TranscendentDee
Member
In the video he still addresses the consoles by their code name so I think he changed the title of the video after the official name was revealed. All the other info may be close to accurate though.
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In the video he still addresses the consoles by their code name so I think he changed the title of the video after the official name was revealed. All the other info may be close to accurate though.
TeamGhobad
Banned
would never happen. these consoles are 499 sold at a (small) loss.
Pyramid Song
Member
Agree
Tommy Fisher
Banned
$599 with $100 loss most likely.
Ar¢tos
Member
I was browsing Sony patents regarding memory controllers (only between 2014-2015, they have tons of them) and found several regarding memory controllers and memory controller functions. One describes a custom controller that can manage Ram, Reram and NAND (fits that rumor of nand chips soldered using normal ram as cache) and several regarding systems to improve access time and I/O performance on a custom controller using Reram or NAND as storage.
Could they be really using ReRam together with NAND to make a difference over pcie4 SSDs?
Sounds a bit "CELL"-crazy like.. Is Reram even in mass production?
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Wouldn't Sony using HBM2 make it more difficult for them to scale down component costs over time? HBM2 proliferation in the memory market is nowhere near the level of GDDR6, and if Sony are the only ones really using it at mass volumes it won't be enough to bring costs down over time comparative to GDDR6 which has all three of the big memory manufacturers (Samsung, Micron, SK Hynix) onboard.
Also HBM2 requires thicc buses, but there were other people in this thread saying wider buses make it harder to scale down production components over time due to increasing the size of the silicon area. Sony's strategy with PS4, at least a big part of it, was ensuring they went with components that could easily scale down in cost over time and either had mass industry support or would in a little bit of time. That includes memory. MS, in terms of memory, went with a cheap approach last gen that didn't factor DDR3 being phased out for DDR4, which came to market only a few months after XBO released.
Sony's PS4 strategy revolved around using components and technologies that were either mature and/or would become staples in the consumer market in a small bit of time. There aren't any trends for HBM2 becoming a staple in consumer electronics for the next few years, AFAIK, if ever. There's been a couple of GPU cards with it and Intel did a (very short-lived) line of processors with integrated graphics using HBM, but that's it. I don't want Sony taking potentially another Cell type of move with PS5, that's all.
Easily possible, and it's not on CELL levels of crazy at all. Data center and enterprise markets have been using things like NVDIMM and adjacent tech for fast storage since the start of the decade. There are two types of ReRAM: embedded (the fastest available, but very expensive and capacities much smaller), and storage-type. Companies like Crossbar-Inc provide licenses for their ReRAM IP in both types; understandably the storage-class type is a bit slower but also much more affordable (relatively speaking) and in much larger capacities.
Just going off their specifications, storage-class ReRAM offers page-addressable read, plus byte and bit-addressable writes and true random access. So in that fashion it's very much like DRAM or for better comparison Intel's Optane memory, but has potential to scale down more efficiently in process size. That's also better than NAND, which doesn't have byte (or bit)-addressable write capabilities.
ReRAM of storage-class type can provide speeds of up to 25.6 GB/s; I believe Crossbar's implementation can work over a PCIe bus, but I think it can also be tied to a DRAM controller (such as a DDR3 memory controller) if you'd like to use it closer to DRAM style. The main advantage it'd have over conventional DRAM though is in being non-volatile, so data is stored even when powered off, and it has much better P/E cycle ratings than almost all NAND memory types besides SLC (where I believe it ties, but it could be slightly better than that), and lower power consumption for writes than NAND across the board.
The only potential issue would be price; Intel sells Optane Persistent Memory (DRAM-style Optane memory) for server markets who already pay a premium anyway and therefore isn't the best comparison, but 128GB of Optane PM costs $842, or $6.57 per GB. Again though, that is sold to server and data center markets at profit, and we can assume Intel is getting at least a 2x profit for each GB, so production cost per GB is likely at most $3.20.
If you go by that amount, Sony would have to shell out $210.50 for 64GB of ReRAM. However, we can assume that thanks to the volume they'd be using it in and (potentially) doing at least some of the manufacturing in-house, ReRAM per GB could probably only cost them closer to $1.87 to manufacture (assuming a 3.5x reduction on the per GB cost of Intel's DC Optane Persistent Memory). At that price, 64GB could only cost them about $120 to manufacture. At 96GB, that cost would rise to $180.42.
Assuming they'd be selling the PS5 at $499 and at a slight loss, that could easily fit within their BOM. A MSRP $399 PS5 would be pushing their bleed on each system sold quite higher (assuming they'd be selling at a loss), though, and that'd likely push them down closer to 64GB of ReRAM (IF they're using ReRAM at all; I'm just trying to figure where this benefits them pricing-wise).
For the performance a relatively fast pool of 96GB ReRAM cache could bring, in addition to 16-20GB of GDDR6 (I highly doubt they're using HBM2, for various reasons), that could be delivered pretty well in a reasonable BOM and push near that 16x memory increase some people seem to be obsessed about in order to define a true next-gen leap
The other question though is...is Microsoft doing anything similar? We honestly don't know, but I don't see why they couldn't work something out with Intel and their Optane Memory, since that is already seeing use in the PC space. It would also give Intel another partner to manufacture for, potentially key considering Micron ended their development on 3D Xpoint (the PCM memory analogous to Intel's Optane, as they essentially co-developed the tech together and spun it off into their own respective product lines) earlier this year (if not back in late 2018).
Personally, I hope they're BOTH taking this type of approach, because that will open up some great opportunities for next-gen gaming development and also raises the baseline for console-level gaming on PC that much more (meaning the higher-end PC specs will get utilized and pushed further themselves). It's a win-win for everybody.
Also HBM2 requires thicc buses, but there were other people in this thread saying wider buses make it harder to scale down production components over time due to increasing the size of the silicon area. Sony's strategy with PS4, at least a big part of it, was ensuring they went with components that could easily scale down in cost over time and either had mass industry support or would in a little bit of time. That includes memory. MS, in terms of memory, went with a cheap approach last gen that didn't factor DDR3 being phased out for DDR4, which came to market only a few months after XBO released.
Sony's PS4 strategy revolved around using components and technologies that were either mature and/or would become staples in the consumer market in a small bit of time. There aren't any trends for HBM2 becoming a staple in consumer electronics for the next few years, AFAIK, if ever. There's been a couple of GPU cards with it and Intel did a (very short-lived) line of processors with integrated graphics using HBM, but that's it. I don't want Sony taking potentially another Cell type of move with PS5, that's all.
Easily possible, and it's not on CELL levels of crazy at all. Data center and enterprise markets have been using things like NVDIMM and adjacent tech for fast storage since the start of the decade. There are two types of ReRAM: embedded (the fastest available, but very expensive and capacities much smaller), and storage-type. Companies like Crossbar-Inc provide licenses for their ReRAM IP in both types; understandably the storage-class type is a bit slower but also much more affordable (relatively speaking) and in much larger capacities.
Just going off their specifications, storage-class ReRAM offers page-addressable read, plus byte and bit-addressable writes and true random access. So in that fashion it's very much like DRAM or for better comparison Intel's Optane memory, but has potential to scale down more efficiently in process size. That's also better than NAND, which doesn't have byte (or bit)-addressable write capabilities.
ReRAM of storage-class type can provide speeds of up to 25.6 GB/s; I believe Crossbar's implementation can work over a PCIe bus, but I think it can also be tied to a DRAM controller (such as a DDR3 memory controller) if you'd like to use it closer to DRAM style. The main advantage it'd have over conventional DRAM though is in being non-volatile, so data is stored even when powered off, and it has much better P/E cycle ratings than almost all NAND memory types besides SLC (where I believe it ties, but it could be slightly better than that), and lower power consumption for writes than NAND across the board.
The only potential issue would be price; Intel sells Optane Persistent Memory (DRAM-style Optane memory) for server markets who already pay a premium anyway and therefore isn't the best comparison, but 128GB of Optane PM costs $842, or $6.57 per GB. Again though, that is sold to server and data center markets at profit, and we can assume Intel is getting at least a 2x profit for each GB, so production cost per GB is likely at most $3.20.
If you go by that amount, Sony would have to shell out $210.50 for 64GB of ReRAM. However, we can assume that thanks to the volume they'd be using it in and (potentially) doing at least some of the manufacturing in-house, ReRAM per GB could probably only cost them closer to $1.87 to manufacture (assuming a 3.5x reduction on the per GB cost of Intel's DC Optane Persistent Memory). At that price, 64GB could only cost them about $120 to manufacture. At 96GB, that cost would rise to $180.42.
Assuming they'd be selling the PS5 at $499 and at a slight loss, that could easily fit within their BOM. A MSRP $399 PS5 would be pushing their bleed on each system sold quite higher (assuming they'd be selling at a loss), though, and that'd likely push them down closer to 64GB of ReRAM (IF they're using ReRAM at all; I'm just trying to figure where this benefits them pricing-wise).
For the performance a relatively fast pool of 96GB ReRAM cache could bring, in addition to 16-20GB of GDDR6 (I highly doubt they're using HBM2, for various reasons), that could be delivered pretty well in a reasonable BOM and push near that 16x memory increase some people seem to be obsessed about in order to define a true next-gen leap
The other question though is...is Microsoft doing anything similar? We honestly don't know, but I don't see why they couldn't work something out with Intel and their Optane Memory, since that is already seeing use in the PC space. It would also give Intel another partner to manufacture for, potentially key considering Micron ended their development on 3D Xpoint (the PCM memory analogous to Intel's Optane, as they essentially co-developed the tech together and spun it off into their own respective product lines) earlier this year (if not back in late 2018).
Personally, I hope they're BOTH taking this type of approach, because that will open up some great opportunities for next-gen gaming development and also raises the baseline for console-level gaming on PC that much more (meaning the higher-end PC specs will get utilized and pushed further themselves). It's a win-win for everybody.
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sonomamashine
Member
I'm talking about new arch rdna2, AMD offers it to both and each of them make their own custom adjustements, why would MS pick 1,5RDNA & leave 2,0rdna to Sony ? because Sony are willing to pay and not Ms ?
It wouldnt be, not happening.
I posted before that this (HBM) must be someones secret sauce, it makes sense.
You just burned you BS aka insider cover right there.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
No chance any console goes $599 IMO. Especially Sony for obvious reason. Did you see the D.I.C.E keynote from Shawn Layden back in February where he shared their "hubris" moment about PS3 price (among all the other issues)?
DJ12
Member
Don't mind me I remembered there were three Navi generations but I probably remembered the ray tracing slide they showed which had "next gen" RDNA in the middle.
Only two RDNA generations have been spoken about, so I guess "next gen" is RDNA 2.
Tommy Fisher
Banned
No one knows about the price yet except sony's HQ, but based on specs i believe actual price gonna be $599 with $100 loss. $499 retail price.
CameFromNearFuture
Banned
BOTH Will be equivalent on Ray tracing aspect
Aceofspades
Banned
There is not a single advantage to using GDDR6 over HBM except being cheaper. also PS5 can be the trigger to HBM2/3 being more used in consumer products and can bring its price down.
Tommy Fisher
Banned
You know nothing
DJ12
Member
Only one?
Not one of them has said anything that a random person couldn't just claim. I guess the one guy with the date could turn out to be legit, however previous rumours have said the event will be on the 12th, a Wednesday, the same day of the week the PS4 was "revealed" so a Thursday seems unlikely.
CameFromNearFuture
Banned
You know nothing
They are aiming for different strategy and solutions but the final real world results wont show any significant difference specially on a mulitplatform level.
Dont set expectations too high. I am the one who people need to listen to.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Well that wasn't clear at all! In any case, even at $499 it contradicts what Jim Ryan has said. It would also mean a price quite a bit above the PS3 UK launch price of £425 (close to £499 going by current exchange rates). PS4 was £349....
I will wait and see about this.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Cheaper, more proliferation within consumer markets meaning better scalability, and...
ALWAYS remember; NO technology has 100% upsides. There will ALWAYS be tradeoffs (even beyond price) to consider, thinking otherwise is foolish.
LordOfChaos
Member
Mods verifying insiders is kind of standard practice around here and why gaf keeps a crew of verified insiders while other forums can get full of "My uncle from Nintendo".
Verify or don't "leak", I say, otherwise any old person can take an educated guess risking nothing but a less than week old account and look like an insider if they hit it right. What exactly is the issue with verifying?
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sonomamashine
Member
Fake
Member
No. Just about Xbox series X. Benji said other days at the possibility of > or - $500.
Von Hugh
Member
My bet is on almost all being fake. Especially the guy below your reply.
" I am the one who people need to listen to." That is starting to sound someone from a cult or an asylum.
DJ12
Member
Battle of the new "leakers", none wishing to get their sources verified by the mods, yet both disagreeing, then wording the disagreement to look like they said the same thing.
You've basically just confirmed one is weaker than the other if you are a legit insider, as multiplatform games will aim for the LCD and forget about it, where as first parties and exclusive titles will leverage the hardware better. There isn't any significant difference between my 2080 and a 2080 ti for RT, but one is certainly better than the other.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
thicc_girls_are_teh_best HBM3 is cheaper.
Any proof? Also if you mean it being cheaper than HBM well that's obvious because HBM has been phased out more or less.
However I highly doubt it's cheaper than GDDR6, it has nowhere near the number of production volumes or manufacturing partners to reach that, unless capacities are much smaller or they have scaled back on performance (the latter I know isn't true since details on the spec specify increases).
CameFromNearFuture
Banned
I particularly dont want to see me regarded as a special member with higher status than the norm because I dont see myself as being one and I Find It a bit invasive to my profile as I am not looking for attentions or any special treatment.
Believing in me or not is a personal choice anyway.
But It would be funny being discredited simply because I am not an special member with verified account and boom, 13.02.2.0 happens!
gaming_noob
Member
Damn it. Please just tell me Series X is more powerful than PS5. The wounds from 2013 are still fresh...
DJ12
Member
To vague. 13 of Feb is going to happen that's how the calendar works. There have been rumours as far back as August that there is an event in Feb, although they state the 12th. I wouldn't consider this your information to be honest and if it happens on the 12th and there is some reference to something 2.0 I guess we can all give you a pass for being a day late but if there's nothing of the sort then I hope you enjoyed your breif time of being gafs flavour of the week.
DJ12
Member
Like all other leakers before him and I'm sure all those after until there is no use for them, ps5 is slightly more powerful than Xbox.
But if your particular brand is green then other than missing out on Sony games, you won't be missing much.
CameFromNearFuture
Banned
Im giving You the exact day and I have hitting that the date is a special indication of PS5 power.
I dont know what do You want more. You want me to Tell You the exact hour and minute sir Mark Cerny Will get on stage and reveal the official specs ? Come on, Man.
Sometimes I find You guys unfair, like You enjoy bullying the insiders class.
You can not demand us to reveal absolutely everything with israeli missile precision.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I agree there is little point in busting your balls like some do but then the vagueness does frustrate as I'm sure you understand. Sharing something small but very specific/unique that turns out true at the reveal/launch might be something to consider?
If your hint of 2.0 is power related then logically it can only realistically be a reference to the GPU clock, only we've had the Oberon 2.0GHz GPU clock leak for months now.
Dilusha117
Neo Member
Did any insider say anything about the Xbox surprise at game awards? If the answer is no, then there aren't any real insiders here.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Funnily enough there were no leaks about XSEX at TGA 2019. And that should've been mountains easier to spoil, right?
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Yeah I'm guessing Geoff owed Phil one after spoiling the One X price at E3 2017! Saying that GameSpot got the XSX scoop interview so leaks were possible but didn't happen. Jason Ronald and Phil Spencer did Tweet to watch the TGAs early on the day so as to get people watching.
I'm sure Phil had that whole video presentation on a flash drive he plugged in to a PC just before coming on stage!
DJ12
Member
13.02.2.0 want it. Guess it's to vague or so specific that it makes no sense.
As you now allude to it being a refernece to the power I would hazard a guess that it's 13.02 tflops running at 2.0 GHz, but I'm not really sure clock speed will be an usp anyone would care about, but maybe that's just something you've added and not how it's referred to at Sony.
Who knows. Maybe you, time will tell.
Insane Metal
Member
I honestly don't know how people expect these machines to have 12+ AMD TFs while having console power constraints. The math just doesn't add up.
In time, I'll be really happy to be proven wrong since the more powerful these consoles are the better.
Bani
Member
you'll hardly see anything like that,PS 5 will have 36,40 CUs active, and may run at 2 Ghz, this will be the maximum52 active CUs at 2.0Ghz ~ 13.3TFlops
PS5
52 active CUs at 1.82Ghz ~ 12.1TFlops
XseX
gl
Mass Shift
Member
People throwing around a higher TF and a lower msrp now?
THE:MILKMAN
Member
For me there are quite few things contradicting each other right now. I guess that is be expected to some extent but the full reveals, full specs and price for both consoles can't come soon enough.
Dilusha117
Neo Member
I personally don't care how much faster or slower the PS5 will be. Or even how uglier or prettier it will be. I'm only buying it to get all the PS exclusives.
And with MS giving all Xbox exclusives to PC, I don't even have to buy the XSX. Instead, I'm buying a gaming laptop or a desktop next year.
I'm only buying it to get all the PS exclusives.And with MS giving all Xbox exclusives to PC, I don't even have to buy the XSX. Instead, I'm buying a gaming laptop or a desktop next year.
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ResilientBanana
Member
Anyone think that with Microsoft’s approach, they aren’t limited on a single spec?
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FranXico
Member
Would have leaked by now.
Dilusha117
Neo Member
Foxy games UK from Youtube is pretty reliable for PS news I guess.
gaming internet has become unbearable...
ResilientBanana
Member
Maybe so, but I think Sony and MS might make more models this time around.
Imtjnotu
Member
WHY only 36
thelastword
Banned
That will give MS plenty of time to up clocks if Sony reveals too early...…...52 active CUs at 2.0Ghz ~ 13.3TFlops
PS5
52 active CUs at 1.82Ghz ~ 12.1TFlops
XseX
gl
I always said it would be 7nm EUV, I believe that for sure, but I don't think Sony will reveal the PS5 so early, especially before TLOU2, before E3, before Tsushima...…....
Thin skin, persecution complex, nah nah nah nah types...…..Moutain dew drinkin...
RDNA 2, with RDNA 3 hooks...….Lol, yes....
Don't believe this for a second, MS said last E3 they had the most first party games ever revealed, what we saw was lots of DLC for Ori, SOT, SOD, Forza etc.....with a few other indies and such.....As opposed, we've heard that a new PlayStation All Stars is coming, Bluepoint's game, Godfall, and Sony is working on a big MP game, they are also dedicating some resources to MP as well........So we're looking at AAA games from Sony vs AA and indie games from MS for the most part....
Also there is nothing wrong with GTS, DS, Tsushima and LOU2 remastered, these are all high production AAA games and some of them are releasing only a few months ahead of the PS5's launch.........
sonomamashine
Member
because they always disable 4 CU's to avoid waste.
Imtjnotu
Member
More asking why he thinks it's 40 max
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