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[DForce]

This is objectively false.

Quality assets bog down rendering performance. Quantity of assets are affected by the speed throughput of the I/O system but definitely not quality.

If your GPU is too slow to render 1 billion triangles all casting rays into the scene for ray-traced lighting, the SSD can move the triangles to the GPU, but then the slow GPU will take forever rendering those triangles within a given frame.

False?

In Theory: How SSD Could Radically Change Next-Gen Games Beyond Faster Loading

But the real story here is in fidelity in scope. That's the message that Microsoft wanted to put across in that trailer I reckon. Fidelity of course course speaks for itself, but the scale and scope of what we're seeing here frankly astonishing. And maybe, just maybe this is a vision of how bringing vast datasets from solid state storage directly into the game may make a big difference to the experience we're going to be enjoying in the next generation.

The final part of the video talked about this fidelity and scope and how it would only be possible with the SSD.



But we can't store all of the super detailed high res versions for all objs in memory at once?



Doesn't seem false to him, neither does it seem false to DF. It may not be life like, but it clearly appears better based on what they were able to do on a regular slower storage device.

 

[hyperbertha]

You got me wrong. I meant that dynamic resolution will not just be a choice but the only possibility because developers cannot count on stable processor clocks. P.S: That's not a good thing

So if the clocks were stable what other choices would they have?

 

[hyperbertha]

I see you're restorting to strawmen now. I've never said it "just bigger open worlds".

You said yourself that the SSDs will provide movie quality CGI. You later reversed on that, which is understandable, since it's complete gibberish. After that, you start attacking me telling me to "research" and that I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Then you set up a strawman, and you still have the nerve to call me desperate.

Jesus fucking christ.

You said lesser loading times and bigger open worlds. About the same. And I never reversed anything. I stand by my claim that this gen will bring us much closer (than a trivial ) jump to movie quality than any TF improvement in GPU.

 

[devilNprada]

Series X is more powerful. Games will look and run better on Series X.

What does this even have to do with a PS5 SSD thread?

 

[tryDEATH]

You mentioned all those games had a GPU bottleneck. In what way? Genuinely curious. Please don't say resolution.

Sorry, miss typed that wasn't supposed to include GPU. We never got to a GPU bottleneck in a big title due to Jaguar as much as I am aware. Thanks for point it out.

 

[DForce]

All you provide is a reference to quotes by individuals. That proves nothing.


That a hilarious math. Faster streaming just means the asset is loading faster. The quality of the asset needs to be processed by the GPU. Sure pop in and stuttering caused by asset streaming will be reduced. Thats great but nobody is arguing that.

Again. People in here literally say that actual graphics and quality of assets will improve. Which is utter nonsense.
If you like to buy into the buzzwords by some individuals be my guest. I will believe it when I see it.

And according to devs, what you're saying is false



They work within a budget when it comes to utilizing memory. You can't tell me they're able to use more of that budget and exceeded the limit by streaming data from the SSD.

 

[Dory16]

So if the clocks were stable what other choices would they have?

The only point is they can’t count on maintaining any type of high resolution because they don’t know what they’re working with at any time. It has to be dynamic. It will never be native throughout.

 

[devilNprada]

False?

In Theory: How SSD Could Radically Change Next-Gen Games Beyond Faster Loading


The final part of the video talked about this fidelity and scope and how it would only be possible with the SSD.



But we can't store all of the super detailed high res versions for all objs in memory at once?



Doesn't seem false to him, neither does it seem false to DF. It may not be life like, but it clearly appears better based on what they were able to do on a regular slower storage device.

Some Devs including some 3rd party Devs are excited about the PS5 SSD..... How is that even debatable?

Yes when i want to play a button masher it will be on an xbox... when i want to play a FPS it will be on PC... When i play turned based, it will be on the switch and now when I play an open world RPG it will likely be on a Playstation... I also enjoy board games as much as anything...

I am thinking some people here are just fucking posers...
Edit: Yes i am talking about any so called gamer talking about resolution in an SSD thread

 

[hyperbertha]

The only point is they can’t count on maintaining any type of high resolution because they don’t know what they’re working with at any time. It has to be dynamic. It will never be native throughout.

Its not like this gen has been entirely immune to random fps drops in certain areas and it still remains fully playable. If they choose to keep resolution constant that just means there will fps drips to 25. What I am asking is how exactly does the GPU not being constant make the devs job harder. Genuinely interested to learn more about this.

 

[hyperbertha]

Some Devs including some 3rd party Devs are excited about the PS5 SSD..... How is that even debatable?

Yes when i want to play a button masher it will be on an xbox... when i want to play a FPS it will be on PC... When i play turned based, it will be on the switch and now when I play an open world RPG it will likely be on a Playstation... I also enjoy board games as much as anything...

I am thinking some people here are just fucking posers...
Edit: Yes i am talking about any so called gamer talking about resolution in an SSD thread

Actually button mashers and more linear type of games will be benefiting more visually than open world games from ssds,

 

[Panajev2001a]

Actually button mashers and more linear type of games will be benefiting more visually than open world games from ssds,

I think the amount of procedural content creation in Open World games is quite overstated, but we shall see. More freedom to designers and developers is always better .

 

[DForce]

Some Devs including some 3rd party Devs are excited about the PS5 SSD..... How is that even debatable?

Yes when i want to play a button masher it will be on an xbox... when i want to play a FPS it will be on PC... When i play turned based, it will be on the switch and now when I play an open world RPG it will likely be on a Playstation... I also enjoy board games as much as anything...

I am thinking some people here are just fucking posers...
Edit: Yes i am talking about any so called gamer talking about resolution in an SSD thread

If 4K textures can help games look better on the XB1X compared to the PS5 Pro, then I don't see how anyone can think that having more access to RAM with the help of SSD cannot help the graphical quality of the game.

 

[Dory16]

Its not like this gen has been entirely immune to random fps drops in certain areas and it still remains fully playable. If they choose to keep resolution constant that just means there will fps drips to 25. What I am asking is how exactly does the GPU not being constant make the devs job harder. Genuinely interested to learn more about this.

It’s like trying to accelerate sharply while you’re waiting at a roundabout but not knowing if you Mr car can go from 0 to 60 in 10, 8 or 6 seconds. You risk a serious accident.

 

[hyperbertha]

It’s like trying to accelerate sharply while you’re waiting at a roundabout but not knowing if you Mr car can go from 0 to 60 in 10, 8 or 6 seconds. You risk a serious accident.

If the devs overload the GPU all that can happen is a 'couple' reduction in clock. I don't see what 'accident' can possibly happen other than a reduction in fps. Am I missing something here?

 

[TBiddy]

You said lesser loading times and bigger open worlds. About the same. And I never reversed anything. I stand by my claim that this gen will bring us much closer (than a trivial ) jump to movie quality than any TF improvement in GPU.

I also added the "and such", that you convenietly have forgotten all about. You started by saying that the SSD in the PS5 will bringe us movie quality CGI. Later on you reversed that. And now you suddenly add "TF improvement in GPU" to the mix as well.

I get that you misspoke earlier, but at least have the decency to admit it, instead of going all out on both offensive remarks mounted at my person and on defensive maneuvers such as strawmen and goalpost-shifting.

The bottom line is that your original statement:

You don't see how going from 20 mb to 4 gb per unit space is a dramatic change? If you want movie quality CGI , this is how you get it.

Makes absolutely no sense.

 

[polybius80]

highlighting how open-world games will not allow different looking open-world games, as the data pulled from the SSD would be static data, and open-world games increase details and variety through procedural methods.

on a procedural method of creating an openworld and where the world is static it wont improve but we already do that so we are not designing anything with hig speed in mind, a world where you can change the landscape will indeed require a huge pool of memory and specially if you want to store the data of a very complex world, even as simple as minecraft is(same block repeated over and over with different texture) it shows some delays here and there when loading chunk and if a world is highly complex let say a GTA where as you get close to a building it loads the interior for every building then is usefull to have high speed access as SSD provides we already see games starting to require SSD due to complex worlds

having two consoles with different access speed sure will restrict improvement in PS5 to only less pop-up because third party wont like to design a different approach but we are yet to see what approach they use we dont know if a new approach can beneffit a faster SSD furter without harming the design for a slower, not evey open world game works the same, and lets not forget its a double edged sword, what if they design an approach for PS5 and leave untouched for XBSX? there were games that required HDDs running on xbox 360 that had no HDD is not a new situation and lets not forget that even new openworld games will probably want to target Ps4 and XBone wich will restrict SSD gains at least at the beginning of the generation


SSD will be required with new games but PS5 go one step further, to put into perspective the SSD solution in PS5 is comparable to RAM, not current RAM but similar to 20 years old RAM for example the original xbox had 64 MB of unified RAM with 6.4 GB/s but back then that was used for everything including framebuffers and was indeed considerable fast its a big improvement to have this in several GBs of data and specially because you can store data on it and you can compress data and improve transfers even further

originally open world games rely in chunks of the world one current chunk and at least one ahead and one back that is how games like soul reaver worked in PSone due to memory constraints and access time, the idea is the chunk is big enough that by the time you reach the end the next chunk is already loaded the chunks where static of course because you cant change data in the CD and every change you do to the world have to reside in RAM and take space you may require for something else as memory size and speed improved and HDDS where standardized there was improvements that allowed better more complex openworlds games that required an HDD for example GTAV for a good experience but still the formula of big chunks remained

what happens if we fragmenting the world in big chunks but also fragment chunks in small chunks? due to high speed can we load them faster than the camera moves?, its curious how everybody can see the advantage of tiled textures but nobody thinks a similar approach to world chunks? what happens if a game copy a world to SSD and you can read and modify everything and traverse fast and without compromises like minecraft but looking like GTA and having interiors for every building?, you break a chair the chair stays broken everytime you comes back, you go up the stairs the entire floor is loaded and the floor you came from is unloaded and RAM is used for the details and fast access we are yet to see games designed with this improvements in mind

starcitizen was called a next generation game now, the way they use a different approach for its world breaking the current constraint is indeed a next gen approach and they require SSD for ti to work a faster SSD only will improves things


some devs seem so close minded in how to use the improvements but its normal, its a similar situation to when multiple cores where introduced at first nobody knew what improvements they could use they considered very hard to use, but now is a standard, you wont see most devs talking of the improvements to the open worlds until is implemented in unreal engine and unity

 

[Allandor]

Well the ssds are still not fast enough (latency wise) to directly render from them, so we still need streaming into main memory.
Difference will be, Xbox must stream a bit more ahead (theoretically) but the real question is, how much data can the gpu handle. If things are removed fast from memory, the resources can be used for other stuff, but at the same time, if they are needed again bandwidth is needed to load them again. It will be always a matter of efficiency what remains in memory and what is cleared.
The SSD just reduces the latency so much, that the streaming buffer can be reduced. Also it is not longer needed to load the data in packets and create duplicatss of objects in memory. This will also save a lot of it.
I really don't see why so fast SSDs are needed.

 

[SonGoku]

You mean asset quality?

draw distance

 

[polybius80]

It’s like trying to accelerate sharply while you’re waiting at a roundabout but not knowing if you Mr car can go from 0 to 60 in 10, 8 or 6 seconds. You risk a serious accident.

it doesn't work like that on a GPU, your GPU wont use the full load all the time, in fact what it do is operations you can do a lot of operation but doesn't mean you do all operations possible all the time in the same way as your 500w power supply wont be asked to give 500w all the time its just as much as it can do but your system wont use 500w all the time, rendering doesn't use full power all the time in fact games are constantly skipping parts of the scene and frames are more complex than other frames, having variable clock rate means it can adjust all the GPU to a particular need it can do big jumps this kind of things are automatic it will run at full capacity when it needs but can adjust to low when it doesn't need as much processing power

 

[polybius80]

In the case of the PS5, dynamic resolution won't be a choice. With those variable clocks, it is implicitly designed for fluctuating performance. You speak of dynamic resolution as if it was just an option when the architect of the box says he "expects" the GPU to be at peak performance "most of the time".

dynamic resolution is a choice of the developer there is nothing in the specs of PS5 that imply it had to be dynamic, any game fluctuates the amount of calculations just because PS5 can modify its clock along the power requirements doesn't mean its forced to a particular resolution or dynamic resolution the resolution comes from the size of the framebuffers

yes a GPU(any) on a demanding game will be at peak performance a good chunk of the time there is a huge amounts of videos in youtube with games running with tools to show performance, you can go and see what they do and how it impact memory, framerate, heat, even power consumption and lot of things

 

[it_wasn't_me]

Dictator

I think if a person takes my comment out of context, it makes it sound like I think these consoles will not change open world game design. Which is not what I want to say. So I think a lot of people will disagree with that out of hand. Unfortunately that article also has a title which makes it sound like I think the PS5 will also not change open world design. I definitely think it will (XSX as well).

Devs react to PS5 specs - Twitter edition

I believe Sony's GNM is pretty close (or similar) to Vulkan; Khronos Group recently released Vulkan Ray Tracing so my first guess would be that CNM will feature similar functions

www.resetera.com

 

[TechS3ek]

unless there will be a new method in game designing in which it can takes advatage of SONY's implementation of its SSD, most games will look or run slightly better on XSX, that being said the gap is certainly smaller than what we've had with PS4 Pro vs X1 X.

 

[Allandor]

draw distance

Draw distance is limited by GPU & CPU not HDD/SSD or memory. More details = more things to render. But all those things are already in memory, but just can't be rendered.

 

[SonGoku]

on a procedural method of creating an openworld and where the world is static it wont improve but we already do that so we are not designing anything with high speed in mind

I think the amount of procedural content creation in Open World games is quite overstated, but we shall see. More freedom to designers and developers is always better .

When people read of procedural generation they think of the real time approach, they tend to forget about off line procedural generated art/assets, devs use this approach to help fill vast big worlds and can dedicate way more computational power/time to create higher quality and more diverse assets. This approach also saves console resources.

These offline procedural generated assets will sit on the SSD and be streamed to RAM, so yes SSDs will have a big impact streaming procedurally assets on open worlds as well

 

[SonGoku]

Draw distance is limited by GPU & CPU not HDD/SSD or memory. More details = more things to render. But all those things are already in memory, but just can't be rendered.

Which is what i said... if you follow the thread conversation, streaming can affect draw distance as well, its dependent of all components really (GPU,CPU,RAM,SSD)

 

[Elenchus]

My god can you guys please listen to developers. Please! Stop thinking these next-gen consoles are just your normal PCs that you've had with SSDs for the last 5 years. They aren't. They are on another level. There are a million pieces of evidence that it'll improve graphics if you listen to devs.

Like when devs say, "this SSD is the biggest change I've seen in my 20 years of making games" what do you think that means? How do you interpret that? I know how it makes me feel when I seem them say that. And the last thing I think of is, "well it WON'T change open-world games that much".

You mean all those 1st party Sony devs. I’m shocked. I genuinely expected them to say just the opposite.

Do these devs count as well?

Xbox Series X to PS5 Power Difference 'Quite Staggering'

An ex-Sony game designer shares that he's heard developers say the Xbox Series X advantage over the PS5 is 'quite staggering.'

www.google.com

PS5 SSD May Not Necessarily Translate into Much Quicker Loading Times, Says Remedy Technical Director

The PS5 SSD is much faster theoretically, however whether loading times will be much quicker in games also depends on how much data is in use

www.google.com

Why PS5 SSD May Not Be So Good

The PlayStation 5's SSD has been one of the most-hyped parts of the upcoming console, but one developer says it won't be as revolutionary as all that.

www.google.com

 

[SonGoku]

It’s like trying to accelerate sharply while you’re waiting at a roundabout but not knowing if you Mr car can go from 0 to 60 in 10, 8 or 6 seconds. You risk a serious accident.

FYI devs are in full control of frequencies

You mean all those 1st party Sony devs. I’m shocked. I genuinely expected them to say just the opposite.

Do these devs count as well?

Xbox Series X to PS5 Power Difference 'Quite Staggering'

An ex-Sony game designer shares that he's heard developers say the Xbox Series X advantage over the PS5 is 'quite staggering.'

www.google.com

PS5 SSD May Not Necessarily Translate into Much Quicker Loading Times, Says Remedy Technical Director

The PS5 SSD is much faster theoretically, however whether loading times will be much quicker in games also depends on how much data is in use

www.google.com

Why PS5 SSD May Not Be So Good

The PlayStation 5's SSD has been one of the most-hyped parts of the upcoming console, but one developer says it won't be as revolutionary as all that.

www.google.com

You do realize the last two articles you posted contradict each other? and they are also from before PS5 specs reveal... Lets analyze each

1. Xbox Series X to PS5 Power Difference 'Quite Staggering'
From looking at specs alone we know the power difference is way smaller than last gen.

2. PS5 SSD May Not Necessarily Translate into Much Quicker Loading Times

If games would stay the same in terms of scope and visual quality it’d make loading times be almost unnoticeable and restarting a level could be almost instant [in PS5 games].

However, since more data can be now used there can also be cases where production
might be cheaper and faster when not optimising content, which will lead into having to load much more data, leading back into a situation where you have about the same loading times as today.

Lets analyze the bolded, lets say just for arguments sake that PS5 has 16GB ram available for games, with a typical output of 8GB/s to 9GB/s the entirety of ram can be filled in 1.7 to 2 seconds.

3. Why PS5 SSD May Not Be So Good

“Many games have everything they need in memory already, so it wouldn’t affect much there, but it will be helpful for open world titles which require streaming,” he said. “I’d say it won’t really affect performance much. Mostly it will reduce load times.”

Context: Indie dev speaks from his experience, smaller indie game can have everything they need in ram but that isn't the case for games bigger in scope (AAA games) that rely heavily on streaming. The dev even says so

The big takeaway from this is that gamerant is a garbage click bait site.

 

[semicool]

Major Sony SSD flaw? It breaks down after 40,000 hrs?

An enterprise SSD flaw will brick hardware after exactly 40,000 hours

Hewlett Packard Enterprise (HPE) has warned that certain SSD drives could fail catastrophically if buyers don't take action soon. Due to a firmware bug, the products in question will be bricked exactly 40,000 hours (four years, 206 days and 16 hours) after the SSD has entered service. "After the...

www.engadget.com

Sorry, I could help it

 

[V4skunk]

The easiest way to understand is this.
Current games are limited by what can physically be placed in a level. What I mean is number of unique assets! Like trash cans, trees and textures in an open world game.
You have all noticed the repetitiveness of objects and textures in games.
This new tech will change this because it simply means more assets can be used at once.

 

[CJY]

I think the amount of procedural content creation in Open World games is quite overstated, but we shall see. More freedom to designers and developers is always better .

I found dicktator's comments about the SSD quite telling of where his biases are and it's strange for a person of his with his interests to view next generation open worlds solely through the lens of current-gen development standards. He really just strikes me as a guy with zero imagination.

 

[Shmunter]

I also added the "and such", that you convenietly have forgotten all about. You started by saying that the SSD in the PS5 will bringe us movie quality CGI. Later on you reversed that. And now you suddenly add "TF improvement in GPU" to the mix as well.

I get that you misspoke earlier, but at least have the decency to admit it, instead of going all out on both offensive remarks mounted at my person and on defensive maneuvers such as strawmen and goalpost-shifting.

The bottom line is that your original statement:



Makes absolutely no sense.

Quality will vary across the board, as it does today and always has. But access to large data at speeds never before possible will most certainly facilitate real time gameplay with assets and detail only previously reserved for cut scenes.

That’s something we can all look forward to. More so on PS5 as that’s obviously their system design focus. Software designed for lowest common denominator notwithstanding.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

You mean all those 1st party Sony devs. I’m shocked. I genuinely expected them to say just the opposite.

Do these devs count as well?

Xbox Series X to PS5 Power Difference 'Quite Staggering'

An ex-Sony game designer shares that he's heard developers say the Xbox Series X advantage over the PS5 is 'quite staggering.'

www.google.com

PS5 SSD May Not Necessarily Translate into Much Quicker Loading Times, Says Remedy Technical Director

The PS5 SSD is much faster theoretically, however whether loading times will be much quicker in games also depends on how much data is in use

www.google.com

Why PS5 SSD May Not Be So Good

The PlayStation 5's SSD has been one of the most-hyped parts of the upcoming console, but one developer says it won't be as revolutionary as all that.

www.google.com

 

[Barakov]

Major Sony SSD flaw? It breaks down after 40,000 hrs?

An enterprise SSD flaw will brick hardware after exactly 40,000 hours

Hewlett Packard Enterprise (HPE) has warned that certain SSD drives could fail catastrophically if buyers don't take action soon. Due to a firmware bug, the products in question will be bricked exactly 40,000 hours (four years, 206 days and 16 hours) after the SSD has entered service. "After the...

www.engadget.com

Sorry, I could help it

So we have 4.58 years to enjoy the PS5 SSD speed before it breaks down? Seems legit.

 

[CJY]

snip

Very interesting read. You seem to have some experience or development insight. Thanks for sharing.

 

[DynamiteCop!]

I found dicktator's comments about the SSD quite telling of where his biases are and it's strange for a person of his with his interests to view next generation open worlds solely through the lens of current-gen development standards. He really just strikes me as a guy with zero imagination.

How about you imagine for us what the PS5 SSD subsystem could allow that the Series X's could not.

 

[CJY]

How about you imagine for us what the PS5 SSD subsystem could allow that the Series X's could not.

Well, transferring raw data at 5.5GB/s, for one.

 

[DynamiteCop!]

Well, transferring raw data at 5.5GB/s, for one.

Non-answer, what about game design would differ and be some kind of impossibility for the Series X.

We know the numbers, don't stall.

 

[CJY]

Non-answer, what about game design would differ and be some kind of impossibility for the Series X.

We know the numbers, don't stall.

I already shared my thoughts on the matter in another thread, and the problems with XSX stems a lot further than just transfer speeds.

Ah, still comparing both consoles I see. What's a lot more interesting to me is what is made possible moving from ~50MB/s to ~5.5GB/s. A 100X increase in IO throughput. There is a lot more this than meets the eyes here. Raw IO throughput isn't necessarily the game changer, it's the custom silicon for coherency (scrubber), mapping, file I/O, decompression (all of which is handled by the custom IO block) that makes the data coming from the SSD usable without reprocessing by the CPU. Without addressing these bottlenecks, the C/GPU would be locked up waiting/processing the data and you would see significant performance penalties when zipping data around at lightning fast speeds. In the end, you might end up with actual real-world raw throughput of ~2GB/s of the 5.5GB/s. (I'm making up that figure). Cerny has addressed all these bottlenecks and then some and the SSD has been central to his focus in designing the system and eliminating every conceivable bottleneck.

OK sure, XSX has a lot of these things too. Velocity engine, "Virtual Memory" (i.e. DirectStorage), hardware decompression... fine. I still think Cerny has architected a far more robust, efficient and effective system that is far more likely to reach its theoretical IO bandwidth limits. Yes, PS5 IO is on-paper 129-367% the speed of XSX's IO, this is a fact, but for me, it's not at all the main bone of contention.

The main bone of contention is which set of 1st party developers are more likely to take advantage of the faster IO on their respective systems:

The system in which the whole system was engineered around this custom, super fast IO and the devs who have proven track records of handling exotic architectures (PS3 - CELL) and making them sing (PS4 - GPU Compute) and the whole wealth of development resources (SWWS) targetting just this one specific platform? (PS5)

or

The system that had an SSD dropped in at the last minute with a development infrastructure that also needs to support Xbox One, One S, One X, Lockhart, PC and xCloud, based on last-gen technology (PCIe 3.0) and pixiedust concepts lifted wholesale from their PC background. (Virtual RAM - LOL)


My biases are clear, and my opinion on which is the far superior system is clear, and I'm not even saying the XSX isn't capable of what the PS5 is capable of - it is, with the necessary sacrifices. All I'm saying is if one wants to experience what truly exploiting a super fast SSD in next generation game design actually feels, looks and plays like, beyond just faster loading... You're only going to get that on PS5. Take that to the bank.

Game design though? Not interesting in discussing my ideas with you, sorry.

 

[Woo-Fu]

Sounds more likely that this will allow them to cut some development time that would otherwise be spent on optimization. Can anybody name a studio head who is happy with the cost of making games going up every generation while the price point stays the same?

 

[DynamiteCop!]

I already shared my thoughts on the matter in another thread, and the problems with XSX stems a lot further than just transfer speeds.



Game design though? Not interesting in discussing my ideas with you, sorry.

That's a very thoughtful post but it's just hammering down the line of theoretics and presumptive thoughts for how you believe the function would actually translate to code. It also in no way goes over in what way games would be shaped differently, not just in general but what the PlayStation 5 could actually do in a game which would be prohibitive on the Series X.

There's a lot of dancing around this, a lot assumptive tech mumbo jumbo but very little in the way of "It will allow this kind of design, and this will simply not be possible". The sad thing is none of these developers regardless of incarnation can assert this answer either so don't feel bad, you're just getting baited.

 

[CJY]

That's a very thoughtful post but it's just hammering down the line of theoretics and presumptive thoughts for how you believe the function would actually translate to code. It also in no way goes over in what way games would be shaped differently, not just in general but what the PlayStation 5 could actually do in a game which would be prohibitive on the Series X.

There's a lot of dancing around this, a lot assumptive tech mumbo jumbo but very little in the way of "It will allow this kind of design, and this will simply not be possible".

I understand that, but then again, this thread isn't about that. It's specifically about the PS5's SSD. I'm not downplaying XSX's SSD in this thread and I think it will be huge for gaming as a whole for SSDs to become standard, I just don't think we're gonna see the same level of innovation from XSX in terms of SSD usage early next gen and that we'll probably see Sony devs lead the way here. The same concepts will likely be possible on XSX, but then we'll really never know as 1st party games won't be ported to XSX. I'm not even sure that we'll see things on PS5 that are clearly not possible on XSX, so it's pointless system warring about this. I'd rather just focus on the potential.

Edit: system wars will resume once we see the first demos/games.

 

[polybius80]

Non-answer, what about game design would differ and be some kind of impossibility for the Series X.

We know the numbers, don't stall.

thats the answer, you are asking in a forum how a new feature impact future game design and if nobody gives you whatever you consider a "valid answer" and instead give you a technical answer then you are assuming it wont make an impact


if your game idea requires lot of fast data transfers to the medium then you have to change your game design or throw it away if you cant work around restrictions and who knows how many ideas for games couldnt be done in the past because that requirement

all kind of restrictions a system have changes how you design games, there is a reason why in super mario bros you cant go back in the scenes, for example in nes games sprites had to be designed around the amount of colors you can use per sprites and how many sprites you need per character and if your sprite requires key-color or can use all colors how many sprites are per scanline or else they cannot be rendered, genesis games lacked transparency so they have to use palet swap per scanlines or checkerboard pattern to simulate translucent objects you can work around some things other not and how good a developer is key to this

compare a game like kessen for ps2 at the begining of the generation that can make restricted battles with 100 characters and another like demon chaos wich can do tens of thousands of characters in a free realtime battle also in ps2 but at the end of the generations and you can see how certain specs can impact game ideas and design if used correctly


some things you can predict others not, at the time probably nobody could predict a game like soul reaver was possible in the psone or a game like silent hill, after a pre-rendered environments in resident evil a complete 3d scene terror game with that quality was like new gen or comparing how FFVII looked compared to chrono cross

 

[VFXVeteran]

False?

In Theory: How SSD Could Radically Change Next-Gen Games Beyond Faster Loading


The final part of the video talked about this fidelity and scope and how it would only be possible with the SSD.



But we can't store all of the super detailed high res versions for all objs in memory at once?



Doesn't seem false to him, neither does it seem false to DF. It may not be life like, but it clearly appears better based on what they were able to do on a regular slower storage device.

None of this talks about a steady framerate and at what resolution. Storage is just one part of the equation. You got so many other factors to consider like the actual TFLOPS of the GPU. As I mentioned, you guys are completely assuming the GPU will process every single thing it gets because you are only looking at the content itself (i.e. the triangles, or the textures, or the particle count, etc..) and not what gets processed on the content (i.e. ray-tracing, shadow maps, physics, procedural gameplay, complex lighting models, etc..)

 

[VFXVeteran]

That's a very thoughtful post but it's just hammering down the line of theoretics and presumptive thoughts for how you believe the function would actually translate to code. It also in no way goes over in what way games would be shaped differently, not just in general but what the PlayStation 5 could actually do in a game which would be prohibitive on the Series X.

There's a lot of dancing around this, a lot assumptive tech mumbo jumbo but very little in the way of "It will allow this kind of design, and this will simply not be possible". The sad thing is none of these developers regardless of incarnation can assert this answer either so don't feel bad, you're just getting baited.

Because he doesn't know. He just wants to have security that the SSD in the PS5 will somehow magically make up the difference in overall system performance so you are constantly defending the XSX instead of you questioning how ~10TFLOPS vs. 12TFLOPS will look like in games that require more bandwidth and high FLOPS due to ray-tracing or some complex shader like physically accurate subsurface scattering.

 

[CJY]

Because he doesn't know. He just wants to have security that the SSD in the PS5 will somehow magically make up the difference in overall system performance so you are constantly defending the XSX instead of you questioning how ~10TFLOPS vs. 12TFLOPS will look like in games that require more bandwidth and high FLOPS due to ray-tracing or some complex shader like physically accurate subsurface scattering.

You've really got a pin up your anus it seems. What kind of professional are you anyway? A professional fool?

 

[DynamiteCop!]

Because he doesn't know. He just wants to have security that the SSD in the PS5 will somehow magically make up the difference in overall system performance so you are constantly defending the XSX instead of you questioning how ~10TFLOPS vs. 12TFLOPS will look like in games that require more bandwidth and high FLOPS due to ray-tracing or some complex shader like physically accurate subsurface scattering.

It's nice to see someone else acknowledge it, as I've said I think about eight times now absolutely none of these people can quantify it. The irony is the very guy I was talking to said the Alex didn't have an imagination and when parsed the same question he went into technical nonsense that he doesn't even fully understand to dodge the question.

You accuse someone else of having no imagination and when asked to imagine how a divergence could actually form in a gameplay scenario we're met with a whole lot of nothing. These people are boring me to death.

 

[CJY]

It's nice to see someone else acknowledge it, as I've said I think about eight times now absolutely none of these people can quantify it. The irony is the very guy I was talking to said the Alex didn't have an imagination and when parsed the same question he went into technical nonsense that he doesn't even fully understand to dodge the question.

You accuse someone else of having no imagination and when asked to imagine how a divergence could actually form in a gameplay scenario we're met with a whole lot of nothing. These people are boring me to death.

If it's so boring for you, why not head back over to systemwars? 20k posts over there... surprised you even have time to be bored.

 

[VFXVeteran]

It's nice to see someone else acknowledge it, as I've said I think about eight times now absolutely none of these people can quantify it. The irony is the very guy I was talking to said the Alex didn't have an imagination and when parsed the same question he went into technical nonsense that he doesn't even fully understand to dodge the question.

You accuse someone else of having no imagination and when asked to imagine how a divergence could actually form in a gameplay scenario we're met with a whole like of nothing.

I've worked on projects that require more bandwidth than any current SSD can provide. Developers ultimately want more RAM. It's a much much better solution than an SSD. It's significantly faster. We haven't even touched games with true self-shadowing with subsurface scattering volume smoke, clouds, real hair with physics, enormous texture sizes, and multiple bounced global illumination that won't even run on a PC in real time (not even Ampere). I know that having a fast SSD is hiding the fact that you don't have enough RAM to load your entire game in RAM. Sure, you can stream a shit ton of data at a rate of 9GB/s, but that's not the overall goal. The goal is to have 64-128G GDDR6 RAM locked @ 900Gb/s or some large number. That's so many generations away.

Memory bandwidth is the key to better graphics. NOT I/O bandwidth. The devs got tired of slow load speeds and hard to stream data, so Sony went a little overboard with it. MS gave the perfect balance. And of course, a PC is the closest hardware that a game dev wants.

 

[CJY]

DynamiteCop! and VFXVeteran seem like almost the same person to me. Same shitty attitude. Same condescending tone. Same level of arrogance. You guys would probably make good lovers. Perfect for one another.

 

[DForce]

None of this talks about a steady framerate and at what resolution. Storage is just one part of the equation. You got so many other factors to consider like the actual TFLOPS of the GPU. As I mentioned, you guys are completely assuming the GPU will process every single thing it gets because you are only looking at the content itself (i.e. the triangles, or the textures, or the particle count, etc..) and not what gets processed on the content (i.e. ray-tracing, shadow maps, physics, procedural gameplay, complex lighting models, etc..)

You don't realize that what you're telling me has nothing to do with my response to his post.

It believe SSD cannot help provide better graphics and I told him that it can. If you have faster access to data, it can help provide better details.

I never said it was the only factor.

I never said it was the main factor.