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It seems that The Initiative was set up to poach talent from PlayStation.

nikolino840

Member
Xbox needs games desperately, if you lack talent just buy someone who has
You have to buy them...talented leads don't grow on trees like apples or Bananas..

A company can shape and form a young programmer or designer but Need years of work (and licking asses) to became a leads of a department or to leading a team in the software houses
 
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Let's say you wanted to change job and then some recruiter contacted you on Linkedin, wouldn't you negotiate an higher hourly rate? some more vacation days? You'd be - not very bright - to not take advantage of the opportunity to kill two birds with one stoke (you would also get bonus points at home with the GF if you came back home telling her: I got this new job, it seems very interesting AND we will be able to go on vacation in a nicer hotel next year).

That's a very American view on the workplace.

Would I enter negotiations to try and levy a higher salary? Of course, and I do. But I have never once seen a role that offers more money and thought "i'm leaving my current position for more money" The wage is the wage. The environment, job, team and location are what really matters
 
If I can get a new, modern Crimson Skies, idgaf what underhanded shit MS had to do to make it.

Absolutely--at this point I don't care if it's just AA (and honestly that would work fine).

However, and I post this all the time for no good reason, I would love a 4 player coop campaign, maybe it's fighting off the British (since maybe in that universe they are still the massive empire they were historically) and as for multiplayer, add a plane builder like Crossout, just make it a little bit easier to use/have some prebuilt choices/etc. I would honestly pay $100 for that game.
 
Why is Sony being fucked good for next gen?

Microsoft shit the bed this gen and it has led to stagnation across the board vs 360/ps3 days where both companies went in hard and gamers were rewarded with amazing experiences.

I'll never understand not wanting competition. bunch of pussy-arse commies if you ask me
Monopolies are more an American thing qt this point, but yeah, wishing for the demise of competition is dumb. Companies with monopolies take advantage of it (duh), look no further than comcast.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
You have to buy them...talented leads don't grow on trees like apples or Bananas..

A company can shape and form a young programmer or designer but Need years of work (and licking asses) to became a leads of a department or to leading a team in the software houses

Not really. A lead is just a senior with a bunch of additional tasks on their plate. In most cases the pay isn't even greater, its just a nice title to pad your resume with.

The difference maker in most instances is overall studio culture, which is a mixture of intangibles and simply cannot be constructed by design. Hiring a team of "all-stars" is risky because it invites a lot of ego into the mix, which is far from desirable. Technical competence or even excellence is not hard to come by, utilizing those skilled individuals on the other hand is. Especially when a lot of corporate regulations, standards and practices are involved.
 

pr0cs

Member
It's just such a strange thing to be concerned about. What if the initiative makes an absolutely stellar game that becomes must play? You'll still deprive yourself because it's a Microsoft product?
What if the changes at the original houses actually improves their output and in the end better games, would you still avoid the games just to spite the changes?
Games development being so artistically motivated NEEDS turnover to stay fresh and hungry.
 

isual

Member
morality aside, there is nothing wrong with this.

if people feel this is morally wrong, OK. but for the people that jumped ship, they got more $ and better incentives to do so.

so what about morality. people moved on because it was in their best interest.

if you 'feel' that this isn't right; i don't give two squats about your feelings. soldier up.
 
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Thabass

Member
Doesn’t mean it should be tolerated or not frowned upon in our (gamers) industry.

What? These developers are getting better paying jobs because of their hard work. Also, if they agree to leave, that's not really poaching.

This is the same logic that wrestling fans had when WCW was "stealing" WWE talent when it was the talent that wanted better opportunities and better pay.
 

nikolino840

Member
Not really. A lead is just a senior with a bunch of additional tasks on their plate. In most cases the pay isn't even greater, its just a nice title to pad your resume with.

The difference maker in most instances is overall studio culture, which is a mixture of intangibles and simply cannot be constructed by design. Hiring a team of "all-stars" is risky because it invites a lot of ego into the mix, which is far from desirable. Technical competence or even excellence is not hard to come by, utilizing those skilled individuals on the other hand is. Especially when a lot of corporate regulations, standards and practices are involved.
I don't know much of software houses and their leads but i don't think Is so different with other works and Engineers
 

thelastword

Banned
OP, I say let them go, whoever wants to leave, let them.......Barlog left Sony and he is back home.... Jaffe has never done anything of worth from the time he left Sony.....Jade Raymond left Ubisoft to lead a Studio, which was hyped to kingdom come that ultimately produced Zilch.....

A few persons leaving Sony for their own interests means little to nothing, that does not guarantee that MS will have Sony Calibur games, because Sony's management of their studios is on a whole other tier, the way they allow their studios to open their wings and give them their creative freedom is second to none..... Sony does not come in and say,... give me a couple of MP focused games...or tier C studios just bought, churn me a couple of game pass games every 3 months..... You leave Sony and you go to MS, but remember, you're now working under MS and their directors, you have to follow their vision, not that of Barlog, Druckmann, Kaz anymore.......So you can't just go to MS and make Sony styled games, you have to do whatever it is the MS uppers and Gallagher asks you to do.....

BTW, what great game has Gallagher ever produced from the ground up? How many Goty games and 90+ games has he produced?

I say let them go, everyone who wants to go..... Reminds me of the exodus from GAF, look what's happening, they're all coming back anyway....... They will learn the hard way what's best for them....
 
People only leave a workplace for another if pay, benefits and personal enjoyment is better elsewhere.

When you start a new studio like the Initiative, it's unproven. So you are making risky career moves by moving from an established studio to go somewhere else. Which makes me think that their previous places of work wasn't that great when it came to pay, benefits, hours, management and/or fulfillment.
As a worker, you are not married to the company. Just like they can let you go, you have every right to leave if someone else wants to give you a better deal. There is nothing scummy about that.


Seattle is a good example. When Amazon Game Studios started mass hiring, they got top talent from all over the city. That's great. Amazon is burning money, one of their games have already been cancelled, less senior people are moving up at the previous companies. It's great.

Games are a massive collaborate effort. You can snatch talent from other places, but that in itself doesn't mean anything. Over the years we have had many "dream teams" that didn't produce anything of value. Look at 343 Industries - It was a collection of some of the best developers in the world. Didn't mean they were able to make a Halo that topped the OG games. That shit doesn't matter.

Making games takes hundreds of peoples, and there is a lot of things to go into making games besides the talent of the people. Just think about logistics, sound preproduction like picking the right engine and tools before you even start production. That lead design engineer who decided on the workflow for how they were gonna deliver content for a project 3-4 years down the line. That correct decision right there is probably worth more than a gazillion top talented designers.
With Destiny, Bungie had activision throw endless amounts of money after them to get the best people to do whatever it took to wipe the world with Destiny. Who gives a shit? Talented devs cannot do shit with spaghetti code. Everything takes forever. You go nowhere but at snails pace. Someone fucked up before it even began and the rest of the games life will suffer for it. It happened to the Old Republic too. Bioware Austin was a star-team of top MMO Devs and star developers from top studios from all over. Couldn't do shit when they were hammered by that terrible HeroEngine. That was a garbage scam, and it fucked up what could have been an incredible game.



Also, you think about what it is like working in software development. Most developers will never work on anything of significance. Most developers will never ship a game that anybody has heard about. Most devs work on bottom-tier iOS games that ADHD kids are mass downloading on mommys apple credit card when they are not watching. Most developers would saw off their leg to have a credit on a game like God of War.

So you have to ask yourself what would make those devs at Santa Monica, decide to jump ship to a unknown upstart. Working in AAA can be a bitch. A never-ending crunch of fuck. Its not uncommon for workers lives to fall to pieces- Particularly their marriages and relationships because they are never home. And on these games you are expected to be in crunch for years. I dont know if it was like that on GoW, but I wouldnt be surprised if it was. There is a reason why Cliffy B, Jaffe and many other top designers jumped out of that even though they could have kept staying in the spotlight making the top games. Because it fucking sucks the life out on most people. And that is even more so for non-leads who don't even really get the recognition.

So if a competing studio offer you better hours, benefits and pay. And more vacation. Shit man. Take that shit. If Amazon or Microsoft or Apple have money to burn and you will be treated nicer? Thats not being scummy. Thats putting value on workers health and well being. And we need that in software development regardless of where you are. Everyone deserves to be treated better. QA, Design, Support, Programming, whatever. These major teams can sometimes shove people together like cattle, and just work people into a pulp. Unreasonable budgets, poor management, bad deadlines, stupid preliminary decisions that fuck up the project long term. These are the things that make life hard for people on the ground.
If Sony values their worker (or any other studio) they will pay them better. They will give them better hours. They will make sure they are less stressed. They can start by hiring the appropriate amount of people and stop "expecting" people to work an absurd amount of hours. Particularly because the productivity of workers goes to shit after a while. So it doesn't even make sense.
 

Poop!

Member
Fun fact, when Sony started in the gaming business they created their North American headquarters only one freeway exit from the then headquarters of Sega of America. Sony then poached most of the Sega employees to launch the original Playstation.
 
That's a very American view on the workplace.

Would I enter negotiations to try and levy a higher salary? Of course, and I do. But I have never once seen a role that offers more money and thought "i'm leaving my current position for more money" The wage is the wage. The environment, job, team and location are what really matters
Sure, but who's to say the other team isn't as good or better? I had discussions with an ex colleague about this, he wanted to stick around to keep having his lunches with us (we did have a great time) while he had a much more interesting offer elsewhere, and he was highly frustrated with how the company was treating him. I told him what I will tell you: in the current job market don't expect to keep a job for too long, don't go thinking for a minute that the owner of the company will keep you around one more minute if he doesn't need your skills, or if something comes up with his kids and he needs the money for something else etc. You'll be much happier if you don't get overly attached to your overlord employer.

I find it's a borderline slave mentality to give any kind of loyalty to an employer, they get your time away from what's important to you in exchange for money, all the better if they are nice to you (it helps retention for sure), but they should also be willing to compensate you as you should.

And yet, I was able to negotiate better salaries than what were offered a few times, but in order to do this you must have some leverage (i.e. you must be willing to leave if you don't like the answer, so save money so you aren't overli attached to a specific job, this buys you freedom and financial security).
 

Otterz4Life

Member
Fun fact, when Sony started in the gaming business they created their North American headquarters only one freeway exit from the then headquarters of Sega of America. Sony then poached most of the Sega employees to launch the original Playstation.
That’s some sinister, underhanded bullshit right there. Karma is a bitch.

What’s good for the goose, etc...
 
That's a very American view on the workplace.

Would I enter negotiations to try and levy a higher salary? Of course, and I do. But I have never once seen a role that offers more money and thought "i'm leaving my current position for more money" The wage is the wage. The environment, job, team and location are what really matters
I'd wager that you are a very small minority. I'd quit my well paying job right now on the spot if another job was hiring at a higher salary and potentially more benefits.
 
Xbox needs games desperately, if you lack talent just buy someone who has
But do they? Over the past 2 years (roughly) or so we have gotten Sea of Thieves, State of Decay 2, Ashen, Below, Cuphead, Crackdown 3, Forza Horizon 4, Halo Wars 2, Forza 7, and Void Bastards. That also doesn't include the miraculous turnaround of TMCC during the same span. Averaging that out is almost a new game every 2-3 months. That list doesn't include already released and pretty significant titles like Ori and the Blind Forest, Sunset Overdrive, Quantum Break and Killer Instinct. Those are bread and butter games and have nothing to do with Halo, Gears or Forza. Not to mention that the replay value of most Xbox multiplayer games dwarfs that of anything Sony puts out.
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
But do they? Over the past 2 years (roughly) or so we have gotten Sea of Thieves, State of Decay 2, Ashen, Below, Cuphead, Crackdown 3, Forza Horizon 4, Halo Wars 2, Forza 7, and Void Bastards. That also doesn't include the miraculous turnaround of TMCC during the same span. Averaging that out is almost a new game every 2-3 months. That list doesn't include already released and pretty significant titles like Ori and the Blind Forest, Sunset Overdrive, Quantum Break and Killer Instinct. Those are bread and butter games and have nothing to do with Halo, Gears or Forza. Not to mention that the replay value of most Xbox multiplayer games dwarfs that of anything Sony puts out.

Yes, they do. Majority of those games aren't selling consoles. They just don't need games, they need big games that will attract customers to their service\console.

QB, CD3, HW2, Forza7, State of Decay 2, Ashen and Below aren't going to cut it.

They need system sellers outside Gears, Forza and Horizon.
 

A.Romero

Member
Awesome. In my opinion this is why the gaming industry in the West has advanced so much faster than the Japanese one. People staying and working in a place for their whole career impedes learning new stuff and the spread of best practices and knowledge in general.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
This is a non issue. If you want to produce games as good as your competition, then you need to acquire the talent that gets you there.

This is a common occurrence in all directions.
 

CeeJay

Member
The Initiative offer a better working environment, SSM need to step it up, the circle of life.
 
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Journey

Banned
That’s some sinister, underhanded bullshit right there. Karma is a bitch.

What’s good for the goose, etc...


You think poaching developers is sinister? how about Sony poaching Sega of America's 2nd in command (Steve Race) that's like Sony poaching Phil Spencer.
 
I'd wager that you are a very small minority. I'd quit my well paying job right now on the spot if another job was hiring at a higher salary and potentially more benefits.
I'm not a slave to money tbh. If I have to cut back here or there so that I have more money, more freedom and a better work life balance, then so be it.

Saying that im currently earning more than I ever have, while doing the easiest job I've done, while only working 12 days a month...
 

Bernkastel

Ask me about my fanboy energy!
They actually poached many from other studios like Crystal Dynamics, Rockstar and Respawn. You make it seem like Sony devs were created in an incubation centre hatched by Kutaragi. If you look at their LinkedIn profile, you will see that most of them have been poached by Sony from other studios.
Seriously, most of their hires were from Crystal Dynamics rather than Sony.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Xbox needs games desperately, if you lack talent just buy someone who has
Sounds like Sony. Aside from God of War and GT, all their key hits are from studios they bought or partnership deals with third party devs (like QD and Insomniac):

- Naughty Dog
- Guerrilla Games
- Sucker Punch
- Media Molecule
- Evolution Studios (disbanded)

A big part of their original success during Playstation 1 was Sony buying Psygnosis.

 
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