Support NeoGAF

[PaintTinJr]

Yes like I mentioned before both machines are able to use their RT cores for audio computations. That is a very seperate topic, the discussion was about the custom audio chips.

Audio is a wave effect and ray tracing simulates rays. It will be very interesting to see how close Sony can approximate realistic room audio with RT.

As I understand it, RT audio was like version 1 of Playstation's 3D audio strategy all the way back on PS3 with GT5's car interior RT simulation of engine sounds (then output to stereo/surround).This version 2 approach will still use the version 1 simulation for producing the source sound (AFAIK), but on the GPU this time, before the signal is past to the Tempest 3D audio engine. The tempest engine is to replace the surround capabilities to create a vastly more immersive virtual surround for headphones(as its primary target) that can convincingly recreate the game's soundstage in any ear(using HRTF conversion) to the level of being indistinguishable from the gamer being surrounded with those sounds in real-life. - which ism't the level ATMOS or other 3D audio is at (IMHO). The solution needed to achieve that heady goal in Playstation's view are seemingly open-ended, at present based on Cerny's GDC talk and that is presumably why the Tempest engine is packing so much versatile compute.

 

[SgtCaffran]

how so? is there something more beyond reverberation and delay for acoustic effects?
also what sony is to doing for sound:

• HRTF
• < 100 hq sound sources
• ambisonics
• convolution reverb(more realistic reverb then traditional reverb, compute expensive) , echo
• sound locality
• RT-audio

your term full room simulation is reverb, echo, locality you can argue about quality of these effects but there's nothing more to sound waves, acoustics then that.

Please let's stick to the topic, you don't have to bring in points that are outside the scope. You have already seen from my earlier post that I understand the HRTF component of the Tempest Engine.

So audio tricks have been used plenty in games so far to mimic real audio. For example, in a cave the audio mix would get a clear echo effect. However, this is just a standard effect and does not actually simulate the room and position you are in. Xbox has Project Acoustics which simulates each environment with offline Azure wave computations (offline as in pre-baked) that are simplified into models that can be used in the XsX. This way, it is possible for static enviroments to have actual simulated room audio. So yes, there is definitely more to audio then some effects, even if they are really convincing. (think of it like traditional lighting vs. ray traced lighting, mimic vs. simulation)

you still think PS5 won't provide reverb? that's why i told you about audio RT.

Don't put words in my mouth that I have never used! Again, I am aware that both machines can use raytracing for audio. I'm very interested in how close they are able to simulate audio waves with rays. I'm sure we will get closer to ground truth with ray tracing and some smart tricks/assumptions.

 

[CrysisFreak]

I'm on the sim/realistic side, FM8 and GT7 will decide which console I'll get first, but I have a low faith in the latter one judging by its last 3 installments... But I still hope Kaz/PD can redeem themselves, they have all the processing power and memory they need, no more excuses this time around.

I think the next Gran Turismo just needs to do two things:
-Include a fun single player career
-Convey the sense of speed better than it does now

 

[SgtCaffran]

As I understand it, RT audio was like version 1 of Playstation's 3D audio strategy all the way back on PS3 with GT5's car interior RT simulation of engine sounds (then output to stereo/surround).This version 2 approach will still use the version 1 simulation for producing the source sound (AFAIK), but on the GPU this time, before the signal is past to the Tempest 3D audio engine. The tempest engine is to replace the surround capabilities to create a vastly more immersive virtual surround for headphones(as its primary target) that can convincingly recreate the game's soundstage in any ear(using HRTF conversion) to the level of being indistinguishable from the gamer being surrounded with those sounds in real-life. - which ism't the level ATMOS or other 3D audio is at (IMHO). The solution needed to achieve that heady goal in Playstation's view are seemingly open-ended, at present based on Cerny's GDC talk and that is presumably why the Tempest engine is packing so much versatile compute.

Yes that's exactly right. It's a shame that Cerny didn't focus more on how the raytracing audio aspect will work in combination with the Tempest Engine and if there are other tricks that the Tempest Engine will be used for. I am mainly interested in how well rays can be used for audio wave computations.

 

[Bonsaibäumchen]

Some people know it, sure, others have invested a lot of time into fudging the facts to create an impression that the PS5 is technically superior hardware by zeroing in on very specific features and downplaying any Series X advantage. It goes on for page after page as if the spec reveals never happened.

It would be shame if anyone was mislead by that spin - and they well could be if they were to come to this thread late.

I'm not trying to get people to 'renounce their PS5' purchase at all, the PS5 will be awesome on it's own terms. Nor am I 'gloating', all I'm doing is restating the known facts when it seems that they've been forgotten or buried by an avalanche of denials.

Restating those facts is not something that should upset anyone.

Actually most of the debates here since sonys gdc talk were kinda pointless. There are currently to many unknowns on both sides about the specs.

I wouldn't even mind if xbox was overall 20% better in every regard because I haven't seen anything gamewise yet that would hype me. A new Fable sounds nice, at least if they would go back to Fable 1 style and iterate upon that. I didn't like the sequels.

So for now I am still only interested in Sonys next gen Games. And I don't even care buying a 500€ console just for another God of War, HZD, Darksouls/Bloodborn, Kojima, Quantic Dream, Naughty Dog game. All of them together would still be enough for me to justify the purchase.
And as far as I can tell - I'll be able to play all xbox games on my pc which I've planned to upgrade by the end of the year anyways. Maybe I'll even wait a little longer until the next gen has arrived and pc hardware (pcie4 nvme drives and maybe even ddr5 ram) will try to catch up to or surpass those consoles.

Btw.: Hopefully the DualSense Controller will be usable on pc's and haptic feedback is gonne be supported by more Games & manufacutrers

 

[PaintTinJr]

...
So audio tricks have been used plenty in games so far to mimic real audio. For example, in a cave the audio mix would get a clear echo effect. However, this is just a standard effect and does not actually simulate the room and position you are in. Xbox has Project Acoustics which simulates each environment with offline Azure wave computations (offline as in pre-baked) that are simplified into models that can be used in the XsX. This way, it is possible for static enviroments to have actual simulated room audio. So yes, there is definitely more to audio then some effects, even if they are really convincing. (think of it like traditional lighting vs. ray traced lighting, mimic vs. simulation)
….

That's interesting that XsX is effectively going the lightmapping route and PS5 is going the RT route for audio, when added to the difference of a solution like ATMOS, vs the Tempest engine it will be very revealing if gamers will appreciate each approach, and notice the difference in quality like we can between visuals of Quake2 and Quake 2 RT.

 

[FeiRR]

Yes that's exactly right. It's a shame that Cerny didn't focus more on how the raytracing audio aspect will work in combination with the Tempest Engine and if there are other tricks that the Tempest Engine will be used for. I am mainly interested in how well rays can be used for audio wave computations.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't know yet. They're providing devs with toolsets to explore and develop. What devs do with those toolsets will probably take years to discover. I don't expect this aspect of next gen to be prominent in launch or year 1 or 2 games. Graphics sells games much better than audio (which I regret but also understand). I think VR games will be the first to explore sound RT in detail.

 

[Goof Mikey]

Hey people, just wanna y’all here about next-gen console and things like that, do you guys think Xbox Series X will be revealed in June 2020 or May?

Just wanna have some talks and fun.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Some people know it, sure, others have invested a lot of time into fudging the facts to create an impression that the PS5 is technically superior hardware by zeroing in on very specific features and downplaying any Series X advantage. It goes on for page after page as if the spec reveals never happened.

It would be shame if anyone was mislead by that spin - and they well could be if they were to come to this thread late.

I'm not trying to get people to 'renounce their PS5' purchase at all, the PS5 will be awesome on it's own terms. Nor am I 'gloating', all I'm doing is restating the known facts when it seems that they've been forgotten or buried by an avalanche of denials.

Restating those facts is not something that should upset anyone.

Xbox being the best place to play third parties next gen isn't a fact, at least in the real world. The only thing that is a fact is that on paper XBX has a higher theoretical amount of TFLOPs due to having an higher amount of CUs. That's literally where the buck stops as far as facts go. After that all we have is a bunch of technobabble mambo jambo being thrown at the wall by everyone and their mothers because for some it's not the advantage they hoped for, and for others it's inconceivable that PS5 won't be the performance leader.

Fact is the GPU in the XBX should allow for pixel counters to have something to talk about in H2H comparisons, that or less dropped frames here and there. We have been witnessing diminishing returns grow as the generations go by, and I'm not even going to bother comparing the PS4 to XB1, I'll go straight to PS4 vs PS4 pro. The Pro was my first PS4 and I was convinced of the difference it made until I sold it and then got myself a Slim later because I was bored. To my surprise, on a 55' I was over the resolution difference after five minutes. HDR apparently is a much bigger boost to visual impact than resolution, so I can only imagine dynamic res is going to make the job of pixel counters fruitless.

As made apparent by Nintendo numerous times, power is meaningless and specs only matter if it means the hardware can provide an experience that is fundamentally different.

The SSD in the PS5 should mean a snappier, more responsive system with shorter loading times. The GPU in the XBX should deliver more stable frame rates. Aside from these small differences it seems to me they are trying to provide very similar experiences, from services to games. The big difference will eventually come down to exclusives and brand. And honestly I can't blame Sony on this, the pressure is absolutely on Microsoft to deliver something different than Sony and not the other way around.

 

[nosseman]

Nope, it had traces of PS5 being Navi 10 Lite.

No, it did not.

If you insist that it did - please post a source.

I cant post a source since its pretty much impossible to link to something that does not exist.

PS5 and Xbox Series X GPU specs leak: how powerful is next-gen?

A remarkable story unfolded last April where it seemed that an intrepid explorer of the 3DMark benchmark database stumb…

www.eurogamer.net

The Gonzalo leak back in April suggested that PlayStation 5 would feature a Zen 2-based CPU cluster running at 3.2GHz paired with a Navi graphics core running at 1.8GHz. Slightly less concrete evidence linked to PCI Express identifiers suggested that AMD was referring to the GPU as 'Navi 10 Lite' - inferring heavily that the GPU would have the same 40 compute units as the PC-based Navi 10 part found in the RX 5700 and RX 5700 XT (with four CUs likely disabled for improved yields from the production line). The test leaks that emerged in recent days tell us nothing about the CPU component but confirm 36 available compute units running at 2.0GHz - which while unconfirmed would give us a 9.2 teraflop GPU for PlayStation 5.

The Navi 10 Lite was from the Gonzalo leak. Github leak said nothing about Navi 10 Lite. It also seems like the Gonzales leak did not spell out "Navi 10 Lite" and is perhaps just speculation.

So - in summary - github leak did not say anything about "Navi 10 Lite".

 

[Panajev2001a]

Some people know it, sure, others have invested a lot of time into fudging the facts to create an impression that the PS5 is technically superior hardware by zeroing in on very specific features and downplaying any Series X advantage. It goes on for page after page as if the spec reveals never happened.

This feels bit like projecting, after the reveals occurred I read a lot more about boost clocks being a farce, supposed major overheating problems, the very fast SSD being a waste of time on top of what XSX had, Tempest being a waste of resources on top of what XSX provides, higher clockspeed for the GPU (outside of the CU’s and per CU, etc...) having no or very minor effects, etc... I have seen one side so obsessed with the specs dominance narrative where anything that could be seen as an advantage on the PS5 side or as something that makes the gap more narrow cannot even be part of the conversation: total and utter surrender seems to be the the end goal of such discussions.
Are you concerned about poor consumers or the XSX brand image?

I honestly see more Xbox supporters pushing a message like “focus only on TFLOPS, any other bit XSX either has it too or XSX has enough and anything on top of it is overkill and won’t make a difference to customers”.
This is on top of another narrative around real clocks of PS5 being far lower and trying to prove the clock speed differential is essentially meaningless at best.
I do not see this many PS5 fans constructing evidently false scenarios where PS5 is overall superior. I see two consoles with specs close to each other and pros and cons of each solution.

Restating those facts is not something that should upset anyone.

If it is inserted in the right context, someone stating that PS5 will be faster at rendering than XSX without any qualifications, yes. Else, it seems to veer off slightly into a not so thinly veiled “let’s ensure people do not get excited about PS5”.

 

[LED Guy?]

No, it did not.

If you insist that it did - please post a source.

I cant post a source since its pretty much impossible to link to something that does not exist.

PS5 and Xbox Series X GPU specs leak: how powerful is next-gen?

A remarkable story unfolded last April where it seemed that an intrepid explorer of the 3DMark benchmark database stumb…

www.eurogamer.net

The Navi 10 Lite was from the Gonzalo leak. Github leak said nothing about Navi 10 Lite. It also seems like the Gonzales leak did not spell out "Navi 10 Lite" and is perhaps just speculation.

So - in summary - github leak did not say anything about "Navi 10 Lite".

Ariel was in GitHub, Ariel had a stepping to Oberon, it is the same GPU codename and numbers.

 

[Imtjnotu]

BO gone again? Lol damn dude

 

[Goof Mikey]

<snip>

 

[Handy Fake]

BO gone again? Lol damn dude

It's a pity, he's a good poster. I think he's just having a bit of banter with folk and because the thread can get so toxic it's being mistaken as unpleasantness.
But yer know, need to go easy on these threads. Everyone's on eggshells.

 

[nosseman]

Ariel was in GitHub, Ariel had a stepping to Oberon, it is the same GPU codename and numbers.

Short one liners and no proof or sources.

Again - Navi 10 Lite was from the Gonzales leak back in April and even that isnt completely confirmed - it is just speculation.

The notion that someone faked all the info in the github leak just to make Sony look bad AND AT THE SAME TIME nail almost all of the details - that is just... well - that is some conspiracy peddling right there.

 

[Darius87]

Please let's stick to the topic, you don't have to bring in points that are outside the scope. You have already seen from my earlier post that I understand the HRTF component of the Tempest Engine.

and what's is topic? next-gen speculation and next-gen audio includes that, so we are good
the points i'm making that PS5 is more capable in audio the what we know so far from xsex and that your 'full room simulation' statement is nothing more then accurate reverbs, echoes, and sound locality.
sony has that + more that's why it's better.

So audio tricks have been used plenty in games so far to mimic real audio. For example, in a cave the audio mix would get a clear echo effect. However, this is just a standard effect and does not actually simulate the room and position you are in. Xbox has Project Acoustics which simulates each environment with offline Azure wave computations (offline as in pre-baked) that are simplified into models that can be used in the XsX. This way, it is possible for static enviroments to have actual simulated room audio. So yes, there is definitely more to audio then some effects, even if they are really convincing. (think of it like traditional lighting vs. ray traced lighting, mimic vs. simulation)

what you're talking about is offline computation of convolution reverb, echo basically servers calculates x, y, z of enviroment walls, floor, ceiling, objects in enviroment and creates 3d map of it and then applies(bakes in) convolution reverb to that map i can do that in my DAW with of course that's just 2d x, y axis with far less accuaracy and quality(because it would kill cpu) but i'm still get sense of different enviroments and can apply to any sound.
but if you telling me that's somehow is better then ps5 method which can do same thing like cerny mentioned in ps5 video and also in different way to do it with RT(not sure extend of this method because it requires a lot of bounces for accurate reverb) you're clearly very wrong, because there's nothing more to acoustics then reverb, echo and locality if you know something more please i'm all ears.
how you can expand on this method? is improve quality like sony did by simulating individual ears with (HRTF) and increasing quality of locality with more sound sources.

Don't put words in my mouth that I have never used! Again, I am aware that both machines can use raytracing for audio. I'm very interested in how close they are able to simulate audio waves with rays. I'm sure we will get closer to ground truth with ray tracing and some smart tricks/assumptions.

you said it yourself

PS5 Tempest Engine
- DOES provide real 3D audio simulation of our ears (sounds direction, locality, presence, PSVR)
- DOES NOT provide room reflections, reverb (indoor, outdoor, caves, etc)
- DOES provide computational room for developers to use on audio

that's the whole point i'm making PS5 have reverb with or witout RT-Audio.

 

[Imtjnotu]

It's a pity, he's a good poster. I think he's just having a bit of banter with folk and because the thread can get so toxic it's being mistaken as unpleasantness.
But yer know, need to go easy on these threads. Everyone's on eggshells.

I don't get why people report on the first place. It's a forum lol no need to take it all that seriously

 

[Neo Blaster]

Some people know it, sure, others have invested a lot of time into fudging the facts to create an impression that the PS5 is technically superior hardware by zeroing in on very specific features and downplaying any Series X advantage. It goes on for page after page as if the spec reveals never happened.

It would be shame if anyone was mislead by that spin - and they well could be if they were to come to this thread late.

I'm not trying to get people to 'renounce their PS5' purchase at all, the PS5 will be awesome on it's own terms. Nor am I 'gloating', all I'm doing is restating the known facts when it seems that they've been forgotten or buried by an avalanche of denials.

Restating those facts is not something that should upset anyone.

Yes, there are those like you say, but I see many people here just trying to counter the '12 TERAFLAAAAPS be it all' narrative by showing how PS5 can 'close the gap' in other ways and how these machines are so close, as already stated by devs and people in the know and fiercely denied by Xbox fanboys.

 

[Agnostic2020]

I’m sure you’re very well aware but at least if you wanted to, you could purchase a detachable mic . I have a beloved pair of audio-technica cans and the mod mic. Perfection.


I do wonder if this is somewhat necessarily true given how more powerful the Series X is (in its notable ways) over the PS5...if it almost must be more expensive, etc.

So for cost :

Well xsx has 17% more powerfull gup and 3% faster cpu . Ps5 has 125% faster ssd with 12 pin vs 3 pin ssd of xsx which is much more expensive than the xsx one . Ps5 controller is more expensive than xsx controller.ps5 cooling solution will be more expensive to make . All of these are costs. So its not so easy to say ps5 is cheaper to make with certainty . But with that said I expect ps5 to come 50$ under xsx .

 

[ZywyPL]

The SSD in the PS5 should mean a snappier, more responsive system with shorter loading times.

Should? Based on what? CPU is the reason everything is performing so poorly on current-gen consoles, same as insufficient RAM slowed the hell out of PS3/X360 OS, basically CPU and RAM are solely responsible for how the OS behave, be it gaming consoles, PCs, laptops, tablets, smartphones etc. This SSD BS is really getting lame, annoying and out of control now, people are giving it more properties then the holy water itself, next week I'm probably gonna read that PS5 SSD is indeed the key to cure COVID19...

 

[LED Guy?]

Should? Based on what? CPU is the reason everything is performing so poorly on current-gen consoles, same as insufficient RAM slowed the hell out of PS3/X360 OS, basically CPU and RAM are solely responsible for how the OS behave, be it gaming consoles, PCs, laptops, tablets, smartphones etc. This SSD BS is really getting lame, annoying and out of control now, people are giving it more properties then the holy water itself, next week I'm probably gonna read that PS5 SSD is indeed the key to cure COVID19...



That SSD still too slow for 60 I see...

This doesn't have anything with SSD, SSDs can stream date in/out, that's all, if you exceed SSD speeds then your FPS will degrade, but this is more towards GPU I think.

 

[Agnostic2020]

Short one liners and no proof or sources.

Again - Navi 10 Lite was from the Gonzales leak back in April and even that isnt completely confirmed - it is just speculation.

The notion that someone faked all the info in the github leak just to make Sony look bad AND AT THE SAME TIME nail almost all of the details - that is just... well - that is some conspiracy peddling right there.

No github was correct . At that time ofcourse amd didn't have rdna2 yet so sony was doing the BC tests with rdna1(github at June 2019 was rdna 1 as the test profile is same as navi 10 tests which are rdna1) . so they didn't want to wait to start all those tests when rdna2 becomes available to them by AMD which was around November-December 2019. Github was oberon B0 . Oberon E0 added rdna 2 and increased clock even more as rdna2 is more efficient with clock and power consumption compared to rdna1.

So yea Github was correct but it was RDNA1 as AMD didn't have rdna2 at that time (mid 2019)ready to sony or MS for their tests.

 

[Redlight]

This feels bit like projecting, after the reveals occurred I read a lot more about boost clocks being a farce, supposed major overheating problems, the very fast SSD being a waste of time on top of what XSX had, Tempest being a waste of resources on top of what XSX provides, higher clockspeed for the GPU (outside of the CU’s and per CU) having not effect or very minor, etc... I have seen one side so obsessed with the specs dominance narrative where anything that could be seen as an advantage on the PS5 side or as something that makes the gap more narrow cannot even be part of the conversation: total and utter surrender seems to be the the end goal of such discussions.
Are you concerned about poor consumers or the XSX brand image?

I honestly see more Xbox supporters pushing a message like “focus only on TFLOPS, any other bit XSX either has it too or XSX has enough and anything on top of it is overkill and won’t make a difference to customers”.
This is on top of another narrative around real clocks of PS5 being far lower and trying to prove the clock speed differential is essentially meaningless at best.
I do not see this many PS5 fans constructing evidently false scenarios where PS5 is overall superior. I see two consoles with specs close to each other and pros and cons of each solution.



If it is inserted in the right context, someone stating that PS5 will be faster at rendering than XSX without any qualifications, yes. Else, it seems to veer off slightly into a not so thinly veiled “let’s ensure people do not get excited about PS5”.

It may well be that you notice more 'Xbox supporters' because it's those posts that pose a challenge your own narrative.

We have published specs that detail a clear advantage in power for the Series X and a clear advantage for the PS5 in terms of SSD speed. Those are the facts. Posts that claim 'the gap has been closed because of...' bear the entire burden of proof, not the other way around.

By the way, those published specs are, in no way, a reason to avoid the PS5. I'll say it again, the PS5 will be awesome, Sony's internal studios will guarantee it.

That said, it will simply not be as powerful and third-party games will likely be better on the Series X based on what we actually know.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Should? Based on what? CPU is the reason everything is performing so poorly on current-gen consoles, same as insufficient RAM slowed the hell out of PS3/X360 OS, basically CPU and RAM are solely responsible for how the OS behave, be it gaming consoles, PCs, laptops, tablets, smartphones etc. This SSD BS is really getting lame, annoying and out of control now, people are giving it more properties then the holy water itself, next week I'm probably gonna read that PS5 SSD is indeed the key to cure COVID19...

Clearly you are arguing in extremely bad faith going by the ridiculous tangent at the end of your post. That said, SSDs improving the speed of an OS experience seems pretty factual? What else would explain how much they improve boot times and loadings on PC?

Replacing an HDD for an SSD has been one of the more significant upgrades in Laptops/PCs. Old laptops feel new when you make the switch.

Can't even understand where you're coming from, as arguing from your position the conclusion is that SSDs are a smoke screen, a conspiracy or something, as they provide literally no advantages.

 

[SgtCaffran]

and what's is topic? next-gen speculation and next-gen audio includes that, so we are good
the points i'm making that PS5 is more capable in audio the what we know so far from xsex and that your 'full room simulation' statement is nothing more then accurate reverbs, echoes, and sound locality.
sony has that + more that's why it's better.

The topic was misunderstanding of Tempest Engine vs Project Acoustics which I helped clear up (again). Then you take my post and mention some stuff about RT like I wasn't aware or was ignoring that. I don't understand why you are making this a PS5 vs XsX is better thing, that was not my point AT ALL.

what you're talking about is offline computation of convolution reverb, echo basically servers calculates x, y, z of enviroment walls, floor, ceiling, objects in enviroment and creates 3d map of it and then applies(bakes in) convolution reverb to that map i can do that in my DAW with of course that's just 2d x, y axis with far less accuaracy and quality(because it would kill cpu) but i'm still get sense of different enviroments and can apply to any sound.
but if you telling me that's somehow is better then ps5 method which can do same thing like cerny mentioned in ps5 video and also in different way to do it with RT(not sure extend of this method because it requires a lot of bounces for accurate reverb) you're clearly very wrong, because there's nothing more to acoustics then reverb, echo and locality if you know something more please i'm all ears.
how you can expand on this method? is improve quality like sony did by simulating individual ears with (HRTF) and increasing quality of locality with more sound sources.

Yes that's exactly what I am talking about, that's why I was talking about it Thank you for repeating. There is a difference between fully simulated room acoustics and generalised effects. It's that simple, I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion I'm wrong about something?

you said it yourself

that's the whole point i'm making PS5 have reverb with or witout RT-Audio.

Sure developers can use Tempest Engine resources for reverb, that's not the point, though. The topic of this debate was about differences between the Tempest Engine (HRTF) and Project Acoustics (Acoustic room simulation). In the context of that topic, the Tempest Engine does not deliver room and reverb simulation (it delivers HRTF 3D audio which is awesome!). But again, yes resources can be used to do calculations on reverb filters. And yes, raytracing hardware can be used for simulation (but this is not part of the Tempest Engine... hence my point).

 

[Neo Blaster]

Well xsx has 17% more powerfull gpu and 3% more powerfull cpu . Ps5 has 125% faster ssd with 12 pin vs 3 pin ssd of xsx which is much more expensive than the xsx one . Ps5 controller is more expensive than xsx controller.ps5 cooling solution will be more expensive to make . All of these are costs. So its not so easy to say ps5 is cheaper to make with certainty . But with that said I expect ps5 to come 50$ under xsx .

One has to wonder whether less CUs in your APU can save enough to offset that expensive SSD/I/O and cooling solution. I really don't think so.

 

[Panajev2001a]

It may well be that you notice more 'Xbox supporters' because it's those posts that pose a challenge your own narrative.

Or maybe because the behaviour I have outlined is factual .

We have published specs that detail a clear advantage in power for the Series X and a clear advantage for the PS5 in terms of SSD speed. Those are the facts. Posts that claim 'the gap has been closed because of...' bear the entire burden of proof, not the other way around

We have specs that provide one metric with a higher number: TFLOPS count and RT intersection units. Behind the numbers and some reasonings that can be made from them, not as wild as some are making, statements pro and con near a similar burden of proof.

I am taking MS’s word for it that they can reliably reach 12.3 TFLOPS in realistic/non synthetic benchmarks too just as much as you should be able accept Cerny’s word on advantages of higher clockspeed on the overall GPU performance and that most of the time the GPU will run at 2.23 GHz with a few short scenarios where it may be 1-2% below that as explained in the talk.

 

[Thirty7ven]

One has to wonder whether less CUs in your APU can save enough to offset that expensive SSD/I/O and cooling solution. I really don't think so.

Why is PS5's SSD I/O solution more expensive than XBX? The theory doesn't seem to hold much water. Seems like just because it's faster therefore it must mean its more expensive to manufacture, when that doesn't need to be the case. And reports on BOM showed a ~50$ difference, so can you explain your theory?

 

[ZywyPL]

This doesn't have anything with SSD, SSDs can stream date in/out, that's all, if you exceed SSD speeds then your FPS will degrade, but this is more towards GPU I think.

I'm not so sure about it - when Cerny said during his presentation it might be possible to stream on the fly textures that are behind the camera it immediately raised my attention, because if this will indeed be the case the games will have to prevent players from spinning too fast, which will directly translate to slow/sloppy gameplay (like it isn't enough already), and possibly even limit the framerate to 30FPS to double the frametime, to absolutely assure enough time for those textures to be streamed in on time. The mentioned half a second seems like not much, but compared to 16/33ms each frame needs, 500ms is like eternity. I really can imagine all Sony's 1st party titles for PS5 to be limited to 30FPS in order to leverage that SSD on-demand streaming, which I won't lie, would be a letdown for me. The idea is really neat, you want ideally render only what you are displaying, but I think it's still too early for such tricks.

Clearly you are arguing in extremely bad faith going by the ridiculous tangent at the end of your post. That said, SSDs improving the speed of an OS experience seems pretty factual? What else would explain how much they improve boot times and loadings on PC?

Replacing an HDD for an SSD has been one of the more significant upgrades in Laptops/PCs. Old laptops feel new when you make the switch.

Can't even understand where you're coming from, as arguing from your position the conclusion is that SSDs are a smoke screen, a conspiracy or something, as they provide literally no advantages.

Yes, SSD does significantly improve the loadings for an OS, but even on HDD, even a 5400RPM one, once the system is fully loaded the responsiveness has little to do with the storage drive. The entire Jaguar CPU is weaker than a single core in a PC CPU for comparison, and the consoles use only 1/8th of it for their OS, literally just a single core out of 8, that's the bottleneck here, not the storage drive. You can already change your internal drive in PS4 for an SSD, but it doesn't change much. Next-gen consoles will most definitely finally have super responsive dashboards, but that's thanks to Zen2 CPU and more than enough RAM, not the switch to SSD storage.

 

[SlimySnake]

So for cost :

Well xsx has 17% more powerfull gup and 3% faster cpu . Ps5 has 125% faster ssd with 12 pin vs 3 pin ssd of xsx which is much more expensive than the xsx one . Ps5 controller is more expensive than xsx controller.ps5 cooling solution will be more expensive to make . All of these are costs. So its not so easy to say ps5 is cheaper to make with certainty . But with that said I expect ps5 to come 50$ under xsx .

Sony is probably saving $20 on the slightly smaller APU. maybe less if all the custom i/o stuff is taking up the same amount of space as the series x's CUs. they should save around $20 on the ram. then again MS also cheaped out with the ram and bought 6gb of even cheaper ram so they both might even out here. their cooling solution isnt very expensive if the bloomberg article is to be believed. Penello seemed surprised that a cooling solution could be a few dollars presumably because they spend a lot on vapor chamber cooling, but sony might have something here thats really good and really inexpensive.

so yeah, its possible it comes under $50, but its also entirely possible both are $499 consoles.

 

[nosseman]

I am taking MS’s word for it that they can reliably reach 12.3 TFLOPS in realistic/non synthetic benchmarks too just as much as you should be able accept Cerny’s word on advantages of higher clockspeed on the overall GPU performance and that most of the time the GPU will run at 2.23 GHz with a few short scenarios where it may be 1-2% below that as explained in the talk.

I dont get it.

All this time i have heard "2 TFLOP is NOTHING!!! You cant tell the difference" and then Sony make this convoluted boost-system for a measly 0.15-0.3 TFLOP extra (2% lower clock speed = 2 % lower tflop).

Something does not add up. Either Sony thinks that every speck of tflop is important and/or it is much more than 1-2% down clocking.

 

[FeiRR]

We have published specs that detail a clear advantage in power for the Series X and a clear advantage for the PS5 in terms of SSD speed. Those are the facts.

Could you point to the tech sheet which states specifications of the respective PSUs to support what you're saying? Thank you.

 

[Mod of War]

<snip>

Check your PMs.

 

[Fake]

Check your PMs.

Oh boy.

 

[Neo Blaster]

Why is PS5's SSD I/O solution more expensive than XBX? The theory doesn't seem to hold much water. Seems like just because it's faster therefore it must mean its more expensive to manufacture, when that doesn't need to be the case. And reports on BOM showed a ~50$ difference, so can you explain your theory?

Cerny's presentation showed a lot of custom silicon(custom SSD controller, kraken decompressor, coherency, cache scrubbers etc) and there are four more lanes than SX's SSD. Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for a 'drop the mic' price announcement, but all this stuff seems too pricey to me.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

But the cache scrubbers were added, no? I meant neither Sony or MS will probably change the core units of RDNA 2.
Add more stuffs is reasonable.

Of course I’m guessing.

It seems Sony have added cache scrubbers to some hierarchy of local cache on the GPU, yes. Haven't heard anything about MS doing similar, but they have made mention of adding ECC function to the GDDR6 memory.

Conceptually they're doing similar things (not exactly similar, but similar enough): keeping the pipeline clean of bit errors and other things related to memory scrubbing. But they are doing it at different hierarchies of the memory stack.

Fair enough, maybe it'll be used as inspiration for a RDNA3 feature, I think its reasonable to assume given Cerny comments that it isn't a core RDNA2 feature at least?

BTW we need more precise lenguage to make a distinction between hardware features that devs program and see (RT, TSS, Mesh Shaders, VRS etc) and hardware features that are invisible to the developer and happen automatically like Cache Scrubbers or GNC->RDNA changes that made it more efficient

Yes we do, but I doubt it will happen. It benefits these companies to be loosy-goosy with their terminology if it helps sell the idea of a fancy design all done in-house, even if parts of that very same design are just rebrandings of stock features from someone providing all the "muscle" (AMD).

 

[Thirty7ven]

Yes, SSD does significantly improve the loadings for an OS, but even on HDD, even a 5400RPM one, once the system is fully loaded the responsiveness has little to do with the storage drive. The entire Jaguar CPU is weaker than a single core in a PC CPU for comparison, and the consoles use only 1/8th of it for their OS, literally just a single core out of 8, that's the bottleneck here, not the storage drive. You can already change your internal drive in PS4 for an SSD, but it doesn't change much. Next-gen consoles will most definitely finally have super responsive dashboards, but that's thanks to Zen2 CPU and more than enough RAM, not the switch to SSD storage.

I don't think you can store all apps in RAM, so every time you launch an app the SSD will make a difference. That's part of the OS experience. Switching games like MS showed are only possible with the SSD, and that too is part of the experience. It's not just about switching tiles and how fast you can do that, that's just an aspect of the interaction the user has with the system.

 

[thurnishaleygw]

Check your PMs.

 

[David Ricardo]

It is always important to have a good margin of maneuver. Especially in a system like PS5 designed to be as efficient as possible from the beginning. Variable speeds, SmartShift, ...

Edit.- Tomorrow from the computer I can make a better explanation. Morpheo owns me right now.

Are you alright?

 

[Gudji]

<snip>

Check your PMs.

 

[Goof Mikey]

Just replied to him.

 

[Apollo Helios]

Check your PMs.

Just replied to him.

For whom the bell tolls....

BTW is your name a play on Geoff Keighley???

 

[FranXico]

Just replied to him.

Took you long enough to come back, Tommy.

 

[CrysisFreak]

Just replied to him.

I'm legit laughing my ass off. What a madlad. Creating a new account and "leaking" the PS5 reveal with so much confidence haha

 

[Darius87]

The topic was misunderstanding of Tempest Engine vs Project Acoustics which I helped clear up (again). Then you take my post and mention some stuff about RT like I wasn't aware or was ignoring that. I don't understand why you are making this a PS5 vs XsX is better thing, that was not my point AT ALL.

i'm not making PS5 vs XsX just saying that you're wrong on your comparison your made before tempest engine can provide room reflections, reverb (indoor, outdoor, caves, etc) even posted video where cerny tells that.

However, this does not have anything to do (at least from what has been currently shared) with sound reflections and reverb in rooms.

TL;DR
PS5 Tempest Engine
- DOES provide real 3D audio simulation of our ears (sounds direction, locality, presence, PSVR)
- DOES NOT provide room reflections, reverb (indoor, outdoor, caves, etc)
- DOES provide computational room for developers to use on audio

Sure developers can use Tempest Engine resources for reverb, that's not the point, though. The topic of this debate was about differences between the Tempest Engine (HRTF) and Project Acoustics (Acoustic room simulation). In the context of that topic, the Tempest Engine does not deliver room and reverb simulation. But again, yes resources can be used to do calculations on reverb filters. And yes, raytracing hardware can be used for simulation (but this is not part of the Tempest Engine... hence my point).

i don't get it how can you compare HRTF and Project Acoustics totaly 2 different things one simulates ears other acoustics.
it's not like project acoustics doesn't require computation for reverbs fx it just provides 3d map for convolution reverb but you still have to apply reverb on these maps and that requires DSP processing power would be some magic if i could use convolution reverb in my DAW without taxing my cpu same applies to consoles.

 

[Zoro7]

Just replied to him.

Don’t play with people’s hopes man. There’s no need. Even though we all know you’re talking nonsense, there’s still a part of us that hopes. Don’t do this.

 

[saintjules]

Comment disappeared? I see Reddit already caught the screenshot lol

 

[Mod of War]

Just replied to him.

Comment disappeared? I see Reddit already caught the screenshot lol

 

[Fun Fanboy]

Hey people, just wanna y’all here about next-gen console and things like that, do you guys think Xbox Series X will be revealed in June 2020 or May?

Just wanna have some talks and fun.

I believe it's Console in May and games in June.