nikolino840
Member
Can be small for us but not for them to create the game
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Agnostic2020
Member
why multiplied by 1.2?
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
The difference in heat between something that's running 12tf compared to something that's running 10tf is quite large, large enough that, actually, you may just be able to get that into a smaller form factor. But, the difference in power for lets say a single TF isn''t big enough to make any real difference. The trouble is that power is exponential when used against rendering. As you increase fidelity, you also increase the jump needed for "the next step". So, while these consoles will BOTH present a serious upgrade over current gen, that's because the power difference is large. But for the PS5 to look miles better than the Series X, you will be looking for the SX to be for example 10tf, and the PS5 to be 13tf, at least. But that's a MASSIVE gap in capability, to the point of not being a logical conclusion.
That's why I never really bought into the 12tf xbox vs the 9tf PS5, because that's one hell of a huge jump. The actual gap will be MUCH, much smaller. But then, the rumours were also that the SX would be more expensive, and we already know its not a normal form factor.
Its another one of those "We still don't know enough, so lets just chat" things. But I would be surprised a massive deal if theres a massive difference in power between the two.
ethomaz
Banned
Nope.
Neither your math makes sense.
To have more than 9TFs these 40/36CUs are just false.
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ANIMAL1975
Member
To be the magic number, 10Tflops
Gamernyc78
Banned
Nickolaidas
Member
Well, if we have your words ...
ANIMAL1975
Member
I agree with you, i think you didn't understand me. What i mean was, being series X ~12tf like I believe so, the difference to ~13tf PS5 would be around that 10% figure that has been around ( so 10ish like you said), wouldn't it? Don't know the math lol but think that's what been said.
Slings and Arrows
Banned
Why wouldn't he be ballsy? He's a random no name poster who has given up none of his sources. He can say whatever the fuck he wants. He's one Heil Hitler or Dick pic away from being perm'd with no traceability
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Talk is cheap Tommy Robinson. Get verified
or GTFO.
chemical boy
Member
I totally agree, here there are only two options or there are different development kits, or someone is lying. 10 TFLOPS is not the same, as 12 or even 13.
saintjules
Member
Could be speculation, but he didn't say "I've heard" or "I think", which helps define the word speculation. But anyway, honestly, the way he was speaking sounded like he has information. Or he's lying. One or the other.
Gamernyc78
Banned
Why wouldn't he be ballsy? He's a random no name poster who has given up none of his sources. He can say whatever the fuck he wants. He's one Heil Hitler or Dick pic away from being perm'd with no traceability
Why? he may not be verified but he already spoke with mods who've said as much..
Nickolaidas
Member
Sony and MS were apparently giving multiple dev kits, one per insider, apparently.
By the time the consoles get released, their games will have 5 TF difference in performance each.
YOU GET A TERRAFLOP, HE GETS A TERRAFLOP, EVERBODY GETS A TERRAFLOP!!!
By the time the consoles get released, their games will have 5 TF difference in performance each.
YOU GET A TERRAFLOP, HE GETS A TERRAFLOP, EVERBODY GETS A TERRAFLOP!!!
Slings and Arrows
Banned
And the mods won't rat him out and damage the reputation of the forum.
All I'm saying is these 'insiders' have dropped nothing concrete and outside of VFX have nothing to lose if they're wrong.
If we're going to do insiders, then at least make the leaks worthwhile like CBOAT, NTKRNL or The Durango leaks from 2011. Give us something or wait. Saying "X maybe possibly, potentially probably about right if Y doesn't happen" or "you will see soon" (Of course we fucking will, it's launch year) is nothing but attention seeking.
Even the obscure picture of the top of the HDD of the 360 got people talking more positively than this shit-baiting crap.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
If 12TF is a seriously crazy number to throw about, what is 13? You have to remember these are consoles to be priced as such, in boxes that will run them without setting fire in a few minutes. Now if theres an engineer in the world hat can stick a 13tf machine into a console the size of an xbox one X and price it at £400-£450, I would LOVE to meet them, because that's some serious space age shit they have going on lol.
Gamernyc78
Banned
Oh, I agree! if anything most of these insiders besides Osiris and Fisher(if u consider him one) actually cause more confusion because they don't assertly say anything and give us ambiguity with more than one response for the same question (e.g. I have two sources with diff info
).
nikolino840
Member
How many TF Is too much TF?
joe_zazen
Member
.
”So I looked at the leak. In all "regression test results", there's always a tab for "igpu" and another for "igpu_295", with the same tests.”
also new entries for master/slave gpus in linux navi drivers.
to reiterate: github is totally legit information. there is a real 36/40 CU chip for sony with a maximum clock of 2 GHz, based on navi tech at 7nm.
Knowing everything we do about 5700xt power curve (which are best binned chips, so the ones with best characteristics), the max TF for ’github’ ps5 is 9.2. And that will require terrible yields and expensive cooling because 2 GHz is far far from the sweet spot for ‘the best of the best’ chips. So, at face value, github means 8-9 TF ps5. Certainly possible.
But, taking into account all the credible statements from connected folks, that seems wrong, Assuming xsx is 11TF+ (and why wouldn't it be at 405mm^2,) no one has squared that circle. Hence my belief that ps5 and upcoming amd cards are multi chip, designed to appear as a simgle gpu to OS.
In ps5 case, we have an apu + slavegpu. when running in back compat, second gpu gets shut down and the apu gpu mimics ps4/ps4pro hardware. In ps5 mode, all cylinders fire. yes, this will be expensive, but it squares github with insiders, and allows sony to have a competitive console.
it also means amd stock might take a nice jump this as i don't think nvidia has been developing this kind of tech. 2 smaller dies are cheaper than one big one, so maybe amd will have the power crown soon.
tldr so yeah, ps5 is dual and next gen of amd power cards will be as well.
lol, yeah...i used to hang out with this guy who would get into gigs with nothing more than pure attitude and a fake radio station businesses card.
that is best case. Worst case is we don't get concrete announcement until e3; or maybe augsust/sept. And even then we might not have actual numbers until public get hands on in nov.
.
Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]
Just food for thought... Die sizes : PS2 - 519mm2 ↓ PS3 - 493mm2 ↓ PS4 - 348mm2 ↓ Pro - 320mm2 ↓ PS5 - ???mm2 ? I'm assuming the PS2 and PS3 values are arrived at by adding the areas of the CPU and graphics chips together. While it is true that there is increasing pressure to keep die...forum.beyond3d.com
”So I looked at the leak. In all "regression test results", there's always a tab for "igpu" and another for "igpu_295", with the same tests.”
also new entries for master/slave gpus in linux navi drivers.
to reiterate: github is totally legit information. there is a real 36/40 CU chip for sony with a maximum clock of 2 GHz, based on navi tech at 7nm.
Knowing everything we do about 5700xt power curve (which are best binned chips, so the ones with best characteristics), the max TF for ’github’ ps5 is 9.2. And that will require terrible yields and expensive cooling because 2 GHz is far far from the sweet spot for ‘the best of the best’ chips. So, at face value, github means 8-9 TF ps5. Certainly possible.
But, taking into account all the credible statements from connected folks, that seems wrong, Assuming xsx is 11TF+ (and why wouldn't it be at 405mm^2,) no one has squared that circle. Hence my belief that ps5 and upcoming amd cards are multi chip, designed to appear as a simgle gpu to OS.
In ps5 case, we have an apu + slavegpu. when running in back compat, second gpu gets shut down and the apu gpu mimics ps4/ps4pro hardware. In ps5 mode, all cylinders fire. yes, this will be expensive, but it squares github with insiders, and allows sony to have a competitive console.
it also means amd stock might take a nice jump this as i don't think nvidia has been developing this kind of tech. 2 smaller dies are cheaper than one big one, so maybe amd will have the power crown soon.
tldr so yeah, ps5 is dual and next gen of amd power cards will be as well.
lol, yeah...i used to hang out with this guy who would get into gigs with nothing more than pure attitude and a fake radio station businesses card.
that is best case. Worst case is we don't get concrete announcement until e3; or maybe augsust/sept. And even then we might not have actual numbers until public get hands on in nov.
Agnostic2020
Member
oh in GDC the spec will leak as all the devs and journos are all in the same room
DJ12
Member
Firstly who said it's going to be a traditional form factor?
Secondly you assume it's not cheap, probably right, but it's probably a price Sony are willing to swallow to dominate again.
And at 12 tflops, 13 is not that big a difference, it's within the 10 percent margin everyone has been talking about for months.
As for heat, cooling something with 13tflops seems to be pretty easy just look at the best from Nvidia and Radeon 7 from AMD. Neither really require any exotic cooling. 2080tis even come with in a blower form factor much like I suspect the ps5 will be if they go for a standard form factor.
Time will tell I guess but I don't think it's as cut and dry as you are suggesting. It's very doable to cool in my opinion
Get verified mate. It's way too easy to create an account and pretend te be an insider. There are no risks on your part if you're for real since mods are extremely private with that information.
Gamernyc78
Banned
Nah I wouldn't give up my source either if I had one especially if my source states "don't share this with noooo one".
Tommy Fisher is clearly a troll.That's not whatMod of War said.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
1) Several leaks are saying its traditional form factor, that's why.
2) Price is key, not power. Sony could release a machine matching Xbox One X TF wise (with updated tech anyway) and it would still dominate. But pricing yourself out of the market isn't going to work. There IS an upper limit on what people will pay at launch, and nobody is untouchable in this regard.
3) 12-13 tf isn't that big a difference, of course. But it is a big difference in terms of power consumption as well as heat dispersion, and as such would require new thinking. It wouldn't result in anything different rendering wise in game that's perceivable by average Joe, but it would be big enough to make changes elsewhere.
4) My 2080ti is a legit nvidia tier edition, and let me tell you, it pumps out a LOT of heat. Until I adjusted my case fans and changed the fan profile on the card, it was hitting upward of 70 degrees when in demanding games at 4k and 120fps+. It now sits around 50ish. But its not quiet, at least not as quiet as I would like. The card is designed to withstand constant use of high temps and will throttle at high 80s. But that's far too hot for my liking. Now when you think about how much heat the current mid gen refresh consoles pump out (about 45-50ish) that's quite a difference. But again, the 2080ti is an expensive piece of kit, and the whole thing is designed amazingly well... And its still huge and loud.
Its never going to be cut and dry, none of this is, and again, until we get HARD facts, all of this is just happy chat
Gudji
Member
Gavin Stevens
which leaks are saying it's the traditional form factor? Really curious on that one.Also anyone thinking 9 vs 12 is still a thing are in for a surprise. Just a guess.
joe_zazen
Member
so more leaks. i dont think the angst will end until we have something concrete.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Also anyone thinking 9 vs 12 is still a thing are in for a surprise. Just a guess.
TBF mate it could be tales from my ass at this point, I just seem to remember reading a few before now. So I can't really back that up without searching my browser history, and that's not something I want to do at family time
Well, I wouldn't share private info on next gen consoles on a public forum if I signed an NDA. Getting verified with a mod is less risky.
Gudji
Member
TBF mate it could be tales from my ass at this point, I just seem to remember reading a few before now. So I can't really back that up without searching my browser history, and that's not something I want to do at family time
It's okay there's so many shit on the internet that I've also lost count of leaks at this point.
DJ12
Member
I think this one is, fan renders for sure have all looked traditional apart from the one that looked like a shrunk down Dev kit.TBF mate it could be tales from my ass at this point, I just seem to remember reading a few before now. So I can't really back that up without searching my browser history, and that's not something I want to do at family time
Obviously if the leak with the start up sequence was legit that points to a standard form factor but the entire side of that was opened up with slots cut out of it, but it still looked bigger than any playstation to date.
NoLootBoxDev
Member
Sorry to break it for you, but as the insider of all insiders, think on 16TF (after they up clock the shit out of it.)
Investor9872
Member
Must be Lunar New Year time, because this is just getting too looney!
ANIMAL1975
Member
Not quite. The message around series X has been very consistent and around the 12TF figure (only Osiris said 11.6 i think, and that's pretty much the same). It's the PS5 numbers that have been all over the place, raging from the 8/9tf defense force (started by the Twitter/Github dump show, that began with Gonzalo) to the 12/13tf camp supported by the likes of Klee, and in Gaf by Osiris and HeisenbergFX4 (same 12tf range/different pole-position), and finally Tommy that wasn't vetted for insufficient provbut wasn't banned
Investor9872
Member
If the sources tells you, "Don't share this with noooo one," it means that he does want you to share it with everyone!
DJ12
Member
Dude, just get vetted, tell the mods whatever they want to know. I want to believe you.
OK, fair enough we knew the target for PS5 was 13 tflops since the very first leak from that PS next gen meeting when that PowerPoint slide showed up and we know from Osiris Klee and Windows central that Xbox series X was also targeting 12tfs, but hey you getting vetted, properly, would make the world of difference.....
chilichote
Member
As target or as retail?
ResilientBanana
Member
Really IIRC a lot of the specs called for 8TF for both consoles in the beginning. Also you’re never going to get 13TF in a small form factor
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How about this:
No more insider talk. Anyone pretending to be an insider or offering 'insider' information, whether vetted or not, is instantly and permanently removed from the thread.
We all want info, but wading through 770 pages of horseshit makes us, this thread and this forum, look like fucking idiots.
What say you gaf and
We’ve already been doing this. People harassing ones vetted are being removed as well.
New accounts that pretend and not vet, will be removed from site.
I was away most of yesterday out enjoying a nice all day hike, so I have quite a bit to catch up on in here today.
And why don't you, when checking, ask for photos that can prove something ?
Why don’t you not tell me how to do my job, and read the post above this one.
Handy Fake
Member
We've had a penis threat.
It's not been vetted but we're pretty sure it's been an insider at some point.
AGRacing
Member
For the “dual gpu” camp....
What I’m always surprised about is why AMD and Sony wouldn’t take advantage of the “chiplet” design AMD is currently using for their CPUs.
They manufacture a boatload of 7nm 8 core “chiplet” processors and just combine them to make 16 core or 32 core CPUs ,etc. And they’re already making them right now.
Why design an APU with that same 8 Core CPU on the chip taking up space and limiting the GPU size ? Can’t they take an off the shelf Zen 2 CPU chiplet and combine it with a bigger GPU for a reasonable cost?
I’m no expert so I’m genuinely asking why this wouldn’t be done.... but it does seem a waste to me to waste APU space on the zen2 CPU when AMD is pumping out these zen2 CPU chiplets in massive quantities for a big cost benefit.
What I’m always surprised about is why AMD and Sony wouldn’t take advantage of the “chiplet” design AMD is currently using for their CPUs.
They manufacture a boatload of 7nm 8 core “chiplet” processors and just combine them to make 16 core or 32 core CPUs ,etc. And they’re already making them right now.
Why design an APU with that same 8 Core CPU on the chip taking up space and limiting the GPU size ? Can’t they take an off the shelf Zen 2 CPU chiplet and combine it with a bigger GPU for a reasonable cost?
I’m no expert so I’m genuinely asking why this wouldn’t be done.... but it does seem a waste to me to waste APU space on the zen2 CPU when AMD is pumping out these zen2 CPU chiplets in massive quantities for a big cost benefit.
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protonion
Member
Though this thread has been entertaining, I have to ask why this obsession with leaks?
I'm hyped as fuck for PS5 and I want to experience the reveal like 7 years ago.
So if a legit leaker posted a detailed spec paper and games to be announced, would you really be happy?
Don't you want to experience again the anticipation and excitement we got from the 8gb ram last time?
Or the thrill of a game reveal you do not expect?
No leaks please!
I'm hyped as fuck for PS5 and I want to experience the reveal like 7 years ago.
So if a legit leaker posted a detailed spec paper and games to be announced, would you really be happy?
Don't you want to experience again the anticipation and excitement we got from the 8gb ram last time?
Or the thrill of a game reveal you do not expect?
No leaks please!
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
There's one reason this doesn't really add up: why do all this work for backwards compatibility through dual-GPUs and literally only have one of the GPUs even doing it, when a larger single GPU die is both potentially cheaper and more logical? The PS5 chips we've seen results for (Gonzalo, Ariel and Oberon, and I believe others have said that Ariel is basically an earlier version of Oberon) would be 40CU chips. If people are claiming a figure like 13TF, then across both chips they'd be disabling four cores, for 72CUs @ ~1420MHz.
...but if that's the case, why would the PS5 devkit need the cooling it seemingly has? From the looks of it that type of cooling is overkill for a system with GPUs running that low in clocks. And we've already seen Oberon testing at 2GHz...why do that for a system intended for a dual GPU setup? Unless, what, they have one Oberon chip at 2GHz or some super-high number like that, and the other at sub 1000MHz (well below any modern GPU card's clocks)!? So in reality wouldn't PS5's TF number be closer to, say, 15.6TF-16TF (assuming they could at least match XSX's possible GPU clock)? But there's absolutely no one credible throwing that figure around.
The other idea would be that in looking for a somewhat sane price point on a dual GPU system, they'd clock them both insanely low to keep the cooling costs down. But really, even a modestly pricey cooling setup is still cheaper than a second GPU (and the costs in implementing it in the design). So even with that in mind a dual "small" GPU setup & reduced cooling, is going to be a higher BOM than a monolithic larger GPU with sufficient cooling. And for what, exactly? A possible single TF performance edge, if that? Doesn't seem economically sensible imo.
I mean, monolithic GPUs already have CUs disabled for yield purposes; they can disable any number of additional CUs as needed if they wanted to run hardware-level back-compat for PS4 and PS4 Pro. And it'd be smarter than a dual 40 CU GPU design where you literally just turn one off but even both together don't deliver a substantial performance boost over a 60CU Navi chip (at least with the implementation of them Sony would do theoretically to reach the 12+/13TF claims some of these other rumors have).
So I mean, could they be using dual Oberons in the system? Maybe. But given the much lower-than-maximum performance potential they'd be using them at, it (IMHO) only lends credence to the idea that at some point, they were going with a sole 40CU chip, hence the 2019 launch rumors, the reports mentioning a delay into 2020, the rumors over a system targeting $399 specs, and even helps put into perspective some of the sudden departures from SIE and other PS divisions last year like Shawn Layden. Something would have forced them into a redesign state, maybe it was the XSX?
Personally I just find it fascinating because if indeed the dual GPU spec plays out like it does, with two Oberon (or whatever its final name will be) chips but only giving an extra TF of performance over XSX (if that), then also it humorously feels a bit like karma (if you can call it that) biting Sony. It's almost completely analogous to the rapid redesign SEGA had with the Saturn over two decades ago, after finding out PS1 specs. Partly due to being a larger company and also partly due to technology just being nowhere near as esoteric anymore in the console space (hell, AMD's doing the heavy lifting for both next-gen systems), I can see Sony succeeding in such a redesign where SEGA ultimately fumbled all those years ago....but it wouldn't change the (potential) similar factors of them leading to those respective redesigns.
Which honestly would just make me question if Sony did not pay MS or Nintendo as much of a threat to consider for next-gen, hence initially going with a more conservative design. Quite interesting really to see how these parallels can play out, it's what makes learning console history so fun. Now the other part of this equation that could make everything I'm saying moot, is if instead of dual Oberons, PS5 has a 40 CU GPU chip coupled with a smaller (say, 20 CU) chip.
Now THAT would make more sense, and allow both to reach their sweetspots while offering performance potentially either around XSX's 12TF figure or slightly more. You wouldn't essentially have two GPU clusters operating well below sweetspot efficiency, and each one could just have two CUs disabled rather than four. You would still need a sufficient cooling solution but (potentially) nothing more expensive than what the XSX is doing.
But again, that presents another problem: why haven't we uncovered any existence of that other potential GPU? It's getting pretty late and the reveal is literally around the corner. We should have at least SOME hard data on such a chip, via GPU benchmark tests, but to the best of my knowledge, nothing's come up. Hell, we even have a benchmark test for Lockhart's GPU, and we know even less about that than the PS5 xD.
EDIT: Also would like to add to my speculation, that if dual GPU with 2x Oberons and 13 or so TF were the performance targets for PS5, we wouldn't be seeing Oberon GPU benchmarks at 2GHz as late as June 2019, and we'd see at least a benchmark or two by now with Oberon around 1.42GHz (we already know the other two clocks were regression tests for PS4 and PS4 Pro).
If a dual GPU approach with Oberon and a 2nd chip half its size is the target for 12-13TF PS5, then we need a leak for that smaller chip to come out that can be tied to Oberon. Which hasn't happened yet and doesn't seem like it's going to happen. Also at some point we'd need an Oberon benchmark testing to come out with it clocked around 1.7Ghz since it'd be assumed both it and the other GPU would be clocked the same, and 1.7GHz is how you'd get to 12TF; 1.75GHz on both would push them near 12.5TF, higher than 1,8GHz would be slightly more than 13TF.
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chemical boy
Member
I have said it several times, but either we begin to have real data (even if it is simply the date of disclosure) or the hype will start to decline. We are in a stalemate right now for a month and a half.
chilichote
Member
In my head i believe Sony comes with a regular PS5 @8-9 TF in march/april and at the end of the year (october/november) with the 12-13 TF PS5 Pro to counter the Series X. And that there will be an Series S like the regular PS5.
That's my take from the TF flipflop, GitHub, Heisenbergs sources, the "Insiders", etc.^^
That's my take from the TF flipflop, GitHub, Heisenbergs sources, the "Insiders", etc.^^
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Roronoa Zoro
Gold Member
Major miscommunication between departments. The only thing native to the console is MS office running on Windows 98. The rest has to be streamed. I talked with Phil Spencer at a bar and he said "what a streaming pile of garbage!"According to the businessinsider.in, MS has made some major design mistakes. Looks like the XSX is a streaming-only device (outbound).
chemical boy
Member
That is completely impossible.
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