResilientBanana]

Indeed, even if we get 13TF on consoles 4k alone is a huge gpu resource hog, RT use this gen will be very limited.

I’d prefer 1440p with greater fidelity and 60fps

 

[SonGoku]

I’d prefer 1440p with greater fidelity and 60fps

Same, I hope they go with that and use reconstruction techniques to upscale

 

[LordOfChaos]

I have noticed that as well, it is like they almost give you a taste of the new feature, but then the generation after that just knocks it out of the park. I am expecting that with the ray tracing, I don't see it being a standard in every game and if a game has it I feel it will be in VERY limited quantities! I still remember the ray tracing demo that was done on three PS3 consoles back in 2007!

It's funny that those and the USAF Cell cluster projects were all over a gigabit Ethernet connection, looking back now. That's only 125MB/s without accounting for overheads. We wouldn't run the most turdey external graphics over that speed now lol. Maybe it was just in line with 2005 hardware but thinking back I wonder if the cluster was bottlenecked by that, 10 gig was already available for 3 years.

What a weird time. What a weird processor. Kind of makes me wish for a high speed interconnect and Other OS support again, consoles being sold near at cost or at a loss they make for great perf/$ as compute parts at launch.

 

[xool]

What a weird time. What a weird processor. Kind of makes me wish for a high speed interconnect and Other OS support again, consoles being sold near at cost or at a loss they make for great perf/$ as compute parts at launch.

I say this at every opportunity - MS is leaving money on the table not selling Win10 for Xbox.

 

[SonGoku]

 

[xool]

Well it's been 4 weeks since that tweet...