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The PlayStation 5 SSD Will Not Change Open World Games Dramatically

VFXVeteran

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You don't realize that what you're telling me has nothing to do with my response to his post.

It believe SSD cannot help provide better graphics and I told him that it can. If you have faster access to data, it can help provide better details.

I never said it was the only factor.

I never said it was the main factor.
Specifying the details would be better. Put on the Developer crown and talk details. I only understand details. Because I'm telling you that "better graphically details" require TFLOPS, not SSD bandwidth. I gave examples. So counter me by telling me how?
 
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DForce

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Specifying the details would be better. Put on the Developer crown and talk details. I only understand details. Because I'm telling you that "better graphically details" require TFLOPS, not SSD bandwidth. I gave examples. So counter me by telling me how?
Spider-Man on Playstation 5 with an SSD
VS
Spider-Man on PlayStation 5 with just a Standard HDD

The way data is streamed into the game, you're telling me they're not able to stream more higher quality assets into the game with an SSD in comparison to just a regular HDD?
 
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VFXVeteran

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DynamiteCop! DynamiteCop! and VFXVeteran VFXVeteran seem like almost the same person to me. Same shitty attitude. Same condescending tone. Same level of arrogance. You guys would probably make good lovers. Perfect for one another.
You should go back and read the 1500+ pages of Nextgen Speculation and take note of all the Sony fans and their attitudes towards everyone else assuming the system will be the leader in TFLOPS. Do you know much you guys focused on TFLOPS? You had polls, you had camps, every single day taking on numbers that YOU wanted the PS5 to end up being. And all of you was misled by fake insiders or insiders who didn't have good sources. You trolled me, you trolled HeisenbergFX4 HeisenbergFX4 , you trolled DF, anyone who mentioned lower numbers. And now you want to claim we have smug shitty attitudes? Look in the mirror man!

You guys dreamed.. even when the truth was staring you in the face (github leak) because you wanted so bad to hold your head up high.

I'm glad that MS came out with a more powerful machine if just to humble the Sony fans, sad to say, because you guys were out of control. Really.
 

CJY

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Specifying the details would be better. Put on the Developer crown and talk details. I only understand details. Because I'm telling you that "better graphically details" require TFLOPS, not SSD bandwidth. I gave examples. So counter me by telling me how?
It's ridiculous to even to respond to this kind of person. Faster IO simply has the potential for better everything. Better textures, better animations, more complex composite objects, massive datasets that could be streamed on the fly, 8K textures for close up objects in VR... it's just all too easy to then turn around though and say... butbutbut "flops are needed", "can be done on HDD", "SSD no need".
 

VFXVeteran

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Spider-Man on Playstation 5 with an SSD
VS
Spider-Man on PlayStation 5 with just a Standard HDD

The way data is streamed into the game, you're telling me they're not able to stream more higher quality assets into the game with an SSD in comparison to just a regular HDD?
That's the PS5 vs. a standard HDD on the PS4.

That test wasn't a PS5 SSD vs. XSX SSD or PC SSD or PC w/64G of DDR4 RAM (I have this in my box now). A PC can hold the entire Spiderman game in memory easily. So it'll crush any SSD on any hardware. So that's what your ultimate goal is. Since the consoles don't have that kind of bandwidth, they use the SSD to stream assets. But just because they used a PS5 SSD doesn't mean that demo wouldn't work on a PC/XSX with SSD.
 
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CJY

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You should go back and read the 1500+ pages of Nextgen Speculation and take note of all the Sony fans and their attitudes towards everyone else assuming the system will be the leader in TFLOPS. Do you know much you guys focused on TFLOPS? You had polls, you had camps, every single day taking on numbers that YOU wanted the PS5 to end up being. And all of you was misled by fake insiders or insiders who didn't have good sources. You trolled me, you trolled HeisenbergFX4 HeisenbergFX4 , you trolled DF, anyone who mentioned lower numbers. And now you want to claim we have smug shitty attitudes? Look in the mirror man!

You guys dreamed.. even when the truth was staring you in the face (github leak) because you wanted so bad to hold your head up high.

I'm glad that MS came out with a more powerful machine if just to humble the Sony fans, sad to say, because you guys were out of control. Really.
Not me man. I wasn't interested in the leaks whatsoever, but I saw today that you were providing "leaks" too so you were trying to feed the frenzy yourself too for a few of those tasty brownie points weren't you?
 
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CJY

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That's the PS5 vs. a standard HDD on the PS4.

That test wasn't a PS5 SSD vs. XSX SSD or PC SSD or PC w/64G of DDR4 RAM (I have this in my box now). A PC can hold the entire Spiderman game in memory easily. So it'll crush any SSD on any hardware. So that's what your ultimate goal is. Since the consoles don't have that kind of bandwidth, they use the SSD to stream assets. But just because they used a PS5 SSD doesn't mean that demo wouldn't work on a PC/XSX with SSD.
Who da fuq is talking about SSD on PC? or even XSX for that matter?

Are you not able to read the title of this thread?
 
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mckmas8808

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You mean all those 1st party Sony devs. I’m shocked. I genuinely expected them to say just the opposite.

Do these devs count as well?



The 1st party devs are the ones I'd listen to the most. Same goes for Xbox's first party devs. At least before the system comes out. They are the ones that have had the dev kits the longest. Why would I put anybody else's opinion above theirs?
 

DForce

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That's the PS5 vs. a standard HDD on the PS4.

That test wasn't a PS5 SSD vs. XSX SSD or PC SSD or PC w/64G of DDR4 RAM (I have this in my box now). A PC can hold the entire Spiderman game in memory easily. So it'll crush any SSD on any hardware. So that's what your ultimate goal is. Since the consoles don't have that kind of bandwidth, they use the SSD to stream assets. But just because they used a PS5 SSD doesn't mean that demo wouldn't work on a PC/XSX with SSD.
That's not what I'm asking you.

I'm giving you a scenarios in which a Spider-Man game is on the PS5, but one has an SSD and the other just has a regular HDD.

The question is: Can the PlayStation 5 with an SSD stream more higher quality assets?
 

DynamiteCop!

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DynamiteCop! DynamiteCop! and VFXVeteran VFXVeteran seem like almost the same person to me. Same shitty attitude. Same condescending tone. Same level of arrogance. You guys would probably make good lovers. Perfect for one another.
You wouldn't get these kind of responses if you could answer simple questions which are the hinge for your entire debate, it's a self defeating proposition.

We don't have shitty attitudes, we're not condescending, you're simply failing to bring your points full circle. Also again with the irony, saying we have a bad attitude then you go off the handle with insults and irrelevant factors such as another forum I frequent.

There's a strong state of petulance emanating from you and it's counterproductive to grounded discussion.
 
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VFXVeteran

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Who da fuq is talking about SSD on PC? or even XSX for that matter?

Are you not able to read the title of this thread?
Wth? Dude, we are discussing how you hope the PS5's SSD is so fast, that no exclusive game developed for the PS5 can run on any other platform. Otherwise, why do we have several threads about it? Are you trying to ignore the goal post moving since the PS5 specs were finally revealed?
 
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Shots fired :p

Yeah because the sole point of the SSD was somehow reinventing open world games.

All these posts coming from resetera am i on the wrong forum hmhmhmm
 
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VFXVeteran

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That's not what I'm asking you.

I'm giving you a scenarios in which a Spider-Man game is on the PS5, but one has an SSD and the other just has a regular HDD.

The question is: Can the PlayStation 5 with an SSD stream more higher quality assets?
No. It can stream more assets. Higher quality is relative. Higher quality could mean more triangles for a character or larger texture sizes. So be specific.
 

CJY

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You wouldn't get these kind of responses if you could answer simple questions which are the hinge for your entire debate, it's a self defeating proposition.

We don't have shitty attitudes, we're not condescending, you're simply failing to bring your points full circle. Also again with the irony, saying we have bad attitude then you go on the handle with insults and irrelevant factors such as another forum I frequency.

There's a strong state of petulance emanating from you and it's counterproductive to grounded discussion.
What is it that you're trying to figure out exactly? because every time I see yours or VFXLoser's posts, both of you are consistently just trying to downplay everything someone has to say and just constantly trying to call people out on what they know, or don't know.

The fact that you have over 20K posts on a forum called systemwars is completely relevant because it shows precisely what kind of person you are. I never even heard of that forum before last week, but it totally explains a lot about the way you approach things on here, which is far from what I'd call "grounded discussion".
 
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DynamiteCop!

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Wth? Dude, we are discussing how you hope the PS5's SSD is so fast, that no exclusive game developed for the PS5 can run on any other platform. Otherwise, why do we have several threads about it? Are you trying to ignore the goal post moving since the PS5 specs were finally revealed?
They all know they moved the goalpost, the SSD was a one off mention every couple of days or something, it was a non-factor. The teraflop advantage was lost and then the SSD became everything immediately, and worst of all none of them can facilitate a real explanation as to why as it relates to games.

The teraflop argument makes sense because we all know the entire pathway of that discussion, we know all the implications. We all know the implications of a wider bus, of faster memory, of a better CPU etc. That's heavily explored territory, right now for this SSD there's so much BS it's hard to even keep up with it.
 

DynamiteCop!

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What is it that you're trying to figure out exactly? because every time I see yours or VFXLoser's posts, both of you are consistently just trying to downplay everything someone has to say and just constantly trying to call people out on what they know, or don't know.

The fact that you have over 20K posts on a forum called systemwars is completely relevant because it shows precisely what kind of person you are. I never even heard of that forum before last week, but it totally explains a lot about the way you approach things on here, which is far from what I'd call "grounded discussion".
You can't go a single post without veering off into a tangent of irrelevant non-factors unrelated to the discussion at hand. I mean you can't even go a post now it seems without hurling some kind of quip or insult at a poster.

Get a grip, guy.
 
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CJY

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They all know they moved the goalpost, the SSD was a one off mention every couple of days or something, it was a non-factor. The teraflop advantage was lost and then the SSD became everything immediately, and worst of all none of them can facilitate a real explanation as to why as it relates to games.

The teraflop argument makes sense because we all know the entire pathway of that discussion, we know all the implications. We all know the implications of a wider bus, of faster memory, of a better CPU etc. That's heavily explored territory, right now for this SSD there's so much BS it's hard to even keep up with it.
Was moving from cartridges to optical disk a small deal?

For the longest time people thought having an SSD was an impossibility until last year when Cerny came out and said so.

Sure, the goalposts were moved, but not by those who care about PlayStation. The goalposts moved organically. People who only like PlayStation wouldn't get an Xbox even if it had 20Tflops. It wouldn't make a difference.

I can't speak for everyone, but I didn't care about Flops. Never did. I wanted more because I know basically it means more GPU performance, but that just means a better PlayStation. It's just sad for me to see all you Xbox fanboys continuing to talk about Xbox to people who literally don't give a shit about Xbox. It's like your whole identity rests on how on how your system compares to PlayStation and it's rather pathetic.
 
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CJY

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You can't go a single post without veering off into a tangent of irrelevant non-factors unrelated to the discussion at hand. I mean you can't even go a post now it seems without hurling some kind of quip or insult at a poster.

Get a grip, guy.
Yes, I can't stop insulting you because I literally dislike your posts that much and the mental image I have of you makes you seem uber pathetic. I mean, 20K posts on systemwars. That's reallly sad man.

I think you should get a grip in all honesty. System warring is fun for a while, but then it gets grating. It seems like you base your whole identity around it, but it's a brief blip in time for most normal people.
 
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DynamiteCop!

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Was moving from cartridges to optical disk a small deal?

For the longest time people thought having an SSD was an impossibility until last year when Cerny came out and said so.

Sure, the goalposts were moved, but not by those who care about PlayStation. The goalposts moved organically. People who only like PlayStation wouldn't get an Xbox even if it had 20Tflops. It wouldn't make a difference.

I can't speak for everyone, but I didn't care about Flops. Never did. I wanted more because I know basically it means more GPU performance, but that just means a better PlayStation. It's just sad for me to see all you Xbox fanboys continuing to talk about Xbox to people who literally don't give a shit about Xbox. It's like your whole identity rests on how on how your system compares to PlayStation and it's rather pathetic.
The goalpost didn't move organically because it went from effectively zero talk of it prior with the carnal presumptive knowledge of how fast it would be for basically months, to seemingly unending threads about it the second Cerny dropped the information about the inferior GPU specs.

Microsoft gutted everything about Sony's system except for this one aspect, and what happened? Everyone jumped off the teraflops wagon like it was an infectious disease and went head long into SSD propaganda.

I mean you're not fooling anyone, the series of events is about as discreet as throwing pots and pans down a metal staircase.

Yes, I can't stop insulting you because I literally dislike your posts that much and the mental image I have of you makes you seem uber pathetic. I mean, 20K posts on systemwars. That's reallly sad man.

I think you should get a grip in all honesty. System warring is fun for a while, but then it gets grating. It seems like you base your whole identity around it, but it's a brief blip in time for most normal people.
Absolute irrelevance. Stop thinking about me, because trust me when I say I don't think about you.
 
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CJY

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The goalpost didn't move organically because it went from effectively zero talk of it prior with the carnal presumptive knowledge of how fast it would be for basically months, to seemingly unending threads about it the second Cerny dropped the information about the inferior GPU specs.

Microsoft gutted everything about Sony's system except for this one aspect, and what happened? Everyone jumped off the teraflops wagon like it was an infectious disease and went head long into SSD propaganda.

I mean you're not fooling anyone, the series of events is about as discreet as throwing pots and pans down a metal staircase.

Absolute irrelevance. Stop thinking about me, because trust me when I say I don't think about you.
Sorry you're butthurt that the game has changed man. I feel for you. Waiting all this time for a win and Cerny just comes along and slaps you right in the face like that. It must hurt. Maybe you can get your daddy VFXVet to console you, because I don't give two flying fucks.
 

DynamiteCop!

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Sorry you're butthurt that the game has changed man. I feel for you. Waiting all this time for a win and Cerny just comes along and slaps you right in the face like that. It must hurt. Maybe you can get your daddy VFXVet to console you, because I don't give two flying fucks.
You have nothing of value to add to any discussion. Adios.
 

OSC

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Specifying the details would be better. Put on the Developer crown and talk details. I only understand details. Because I'm telling you that "better graphically details" require TFLOPS, not SSD bandwidth. I gave examples. So counter me by telling me how?
Doom Eternal Ultra textures take 5.6GB. In theory you could have 10~GB of textures. But the loading would be significant on hdd. Note that if sony also has sampler feedback, which they might, that 10GB is equivalent to 20-30GB.

That test wasn't a PS5 SSD vs. XSX SSD or PC SSD or PC w/64G of DDR4 RAM (I have this in my box now). A PC can hold the entire Spiderman game in memory easily. So it'll crush any SSD on any hardware. So that's what your ultimate goal is. Since the consoles don't have that kind of bandwidth, they use the SSD to stream assets. But just because they used a PS5 SSD doesn't mean that demo wouldn't work on a PC/XSX with SSD.
Next gen games might easily be 100 to 200 GB, and most pcs have 16GB or less of main ram. Also most pcs have 8GB of vram at most, many without sampler feedback.
No. It can stream more assets. Higher quality is relative. Higher quality could mean more triangles for a character or larger texture sizes. So be specific.
If you use 10GB of textures that needs to be loaded in pc's with hdd, and that's 100+ seconds on an hdd. PC's even pcie nvme ssds seem to load 2-5 times as fast as an hdd, and no faster, unlike the ps5 which is 100x as fast. Is that due to lack of optimizations or is that due to bottlenecks?

The goalpost didn't move organically because it went from effectively zero talk of it prior with the carnal presumptive knowledge of how fast it would be for basically months, to seemingly unending threads about it the second Cerny dropped the information about the inferior GPU specs.
ssds even pcie nvme ssds were barely faster than an hdd in pcs(2-5x). We didn't expect much from ssds, until Cerny said theirs is 100x as fast, and that this is possible due to removing lots of bottlenecks.
 
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DForce

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No. It can stream more assets. Higher quality is relative. Higher quality could mean more triangles for a character or larger texture sizes. So be specific.
So, it can stream more? Providing unique detail?

Ok.

Now, let's move on to the next point.

Fine.


As shown in the GDC Spider-Man video, textures and objects are streamed while Spider-Man is swinging through the city.

To keep it short, lets say they want to increase every texture size in this scene to a higher resolution (I'm not going to name specific objects in which they want to increase the texture size to).

Not only do they want to add more higher resolution of the textures, but they also want to increase the polygon count to the vehicles, pedestrians and trees.

You're telling me that developers will not be limited based on what they can stream with a standard HDD?
 

Alphagear

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The PS5 will make a huge difference on loading times, loading maps and textures etc but the bulk of the work still rests on the GPU for graphic fidelity and performance.
 
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OSC

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The PS5 will make a huge difference on loading times, loading maps and textures etc but the bulk of the work still rests on the GPU for graphic fidelity and performance.
Yes.

But like the example I gave previously, there are cases where it can make a difference. Normally you'd have to have the graphic assets for both indoor as well as outdoor areas available in memory. Otherwise you'd face downloads when going into buildings and this would break immersion and fun.

What could you do? Not allow indoors. Or you'd have to halve the quality of assets so that both indoor and outdoor assets were in memory. Now you can potentially have 9GB of assets for indoor, and 9GB of assets for outdoor, and there'd be no loading.
 
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Neo_game

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Cerny clearly mentioned that they wanted to remove bottleneck and their SSD is one of the reasons as the console is more balanced. He also said that game developer, can use their SSD is game design which was not possible earlier. For open world game to have a some impact I think we need more Vram ? I would have like if Sony had more ram at least if not more more faster. 24gigs would have helped probably more in open world games
 
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Panajev2001a

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Wow. This is so, so wrong. Wowzers.
Not the HW’s fault really, it is more like the storage API’s that were not able to let devs exploit the bandwidth. Once you can like with the new consoles and their SDK’s, it becomes a matter of reducing the cost of access and you add HW to transfer data, decompress it, etc... at zero CPU cost.

VFXVeteran VFXVeteran is correct about being able to build a desktop PC that can do essentially everything these consoles can do: if you can offer 32 GB of RAM or 64 GB (not that far fetched and has not been for a while) you can use a lot of RAM to prefetch tons more data in advance and store temporary data or data which gets reused a lot without having to stream it back and forth.
For now you’d only pay the cost with a higher initial loading time until the SSD’s catch up and devs start getting used to more direct API’s to manage storage (MS will bring DirectStorage over). Those kind of high species desktop PC’s have frequency and cores headroom to be able to go by without as much custom HW. Not a cheap endeavour and still a PC to assemble and manage over time.

Now, consoles wise and up to $399-499 in terms of price, double digits TFLOPS count, etc... there are other discussions. We have two relatively close systems overall with different design goals and their unique advantages. Xbox has fast access to storage and enough HW to accelerate it, but they pushed for more GPU grunt (in terms of shader ALU’s, RT resources, ROPS, and TMU’s which are all in the CU cluster), and have a fast CPU setup (with caveats, virtualisation tax like for the GPU, and highest frequency only if you disable SMT) and RAM (another caveat, fast pool matched to feed the higher performance shaders and a slow one... only one can serve requests at any given time)... not a bad HW and 12 TFLOPS should allow it to run the highest quality options and highest resolutions barring any bottlenecks we are not seeing albeit unlikely (the issue people have is how much can this be flexed in practical terms with a delta that is percentage wise quite small...).

PS5 tried to address and overpower most areas where developers had constraints and complaints and the TFLOPS crown was not the top one on their list: ease of programming, surprises/gotchas free design, and developers flexibility were.
Cerny’s main design goals were old consoles’ ROM-like access times (think GBA or SNES and addressing storage vs one of the various RAM pools they have... hence why they went with such a fast storage solution and all the HW they added on the SoC to make it transparent to developers and remove work from the CPU) and ensuring RAM was not wasted keeping data way ahead of time (just in case, to cover for low HDD speeds like in the past... Cerny stressed how they do not just want streaming to be easier, they want developers to rely on it a lot more also to free RAM up, to store in there only what they really need to use in the current frame/scene and no more [ideal, ymmv]), faster and less bottlenecks at the async compute shaders part (same HW resources there as XSX but much higher frequency for all the units that setup the scene and distribute workload inside the GPU) as well as an interesting quirk to remove even more work from the CPU related to geometry processing and optimisation (the aptly named Geometry Engine which seems something slightly more custom than Mesh Shaders and that they really wanted to stress as do-designer with AMD and something we may see on future AMD designs as they adopt it for their next generation desktop parts).
Given both systems are relatively small RAM wise (XSX only has 4 GB more RAM than Xbox One X) compared to current generation machines, how fast you get the data in and out of them is key. As much as RAM bandwidth and latency is key when you think about fetching data into L2 cache or serving misses.

I see both as well balanced pragmatic designs which will mean PC games minimum specs are due to rise quite a bit to catch up.
 

Shmunter

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Because he doesn't know. He just wants to have security that the SSD in the PS5 will somehow magically make up the difference in overall system performance so you are constantly defending the XSX instead of you questioning how ~10TFLOPS vs. 12TFLOPS will look like in games that require more bandwidth and high FLOPS due to ray-tracing or some complex shader like physically accurate subsurface scattering.
overall system performance = GPU, you heard it here first. Because a system is not a sum of its parts, it’s just 1 part.

Open up your glorious pc, you’ll be stunned by all the bits inside that make it ‘overall’ work.

Let’s have a look at a rudimentary definition of system, a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network; a complex whole.


Facepalm
 

hyperbertha

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I also added the "and such", that you convenietly have forgotten all about. You started by saying that the SSD in the PS5 will bringe us movie quality CGI. Later on you reversed that. And now you suddenly add "TF improvement in GPU" to the mix as well.

I get that you misspoke earlier, but at least have the decency to admit it, instead of going all out on both offensive remarks mounted at my person and on defensive maneuvers such as strawmen and goalpost-shifting.

The bottom line is that your original statement:



Makes absolutely no sense.
Neither did I reverse anything nor did I 'misspeak'. Addressing major bottlenecks IS how you truly move towards movie quality CGI. Stop latching on to things that can be misinterpreted when I've already provided you posts that I made BEFORE you pointed out the misinterpretation, disproving your accusation. So desperate.

No. It can stream more assets. Higher quality is relative. Higher quality could mean more triangles for a character or larger texture sizes. So be specific.
Devs have already showed how your points are wrong. Even current gen GPUs are capable of outputting more quality 'polycount, texture resolution' etc than they were able to work with, thanks to memory bottlenecks. People have already given you posts proving this which you conveniently ignored. Texture resolution does not put a heavy load on GPU and if I understand correctly, techniques such as deferred shading makes polycount less of a factor too. Drawcalls are far more important than pure polycount. Vertices are more important than pure polycount. A scene containing 10000 seperate traingles is far harder to render than a scene containing 1 mesh with 10000 traingles. Polycount and asset quality is NOT the factor that held back visuals this gen. It was an inavaliability of memory, that the SSDs are addressing. The Xbox's main advantage this gen lies in its greater RTX functionality due to dedicated RTX hardware, not in its extra raster TFLOPS which will practically only lead to a few extra pixels at same framerates.

There are so many factors that contribute to a reduction in rendering performance that are more important and impactful than Asset quality. The SSDs we get this gen will absolutely contribute to a more than tangible increase in quality, and the PS5 in this department is about 3 times stronger than the Xbox in this regard, and can, if devs so choose, practically have 3x the size of assets Xbox has depending on the scene, without taking a hit to FPS if the devs do their optimization right. The fact that you're repeating the same debunked arguments despite objective proof from devs only serves to show your extreme bias and reduce your legitimacy.
 
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blly155

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it will have some performance improvement. i mean consoles are going from a couple hundred mb/s at best to 2.5-5.5GB/s. that's a huge step up. developers could do some exciting things but it won't be exclusive to PS5. Xbox will see these changes too and so will PC. maybe Sony's first party titles will make use of the full speeds but every other game will have to be developed around the 2.4GB/s SSD in the XSX.

if we get Horizon 2 on PS5 that would take advantage of it. a game like "The Witcher 4" which will be on both PS5/XSX will be developed around XSX and not PS5. so it's only really exciting if you just care about sony exclusives.

for PCs some people still have HDD drives but i would guess if developers are now using consoles as a baseline then we could start to see SSD's being recommended for most if not all games. A cheap NVMe 3.0 drive (which is what the XSX is) would be the minimum. if there is a game that is on both PS5 + PC like maybe Horizon 2 or Death Stranding 2 (oh god please don't let it happen) then it could require a minimum of a 3.0 drive and recommend a 4.0 drive.
 

hyperbertha

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it will have some performance improvement. i mean consoles are going from a couple hundred mb/s at best to 2.5-5.5GB/s. that's a huge step up. developers could do some exciting things but it won't be exclusive to PS5. Xbox will see these changes too and so will PC. maybe Sony's first party titles will make use of the full speeds but every other game will have to be developed around the 2.4GB/s SSD in the XSX.

if we get Horizon 2 on PS5 that would take advantage of it. a game like "The Witcher 4" which will be on both PS5/XSX will be developed around XSX and not PS5. so it's only really exciting if you just care about sony exclusives.

for PCs some people still have HDD drives but i would guess if developers are now using consoles as a baseline then we could start to see SSD's being recommended for most if not all games. A cheap NVMe 3.0 drive (which is what the XSX is) would be the minimum. if there is a game that is on both PS5 + PC like maybe Horizon 2 or Death Stranding 2 (oh god please don't let it happen) then it could require a minimum of a 3.0 drive and recommend a 4.0 drive.
Its not out of the question that third party's can make full use of PS5's extra speed. Scaling quality of assets is not much extra work and devs have phases dedicated to optimizing seperately for each console.
 

TBiddy

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Neither did I reverse anything nor did I 'misspeak'. Addressing major bottlenecks IS how you truly move towards movie quality CGI. Stop latching on to things that can be misinterpreted when I've already provided you posts that I made BEFORE you pointed out the misinterpretation, disproving your accusation. So desperate.
You have changed your stance several times, though. That is absolutely on you. That you feel the need to call me "desperate" says a lot about you. It's just consoles, dude. No need to get a hissy fit about it.
 

darkinstinct

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Doesn't matter how fast you can stream assets if you don't have the power to actually display them. That 2.9 TF disadvantage without boost clocks (and who knows, maybe MS just goes up to 13.3 TF, the architecture can obviously run at 2 GHz) means that no matter the speed at which assets load in (and realistically you keep 80 % of your RAM static and stream maybe 1 GB of data per second), the detail level and the amount will be lower on PS5. Think grass gate on Xbox One.



That is what the TF disadvantage means. But PS5 will load those fewer grass blades faster.
 

Shmunter

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Doesn't matter how fast you can stream assets if you don't have the power to actually display them. That 2.9 TF disadvantage without boost clocks (and who knows, maybe MS just goes up to 13.3 TF, the architecture can obviously run at 2 GHz) means that no matter the speed at which assets load in (and realistically you keep 80 % of your RAM static and stream maybe 1 GB of data per second), the detail level and the amount will be lower on PS5. Think grass gate on Xbox One.



That is what the TF disadvantage means. But PS5 will load those fewer grass blades faster.
Wasn’t grassgate due to the small esram & slower ddr3 setup vs the large unified gddr On PS4? Legit Q,

Although the diff between Xbox one & PS4 GPU was 40%, so not sure.
 
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Dodkrake

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Doesn't matter how fast you can stream assets if you don't have the power to actually display them. That 2.9 TF disadvantage without boost clocks (and who knows, maybe MS just goes up to 13.3 TF, the architecture can obviously run at 2 GHz) means that no matter the speed at which assets load in (and realistically you keep 80 % of your RAM static and stream maybe 1 GB of data per second), the detail level and the amount will be lower on PS5. Think grass gate on Xbox One.



That is what the TF disadvantage means. But PS5 will load those fewer grass blades faster.
Variable clocks =/= boost clocks.

I thought this was a forum about technology, but apparently someone has missed that desktop grade CPU's have done BOTH for years.
 
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TBiddy

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You're right. So consistent, indeed

You start out by saying that the new SSD will get you movie quality CGI:
You don't see how going from 20 mb to 4 gb per unit space is a dramatic change? If you want movie quality CGI , this is how you get it.

Then you shift the goalposts and start claiming the most obvious thing ever... that faster hardware gets us "closer to movie quality". Which is about as useful as saying water is also wet tomorrow. Add to that, you start with the insults.
But ssd gets us closer to movie quality is all I'm saying. Its pointless arguing about this without educating yourself so go do some research or something.

After that, you decide to shift the goalposts even more by adding another claim, that the SSD will get us closer than adding more teraflops in the GPU.
I stand by my claim that this gen will bring us much closer (than a trivial ) jump to movie quality than any TF improvement in GPU.
Add to that several petty insults and it's very obvious what kind of poster you are.
 
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Goliathy

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Uncharted 1 and TLOU run on the same hardware yet TLOU looks clearly much better thanks to improved data management. We are going to see better looking games thanks to SDD for sure.





Nice. Presented by ex-naughty dog dev

The important question though:

What impact will the difference between PS5 SSD and XSX SSD be for Multiplatform games? I think there only be a difference in loading times and that’s it.
 

hyperbertha

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You're right. So consistent, indeed

You start out by saying that the new SSD will get you movie quality CGI:



Then you shift the goalposts and start claiming the most obvious thing ever... that faster hardware gets us "closer to movie quality". Which is about as useful as saying water is also wet tomorrow. Add to that, you start with the insults.



After that, you decide to shift the goalposts even more by adding another claim, that the SSD will get us closer than adding more teraflops in the GPU.


Add to that several petty insults and it's very obvious what kind of poster you are.
I don't see anything in those posts shifting goalposts, nor do I see any inaccuracies or 'petty insults'. If you consider telling you to do research because of your obvious lack of knowledge 'insulting' you take this way too seriously. This is just a case of you purposefully twisting my own words to try and keep your argument. Addressing major bottlenecks is what gets you way better visuals. Adding a couple teraflops is trivial compared to that. Try and prove me wrong if you actually know what you are talking about.
 

Rolling_Start

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Nah sonomamashine sonomamashine , forget it. :messenger_grinning_sweat:

sonomamashine sonomamashine , could you update the OP and title to reference the comment Dictator was replying to when he posted the stuff wccftech cut and pasted?

That wccf article is fucking garbage, as it removes the context of the comment Dictator was replying to.

He was replying to a comment about PS5 vs XSX drives.

nib95 said:
I think you mean they can work really well on both storage systems, not equally well, because there's nothing equal about a 100%+ difference in storage speed. In reality the IO throughput advantage means if designed around it, the PS5 game could stream a greater density of assets and higher quality assets in any one scene or field of view, especially important if moving at a high velocity. Not to mention reduce pop in and loading times.
To which Dictator replied:

Dictator said:
I typed this else where, but people saying things about the ssd enabling entirely different looking open world games does not make much sense based upon what we know about open world dev really.
Why do games journalists insist on removing context? Or even worse, like the "all XSX games will come to X1 forever" fantasy, take a snippet from one much larger conversation and transplant it into their clickbait fanfiction to try and make it credible?
 
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TBiddy

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I don't see anything in those posts shifting goalposts, nor do I see any inaccuracies or 'petty insults'. If you consider telling you to do research because of your obvious lack of knowledge 'insulting' you take this way too seriously. This is just a case of you purposefully twisting my own words to try and keep your argument. Addressing major bottlenecks is what gets you way better visuals. Adding a couple teraflops is trivial compared to that. Try and prove me wrong if you actually know what you are talking about.
You've called me desperate multiple times and insisted that I have no idea what I'm talking about. Issue here is that you keep changing your argument, whenever the old one gets shot down. I don't take it to heart when posters like you start throwing insults around.

PS. Making a claim and asking others to prove them wrong is 7th grade discussion level.
 
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Shmunter

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sonomamashine sonomamashine , could you update the OP and title to reference the comment Dictator was replying to when he posted the stuff wccftech cut and pasted?

That wccf article is fucking garbage, as it removes the context of the comment Dictator was replying to.

He was replying to a comment about PS5 vs XSX drives.



To which Dictator replied:



Why do games journalists insist on removing context? Or even worse, like the "all XSX games will come to X1 forever" fantasy, take a snippet from one much larger conversation and transplant it into their clickbait fanfiction to try and make it credible?
Your post made me go out of my way and re-read that. Nope, he downright dismisses ssd on grounds of open worlds being generated prcedurally and storage playing second fiddle.

E.g “ That would mean perfectly predesigned Level data and arrangements, which is the exact opposite methodolgy of how modern open world games increase their detail and variety - which is infact through prcedural method not living on the disk (hdd/ssd).”

Or

“Procedural methods exist to increase the efficiency of artists and diversity of the game World and even increase detail beyond static draws. If you are pulling things from an ssd to do that kind of detail, that means artists spent their time making it.. Which seems pretty antithetical to efficient dev.”

Or

“Basically, if a dev is designing around an ssd in the manner like you describe, that means that all their detail must already exist In a big Form on disc, which sounds like a lot of wasted dev time and disc space to me ”


Can’t back track this. I mean even not realising assets can be procedurally designed off-line to save time, and then fed into a game as ready made assets is beyond baffling. I mean is he conflating dynamic placement of bushes or trees or something as stored assets???

He should edit this garbage out and maybe people will forget in time, although probably too late after being quoted. It is a shame as many of us rely on level headed informed observations by DF as the authority on this kind of stuff.
 
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Rolling_Start

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Your post made me go out of my way and re-read that. Nope, he downright dismisses ssd on grounds of open worlds being generated prcedurally and storage playing second fiddle.

E.g “ That would mean perfectly predesigned Level data and arrangements, which is the exact opposite methodolgy of how modern open world games increase their detail and variety - which is infact through prcedural method not living on the disk (hdd/ssd).”

Or

“Procedural methods exist to increase the efficiency of artists and diversity of the game World and even increase detail beyond static draws. If you are pulling things from an ssd to do that kind of detail, that means artists spent their time making it.. Which seems pretty antithetical to efficient dev.”

Or

“Basically, if a dev is designing around an ssd in the manner like you describe, that means that all their detail must already exist In a big Form on disc, which sounds like a lot of wasted dev time and disc space to me ”


Can’t back track this. I mean even not realising assets can be procedurally designed off-line to save time, and then fed into a game as ready made assets is beyond baffling. I mean is he conflating dynamic placement of bushes or trees or something as assets???

He should edit this garbage out and maybe people will forget in time, although probably too late after being quoted. It is a shame as many of us rely on level headed informed observations by DF as the authority on this kind of stuff.
Well ... perhaps I was misreading him. I must admit I didn't pay attention to the part about assets not being in "big form" on the disc ...

I absolutely think fast SSDs will dramatically improve open world games compared to what we have now. I'm also confident that procedural / ML generation and up-rezing of assets in real time, after loading, is going to become a bigger and bigger thing next gen, but detailed offline produced assets are always going to be a huge part of open world games.

Meh. Maybe I should take my own advice and read more carefully ..
 

Shmunter

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Well ... perhaps I was misreading him. I must admit I didn't pay attention to the part about assets not being in "big form" on the disc ...

I absolutely think fast SSDs will dramatically improve open world games compared to what we have now. I'm also confident that procedural / ML generation and up-rezing of assets in real time, after loading, is going to become a bigger and bigger thing next gen, but detailed offline produced assets are always going to be a huge part of open world games.

Meh. Maybe I should take my own advice and read more carefully ..
I read through the rest of the thread and he digs himself deeper with the final post trying to sound high tech, but seen through right away...


“Asset density in the main viewport for games where you are not rapidly moving around a World (like a plane) , in any one view, like the density of triangle, the amount unique assets, is a matter of draw calls, geometry throughput, shading, worries about over draw and triangle size.“

And an astute user replies...

“You are making a huge mistake in assuming that those metrics will be any different in a scene with doubled asset variety. You will be using a similar amount of geometry, shading, draw calls, etc when you are drawing the same pool of assets twice as often as you would drawing a pool of assets that is twice as varied.“

Surprised no one dropped that cat meme on him “it’s time to stop posting”