Felessan
Member
It will be much less that 10%. First it's not linear. Second - PS5 actually has higher rasterization speed than XsX so things like anti-aliasing will perform better on it.
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Apollo Helios
Member
Nope RDNA 2 was the starting point for both, a canvas with shapes included but how you paint over filling or not filling those is up to the customers and believe you me when I say that both have their own customizations added on top of it.
Want an example?
The Cache Scrubbers that have been added on the CUs right there on the SoC die is a Sony customization. It won't be on a future PC part, it won't be on SeX. How much space per CU or per WGP it fills, we don't know. Is it part of RDNA 2, absolutely not. It is a totally proprietary solution by Sony. Why do we know this even in the first place? Cause Sony went ahead and officially revealed it, thus no one can speak out of their asses when claiming RDNA 2 arch is just a monolithic thing you get what you got when in fact as Cerny explained "it's features are malleable" meaning that you can add stuff, subtract stuff, change stuff within that arch especially when talking about as bespoke and customized stuff as these consoles.
So it may be revealed tomorrow that MS has it's own sauce in there, so you may want to rethink your reasoning before you are forced to take it back saying the bolded and underlined stuff of yours.
Exact burn is timestamped if you wanna watch
Yes - imagine. That is from 1,8tf - around the same performance Xbox has over PS5. If you can make a game look that good with 1.8TF - surely you can use that 1.8TF power to make a 10TF-game look better?This is from Days Gone, this was made on 1.8tf (GCN), better not downplay the ps5, remember Sony has beasts not devs under their sleeve.
Microsoft didn't opt for two different memory speeds, they opted to mix densities with the RAM chips they used which means that the higher memory space of the higher density chips can only be accessed together lowering the effective bus when you access them to 192bits from 320bits.
DemonCleaner
Member
Sorry if this has been posted already
well he is obviously no engine "developer"
Zoro7
Banned
I find it really funny how more and more developers are talking about their excitement for the PS5 yet "experts" on this forum are not having it.
The more I read the more excited I am for the PS5.
I also laugh at the guys that are "worried" the PS5 CPU / GPU cant run consistently at higher frequencies....why dont we let the professionals worry?
The more I read the more excited I am for the PS5.
I also laugh at the guys that are "worried" the PS5 CPU / GPU cant run consistently at higher frequencies....why dont we let the professionals worry?
kareemna
Member
Exactly! We just theoretically argue about theoretical numbers to us. Both are interesting pieces of hardware to get a deep dive on and discuss, especially after they are torn down.
Now we want the games and both havent delivered yet.
kareemna
Member
Apollo Helios
Member
Nope it was referring to their own take of RDNA 2 cores that's on PS5, and they compered those to again another specialized core that is based (but not with complete feature parity!) on GCN that was on their PS4. So pears to avocados.
PS5 RDNA 2 is just a custom RDNA 2, and again PS4 GCN is a custom GCN, both of which you can't find in off the shelf PC part!
Well if a game is bottlenecked by I/O, solving that bottleneck frees up cycles that can be used by GPU to push FPS. So sticking in an SSD =/= higher fps directly, but indirectly if you know I/O is the bottleneck and then yeah SSD = higher fps. Star Citizen is a game that is highly bottlenecked by I/O, so if you have and HDD oh boy good luck getting it above 14 fps, but put in an m2 and it is night and day. Your top of the line graphics card is choked in the first instance, now it is flopping those points as it's supposed to.
Yeah me too. It sounds similar to Vega fp16 packed math and primitive shader stuff that was largely crippled by other part of the gpu and mostly unused for that reason. Now, it seems whatever was crippling it has been solved, and I kinda have a feeling it is have something to do with higher bandwidth, or using the audio SPU as coprocessor.
Yet! Maybe from now on, having PCIe 4.0 m2 SSDs will be much more important going in the future even on the PC landscape. What if the previously weakest links/consoles are generating a leap for PC gaming as well, pushing all enthusiast grade rigs in this direction, and all the developers start targeting these hw and expecting certain streaming speed demands for their upcoming games.
I'm genuinely happy with what I've seen with the ps5 thus far. The only point of contention is price. As long as Sony comes in $100 or so cheaper than the competition I can't see them losing their steam.
But being realistic, ps5 doesn't sound like a $399 machine, and Series X doesn't sound like a $499 machine either. I guess it's down to how much of a loss they're willing to take per unit at launch.
But being realistic, ps5 doesn't sound like a $399 machine, and Series X doesn't sound like a $499 machine either. I guess it's down to how much of a loss they're willing to take per unit at launch.
ruvikx
Banned
SSD isn't going to compensate for a weaker CPU/GPU combo. It doesn't perform the same task, despite some "interesting" spin I'm reading this morning. The truth is there's a real power difference between both consoles. We'll see whether the price also reflects that.
pasterpl
Member
damn, I had scratchy throat for 2 wks now, but no fever. Hope you will get better soon mate.
while your comment is actually very valid, don’t forget about the months of conversations in this thread where Sony fans were certain that PS5 will have more flops (yes, flops are only one way of measuring performance and probably not the best in the real world scenarios), the grief that anyone mentioning 9.2 or 36 cu got and all of these memes for the last 2 days after Sony event was announced.
reality is that we can expect better looking 3rd party games on xbsex this gen (higher res and better rt)
btw. I found it interesting that almost everyone skipped the input latency thing ms is trying to pull off, this could make xbsex platform of choice for esports and pro gamers
Zoro7
Banned
Doesnt this also apply the other way round?
Yes the PS5 is at a disadvantage here but a substantially fast SSD also has its advantages as many developers on twitter have been saying.
A stronger CPU/GPU will not compensate for a slower SSD.
You can say that about anything really. So we can discuss all day but we wont know for sure until we see some games.
kyliethicc
Member
Yeah but GPUs are just part of the system. The PS5 CPU+GPU, RAM, SSD, I/O, etc all are way better combined than the PS4.
The Xbox One had shitty DDR3 RAM and it’s GPU ran at similar clock to the PS4, but with less CUs. To be fair, the Xbox One had plenty of great games like the Witcher 3 in even just 2015, it just wasn’t an exclusives machine like PS4. I never felt the need to buy it because as a PS4 gamer, Xbox exclusives like Halo just don’t speak to me. I could just play Witcher on my PS4.
But it’s not like the Xbox One was the power of a Wii U. It was just overpriced and focused on dumb TV shit & Kinect. That’d be like if PS5 is revealed and it’s $600 but it comes with a PSVR2 headset but you have to use the VR headset to turn the console on and off. It won’t be like that, thankfully.
The PS5 has plenty of memory, and has the fastest clocked GPU in any console ever. It has the fastest SSD in any game console ever. It’s gonna be interesting to see if it can deliver the games. Sony has great devs.
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Darius87
Member
will you take actions against those fake insiders? like you said you will do, or just pretend nothing happened?Welcome backSonGoku
Everyone else in here, a reminder to keep it civil and dial it back on the insults, and don’t take personal offense for criticisms towards your favorite brands.
Metroiddarks
Member
A quick comment which I was forgotten in navi gpus the TF difference doesn't mean a relation 1:1 to performance just see the 5700 xt to 5700 exists around 22% of difference in flops
but only around of 14% in performance.
www.techpowerup.com
www.techpowerup.com
but only around of 14% in performance.
AMD Radeon RX 5700 Specs
AMD Navi 10, 1725 MHz, 2304 Cores, 144 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 8192 MB GDDR6, 1750 MHz, 256 bit
AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT Specs
AMD Navi 10, 1905 MHz, 2560 Cores, 160 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 8192 MB GDDR6, 1750 MHz, 256 bit
I heard lock hart and Series X are the same, Series X clocks as low as 4 TF.
Apollo Helios
Member
Look let me give you a PC enthusiast example (I'm one so partly telling my troubles).
If you have an amazing GPU like a GTX 980Ti, but you only have those stupid old Bulldozer FX 8350 CPUs, and on top of that a goddamn HDD => You are not gettin everting out of your GPU, not even close, not even let's sat 30% of it's PEAK power.
Now put in an i7 CPU (of course whole DDR4 and MoBo, whole shebang), but can't afford a good SSD yet => You are getting somewhere, suddenly you jumped to 75-80% of using your GPU at its PEAK power, only those frame times are terrible, 1% of frames are lagging like hell.
Now finally can afford an m2 SSD, put that in even Windows boots in seconds, but forget that, load the game in seconds and you are now at 98-99% of PEAK power of your GPU, frame times are amazing, it is now finally capped at 60fps only perhaps a few hiccups. Why 1-2% missing, cause it's PC there is always better CPU, GPU and SSD, etc. Why hiccups, well everything from bad drivers, to background updates, to game bar acting up, to even game engine not being optimized can be the goddamn reason.
I'm a PC gamer. Don't try to fuck with me on this topic, I know what I'm saying when I'm saying that sometimes SSDs do compensate for CPU/GPU combos, more so if those are also powerful but bottlenecked by I/O, less so when they're weaker and bottlenecks are all around. I/O on HDD for the games coming out since 2016s is THE bottleneck period. Solving that bottleneck doesn't magically make your GTX 760 into GTX 980TI, but if that top GPU isn't hitting anywhere near it's peak perf then solving any bottleneck I/O included will give you more FPS.
School is out.
Darius87
Member
where do you see word temperature in my post?
also it's dependant on cooling capacity, next time read more carefully.
M.Night Shyamalan
Member
Who are they?
Name and shame?
For you it is indeed and also for the rest of the world with all that corona.
Who says the Series X is not feeding cpu and gpu to the max with their approach and velocity engine. Just because you put in a SSD in your pc? Microsoft’s approach is different from Sony but essentially about the same bottlenecks .
Investor9872
Member
Then why on Earth would Microsoft do that? There must be other benefits for them to use the "mix densities" RAM chips. It doesn't make any sense for them to go that route if it were to lower their effective bus to 192bits from 320bits.
pasterpl
Member
let’s not forget that Xbsex also have the ssd drive, it just slower than the one in ps5. but Not massively slower. It will be down to devs to show us how they can utilise these ssd’s, rt, velocity architecture and 3D audio.
They compensate by instant access assets from the Ssd. Velocity engine ,Instant is instant , no buss speeds needed
pasterpl
Member
I think that this was done to reduce costs, and probably after long analysis of performance impact (e.g. what is the memory requirement for heaviest parts of the game vs what doesn’t require fast memory). Again, something that devs out there can explain better.
The reason I thought 9.2 Tflops with 36CUs was a nonsense is because to do it you need to run the GPU at 2.0Ghz. No AMD GPU Architecture in history has ever done that without blowing up the power consumption and it seemed far fetched that AMD would achieve it now in a console TDP envelope.
As it so happens it looks as though RDNA2 + N7(P maybe, + perhaps they didn't say) is capable of it. The problem for me is that this would not have been known 2+ years ago and to make a decent leap over previous gen 9Tflops (and the other bits in proportion) was kind of the minimum required.
Based on that the safe way to get there is a wide design which will cost more to manufacture due to the die size but will guarantee they can hit their minimum target and should the clock/voltage curve end up being better than expected clocks can increase.
MS went the safe way with a 56CU design (52 active) and pretty high clocks. Even if the clock speed limit in a console TDP was closer to 1600Mhz it would still be a 10.65 Tflop console.
Sony's design is risky because to get far enough away from the Xbox one X they absolutely needed the architecture + node to have a friendly voltage/frequency curve. If it didn't Sony would have a sub 9Tflop console on their hands which would be a disaster IMO.
Also the shit Cerny was saying about the two theoretical GPUs is mostly nonsene because any GPU that has 40% or so more shaders is going to have a similar increase in rops and other functional units like L2 cache and obviously L1 cache (since L1 comes with each CU). So in the hypothetical scenario he is correct but in the real world that is taken into account when designing a wider GPU.
Ar¢tos
Member
LOL @ PC gamers on gaming forums.
They spend half of their time bragging about resolutions and framerates, the other half begging for ports.
Amaranty
Member
I'm sure PS5 exclusives will take full advantage of that super fast SSD but I'm concerned about multiplat games, since they will be designed not around XSX SSD speed but regular HDD speeds. Normal HDD's still exist in PC's so developers can't just disregard them.
I think PS5 yesterday's stream was a letdown since Cerny didn't show any real advantages of PS5 SSD speed vs regular SSD speed.
Apollo Helios
Member
Now you see I'm convinced that you haven't watched the damn stream man. All the bottlenecks EVEN WHEN using those SSDs (which are not also created equal btw don't think I didn't realize how you try to equate them, when one is 2.4GB/s and other is 5.5GB/s one is twice is fast on the base, that is not including differing compression ratios) are solved by R&Ding the shit out of it and using customized proprietary hardware for the bottlenecks that happen elsewhere on the same pipeline which also has parts in the GPU portion of the SoC on the same monolithic die.
SeX and PS5 SSD solutions are not the same, the SSDs used are not the same, the memory controllers used are not the same
What is same => only the bullet point that says SSD on a goddamn spec sheet that is all.
PS5 has a well thought out and engineered solution, reading DF article on Eurogamer points to that along with the 'Road to PS5' stream. For SeX MS seem to optimized the external expansion much more elegantly, but the solution speaks normal implementation and even the memory controller used is not theirs, also on the software side they have more pronounced implementation. Still we didn't see the detailed breakdown for both, so technically we don't know everything about MS method of SSD implementation too. However, everything shouts as it was a much more simplistic, elegant approach that didn't go nitty gritty into engineering aspect of it. Sony just flaunted their whole SSD R&D right in from of us and I won't let any one here say or think that a bullet point on a spec sheet that says SSD magically makes both consoles SSDs the same.
No sir they are not the same. And no, SeX SSD isn't working in the same detailed manner for assisting/serving other components as it does for PS5.
Apollo Helios
Member
Look above.
Apollo Helios
Member
Well if you are talking about me in relation to my recents posts, then at least @ me. Never bragged about resolution or frame rates me self, also not asking for any ports I also like my consoles got all of them, love all of them.
Mriverz
Member
Apollo Helios
man if they anit going bother to watch the df video don’t bother arguing with em.Tbh i was worried about how everything will play out but Df did an amazing job breaking everything down. Ssd so damn fast it can act as ram like wtf
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Ar¢tos
Member
Why the fuck would I be talking about you, when I didn't quote you?
What an ego you got there!
Apollo Helios
Member
Sorry seeing your post right after a post I wrote being a PC player I just jumped to concussion din't even see the gif on your quote.
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
That's for both consoles the case.Tbh i was worried about how everything will play out but Df did an amazing job breaking everything down. Ssd so damn fast it can act as ram like wtf
Mriverz
Member
All we can do is let the games do the talking.
OsirisBlack
HeisenbergFX4
. Any idea how 3rd party devs are going to handle the variable rates??
OsirisBlack
HeisenbergFX4
. Any idea how 3rd party devs are going to handle the variable rates??
I watched it, he was boring as hell and the spinning kept going , In Layman’s terms. It was boring as fuck and not technical at all for a GDC presentation. I watched numerous from DICE and other teams.
Microsoft also offers compression algorithms.
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hardseppo
Member
When I read some of the posts here I am truly thankful I am a multi-console guy.
So one console is a bit weaker, one is a bit stronger -happens every generation. It's the people that only favor one box who are out of their minds as usual and ruin it for everyone.
And PS: Shame on you insiders, this was the exact reason I came here and I read almost 1.500 pages of your crap. Mods, you need a MUCH better verification process. This didn't work well.
So one console is a bit weaker, one is a bit stronger -happens every generation. It's the people that only favor one box who are out of their minds as usual and ruin it for everyone.
And PS: Shame on you insiders, this was the exact reason I came here and I read almost 1.500 pages of your crap. Mods, you need a MUCH better verification process. This didn't work well.
Mriverz
Member
Idk speed wise the xbox Ssd fast. But Ps being 2x is going make a huge difference for them. If devs take advantage of it of course.
Edit: All we can do is wait for the games >.>
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ruvikx
Banned
I will fuck with you on this topic. I can throw Fallout 4 or Witcher 3 onto my own SSD & all I get are faster loading times. That's with a GTX 1080 & I7 8700 CPU. The idea I'd get better game performance in terms of graphics & framerate never actually materialized. Take you percentages & keep them in your own little dreamland.
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
We'll have to see. Sure it's twice as fast, but you also need to be able to handle that amount of output (CPU/GPU) and how big are your games going to be if you really need to load in that many textures?
If the XSX can load 2.4GB of textures in 1s, so for just 1 current view/scene. How large does your game have to be if you really want that many textures for a single second. Imagine that you want 5.5GB of textures... You can maybe install 1-2 games on that 825GB SSD. Honestly I don't believe we will see that much of an impact. Loading will be faster, but you won't see much difference graphically.
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But according to Cerny's and Shinobi's words, PS5 price seems to be attractive. It will be 399 dollars or bigger, but hundred dollars cheaper than XsX. Dont forget that the price is the biggest factor.
While PS5 is weaker machine, i am still interested how those custom techs will be used in real world performance. Imagine performance difference around of only 15-20%?
- How SSD implementation will affect performance. It has very powerful decompressor;
- Tempest Engine impact on performance (according to DF it's power is bigger than 8-core jaguar);
- RT implementation (we know nothing);
- Those variable frequencies real usage. If GPU manages to stay around 10 tfops and 3.4 ghz for Zen 2 all the time, with those higher clocks, performance could be very high. 2100 mhz vs 1830 mhz means better performance when raw power is similar;
- PS5 API and tools. Let's not forget that they are crucial. We are making GPU comparisons, based on PC parts running on DirectX and Vulkan;
- VRS?;
- Geometry Engine (mesh shaders analogue);
- We don't know available RAM for devs. Will be DDR4 added?
If i have to be honest, i expected GPU around 10 tflops, but memory configuration was disappointing. Expected 512 gb/s bandwith, but hey. I am not an engineer. May be they are using 14 gbs chips for cost reduction.
While PS5 is weaker machine, i am still interested how those custom techs will be used in real world performance. Imagine performance difference around of only 15-20%?
- How SSD implementation will affect performance. It has very powerful decompressor;
- Tempest Engine impact on performance (according to DF it's power is bigger than 8-core jaguar);
- RT implementation (we know nothing);
- Those variable frequencies real usage. If GPU manages to stay around 10 tfops and 3.4 ghz for Zen 2 all the time, with those higher clocks, performance could be very high. 2100 mhz vs 1830 mhz means better performance when raw power is similar;
- PS5 API and tools. Let's not forget that they are crucial. We are making GPU comparisons, based on PC parts running on DirectX and Vulkan;
- VRS?;
- Geometry Engine (mesh shaders analogue);
- We don't know available RAM for devs. Will be DDR4 added?
If i have to be honest, i expected GPU around 10 tflops, but memory configuration was disappointing. Expected 512 gb/s bandwith, but hey. I am not an engineer. May be they are using 14 gbs chips for cost reduction.
pasterpl
Member
it all means nothing if developers cannot utilise it to the full, most 3rd party games will not utilise it, we will see load times 1-2 seconds shorter than on xbsex and thats it, it is ps3 cell all over again IMO. great technology that is not utilised most of the time.
Darius87
Member
OsirisBlack
HeisenbergFX4
BGs
Gavin Stevens
some of these just vanished from this thread.
all these riddles nonsense makes me feel stupid for some reason
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