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[DaGwaphics]

So all these stupid numbers I dont understand, coming out of today what are the positives the ps5 has going forward with their hardware specs released today? Serious question because again I dont understand numbers

Super fast SSD, probably $399.

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

Gives insight and it's what I thought. This right here needs to be talked about more. It's basically freeing up gpu intensive stuff and allowing the gpu to focus on other things so in the end it looks like psv might be just as powerful or who knows even more.

Well let's not get ahead of ourselves. It might help even the playing field GPU wise though. Like make up 1tf or something

 

[travisktl]

I'm still confused about backwards compatibility on PS5 and SX. Can we play games from the SSD, or we have use an external HDD?

You can play the PS4 games directly off of the SSD, but Cerny recommended putting them on an external drive, so you can use the SSD space for PS5 games.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

SmartShift was designed to take off strain from GPU by reducing CPU performance and vice versa. This was designed to maintain good thermals on laptops. This is exactly what PS5 is doing, DF even said PS5 variable frequency is basically AMD SmartShift.

Maintaining good thermals =/= Efficiently budgeting power draw

Look at AMD's website about SmartShirt and tell me what they say SmartShift is for. I want you to CTRL + F "heat", "thermals", "cool", and "temperature" and tell me if you got any hits.

 

[Null_Key]

I'm basing it off why AMD created this solution, it was for laptops and their thermal limitation. Funny enough it shows up on PS5 that has GPU clocked very high.

Thats the thing dude, PS5 had shifted the paradigm with the usage of workload instead of thermal base. It's the polar opposite of how a traditional PC should operate under, therefore I can't formulate what it is until I see further demonstration. In traditional PC a overpowered PC where its thermals are overheating, reduces the power consumption to reduce the workload, but in this layout it uses the workload to determine whether to fully use the Freq or not. Its a product that is unlike any current PC models. In this way the AMD smartshift isn't being used like a laptop to shift the thermals, but rather to shift the workload for appropriate Freq match. It's fascinating, but at the same time i'm cautiously optimistic.

 

[Insiderus]

PS5 GPU has better performance than XSX GPU

 

[Deeper Underground]

So all these stupid numbers I dont understand, coming out of today what are the positives the ps5 has going forward with their hardware specs released today? Serious question because again I dont understand numbers

There are no positives. Sony shot themselves in the foot and this is now a Xbox circlejerk thread. Get with the times Sony Pony.
/s

 

[semicool]

Thermals have to do with how much heat is produced.

SmartShift addresses power draw which is entirely different from thermals. In the case for the PS5, its power draw is dependent on its power supply.

Yeah it's both. There's a link between the two. Laptops are more limited only by choice to some degree, on their power supply , the ps5 isn't as necessarily limited, I'd wager it's more thermal related otherwise they'd increase their power draw most likely, increase their power budget, not as easily done on a laptop....but there are other additional reasons for bespoke Smartshift, not just one like you might be implying and they, power draw and thermals, sure as hell arent mutually exclusive but quite the opposite.

 

[On Demand]

you can play bc games from hdd but you won't get faster load times

SeX. If you want to play it with the perks, faster loading time etc.... it has to be installed on the internal SSD or on the external custom Seagate SSD. If you want to play games without perks, it sounds like you can run the games straight off a normal external HDD.

You can play the PS4 games directly off of the SSD, but Cerny recommended putting them on an external drive, so you can use the SSD space for PS5 games.

Thankfully. All this external storage talk had me worried for a second.

 

[Reindeer]

Maintaining good thermals =/= Efficiently budgeting power draw

Look at AMD's website about SmartShirt and tell me what they say SmartShift is for. I want you to CTRL + F "heat", "thermals", "cool", and "temperature" and tell me if you got any hits.

You missing the point. DF said that with PS5 both CPU and GPU cannot function at boost max clocks at the same time, this is obviously due to thermal limitation.

 

[ethomaz]

what do you mean by not sustainable? because it is sustainable if needed, it depends on workload and cooling capacity and also capped at 2223mhz.

It is not dependent of temperature or cooling capacity.

Just workload so devs have the control.

 

[Null_Key]

Tommy Fisher after his wrong PS prediction

 

[B_Boss]

i feel mark cerny has really made this developer friendly. he cares about what developers what the most and you can really see it in the presentation.

Hell ever since day one with that guy. I’d love a playstation documentary of his developer visits and discussions (whatever is permissibly legal of course lol). He is passionate about what devs want and it seems they didn’t care to have “higher teraflops” ? Perhaps if (hypothetically) they did want a stronger GPU, they would’ve recurved it. My speculation and nothing more.

 

[TheStruggler]

Super fast SSD, probably $399.

What does a fast SSD mean for fhe future of gaming and its accomplishments?

 

[M-V2]

This is from Days Gone, this was made on 1.8tf (GCN), better not downplay the ps5, remember Sony has beasts not devs under their sleeve.

 

[Reindeer]

Thats the thing dude, PS5 had shifted the paradigm with the usage of workload instead of thermal base. It's the polar opposite of how a traditional PC should operate under, therefore I can't formulate what it is until I see further demonstration. In traditional PC a overpowered PC where its thermals are overheating, reduces the power consumption to reduce the workload, but in this layout it uses the workload to determine whether to fully use the Freq or not. Its a product that is unlike any current PC models. In this way the AMD smartshift isn't being used like a laptop to shift the thermals, but rather to shift the workload for appropriate Freq match. It's fascinating, but at the same time i'm cautiously optimistic.

On Laptops it gives more performance by prioritising and making sure you have no bottleneck. This in time ensures good thermals. PS5 is unable to maintain boost clock speed of both CPU and GPU at the same time and that's proof of there being thermal limitations.

 

[CJY]

DF themselves said that it's basically AMD SmartShift technology. Just use your brain, why can't the console hit both max clocks for both GPU and CPU and has to have one give in to the other? It's obviously thermal limitation that is being taken into account or else it wouldn't be a problem. This is exactly how SmartShift functions, Cerny just dressed it as something else. Sure, you can say it's for balance and other BS, but not being able to maintain max boost performance for both CPU and GPU at the same time can only mean thermals. Now thermals maybe isn't the only reason they are doing this and this way they can get more out of the system, but thermals is definitely a part of it. Hint: Those GPU clocks have a lot to do with it imo.

I know they are using SmartShift tech, and that is the reason why AMD developed it, but PS5 boost isn't boost in the traditional sense and the PS5 APU has a constant power delivery mechanism. Cerny clearly stated that the cooling of the system has been matched by an appropriate solution and that power delivery is conducted in a controllable and repeatable way, so thermals obviously just isn't the whole picture. Sure, they play a factor, as they do in every enclosed system, but it's just simply not the whole picture, that's all I'm saying. SmartShift is a good technology that Sony are implementing to manage the power delivery between the CPU and GPU, sure, but what you're saying is, Sony shouldn't use it at all and just peg the GPU & CPU to the max of their capability (within thermal constraints) at all times and be done with it? Instead of being smart about it and maximising the potential of what they have?

I dunno man, is just sounds smart and efficient to me and good system design. That it's more of a positive than a negative. Sure, it doesn't make it faster than the XSX in terms of GPU performance, but then, it doesn't have to be either.

 

[Null_Key]

On Laptops it gives more performance by prioritising and making sure you have no bottleneck. This in time ensures good thermals. PS5 is unable to maintain boost clock speed of both CPU and GPU at the same time and that's proof of there being thermal limitations.

Agree to disagree at this point, It's not going to go anywhere. Go bother Tommy Fisher or something

 

[Reindeer]

This is from Days Gone, this was made on 1.8tf (GCN), better not downplay the ps5, remember Sony has beasts not devs under their sleeve.

Nobody is downplaying their devs, we're downplaying their console

 

[icerock]

Gives insight and it's what I thought. This right here needs to be talked about more. It's basically freeing up gpu intensive stuff and allowing the gpu to focus on other things so in the end it looks like psv might be just as powerful or who knows even more.

No amount of engineering choices and decisions can cover up for pure power. Current PS5 is a Frankenstein product of once 2019 SKU and retail SKU, sooner you accept it the better.

Its not ideal but no where the disaster as Internet seems to perceive. The only difference one will notice (or not) while playing 3rd party stuff on PS5 v Series X is that one will play at a slightly worse resolution. Basically, 1800p v 2160p.

 

[Reindeer]

one will play at a slightly worse resolution. Basically, 1800p v 2160p.

Finally we agree on something. There shouldn't be too much difference beyond resolution and maybe ray tracing effects.

 

[HawarMiran]

Nobody is downplaying their devs, we're downplaying their console

how can you downplay something you can't even fully grasp? Are you a tech guy? Serious question.

 

[Reindeer]

how can you downplay something you can't even fully grasp? Are you a tech guy? Serious question.

It was a joke, the emoji was the hint

 

[M-V2]

Nobody is downplaying their devs, we're downplaying their console

Their console is a beast, at the beginning I thought is a bit odd to do such thing, but now after hearing multiple trusted sources I believe Sony is going in a different route, you wanna downplay their console? Go a head I'm not gonna play that game with you, because my perspective on Sony's console is different than yours.

 

[Jman1553]

I think they were just talking transistor count per CU.

Ah! Good point.
Regardless, improvements to architecture is interesting. I hope to see another Digital Foundry video about the subject!

 

[devilNprada]

Its not ideal but no where the disaster as Internet seems to perceive. The only difference one will notice (or not) while playing 3rd party stuff on PS5 v Series X is that one will play at a slightly worse resolution. Basically, 1800p v 2160p.

the price could be right though.....

 

[johnjohn]

how did I have a bad day? you braindamaged cunts think everyone who is annoyed by you is a Sony fanboy? Look at my posts about what I was saying about the PS5. Then try again lil boy

Maybe you just got up on the wrong side of the bed lol.

 

[HawarMiran]

It was a joke, the emoji was the hint

I was just asking man . Because some people judge it already as if they are familiar with engineering and programming etc.

 

[Clintizzle]

Lol Sony spent all their money on R&D for the Sony Car.

Disappointing

 

[mitchman]

TDP is 150W vs 180X for XSX

So power draw at 200W vs 230W roughly for the whole console then?

 

[ResilientBanana]

PS5 GPU has better performance than XSX GPU

Who's seriously burping up this smoke that's being blown up their ass?

 

[CJY]

So power draw at 200W vs 230W roughly for the whole console then?

Dunno, maybe the numbers I saw were bogus. Better to wait for confirmed figures.

 

[dangopee]

No amount of engineering choices and decisions can cover up for pure power. Current PS5 is a Frankenstein product of once 2019 SKU and retail SKU, sooner you accept it the better.

Its not ideal but no where the disaster as Internet seems to perceive. The only difference one will notice (or not) while playing 3rd party stuff on PS5 v Series X is that one will play at a slightly worse resolution. Basically, 1800p v 2160p.

I don't think either console will have trouble hitting 4K TBH. I don't see another resolutiongate happening this time. PS5 will just have lesser effects and/or lower antialiasing level etc and possibly less stable frame rate. But also maybe less pop in and stuttering. Although I don't think either console has en excuse for stuttering, even the XSX SSD is still very fast.

 

[mitchman]

PS5 GPU has better performance than XSX GPU

In some parts of the GPU, for sure. Question is if that matters.

 

[Reindeer]

Their console is a beast, at the beginning I thought is a bit odd to do such thing, but now after hearing multiple trusted sources I believe Sony is going in a different route, you wanna downplay their console? Go a head I'm not gonna play that game with you, because my perspective on Sony's console is different than yours.

PS5 is 15-20% less powerful than Series X and there's no way around it, even if some people try to make it seem like PS5 SSD is gonna replace GPU and CPU. It's not a massive difference and beyond slight lower resolution and lower quality ray tracing (often not clear to naked eye) there shouldn't be much difference.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

You missing the point. DF said that with PS5 both CPU and GPU cannot function at boost max clocks at the same time, this is obviously due to thermal limitation power draw limitation.

If you want to prove your claim, you need to provide the evidence, not base it all on conjecture and assertions. The power supply feeds the system a certain amount of watts which then, needs to be budgeted to different parts. SmartShift addresses this, the budgeting.

Thermal limitation has more to do with parts able to run at certain frequencies or otherwise, there would be too much heat produced which will lead to board flexing. SmartShift does not address limiting heat production. Limiting heat production may be a consequence of using SmartShift. But just because it is a consequence, that does not mean that was what SmartShift was designed for.

 

[Iced Arcade]

All the dead birds and black feathers in here

 

[ethomaz]

Wait but some of the ram on Xbox is slower?

RAM is odd.

While your game using up 10GB the Xbox has clear advantage if it needed more RAM then PS5 memory system can show advantage.

Let’s how devs will do with both setup.

 

[longdi]

PS5 is 15-20% less powerful than Series X and there's no way around it, even if some people try to make it seem like PS5 SSD is gonna replace GPU and CPU. It's not a massive difference and beyond slight lower resolution and lower quality ray tracing there shouldn't be much difference.

The worrying part this showed there is malaise within SCE.

Not only by delivering an under powered console, but how they went about doing it.

Even this gdc was terrible PR. Ssd ssd ssd and nothing of note was shown. Game developers either already have the SDK or they don't and that short 1hr talk shown nothing to those that don't have SDK.

Totally pointless and confused presentation. Who was it for?

Rot runs deep inside SCE now

 

[Null_Key]

If you want to prove your claim, you need to provide the evidence, not base it all on conjecture and assertions. The power supply feeds the system a certain amount of watts which then, needs to be budgeted to different parts. SmartShift addresses this, the budgeting.

Thermal limitation has more to do with parts able to run at certain frequencies or otherwise, there would be too much heat produced which will lead to board flexing. SmartShift does not address limiting heat production. Limiting heat production may be a consequence of using SmartShift. But just because it is a consequence, that does not mean that was what SmartShift was designed for.

Dude I tried as well, just let it go. No point in talking to a brick wall.

 

[Reindeer]

If you want to prove your claim, you need to provide the evidence, not base it all on conjecture and assertions. The power supply feeds the system a certain amount of watts which then, needs to be budgeted to different parts. SmartShift addresses this, the budgeting.

Thermal limitation has more to do with parts able to run at certain frequencies or otherwise, there would be too much heat produced which will lead to board flexing. SmartShift does not address limiting heat production. Limiting heat production may be a consequence of using SmartShift. But just because it is a consequence, that does not mean that was what SmartShift was designed for.

There's a reason why SmartShift was designed for Laptops and not for Desktop PCs. I'll let you figure that one out on your own.

 

[CJY]

Reindeer , Tripolygon said this, in case you missed it:

People not understanding what was presented to them. No the PS5 is not 9.2TF or 8TF, it is 10.23TF theoretical TF just like XSX is 12.155 theoretical TF.

Variable in this sense does not mean the GPU throttles down and performance of the game suffers. Its not like in mobile SoC where the cpu and gpu throttle up for a couple of seconds then throttle down to save power.

First is

Smart-shift AMD tech. The GPU and CPU no longer have independent fixed power budget. Both processors share a common power budget but of course the GPU will demand more than the CPU. This means that when the CPU is not performing intensive tasks, more power will be pushed into the GPU and when the GPU is not performing intensive task and then the CPU gets more if it needs it. No two games or parts of a game demands the same amount of processing power, this allows for dynamic power management between CPU and GPU for any given moment.

Second is Variable Frequency

The GPU and CPU have a capped frequency that all SoC must be able to hit. 3.5GHz CPU and 2.23GHz (10.28TF performance) for GPU. This is the thermal limit of the designed cooling system. It does not matter what environment you place the system within normal use case, it should be able to handle the heat generated from pushing the SoC to the capped 3.5GHz CPU and 2.23GHz GPU. This means that rather than running the GPU and CPU at a constant frequency while varying the power based on workload, they instead supply both CPU and GPU a constant power, enough to reach 3.5 and 2.23 GHz for GPU and CPU but allow the frequency to change based on workload.

Think of it like dynamic resolution, instead of running the game at 1080p constant and tearing a frame or dropping frame rate, you lower the resolution along any of the axis to maintain framerate.

In essence, PS4 runs at a constant 1.6GHz CPU and 800MHz GPU but the power consumed depends on the game. That is why you hear fan ramp up for some games and not others. With PS5 they pushed the system to a limit and designed the cooling system to handle that limit but the CPU and GPU can control their frequency based on the given workload it is doing. It does not mean PS5 will suddenly drop to 8TF because it over heats. No it means the frequency can drop because the game does not demand much from the SoC.

Hope that helps explain some stuff based on how i as a lay person understands it.

It's good what he wrote, but I'm not sure it makes everything clear yet either. There are still many unknowns, but that's the point. There is something going on here that is interesting and new and we should totally hold off on declaring this or that implementation being shit for this reason or that. Time will reveal all.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

There's a reason why SmartShift was designed for Laptops and not for Desktop PCs. I'll let you figure that one out on your own.

Because when laptops run on batteries, the power draw is lower than when they are plugged in with their external power bricks.

 

[Reindeer]

The worrying part this showed there is malaise within SCE.

Not only by delivering an under powered console, but how they went about doing it.

Even this gdc was terrible PR. Ssd ssd ssd and nothing of note was shown. Game developers either already have the SDK or they don't and that short 1hr talk shown nothing to those that don't have SDK.

Totally pointless and confused presentation. Who was it for?

Rot runs deep inside SCE now

Sony PR has been largely absent for the last two years, it's almost like they're resting on their laurels.

 

[icerock]

I don't think either console will have trouble hitting 4K TBH. I don't see another resolutiongate happening this time. PS5 will just have lesser effects and/or lower antialiasing level etc and possibly less stable frame rate. But also maybe less pop in and stuttering. Although I don't think either console has en excuse for stuttering, even the XSX SSD is still very fast.

PS5 will very much have trouble hitting native 4K for any proper next-gen game, look at memory bandwidth. That’s not enough to feed CPU, GPU. Any RT effects will also drain that bandwidth quickly.

Also, I disagree any dev would compromise on visual effects/particles/quality. They’ll just use checkerboard rendering, no need to waste bandwidth pushing those resolutions when smarter rendering techniques can do the job.

Besides, once this spec-wankery is done with in coming weeks and folks finally see the games. They’ll realise how similar they look and will have to run to DF to see Richard tell them how Series X is rendering that one blade of grass at a slightly higher fidelity than PS5

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Don’t know if this has been shared or not, can’t keep up with this thread.

No, Xbox Series X Will Not Have An Optical Audio Port - IGN

During Microsoft's Game Stack Live presentation an Xbox Series X with an S/PDIF optical audio port was spotted, but Microsoft confirmed this is not going to be in the final release.

ca.ign.com

 

[Reindeer]

Because when laptops run on batteries, the power draw is lower than when they are plugged in with their external power bricks.

Yeah.... doubt that's why.

 

[MarkMe2525]

Probably 15-20 and 25 max.

How can the minimum be 15 when you just said at at full throttle the minimum is 18?

 

[The Mad Draklor]

Yeah.... doubt that's why.

Citation needed.

 

[Gamernyc78]

No amount of engineering choices and decisions can cover up for pure power. Current PS5 is a Frankenstein product of once 2019 SKU and retail SKU, sooner you accept it the better.

Its not ideal but no where the disaster as Internet seems to perceive. The only difference one will notice (or not) while playing 3rd party stuff on PS5 v Series X is that one will play at a slightly worse resolution. Basically, 1800p v 2160p.

Pribavky true but I'll leave tht to the pros to do the breakdowns. That fast ssd does alot more than just loading thts for sure and no amount of spin can discount that.