Geki-D
Banned
In game she isn't made to look like she's caked in makeup. The chin is the same. If a game came out where a character had a chin like the one in that pic, you guys would lose your minds.
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When will female video game characters go back to resembling females?
- Thread starter kiphalfton
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DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
What evidence do you have that "gaming has almost always been trying to appease a pretty specific group"? Even in the heyday of 90s radical teenage-boy advertising, tens of millions of women were playing videogames and at the arcades.
The argument isn't that it would be a "bad thing".
I find it interesting how you implicitly state that "more variety" can only be drawn in when they are portrayed on the screen. Bigotry of soft expectations.
It's amusing to see the same ol' argument repeated by two different people with different wording but the same underlying assumptions.
The videogame market is fundamentally an entertainment medium. It is already reaching out to the demographics you are citing. Are you claiming that videogames haven't sold to men, women, boys, girls, and people of all sexual orientations and skincolors since they were invented?
What aspects of Pac Man prevented women from playing it, and therefore was NAMCO right to pander with Mrs Pac Man? What aspects of Sonic prevent a vagina-wielding college student from picking up a Genesis controller and enjoying the game?
The underlying assumption here is that [underrepresented group] is somehow unable to enjoy the medium unless the medium -- as a whole -- exceeds a certain minimum % of representation. And in what way is this not corporate tokenism anyway? Does a black person need to see a black NPC in order to pick up Puyo Puyo and fall in love with its simplicity? Does a gay woman need to see a lesbian protagonist in order to finally dive into Minecraft and spend 100s of hours in it?
A person with [skincolor] skin should be able to play whatever games are available without being pandered to based on their immutable traits.
Heck, in the name of "inclusion", why not just make more of the videogames that women, minorities, etc play? We have hard data on how women play a lot more puzzle games, MMOs, and simulation genre games compared to fighting games and online shooters. If the goal is to "include" more races and genders and sexual orientations, can we skip the pandering and just make more of the games in the genres they enjoy? Then you're treating them like real people with real tastes and preferences.
Instead of this sensible idea, some devs have been holding up caricatures on popsical sticks and going "I'm gay like you. I'm a hero. Buy this game" and patting themselves on the back. Not only patting themselves on the back, but shrieking at anyone who interrupts their virtue signaling.
That's why this political stuff gets annoying. it's not SJWs versus GamerGate, it's SJWs versus Average Consumer Who Just Wants To Enjoy Escapism.
I don't assume that the negative response to political intrusion is fundamentally due to someone being against those political stances.
If someone doesn't like anti-capitalist messaging in their videogame, it doesn't imply they are pro-capitalist. It doesn't imply they even have a strong opinion. It is entirely possible they simply do not like that kind of messaging in their videogame. People are annoyed by ads, too.
And if someone loves something in their videogames, it doesn't mean they can be lumped into broad categories, allowing other conclusions to be drawn about their character or personality. Loving anime tiddies doesn't make one a Trump detractor, for instance.
If someone loves anti-capitalist messaging in their videogames, it doesn't mean they are communists or an SJW or an alt-right troll. Loving anime tiddies doesn't make one a Trump supporter, for instance.
I think most people are generally annoyed by preaching in their entertainment. It is a complaint that transcends videogames and applies to other mediums as well, so it's not just "boys club behavior trying to keep strong empowered women out of the videogame market" or whatever. Some people don't even consider "representation" to be an important factor when picking a game. Why can't entertainment include pandering and fanservice and sarcasm and self-deprecation alongside the serious moralizing and scolding? There's freedom for all kinds of stories but certain groups think certain things should be omitted from games.
It would be like censoring the written word because holy books were written using that same medium.
"Sorry but the DaVinci Code can't be published in the USA. Books are the medium that the Bible uses, you know that right? I'll let you off this time because I noticed you included at least 10 positive messages about PoC (Persons of Christianity) and referenced at least 5 different denominations."
That's because Jesse isn't wearing makeup and lit by a key light with a beauty dish. I would disagree with anyone calling her ugly, but hooray for opinions!
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
This is a fake misogynist picture, females didn't wear such stuff it's unrealistic.Aloy is clearly inspired by Artemis, greek Goddess of the Hunt.
If you think that she is ugly.... well, that's your own personal taste. She is really pretty in many beauty standards around the world.
BacklashWave534
Member
Agreed!
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
Spot on.Is there any aspect of life where people prefer something to be uglier? Like, please no, that’s too pretty for my taste, do you perhaps have uglier model of that?
So, if we are controlling certain character for dozens of hours like we are in many of these games, what’s so strange wanting for them to look good? Same goes for male characters, I don’t wanna play as some ugly, half-bald, fat dude. I just don’t.
But, luckily, pretty much all guys consistently look great throughout decades. Pretty or gritty but masculine. Nathan Drake, Leon Kennedy, Chris Redfield, Geralt, Joel, Arthur Morgan etc.
As a heterosexual male, I’m more inclined to buy game where female characters are more attractive, especially in the age of photorealistic graphics. People like to be around good looking people in real life too. It’s human nature. These are not muddy sprites anymore. You control these people, it’s not like you’re watching a movie. You are being put into their skin.
And what irks me the most is when they make very attractive model (because they are using motion capture for everything these days) uglier in game, intentionally or through lack of skill. But every fucking time, like a clockwork. Then, don’t use models at all, it’s disrespectful to them. Make your own character how you see fit.
Can’t wait to see who was model for Abby. Boy, is that gonna be hilarious
I mean, the artist’s skill notwithstanding, there’s hardly been an era when people asked for realism in artistic representation before the advent of photography. And even when photography really started to rival portraits, people quickly started to shop photos to make things prettier than they actually were.
Julius Caesar was notoriously bald, even if he did everything in his power to hide that. There’s basically no portrait of Caesar that represents his hair faithfully.
Likewise, even if Jesus‘s real likelihood probably looked like the guy on the left here, no Christian is going to hang that mug on their wall and will always go for the white Brad Pitt-like guy on the right:
There’s no fictional representation that isn’t influenced by the taste and the intention of the artists, and by the audience’s expectations if the artists cares about that. Renaissance artists always painted any subject, from any era, in 16th-century robes, ”realism” and “representation“ be damned.
So while there may not always be an agenda behind that, it’s hard to deny that something happened in the last few years that tipped the scales from busty, perfectly chiseled, scantily clad female characters to more “realistic” (?), muscly, short-haired, flatter-chested, flat-ass female characters in a certain group of video games. So if this happened in the name of “representation”, the questions arises: representation of whom, and for whom? Who asked for this, and what goal is to be achieved by doing this?
Variety is good, but let’s stop pretending that there isn’t a trend here, and that there aren’t people who start screaming the moment an exception to that trend is shown in early images of any game that wants to make it big.
While of course the demographic of gamers is varied, the majority is still male. And isn't this what the whole thread is about? That men (assuming) are complaining that female character design isn't lining up with their perception or ideals of what that character should be?
You're listing loads of games that can be enjoyed by all as proof that games can be enjoyed by all. Agreed, as the characters you play are abstract (as I said in my previous post). I think that when it comes to portrayal of more human characters that you see a divide of demographic. You say yourself that for example that females avoid certain genres, could that not because of what those games currently are or the culture that surrounds them? That's why I don't see diversity as pandering or anything political for the most part. As long as it fits within the artistic intent, it's just filling a gap in the medium and cultural canvas. At the end of the day we get more varied experiences and stories that allows for greater escapism
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
Is this the new "knees too sharp, wouldn't bang" meme?
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GreenAlien
Member
He is a male in uniform, even wears a tie. That's classic sexualization of men.
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Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
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DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
According to what? I thought the split was about 50/50.
Why are you asking me? I'm not standing up for the thread or even agreeing with it. I'm having a conversation with you.
But the same argument would have to hold for males, if we took this leap of logic. There are genres that males avoid. Could that not be because of what the game currently are or the culture that surrounds them? If puzzle games are predominantly played by women, where are the efforts to correct this imbalance by attracting more men? The same could go for any medium that leans to the female or male side, in terms of demographics.
Some people are knee-jerking and assuming diversity means pandering. I don't think one means the other. But it's okay for someone to not want something in their game, isn't it? Why does it even have to be a moral issue? This is entertainment. This is consumerism. It's remarkable that it's even taken seriously as a topic.
Sure, the artist should be free to include the desired content for any reason. Critics are free to criticize the artistic intent behind their inclusions. This goes both ways.
The part that bothers me is when ideologues and mobs turn their criticism into a weapon, effectively removing and censoring the content. Then "artistic intent" no longer exists, because the artist must fear the backlash of tackling a topic protected by an outspoken interest group.
Christian mommies trying to get Mortal Kombat censored in the 90s. Feminists trying to get large-chested women out of an entertainment hobby.
As Mrs. Potts said, "Tale as old as time..."
GreenAlien
Member
..and some people have the gall to complain about bikini armor...Bart agrees with you:
dwr
Member
Aloy is clearly inspired by Artemis, greek Goddess of the Hunt.
If you think that she is ugly.... well, that's your own personal taste. She is really pretty in many beauty standards around the world.
Ironically Artemis here is wearing a dress that would be considered very fanservicey by today's standards, possibly semi-transparent, in a pose reminiscent of the infamous Boobs-and-Butt.
Oh and she has a very feminine figure.
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Aion002
Member
Well... Artists at any period have to make money.
Don't worry.
Brazil will keep "promoting" bikini "armors".
manfestival
Member
Must buy this game now
Cactuarman
Banned
I don't know OP, look at this small-breasted basic-looking trash-pile from 2004. The beginning of the end maybe...
(/s)
It's totally cool with me if you preferred a character like Rayne, but I actually found Alex way hotter. To be fair, I was a fan of both.
I don't really know what I'm supposed to take away from this thread other than the fact that I guess I shouldn't have found Aloy attractive. My bad. And that the existence of a character that I don't find attractive should upset me?
It always seems like there is a kernel of an interesting discussion that we could be having. But these threads always go the exact same way and use the same examples over and over.
In the interest of balance, here's a character from a western dev (well, more than one) that I think you'd say "evolved".
Edit: typo
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According to what? I thought the split was about 50/50.
Well the split seems to be around that (55-45) but the main difference is in how many see themselves as "gamers" (15% vs 6%), the vocal minority.
But the same argument would have to hold for males, if we took this leap of logic. There are genres that males avoid. Could that not be because of what the game currently are or the culture that surrounds them? If puzzle games are predominantly played by women, where are the efforts to correct this imbalance by attracting more men? The same could go for any medium that leans to the female or male side, in terms of demographics.
Not sure about that. Just because females supposedly tend to veer towards certain genres does not mean males avoid them. Puzzles games are again inherently abstract and so doesn't rely on character appearance, gender etc. If a developer would like to make a puzzle game catered to men that could be interesting to see how that that can be achieved.
Some people are knee-jerking and assuming diversity means pandering. I don't think one means the other. But it's okay for someone to not want something in their game, isn't it? Why does it even have to be a moral issue? This is entertainment. This is consumerism. It's remarkable that it's even taken seriously as a topic.
You could also flip this argument on its head. Why should the consumer have any say in what a designer chooses to create? Instead of making demands on what I'd want in a game, I'm much more interested in experiencing the artistic vision of the creator and have their choices challenge my perceptions about things.
Sure, the artist should be free to include the desired content for any reason. Critics are free to criticize the artistic intent behind their inclusions. This goes both ways.
The part that bothers me is when ideologues and mobs turn their criticism into a weapon, effectively removing and censoring the content. Then "artistic intent" no longer exists, because the artist must fear the backlash of tackling a topic protected by an outspoken interest group.
Christian mommies trying to get Mortal Kombat censored in the 90s. Feminists trying to get large-chested women out of an entertainment hobby.
As Mrs. Potts said, "Tale as old as time..."
I think we can agree on this
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I feel like you guys are just over-reacting to a few games.
There are more women in games in general too; so it's kind of silly to expect the same level of T&A or even "prettiness" out of every one.
There are more women in games in general too; so it's kind of silly to expect the same level of T&A or even "prettiness" out of every one.
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-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Amazing game. Wish you could have more realized romances with the robots. And that they'd also let you make your own androids, or at least pick models.No game has done female character models better than Detroit in my opinion. Probably because they are extremely accurate to the real life actresses and they were incredibly well modeled and animated.
/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/60042087/chloe.0.jpg)
DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
Formatting got a bit jacked up but I wanted to respond to this part.
The consumer pays the money, that's why. I don't believe in a theoretical "artistic vision" that is divorced from reality, including the money used to create the product. I don't think one should win over the other, I'm just acknowledging that the tug of war exists.
if you want to experience what the artist envisions, you are prevented from doing so if the culture or gatekeepers censor that piece of entertainment. So instead you get to experience what a select group of artists envision. That tends to slide into propaganda.
Arun1910
Member
I haven't read through this thread but knowing this thread is about Women and you mentioned a Chin, I'm guessing you are talking about Jessie in Control.
aclar00
Member
But theyre are also living in environments that are harsh, and require good physical conditioning (eg running from robots and zombies). Number 1 rule to surving an apocalypse (according to zombieland) is cardio.
I dont see either of those two characters as buff. Both are thin, with little body fat (which also may play into buss size) which may be indicative to the realities you mentioned, especially if HZD which, if im not mistaken. takes place hundreds, if not thousands of years into the future...Surely, the gene pool has evolved to survive the environment. Jell if anything, Aloy should probably have bad skin added for being in the sun too damn long.
Lethal01
Member
What? They make a point to show that people get raped and ellie was lucky to avoid it. It would be very unrealistic if there was a woman being raped around every corner. The women we encounter in the first game were in relatively safe zones where that kind of behavior would get them killed. Feels like you are pretty out of touch with both the games story and with reality.
NeoGiffer
Member
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
In my opinion we like what they make not because they make what we want. I'm sure most people didn't ask for game like Sekiro from FROM but we end up liking it because we liked what they made.
Sure we pay for the games but we also choose what games to pay, in my opinion developers shouldn't make game to just to please people.
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Makariel
Member
Or maybe (more likely) it's just how people dressed in ancient Greece?
What she's wearing on that picture you quoted looks like a regular tunic to me.The History of Clothing said:
And if you want some fan-service:
Look at them man-boobs!
Just like Aloy, who - according to someone in this thread - looks like a man.
keram
Member
Not enough skin showing mate.
There we go, she's ready to go into combat now!
Without a gun or a knife ?! Mhhhh ... not sure whether this will end well.
aclar00
Member
Pretty sure there are quite a few documentaries of many of them lacking confidence in their own self image. So much so that they vomit on purpose and denied themselves food...but hey, if the 5 min on stage is how you picture their confidence...
V2Tommy
Member
Atelier Thighza.
Lethal01
Member
If things got "balanced" then you would get less waifus since things are still very skewed to the majority of characters looking attractive.
Leave it how it is.
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DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
I don't view it as one or another.
A dev can make a game about any ideology and make any design decisions they want to make, just like the audience can complain about any design decision made, no matter how fickle. This is a built-in "quality" adjustment in every entertainment medium.
Maybe the groups who insist they're being "excluded" are just being fickle customers by refusing to try the hundreds of thousands of available videogames and demanding that the market cater to specific metrics of "representation"? And the complaints are leveraged even for games that the complainer has no intention of purchasing.
I kinda draw the line at complaining about a product that you're not buying. It has nothing to do with videogames or my politics failing to line up with theirs. It's about whiny brats demanding something out of a medium when they've contributed so little to it.
I also think there's a difference between demanding something from the industry (resulting in work and money spent for someone else) and simply rejecting a product that the industry is offering.
Rejecting TLOU2 for its themes isn't much different than rejecting Dance Dance Revolution because you don't like the track-list, or rejecting Call of Duty because you don't enjoy the lack of single-player campaign. There's no moral weight either way. Folks have turned this into a moral issue but I don't believe in "moral consumerism".
Even though I disagree with the OP's premise, voicing their opinion and choosing not to buy the games they don't like is the way to go. That's not really profound. Don't buy the games you don't like. Easy.
The problem arises when people get wrapped up in franchises and multi-title plotlines so they feel like they're missing out on the New Hotness or the Surprise Reveal if they don't play it.
You could dislike how the protagonist looks and refuse to buy the game on those grounds alone. As long as one doesn't try to pass that decision off as some kind of Universal Gamer Wisdom* then it's okay to pass on any game for any reason, just like I think it's okay for a dev to make any game about any topic.
*That's kinda what fanboyism is. The hobbyist falls in love with certain games and brands and cannot comprehend how a stranger over the internet wouldn't also like the exact same things.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Dude it's not the greatest modeling work in the world, but as long as you dont' do a close-up under her too-wide jaw it's not anywhere near as bad as people claim.
vs.
You spend the actual game looking at her ass anyways lol
It's really just not great modeling work.... like Fallout or other games the hair doesn't quite look like it's fitting on her head correctly... like it's bolted on, so from some angles she just looks awful.
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aclar00
Member
I dont think anyone has...
S
Steve.1981
Unconfirmed Member
I recently played Enslaved: Odyssey to the West. Here's the main characters,
As you can see, the devs carefully provided some eye candy for everyone. Why can't we still do it like in those simpler times
As you can see, the devs carefully provided some eye candy for everyone. Why can't we still do it like in those simpler times
Bryank75
Banned
I'm playing FFXV and I think Iris is fantastic.... of course I am just after FFVII remake and we were spoiled for choice in that, 3 absolute crackers of girls! (digital or not)
aclar00
Member
So what youre saying is that prior to the current "trend" VG companies were in fact selling us propaganda of the 'beautiful' men and women?
S
Steve.1981
Unconfirmed Member
Beth from Quantum break,
Jesse from Control,
Same actress. Courtney Hope. For me, she definitely looks more feminine (& better) in Quantum Break. Bad modelling work for Control, the newer game? More flattering haircut on Beth? Or deliberately making Jesse's face harsher & more masculine for some reason? I don't know, but there it is.
Jesse from Control,
Same actress. Courtney Hope. For me, she definitely looks more feminine (& better) in Quantum Break. Bad modelling work for Control, the newer game? More flattering haircut on Beth? Or deliberately making Jesse's face harsher & more masculine for some reason? I don't know, but there it is.
HAL-01
Member
Jesus Christ man
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
It's worse modeling work for sure.. I mean... look at it, or any other face in Control. There are less details than what they did for Quantum Break for whatever reason...Beth from Quantum break,
Jesse from Control,
Same actress. Courtney Hope. For me, she definitely looks more feminine (& better) in Quantum Break. Bad modelling work for Control, the newer game? More flattering haircut on Beth? Or deliberately making Jesse's face harsher & more masculine for some reason? I don't know, but there it is.
Everything in Control kinda looks like it comes from a "character creator", QB has outright better modeling. She looks like she's wearing a wig.. as do some of the other characters in the game.
They also maybe tweaked her look a little bit... neither character looks exactly like the actual model.
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DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
Not really, no. I'm pointing out that propaganda constantly creeps into entertainment mediums. We have all sorts of examples of this from the past 100 years. It's not a stretch that ideology and propaganda would also creep into videogames.
As far as I know, there's no group that entered the videogame market and began insisting on their ideology of "beautiful men and women". It seems instead that videogame artists produced art with attractive men and women that the viewer would aspire to. This has been a part of human art for 1000s of years, so it should be no surprise to see beautiful men and women show up in an entertainment medium.
The burden of proof really lies on those who claim we need "realistic" depictions of certain groups, and with those who claim we need "diverse" depictions of certain groups. If this was true, why? What is the moral imperative? I can argue for diversity from an aesthetic perspective i.e. games would look boring if it was only burly white males. But I say that strictly from the selfish perspective of the audience-member. I see no moral reason why x% of such-and-such immutable traits should be represented in the game. If the dev feels that's important, cool, go for it. If the dev feels that's really really important, cool, go for it, but you're kinda losing me as a customer with your priorities so far out of whack with my own.
iconmaster
Banned
He-Man was one thing, but I directly blame Skeletor for my eating disorder.
Do you know how hard it is to only starve your face?
lock2k
Banned
S
Steve.1981
Unconfirmed Member
I don't know. Hopefully you are right. All I know for sure is that it really stood out for me.
MR ARCADE FOREVER
Member
1- Leave purist America
2-Move to Japan
3-Hope ResetEra relocates to another planet
2-Move to Japan
3-Hope ResetEra relocates to another planet