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[CJY]

Lol, what makes you sure that the vast majority of the people think that the Xbox is uninteresting? This is one of the most fanatical bullshit ever heard. I don’t even have an Xbox but XSX looking much more interesting to me and to most of my friends who have been using PS consoles for years.

It's just a hunch. If what you're saying is right, and the majority of people are interested in XSX, I certainly don't see it on GAF.

Maybe you'd take the time to explain to me what is interesting about the XSX, and also explain why anybody who's interested in PS5 would be interested in the XSX. I really don't see it myself.

 

[pr0cs]

That's factually incorrect.

Sorry but it's simply not going to shave months off game production time.
Fast disk isn't going to be some magic bullet

 

[JägerSeNNA]

It's just a hunch. If what you're saying is right, and the majority of people are interested in XSX, I certainly don't see it on GAF.

Maybe you'd take the time to explain to me what is interesting about the XSX, and also explain why anybody who's interested in PS5 would be interested in the XSX. I really don't see it myself.

May be you don’t see it on GAF. There are even some fanatical PS outlets here in Germany,announced openly that they want first an Xbox as their next gen consoles. How can you measure this don’t know but I am not speaking as certain as you.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Not sure where you're going for this, but my comment wasn't a dig at XSX or anything.

I merely pointed out that checkerboarding can be used to safe on performance cost and that it's practically indistinguishable from native 4k.

And yes, MS could do that too if they want to, although I have a feeling they will use mostly native 4k for PR purposes.

Yep, MS will push resolution so that they can advertise "this game is 4K." Even if the game struggles a little to hit that target

 

[BattleScar]

I don't understand this take, because it's not just a fast SSD in isolation, the entire IO complex is built to remove the CPU as a bottleneck. There's a dedicated chip handling DMA, compression/decompression (equal to what 9 Ryzen 2 cores would be worth), coherency, these are all made to remove the CPU as a bottleneck.

What I want to know, is how a CPU, which is capable of accessing data from RAM at a minimum of 17 GB/s (if its using the slowest configuration of DDR4 SDRAM) or higher if its reading from GDDR6 or HBM, is going to bottleneck an SSD running at a paltry 5.5 GB/s. How in the sweet fuck is a CPU a bottleneck here?

Especially, when it doesn't have to handle any of the decompression work, because there is a separate decompression and coherency block on the die.

 

[sircaw]

D DaMonsta Imagine playing God of War 2 on PS5 and instead of having enemies come out of realm tears, there are enemies that pull you into them and instantly, you're in another dimension. Being able to flush the RAM cache and refill it practically instantaneously is a game changer. What we have today with slow IO, is "fast travel", realm between realms, the realm travel room to mask slow IO.

This simple gameplay example is something I'd be extremely interested in and would only be possible with fast IO. I don't care if it's done with a few less pixels.

That's actually a really good example.

 

[CJY]

May be you don’t see it on GAF. There are even some fanatical PS outlets here in Germany,announced openly that they want first an Xbox as their next gen consoles. How can you measure this don’t know but I am not speaking as certain as you.

I am absolutely certain and the eventual sales will prove as evidence of that.

Genuinely, all I'm seeing on GAF are Xbox people wanting everybody to pay attention to XSX's TFlop lead. This is the metric that I maintain with absolute vigour that nobody is interested in. Either on GAF or beyond.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Sorry but it's simply not going to shave months off game production time.
Fast disk isn't going to be some magic bullet

It's very possible and will happen with some games

If you are to eliminate a bug that upon fixing can introduce 5-10 more bugs, this helps reduce development time. Facts are Facts

 

[Neo Blaster]

Another youtuber defending his console of choice, nothing new in the horizon

Another poster who didn't watch the video, neither even cared to check most of his videos are about PC.

 

[Hobbygaming]

D DaMonsta Imagine playing God of War 2 on PS5 and instead of having enemies come out of realm tears, there are enemies that pull you into them and instantly, you're in another dimension. Being able to flush the RAM cache and refill it practically instantaneously is a game changer. What we have today with slow IO, is "fast travel", realm between realms, the realm travel room to mask slow IO.

This simple gameplay example is something I'd be extremely interested in and would only be possible with fast IO. I don't care if it's done with a few less pixels.

Possibilities like this is why PS5 is said to be a paradigm shift to game design, for those wanting to use the tech

 

[CJY]

It's very possible and will happen with some games

If you are to eliminate a bug that upon fixing can introduce 5-10 more bugs, this helps reduce development time. Facts are Facts

Realistically though, games will take the same amount of time, because games are usually made to a fixed schedule/deadline. Look at Anthem, they had 7 years to produce that game, but they were still in pre-production 18 months from release. The more streamlined system will likely allow for potentially better games in the allotted time though, by not having to develop around the limitations of today's IO. Time saved can be put into different areas of the game and potentially result in a better experience overall.

 

[JägerSeNNA]

I am absolutely certain and the eventual sales will prove as evidence of that.

Genuinely, all I'm seeing on GAF are Xbox people wanting everybody to pay attention to XSX's TFlop lead. This is the metric that I maintain with absolute vigour that nobody is interested in. Either on GAF or beyond.

The same thing had been said after a very successful PS2 age but nothing went like Sony wanted on PS3 gen,so there is nothing certain here. The TF thing would absolutely be a very important metric if the Sony had it in their hands but it is a dream now. This is the reason it is not important anymore

 

[LordOfChaos]

What I want to know, is how a CPU, which is capable of accessing data from RAM at a minimum of 17 GB/s (if its using the slowest configuration of DDR4 SDRAM) or higher if its reading from GDDR6 or HBM, is going to bottleneck an SSD running at a paltry 5.5 GB/s. How in the sweet fuck is a CPU a bottleneck here?

Especially, when it doesn't have to handle any of the decompression work, because there is a separate decompression and coherency block on the die.

The take makes no sense, and people who picked their side want to act like it's gospel just because it's a "developer" take - was it early before they learned more? Was it just some social media manager? Or do they have games to push on the opposite platform?

A good quarter of the talk was about removing the CPU as a bottleneck everywhere, makes no sense to say it would bottleneck this SSD for so many reasons.

 

[CJY]

The same thing had been said after a very successful PS2 age but nothing went like Sony wanted on PS3 gen,so there is nothing certain here. The TF thing would absolutely be a very important metric if the Sony had it in their hands but it is a dream now. This is the reason it is not important anymore

The PS3 had many problems, price probably being the main one.
Xbox One had many problems and the TFlops was probably 5th or 6th in that long list of issues.

PS4 was great because it was maybe the first time a console was vastly more powerful and significantly cheaper. It was also easier to develop for and had more 3rd-party support.

If PS5 had more TFlops than XSX, it still would be far less interesting than the SSD. Considering the philosophy with how Cerny approached designing the PS5, I don't see how it would have been possible to have more more TFlops than XSX, when XBox bet the house on more flops.

No console has ever won the console war based purely on specs or TFlops. If XSX comes out 2TFlops better and also $100 cheaper, then they'd have something to brag about and the interest would be high. Until the price comes out, gloating should be at a minimum and general interest in Xbox will remain about the same as what is seen coming to the end of this generation. They had the performance crown with Xbox One X too - a far larger disparity too - and yet nobody bought it. Why would things change now all of a sudden?

Performance without knowledge of price is absolutely irrelevant.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Realistically though, games will take the same amount of time, because games are usually made to a fixed schedule/deadline. Look at Anthem, they had 7 years to produce that game, but they were still in pre-production 18 months from release. The more streamlined system will likely allow for potentially better games in the allotted time though, by not having to develop around the limitations of today's IO. Time saved can be put into different areas of the game and potentially result in a better experience overall.

Yep, I said the developers can choose to implement new things in the game or polish with the reduced dev time it's up to them. I'm not talking shaving years off of game development, to be clear

And the game has to be using the SSD to benefit

 

[Spreewaldgurke]

 

[DaMonsta]

I actually think you're wrong here. Sure, there are lots of people who will buy both consoles, but I think the majority don't have any interest in the XSX because it's just not interesting. It's a PC in a box and doesn't do anything to innovate on console design or philosophy.

Well this is just like, your opinion man, lol.

And we were not talking about sales. I thought this thread was about the technical aspects of the two consoles, no?

People are posting news about PS5 because again, they are interested in PS5. Nobody is working to suppress anything about XSX. It's got more flops, awesome. It's a PC in a box, cool. What else is there?

This isn’t news, it’s a random YouTube opinion. And just in this thread you guys have worked to silence anything that goes against the narrative you are trying to build

Nobody is sitting in a bubble. If anything,

Yeah you are. When you say stuff like “The majority don’t have interest in Xbox”

That’s literally the definition of being in your own bubble.

fanheads sitting in that bubble waiting for DF to produce head-to-heads when they are basically worthless next-gen. Any disparity between the consoles in framerate or resolution will come down to the devs and how well optimised the games are and smart usage of the tools and APIs available.

Right, preemptively setting up the “lazy devs” argument when PS5 games underperform. Compared to Xbox. Lol

Xbox is clearly more powerful. When the games show that, it’s not the devs fault it is the reality of the two consoles.

Will anybody be surprised if an XSX game has better framerate than a PS5 game? or what if it was the other way around? What if one had slightly better resolution that the other? No, no and double no.

Nah, y’all will just call devs lazy and DF bias for pointing out the differences.

Fact is, we've been stuck in this race for more pixels for 2 generations now and nobody thinks or believes that either console won't be capable of 4K/60. This is why nobody cares about GPU performance. Beyond a certain level, the resolution doesn't matter like it once did, and even if it does matter to some, it's just not as important as the potential for new game experiences and mechanics brought about by exploiting the fast SSD.

SSD can’t do anything without a powerful system around it.
PS5 isn’t the only piece of gaming hardware with a fast SSD.

 

[Panajev2001a]

PS4 was great because it was maybe the first time a console was vastly more powerful and significantly cheaper. It was also easier to develop for and had more 3rd-party support.

Yup, very well said .

 

[thismeinteil]

Personally, I can't wait until a few months from now when we will start to see the games from Sony's 1st parties and close partners. That's when we'll see what this "weak" system can do. And when we start seeing Only on PlayStation in the trailers, we can let the PC port begging begin. PS is going to win on what's made them win 3 gens out of 4, price and games, games, games.

 

[DaMonsta]

D DaMonsta Imagine playing God of War 2 on PS5 and instead of having enemies come out of realm tears, there are enemies that pull you into them and instantly, you're in another dimension. Being able to flush the RAM cache and refill it practically instantaneously is a game changer. What we have today with slow IO, is "fast travel", realm between realms, the realm travel room to mask slow IO.

This simple gameplay example is something I'd be extremely interested in and would only be possible with fast IO. I don't care if it's done with a few less pixels.

PS5 isn’t the only piece of gaming hardware with a fast SSD.

And there’s nothing “practicality instantaneous” about a fast SSD. Even the one in PS5

 

[ZywyPL]

I don't understand this take, because it's not just a fast SSD in isolation, the entire IO complex is built to remove the CPU as a bottleneck. There's a dedicated chip handling DMA, compression/decompression (equal to what 9 Ryzen 2 cores would be worth), coherency, these are all made to remove the CPU as a bottleneck.

Transferring data is one thing, while actually processing it is another story. It's possible the CPU simply won't be able to utilize all that bandwidth, same way Jaguar in PS4 was holding back SSD if you put one inside. Those bottlenecks Cerny talked about during his presentation were solely related to keeping that hight bandwidth from start to finish, not about how much data the CPU or GPU can actually process. I even see some fanboys spreading false information that PS5 is designed to remove ALL bottlenecks related to the entire system, but let's just let them live in their alternative realities.

 

[CJY]

PS5 isn’t the only piece of gaming hardware with a fast SSD.

And there’s nothing “practicality instantaneous” about a fast SSD. Even the one in PS5

Ok fine, PS5 SSD is nothing special. XSX's SSD must be absolutely horseshit then.

Nobody gives a shit about TFlops mang or whatever "performance crown" it has. Xbox One X was way more powerful than PS4 Pro and nobody bought it, why would anybody suddenly care about XSX?

 

[Honey Bunny]

This all sounds like a big cope

 

[LordOfChaos]

Transferring data is one thing, while actually processing it is another story. It's possible the CPU simply won't be able to utilize all that bandwidth, same way Jaguar in PS4 was holding back SSD if you put one inside. Those bottlenecks Cerny talked about during his presentation were solely related to keeping that hight bandwidth from start to finish, not about how much data the CPU or GPU can actually process. I even see some fanboys spreading false information that PS5 is designed to remove ALL bottlenecks related to the entire system, but let's just let them live in their alternative realities.

And a CPU from a family that can use up to 8 channels of DDR4-3200MHz (each channel at 25GB/s) is going to be bottlenecking "actually processing" another 5-9GB/s becuase...?

IO has stayed woefully behind advances in CPUs, it's the whole reason we have so many layers of caching. L1 caches can be into the TB/s. The north star of compute would be having storage and memory become each other, no difference between their bandwidth. We're not there yet, not even close, but it's equally facecious to imply this effort was a waste of time when we haven't even seen what will be done with it yet.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/computer-science/l1-cache

 

[DaMonsta]

Ok fine, PS5 SSD is nothing special. XSX's SSD must be absolutely horseshit then.

Never said that, if you are gonna make up words for me, then stop quoting me.

Nobody gives a shit about TFlops mang or whatever "performance crown" it has. Xbox One X was way more powerful than PS4 Pro and nobody bought it, why would anybody suddenly care about XSX?

Again your bubble, and excuse me did I read the thread title wrong? I could have sworn this thread had nothing to do with sales.

 

[CJY]

Never said that, if you are gonna make up words for me, then stop quoting me.


Again your bubble, and excuse me did I read the thread title wrong? I could have sworn this thread had nothing to do with sales.

OK, I'll stop quoting you. Just remember, TFlops don't matter next gen. You'll be happier with that knowledge.

 

[Panajev2001a]

PS5 isn’t the only piece of gaming hardware with a fast SSD.

And there’s nothing “practicality instantaneous” about a fast SSD. Even the one in PS5

Speed is only important and transformative up to the magical threshold of 2.4 GB/s uncompressed and 4.8 GB/s compressed. After that the fairy dust loses all potency for some mysterious reason.

The 640 KB ought to be good enough for anyone angle coming in fashion again eh ?

 

[mitchman]

I really wouldn't get your hopes up that SSD speed has ANY relationship with development time.... At all

Considering weeks of development time is spent hiding asset streaming from the gamer, adding elevator or corridor sequences etc, it does have a big relationship to development time.

 

[DaMonsta]

Speed is only important and transformative up to the magical threshold of 2.4 GB/s uncompressed and 4.8 GB/s compressed. After that the fairy dust loses all potency for some mysterious reason.

The 640 KB ought to be good enough for anyone angle coming in fashion again eh ?

Conversely it seems the fairy dust only exists the “fairy dust” only exists beyond that level if you ask some people.

Reality is there is no fairy dust.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Conversely it seems the fairy dust only exists the “fairy dust” only exists beyond that level if you ask some people.

Not really, I am not really seeing PS5 fans being negative and downplaying XSX... not nearly as much as I am seeing the opposite side multiple times a day .

 

[DaMonsta]

Not really, I am not really seeing PS5 fans being negative and downplaying XSX... not nearly as much as I am seeing the opposite side multiple times a day .

Like I said, your bubble makes you see what you want.

 

[sneas78]

I was trying figure out what is happening in threads like these. My conclusion is You guys just don’t like each other because of your box choice. Downplaying each other’s strength. I wish the mods would better pay attention to this. Opinions, fanatics, delusion on both sides.. with some sprinkles of truth. I know for certain that some of you down the line will end up buying both consoles, when they are cheaper.. a big part of that plays with, just how long will it take some to grow up.. because only then, they will realize that having some of both worlds is the best thing . Get to experience both console exclusives, online play, good sales etc. that’s my opinion. Fight the good fight warriors. We’re all watching and laughing.. because at this point after all these years, I realized, it’s just a show... a play. Thank you based Alan Watts...
(XBOX SERIEA X REVEAL)..
”BUT NOW LETS HAVE A SURPRISE”. (ALAN WATTS)

 

[onQ123]

I love how some are trying to paint it as PS5 will only have a loading time advantage over Xbox SX but it will most likely have a small straight forward rendering advantage also.

Unless y'all think that most games will push the limits of compute to the point where 18% more compute is going to unleash the Kraken.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

XSX is 12TF sustained at all times for devs to play with. PS5 is more like 9.2tf with the potential to temporarily boost to 10.2tf for the Michael Bay moments. However, the console will not be able to stay in boost reaching up 10.2 at all times without major heating issues,hence the need for variable clocks. Its really straight forward

1 - nobody needs to run at full clock speed at all time, so unless the console can't maintain something close long enough under stress.

2 - we don't know yet about the PS5s cooling performance yet, so making claims about power issues and heat problems is premature.

So lets just wait and see, I think that there is substantial benefits to what the PS5 is offering overall, but there are obvious ones to the xsx as well. It's just that the xsx does not offer a potential paradigm shift in game design (better graphics/more ray tracing is very nice, but it doesn't change how a game is fundamentally made).

My guess in the differing dev perspectives is that they tried different things, and obviously they have allegiances or some axes to grind.

 

[JägerSeNNA]

The PS3 had many problems, price probably being the main one.
Xbox One had many problems and the TFlops was probably 5th or 6th in that long list of issues.

PS4 was great because it was maybe the first time a console was vastly more powerful and significantly cheaper. It was also easier to develop for and had more 3rd-party support.

If PS5 had more TFlops than XSX, it still would be far less interesting than the SSD. Considering the philosophy with how Cerny approached designing the PS5, I don't see how it would have been possible to have more more TFlops than XSX, when XBox bet the house on more flops.

No console has ever won the console war based purely on specs or TFlops. If XSX comes out 2TFlops better and also $100 cheaper, then they'd have something to brag about and the interest would be high. Until the price comes out, gloating should be at a minimum and general interest in Xbox will remain about the same as what is seen coming to the end of this generation. They had the performance crown with Xbox One X too - a far larger disparity too - and yet nobody bought it. Why would things change now all of a sudden?

Performance without knowledge of price is absolutely irrelevant.

I swear I have seen people who said that they don’t want to touch Xbox One just because it is weaker although the first 3 years of Xbox was far more interesting than PS4’s offerings. Yes last gen power lmattered like never before.

 

[FranXico]

I swear I have seen people who said that they don’t want to touch Xbox One just because it is weaker although the first 3 years of Xbox was far more interesting than PS4’s offerings. Yes last gen power lmattered like never before.

Pretty sure DRM, a higher price point, forced Kinect and their "Get The Facts" propaganda combined were more of a factor than the lack of power in isolation.

Also, regarding the bold, I swear it's like people like to pretend that the 360/PS3 generation never happened.

 

[Yujin19]

Sooner or later alot of people will find out the hard way that even the fastest SSD in the universe does nothing more or less than loading Data!

on the PS5 ssd you can supposably use can use it as RAM which is crazy! Plus the Tempest engine can be used as a second processor instead of audio. Which is equivalent to 2 ryzen Cores.

 

[Hobbygaming]

I love how some are trying to paint it as PS5 will only have a loading time advantage over Xbox SX but it will most likely have a small straight forward rendering advantage also.

Unless y'all think that most games will push the limits of compute to the point where 18% more compute is going to unleash the Kraken.

What's funny about it is the fact that Microsoft themselves said that their SSD can be used as virtual ram but some folks think PS5's much faster SSD won't have any advantages other than load times SMH

 

[CJY]

I swear I have seen people who said that they don’t want to touch Xbox One just because it is weaker although the first 3 years of Xbox was far more interesting than PS4’s offerings. Yes last gen power lmattered like never before.

ANNND... gone.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Like I said, your bubble makes you see what you want.

Isn’t it ironic, don’t you think Alanis taking to others about bubbles?!

 

[prinz_valium]

I love how some are trying to paint it as PS5 will only have a loading time advantage over Xbox SX but it will most likely have a small straight forward rendering advantage also.

Unless y'all think that most games will push the limits of compute to the point where 18% more compute is going to unleash the Kraken.

 

[Panajev2001a]

ANNND... gone.

It really did a number on part of a fan base that was built entirely on having the performance crown, tasted domination in sales too, to then be outsold so much with a 30% and something weaker console that cost $100 more than the other at retail and had no off the selves user replaceable storage either (you know evil Sony and their proprietary storage... oh how the tune has changed and it is the Pro Consumer thing to do again apparently).

 

[Panajev2001a]

Y Yujin19

on the PS5 ssd you can supposably use can use it as RAM which is crazy

Oh this is just hilarious... From MS’s own PR:

In last year's Project Scarlett E3 teaser, Jason Ronald - partner director of project management at Xbox - described how the SSD could be used as 'virtual memory', a teaser of sorts that only begins to hint at the functionality Microsoft has built into its system.

Now spin away ...

 

[Bernkastel]

You don't sense the irony that the guy whose tweet you just posted, is working on an Xbox exclusive?
Dynamic Voltage games doesn't understand the PS5's setup and believes the CPU will bottleneck the SSD (???????????????), despite having never worked with a PS5 or used its development tools...?


Even that other guy who you keep mentioning who works for Space X or whatever, has previously worked directly for Microsoft as a game developer...
All the people with ties to Sony are to be under suspicion because of potential biases, but people who are either currently directly working with, or have previously held deep working relationships with Microsoft are perfectly reliable...?

And you ignored ex-Guerilla Games dev who also says he asked other devs. He has no connection to MS anyway. Also, no one cares that Richard Geldreich worked at Ensemble(it was not even a Xbox studio) a decade ago, thats like saying Cerny has a bias for Sega or Bungie has a Microsoft bias

 

[DaMonsta]

Isn’t it ironic, don’t you think Alanis taking to others about bubbles?!

I’m not even sure what you are talking about with the bolded, but it’s clear your only “see” what you want to see.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Personally, I can't wait until a few months from now when we will start to see the games from Sony's 1st parties and close partners. That's when we'll see what this "weak" system can do. And when we start seeing Only on PlayStation in the trailers, we can let the PC port begging begin. PS is going to win on what's made them win 3 gens out of 4, price and games, games, games.

This comment comes off as very arrogant and pretty much why I hate the attitude of some PS gamers.

You guys are going to brag about a game's subjective artwork/assets and tout it as some kind of technical achievement like you always do every generation. As far as the port begging, it's never been a reality until just a year ago that Sony would even distribute an exclusive game to another platform. Even if there are PC gamers that port beg, if it comes out on the PC, it'll will look better and run faster than the PS5.

Get over this superiority BS I see everyday.

 

[Mendou]

What brand of glue are you guys sniffing?

Why don't you PS5 fans DEMAND that Cerny tell you the baseclock speed; he never has. All you guys are arguing is the boosted clock (which he claims is sustainable most of the time), but have zero clue what the true, STABLE clock speed is.

And from what I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong), for the GPU to run at its peak freq, the CPU has to throttle down to the lowest clock speed. So, what Cerny is saying is, because there's an SSD roughly twice as fast, but with slower RAM, slower CPU (even when in boost) and less TF, they have a more powerful machine? Give me a break. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure this out (and I'm an CompTIA A+ certified technician - I know more than a thing or two about these things).

Yall are drinking that juice, hard and fast.

What's sad about all of this is, the fact (and I could be wrong; am I?) that for the GPU to perform optimally, the CPU has to throttle down, it means that even if the GPU is running at its highest clock speeds (or near it) consistently, it means the CPU will be running at its lowest clock speed consistently, which is just terrible, terrible design.

Sometimes it's best to just let it go. No one's mind is going to change from buying the system they want just because they read a comment or two on here. If they don't want to accept it, then there's no talking sense into them. Just let it go.

 

[Represent.]

Damn. Sounds sick. Sony first party will yet again be the cream of the crop visually.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Y Yujin19


Oh this is just hilarious... From MS’s own PR:


Now spin away ...

You should tag the other guy too lol

 

[LittleBigGamer]

This comment comes off as very arrogant and pretty much why I hate the attitude of some PS gamers.

You guys are going to brag about a game's subjective artwork/assets and tout it as some kind of technical achievement like you always do every generation. As far as the port begging, it's never been a reality until just a year ago that Sony would even distribute an exclusive game to another platform. Even if there are PC gamers that port beg, if it comes out on the PC, it'll will look better and run faster than the PS5.

Get over this superiority BS I see everyday.

You call it arrogance because you don't like Sony. He said the truth.
The only arrogance I see in the gaming industry is coming for the pc side.

This ''master race'' thing will never be surpassed, by any ''race'' of gamers.