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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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MarkMe2525

MarkMe2525

Member
ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
HeisenbergFX4 said:
Don’t know if this has been shared or not, can’t keep up with this thread.

ca.ign.com

No, Xbox Series X Will Not Have An Optical Audio Port - IGN

During Microsoft's Game Stack Live presentation an Xbox Series X with an S/PDIF optical audio port was spotted, but Microsoft confirmed this is not going to be in the final release.
ca.ign.com ca.ign.com
Click to expand...
Well Optical only exists for legacy system because the quality is way lower than any HDMI or DP... it is a pretty limited option for high quality audio.
 
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juaco1993

juaco1993

Neo Member
BGs BGs could you (as a developer) clarify the claim that Cerny made about PS5's GPU being narrow and fast saying it's more performant (I think he meant more FPS?) Than going wide and slow (more CUs but at lower frequency). Anything you can say is appreciated! And get well soon!!
 
demigod

demigod

Member
Metroiddarks

Metroiddarks

Member
InsiderCA said:
PS5 GPU has better performance than XSX GPU

Click to expand...


Please dont be like those xbox one fans in the 2013, XSX is better any extra chip is enough to close the gap to say at equal.

-The geometry chip works in a similar way than Decima engine to remove geometry which doesn't appears in the camera and also help in other
things (Sorry If I am wrong about that feature in the Decima engine).

-That audio chip looks good but as I know XSX has the same so in the end doesn't matter even if quality is better in Sony.

-The IO doesn't need to use a core of CPU for the work with SSD but XSX only needs if I remember 10% of one zen core.

In the end Sony prefer go for a cheap gpu and also looks like that back compatibility play agains PS5, because in the personal
I care more the raytracing future than a ssd speed yeah will load so fast many details but that will be limited by those TF.

The good thing of not have loyalty to any company is I dont care to have a prefer console a ps4 now I will buy my games for XSX and
wait if play had a good exclusive.

But that not means XSX wins the generation just looks switch, that little tegra chip smash xbox one sales in less than 3 years and with worst services.

For me only I can save the SSD speed the other features well :
 
Sinthor

Sinthor

Gold Member
Well, I've evaluated from earlier today and here are my thoughts now.

1. I'm happy with the PS5. It's very powerful and has a lot of cool things going for it. I think the only "disappointment" is from people who drove up expectations too high. Also, MS really went all out with their 12 TF GPU. If you think back though, lots of people before either was revealed were saying that 10 would be a good target- some even arguing that was probably a tad high.

2. I believe we will need to hear more from actual developers but all the rumors and leaks of the boxes being 'neck and neck' make sense now. PS5 is going for more bandwidth oriented approach and MS (no secret) is going for raw power. They both seem to have hit the target. Bottom line in the end, we'll have to see the games.

3. As long as devs can hit the 60fps at 4k mark like they've been saying they are without issue, it will be all good. We already know that both machines have more than enough power to do native 4k at 60fps. So that's good too.

4. I think the option to expand the SSD storage internally as well as the external HD usage is a great step by Sony. People have been asking for that for YEARS. We will have that now.

5. On the negative side, Sony really shot themselves in the foot with this "reveal." Showing no actual PS5 tech demos, or ANYTHING really related to the box came off poorly next to Microsoft's extensive 'show and tell' performances. They can fix this rather easily, especially since this audience was mostly just the hard core hopeless cases like myself, but they need to get some demos out there and start showing some indication of what this box will actually do. That will go a long way to calming people down.

6. Right now what I'm seeing fits Sony targeting the $399 or lower price point and MS targeting $499 or higher. If demos are even relatively even, it will be hard for MS to make any marketshare inroads. Unless of course they do release some low power $299 box. Not sure what the benefit would be for them though. That would just guarantee that they don't sell many of the Series X and sell mostly the lower end box. And if people are thinking that 10+TF isn't enough power I don't even want to know what they'd say about a box that was 6 or so. And it would HAVE to be significantly less powerful for MS to be able to price it that much cheaper. We shall see.

Bottom line, this is mostly about the ecosystem and games for both "sides." I think both will be very happy with what they'll get and it will be very interesting to see all the demos and such as we get closer to release. Hopefully devs can start releasing footage of what they're working on now? Want to start seeing what we'll be getting!
 
joe_zazen

joe_zazen

Member
Reindeer said:
Sony PR has been largely absent for the last two years, it's almost like they're resting on their laurels.
Click to expand...

i think they fired all of them because sony is run by mentally ill penny pinchers (head of sony has to check the coin return on every vending machine he passes).

PR is prolly handled by lowballing desperate Task Rabbits.
 
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longdi

longdi

Banned
juaco1993 said:
BGs BGs could you (as a developer) clarify the claim that Cerny made about PS5's GPU being narrow and fast saying it's more performant (I think he meant more FPS?) Than going wide and slow (more CUs but at lower frequency). Anything you can say is appreciated! And get well soon!!
Click to expand...
It is just bad engineering choice made by Mark.

They clearly targeted the $399 msrp with break even or small profit.

MS targeted the same X1x $499 philosophy with losses on hardware.

The next gen battle lines were drawn early with the refresh consoles.

Sony was complacent and expect PS fans to eat at their hands. I think this will prove them wrong.

Now with escalating bom prices of nand and cooling solution. I doubt Sony can hit the $399 sweet spot

Microsoft will see a loss for every Xbox One X unit it sells.

This was confirmed to Business Insider during an interview with Phil Spencer, who simply said "No" when asked if the platform holder would make any money from sales of its upcoming console.
Click to expand...
 
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Shmunter

Shmunter

Member
juaco1993 said:
BGs BGs could you (as a developer) clarify the claim that Cerny made about PS5's GPU being narrow and fast saying it's more performant (I think he meant more FPS?) Than going wide and slow (more CUs but at lower frequency). Anything you can say is appreciated! And get well soon!!
Click to expand...
Traditionally ‘less but faster is better’ has always been the theory. Workload doesn’t need to be diced out out and synchronised. More cores has always been the Solution to not being able to push clock speeds to infinity, a workaround.
 
Apollo Helios

Apollo Helios

Member
So I watched Cerny sermon again (lol that sounded more clever in my mind) and I realized how he deliberately calls both the GPU and CPU clocks as their caps and their continuous boost is explained as hitting these clocks more consistently rather than throttling.

Then I watched DF Direct starting at 6:40 and Rich is saying the clocks are not bound to thermals at all and unchanging because of ambient temps but rather it is bound by power profiles that developers are controlling (says is a little bit earlier in the video).
So, when the console is at a map screen and left uncapped, in PS4 era it goes into dryer mode as the fan spins at maximum, but here developers are going to make the map screen at a lower power profile so it down clocks accordingly.

My main takeaway is both the cooling system and the SoC is designed to give the cap clocks whenever necessary but scale back when it isn't.
Like for example if a 2D platform with no bells and whistles is being played, the power profile will actively down clock the SoC to a level it is consistently hitting 60fps or 30fps whatever the design choice is for that game.
On the other hand when the upcoming God of War sequel is playing and the frame is in a place where it needs to eke out every last bit of everything, the power profile stop down clocking and put the GPU at it's capped clock of 2.23GHz and keep it there. Cooling solution, the one that has a goddamn patent for, must be good enough to sustain those clocks for quite a period of time if the power profile deems necessary, and at this capped clocks the performance is whatever it is; rock solid 60, some frames dropped 60s, mid 50s, choppy 40-60... whatever the frame time and fps is it will deliver that GPU cap clock consistently as long as whatever on the screen needs it. Then when you open up your map, it is not necessary to push those cap clocks anymore and power profile will kick it down.

It is actually a clever design to target power instead of thermals if they engineered a cooling solution that will handle continuous cap clocks.
 
K

ksdixon

Member
hang on... sony said it still has usb3 backwards compatability for ps4 game installs/saves, save the more precious SSD space for the PS5 games that can better take advantage etc, something like that, right?

... can I not run my PS4 games and savedata from the new SSD? I mostly got digital on sales this gen. And if I can't, if I have to run PS4 stuff on PS5 through an external hdd, well that's not gonna make use of any of the SSD load-time improvements, is it?

Am I misunderstanding what they said?
 
Joey.

Joey.

Member
Just watching some tech specs videos...pretty unanimous that XSX is significantly more powerful than the PS5. However, apparently the PS4 was even more powerful than the X1 in margin. Overall...did you see a huge difference? I mean I feel like things were pretty comparable just Sony has some of the best studios in the world and got the best out of it and their first party exclusives really shun. However, for multi plats...was there any major difference?

Many tech guys are saying XSX went for raw power at spared no expense, its clearly a monster of a machine. However it is expected to cost more and how much of that power will we actually see/notice/experience. PS5 went the route of obviously less powerful but faster SSD for a presumably cheaper price.

I don't think this gen is settled just yet.
Just as of now, Microsoft > Sony for consumer/customer relations. That's a fact.
Excited to hear more from each console. I'm still an undecided day one buyer.
 
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MARTYWOLF

MARTYWOLF

Member
Extra storage for both consoles are gonna cost a pretty penny without a doubt I hope both offer a 2tb solution within a year of release, But anyway with ps5 gpu being clocked up it negates some difference besides the RAW power,

I wonder if xsx ssd will hold back load times for next gen? Id suspect it shouldnt affect ps5


hmVQobb.jpg


Hzi3Eo3.jpg


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PWdoD0I.jpg
 
P

psorcerer

Banned
MARTYWOLF said:
Extra storage for both consoles are gonna cost a pretty penny without a doubt I hope both offer a 2tb solution within a year of release, But anyway with ps5 gpu being clocked up it negates some difference besides the RAW power,

I wonder if xsx ssd will hold back load times for next gen? Id suspect it shouldnt affect ps5


hmVQobb.jpg


Hzi3Eo3.jpg


hEveZDY.jpg


PWdoD0I.jpg
Click to expand...

Both are 64 ROPs
Pixel fillrate for XSeX is 116.8
 
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Reindeer

Reindeer

Member
pawel86ck said:
Sony build sound chip that will free up hardware resources and 2.2GHz clock should also help, so although FLOPS suggest XSX is faster in reality both consoles will offer similar performance anyway. I'm happy with the specs on both consoles.
Click to expand...
Xbox has an audio chip too.
 
kyliethicc

kyliethicc

Member
Jman1553 said:
So if I heard the presentation right...
36 RDNA 2 CUs = 58 GCN CUs...?
Would that make RDNA2 1.6x the performance of GCN?
If so (and I doubt it, I know nothing about this stuff) a PS5 would be 16.5TFLOPS using GCN, and Series X would be 19.5
That would also make sense with the whole "Gears 5 on Xbox One X runs 4k 30fps while Series X is 4k ~100fps"

That's nuts.

Also, it definitely sounds like those "top 100" PS4 games was for PS5 enhancements, not that the PS5 can only currently run 100 PS4 games.
We still need insight on that.
Click to expand...

“Running PS4 and PS4 (Pro) titles at boosted frequencies has also added complexity. The boost is truly massive this time around and some game code just can’t handle it. Testing has to be done on a title by title basis. Results are excellent though. We recently took a look at the top 100 PS4 titles as ranked by playtime and were expecting almost all of them to be playable at launch on PS5.” - Mark Cerny

So the “running PS4 titles at boosted frequencies” adding complexity implies it HAS to add complexity because it can’t run at a lower frequency. Does this mean the PS5 can only run PS4 games using legacy logic but at boosted clocks? Not lower legacy clocks? So the PS5 can only play some PS4 games but they’ll be boosted?
 
01011001

01011001

Banned
pawel86ck said:
Sony build sound chip that will free up hardware resources and 2.2GHz clock should also help, so although FLOPS suggest XSX is faster in reality both consoles will offer similar performance anyway. I'm happy with the specs on both consoles.
Click to expand...
both have dedicated audio processors.
 
thicc_girls_are_teh_best

thicc_girls_are_teh_best

Member
Shmunter said:
Traditionally ‘less but faster is better’ has always been the theory. Workload doesn’t need to be diced out out and synchronised. More cores has always been the Solution to not being able to push clock speeds to infinity, a workaround.
Click to expand...

Dunno; if you look back far enough I think we can really ask this question but I feel overall neither approach is better than the other except for specific types of game design and approaches.

I think "narrow and fast" as the prevailing design philosophy was more true when Moore's Law was stronger, and system performance was almost exclusively driven by CPU speed. Even then, you had cases where both approaches would essentially even things out. SNES (wide and slow) vs Genesis (narrow and fast) is probably the best example because there were areas SNES had an obvious advantage in and other areas where Genesis had an obvious advantage in.

With today's setups and multi-core CPUs/massively parallel GPUs, wide and slow makes a lot of sense. Narrow and fast is probably just seen as prevailing because a good chunk of devs come from the older days where that may've been the norm for them. Programming for multi-threaded, multi-core and highly parallel architectures is pretty recent in terms of total game dev history, because it only became consistently mainstream with 7th and 8th gen. Before that you'd get a system here or there where it was the norm (SNES as balanced wide & slow, Saturn as an example of somewhat cumbersome wide & slow, etc.), but it wasn't as standard as it's become in system architectures today.
 
Shmunter

Shmunter

Member
thicc_girls_are_teh_best said:
Dunno; if you look back far enough I think we can really ask this question but I feel overall neither approach is better than the other except for specific types of game design and approaches.

I think "narrow and fast" as the prevailing design philosophy was more true when Moore's Law was stronger, and system performance was almost exclusively driven by CPU speed. Even then, you had cases where both approaches would essentially even things out. SNES (wide and slow) vs Genesis (narrow and fast) is probably the best example because there were areas SNES had an obvious advantage in and other areas where Genesis had an obvious advantage in.

With today's setups and multi-core CPUs/massively parallel GPUs, wide and slow makes a lot of sense. Narrow and fast is probably just seen as prevailing because a good chunk of devs come from the older days where that may've been the norm for them. Programming for multi-threaded, multi-core and highly parallel architectures is pretty recent in terms of total game dev history, because it only became consistently mainstream with 7th and 8th gen. Before that you'd get a system here or there where it was the norm (SNES as balanced wide & slow, Saturn as an example of somewhat cumbersome wide & slow, etc.), but it wasn't as standard as it's become in system architectures today.
Click to expand...
Indeed spreading load needs to happen with purpose built co-processors that do things better than a single processor. But if you're talking like for like i.e. more cpu cores vs less but faster cpu cores then simple is probably still preferred where available. I'm not technical enough, just looking at it from a common sense perspective. Besides Cerney himself said it in the presentation, unless he's some kind of hack or spinning PR.
 
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Rusco Da Vino

Rusco Da Vino

Member
FrozenFlame said:
No, this is a learning experience for all. People need to start filtering the leaks they get and leakers need to learn that not everything they get second hand is true. I know this from experience, difference is that i keep it to myself.
Click to expand...

Why dont you stop providing your cheesy moral lessons here, apply them for yourself so you dont get banned once again and enjoy a few lessons with BoB?

He can help you to find yourself ;)

eXz7Jny.gif
 
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Apollo Helios

Apollo Helios

Member
D dark10x btw looking at your PS5 spec page I see that the die size is missing. Is that not provided to you? Or is it part of the second round of reveals or something. As I'm suspecting although PS5 36CU < SeX 56CU their die size could actually be other way around with all the PS5's 62% enlarged CUs and custom made on-die I/O chips and all.

If true that means Sony not only put 20CU worth of custom hw there but also their 36 CUs are somehow supercharged and not exactly base RDNA2 CUs at all, like the ones MS is using for their brute force approach.
 
SlimySnake

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Apollo Helios said:
D dark10x btw looking at your PS5 spec page I see that the die size is missing. Is that not provided to you? Or is it part of the second round of reveals or something. As I'm suspecting although PS5 36CU < SeX 56CU their die size could actually be other way around with all the PS5's 62% enlarged CUs and custom made on-die I/O chips and all.

If true that means Sony not only put 20CU worth of custom hw there but also their 36 CUs are somehow supercharged and not exactly base RDNA2 CUs at all, like the ones MS is using for their brute force approach.
Click to expand...
no. Both CUs are the same. Ms CUs are just as big.

Sony did waste a lot of die space on custom ssd stuff instead of more CUs because they are idiots.
 
Shmunter

Shmunter

Member
SlimySnake said:
no. Both CUs are the same. Ms CUs are just as big.

Sony did waste a lot of die space on custom ssd stuff instead of more CUs because they are idiots.
Click to expand...
Savage! But lets reserve judgement for the real world if possible.

3 extra TF's a paradigm shift don't make. But the custom Sony shit has potential in offering meaningful differentiation. Not saying it will, but the geek in me longs for something fresh.
 
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Apollo Helios

Apollo Helios

Member
SlimySnake said:
no. Both CUs are the same. Ms CUs are just as big.

Sony did waste a lot of die space on custom ssd stuff instead of more CUs because they are idiots.
Click to expand...
No you don't know both CUs are the same, we need either a die shot or official confirmation for that to be a fact. If PS5 die size is not revealed I sniff something interesting. As 20 CUs are supposed to be a lot of space and seems either that custom I/O Complex is HUGE, or CUs are larger than normal hence supercharged.

Either way a huge amount of die space for something we don't know about (I/O Complex) or don't fully know about (Bigger CUs) needs to be explored and speculated here.

D dark10x care to comment pls? what is ps5 die size?
 
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Andodalf

Andodalf

Banned
Man, looking back on this thread is a goldmine, So many posts saying that anyone who thinks that Github is even close to right is an idiot, the PS5 would never have only 36 CUs, the margin has to be very close if somehow the XSX is on top, PS5 has to be more powerful, PS5 must have better RT, Xbox ads said "our" instead of "the" so they already admitted they're less powerful. No point in quoting them as most of these posters are probably in hiding, but it does make for a good chuckle, and maybe some additions to the ignore list.
 
Shmunter

Shmunter

Member
Apollo Helios said:
No you don't know both CUs are the same, we need either a die shot or official confirmation for that to be a fact. If PS5 die size is not revealed I sniff something interesting. As 20 CUs are supposed to be a lot of space and seems either that custom I/O Complex is HUGE, or CUs are larger than normal hence supercharged.

Either way a huge amount of die space for something we don't know about (I/O Complex) or don't fully know about (Bigger CUs) needs to be explored and speculated here.

D dark10x care to comment pls? what is ps5 die size?
Click to expand...
He compared it to PS4 CU's. Can we extrapolate from there?
 
LiquidRex

LiquidRex

Member
Reindeer said:
Both consoles should be very easy to develop for since they are basically PCs with some modification. PS5 does sound more funky in its design and might need more time for developers to get the most out of it.
Click to expand...
The problem is devs that had the dev kit stated the PS5 is the easiest console they've had to use.... So what changed 🤔
 
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Apollo Helios

Apollo Helios

Member
Shmunter said:
He compared it to PS4 CU's. Can we extrapolate from there?
Click to expand...
Still we don't know the die size of PS5 and I'm asking if he knows to compare it to SeX, but currently only have their comparison example in hand so basically need more info and meanwhile I'm free to speculate.
 
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