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[Kusarigama]

Have we already seen XSX IO capabilities in the quick resume tech demo they showcased ?

All games have a consistent 5-6 seconds load time between switches. They flush out 13.5GB RAM between the switches.

If my amateur speculation is correct, it takes 5-6 seconds to fill up 13.5GB RAM. This is 2.25 GB/s to 2.7 GB/s of transfer speeds and does not depend on type of game.

But the games they used to demonstrate quick resume were XB1 games which as far as I know used only about 6GB of RAM or on XB1X they might have used 9GB. And in quick resume the system is dumping(writing) the memory of 1 game and reading(loading) another game's dumped memory, which also should be taken in to consideration. So you might need to recalculate those numbers.

 

[Shmunter]

Yes.

Minecraft? Maybe you're just not playing the games that would make this obvious. Minecraft is a procedurally generated game with a simple structure that avoids extreme use of memory. Thats why it runs on everything everywhere. I'm a big fan of procedural generation - but most AAA games aren't like that.

Any persistent world game of decent scale - open world games like RDR or highly persistent RPGs - have game state data beyond what is in system RAM. If "instant suspend/resume" of games is going to happen, the RAM and all that supporting data must be stored at the moment the suspend option is selected. If this isn't done, the resume is not a real resume - it's just loading a savegame with the player back at whatever checkpoint they were at with a canned game state.

But any runtime data committed to storage already can just stay where it is. Only ram being volatile should need dumping for suspension. I appreciate proper management by the system needs to be in place. But the feature is coming so seemingly it’s a done deal.

I would hope there are even further smarts in place where the system differentiates between a game’s working ram and it’s assets, so as to not bother needlessly dumping assets as they can be readily retrieved from the game install upon resume.

I.e dump a small footprint from ram as the runtime state and only include pointers to static assets, not the actual assets if you catch my drift.

 

[Radical_3d]

What are you gonna reveal at page 4.000?

NSFW.

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

	PS5 IO	XSX IO
Flash Controller	12 Lanes - Six levels of priority. Make - Rumoured to be Marvel. Link	4 Lanes - Two levels of priority. Make - Rumoured to be Phison. Link
Decompression	Bespoke Hardware. 9 Zen2 CPU Cores	Bespoke Hardware. 3 Zen2 CPU Cores
Coherency	Bespoke Hardware. Assits IO Co-processors and GPU Cache Scrubbers. Housekeeper of sorts.	Unspecified - 1
Mapping	Bespoke Hardware. One IO Co-processor with shared SRAM	10% of 1 Zen2 CPU Core used. May have possible DRAM
File IO	Bespoke Hardware. One IO Co-processor with shared SRAM	The above helps in this too
Check In & Load Management	Bespoke Hardware. DMA Controller worth 2 Zen2 CPU core	Unspecified - 2
GPU Cache Scrubbers	Bespoke Hardware. Evicts portions of cache instead of entire cache, more protected to GPU stalls	Unspecified - 3

Some questions on unspecified:

1. Is CPU processing utilized to make the process more coherent ?
2. Will it utilize CPU core if its not dedicated hardware ?
3. If none, it invalidates the entire cache before filling it with new data, more susceptible to GPU stalls. Increases Latency.

Sony really needs to do a showcase of how a game can take advantage of that hardware, I think we need to see it in action to fully understand its full potential.

 

[geordiemp]

But any runtime data committed to storage already can just stay where it is. Only ram being volatile should need dumping for suspension. I appreciate proper management by the system needs to be in place. But the feature is coming so seemingly it’s a done deal.

I would hope there are even further smarts in place where the system differentiates between a game’s working ram and it’s assets, so as to not bother needlessly dumping assets as they can be readily retrieved from the game install upon resume.

I.e dump a small footprint from ram as the runtime state and only include pointers to static assets, not the actual assets if you catch my drift.

Not good for SSD life to be constanly writing large data, that applies to both console so we wait and see the OS memory solutions.

Hopefully Ps5 is fast enough it does not need suspend resume, just loads the game in udner a second anyway.

We dont have all the details to discuss this properly.

Sony really needs to do a showcase of how a game can take advantage of that hardware, I think we need to see it in action to fully understand its full potential.

They have, its called UE5 demo, with every forum going crazy about SSDs unless you been living under a rock.

Best console graphics quality shown to date on any system hands down.

 

[ToadMan]

But any runtime data committed to storage already can just stay where it is. Only ram being volatile should need dumping for suspension. I appreciate proper management by the system needs to be in place. But the feature is coming so seemingly it’s a done deal.

I would hope there are even further smarts in place where the system differentiates between a game’s working ram and it’s assets, so as to not bother needlessly dumping assets as they can be readily retrieved from the game install upon resume.

I.e dump a small footprint from ram as the runtime state and only include pointers to static assets, not the actual assets if you catch my drift.

Yes that's right - the original reason for this conversation was the assertion that games didn't store any game state data in secondary storage - HDD before, SSD in future - it was all in RAM. That's what led us here.

Quite right - whatever data has found its way onto the SSD will just persist there.

 

[Shmunter]

Not good for SSD life to be constanly writing large data, that applies to both console so we wait and see the OS memory solutions.

Hopefully Ps5 is fast enough it does not need suspend resume, just loads the game in udner a second anyway.

We dont have all the details to discuss this properly.



They have, its called UE5 demo, with every forum going crazy about SSDs unless you been living under a rock.

Best console graphics quality shown to date on any system hands down.

Loading a game back to the title screen is different to coming back to a game as if you paused it, which is a good feature. But yes, minimising unnecessary writes is desirable.

 

[quest]

Not good for SSD life to be constanly writing large data, that applies to both console so we wait and see the OS memory solutions.

Hopefully Ps5 is fast enough it does not need suspend resume, just loads the game in udner a second anyway.

We dont have all the details to discuss this properly.



They have, its called UE5 demo, with every forum going crazy about SSDs unless you been living under a rock.

Best console graphics quality shown to date on any system hands down.

It is about convenience 2 or 3 clicks to switch a game and pick up where you were Versus saving quitting to home screen finding your next game then your game save. It is a good idea Sony should have no matter how fast the SSD is.

 

[geordiemp]

Loading a game back to the title screen is different to coming back to a game as if you paused it, which is a good feature. But yes, minimising unnecessary writes is desirable.

Especially given both SSD are integrated / built in as a starter so not easy to repair.

It is about convenience 2 or 3 clicks to switch a game and pick up where you were Versus saving quitting to home screen finding your next game then your game save. It is a good idea Sony should have no matter how fast the SSD is.

Dont want to be wring too often to a built in SSD, should be minimised for both consoles for life. SSD are not RAM.

I would expect to be only writing to SSD when bring in a new game to play, not at each mini break of gameplay.

 

[TLZ]

 

[Radical_3d]

Especially given both SSD are integrated / built in as a starter so not easy to repair.



Dont want to be wring too often to a built in SSD, should be minimised for both consoles for life. SSD are not RAM.

I would expect to be only writing to SSD when bring in a new game to play, not at each mini break of gameplay.

I said that about the all-time video recording feature and they call me crazy. Who’s crazy now?

 

[geordiemp]

I said that about the all-time video recording feature and they call me crazy. Who’s crazy now?

Its not crazy, hopefully both systems have some memory like Ps4Pro for OS and stuff not the 16 GB and certainly not the SSD..

We will have to wait and see, SSD have made progress through the years in life, but still dont want to be writing all the time, thats silly, we will be all buying pros in 3 years

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Got excited for a second there...

 

[pawel86ck]

Have we already seen XSX IO capabilities in the quick resume tech demo they showcased ?

All games have a consistent 5-6 seconds load time between switches. They flush out 13.5GB RAM between the switches.

If my amateur speculation is correct, it takes 5-6 seconds to fill up 13.5GB RAM. This is 2.25 GB/s to 2.7 GB/s of transfer speeds and does not depend on type of game.

Xbox x enhanced patches DL automatically, so I'm assuming these must be X enhanced games build to use 9.5 GB instead of 5.5 GB. With around 4-5 seconds loading times it corresponds very well with 2.4 GB/s SSD speed. That's very impressive and I havent seen such fast loading times on PC.

But quick resume is the perfect scenario, and based on other videos we know initial loading times in BC games can be much longer. Game has to be build with XSX in mind in order to use I/O potential fully. If HW decompression will work perfectly (4.8 GB/s) it should take around 3 seconds to fill 13.5 GB.

 

[sircaw]

I am 53 years old and have been retired for almost 20 years now.

Life has been very kind to me and I am quite a happy person so people on a forum have to go the extra mile to piss me off

Your blue sky crystal meth was of sub standard quality.
Have a good day

 

[FranXico]

Got excited for a second there...

 

[Moses85]

Sony is playing with everybody

 

[Radical_3d]

Sony is playing with everybody

I think they are testing how many months they can get away with it before people starts jumping off in despair over quarantine and no PS5 news. I have the window open.

 

[sircaw]

Sony is playing with everybody

Imagine if your back at Microsoft HQ, they must be like for the love of God can you show us something Damn you.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Pretty much.

Actually noticed the new "Sony SSD speed is overkill" narrative popping up recently. Maybe it's the new script

PS5 SSD is the fastest storage medium and IO out there today?

Maybe it's more fast than they actually need, wasted speed, and a gimmick!

 

[saintjules]

Got excited for a second there...

Edit: Thought it was something else lol.

 

[Corndog]

There's no difference in what you describe here and putting dynamic game state on the SSD - in fact this was even done with HDDs for decades now.

Take an open world game - the game state includes changes to the "base" world well outside of the player's current view or interaction range. That stuff isn't held in RAM - there just isn't enough memory to waste on data you can be certain won't be used within the access time of the secondary storage. Yes when games are fast switched 13Gb of data are dumped - but 13Gbs is not the total dynamic game state except for simple games.

I will agree that some non active state data could be saved to disk either in a save file or a temp state file of some sort. None of this has any bearing on game swapping by mirroring ram to disk, including cpu and probably gpu state. That is my only point.

 

[Faithless83]

Got excited for a second there...

YEAHHH (Then read the full post)

 

[Corndog]

But any runtime data committed to storage already can just stay where it is. Only ram being volatile should need dumping for suspension. I appreciate proper management by the system needs to be in place. But the feature is coming so seemingly it’s a done deal.

I would hope there are even further smarts in place where the system differentiates between a game’s working ram and it’s assets, so as to not bother needlessly dumping assets as they can be readily retrieved from the game install upon resume.

I.e dump a small footprint from ram as the runtime state and only include pointers to static assets, not the actual assets if you catch my drift.

Not saving game assets is probably possible but would require so work for each game to differentiate state data from assets.

 

[Self High Five]

 

[Shmunter]

Not saving game assets is probably possible but would require so work for each game to differentiate state data from assets.

Yeah I agree, dumping even 16 gig is simple and fast enough.

 

[Audiophile]

I think the PS5 is finally strong enough to bring back the glory that was M.A.G.

256 player battles well before the current battle royales became a thing.

If they did, I'd hope they have the balls to call it massive action game this time. They dropped the moniker last time round.

 

[Magic Carpet]

I wonder if it might be possible to cheat you way through a game using the resume function. Platforming and realize your missed the jump, hit pause, switch games, return to game a frame before your mistake.

 

[Gamernyc78]

Walks in oh lawdddd we still on the UE5 demo convo??? Damn tht ruffled alot of feathers.

 

[Shmunter]

Walks in oh lawdddd we still on the UE5 demo convo??? Damn tht ruffled alot of feathers.

Not for the last few pages, but thanks for kicking it off again, lol

 

[saintjules]

YEAHHH (Then read the full post)

For more emotion

 

[magnumpy]

 

[TLZ]

Got excited for a second there...

 

[44alltheway]

Days of Play sales this year are pretty underwhelming

 

[DaGwaphics]

Xbox x enhanced patches DL automatically, so I'm assuming these must be X enhanced games build to use 9.5 GB instead of 5.5 GB. With around 4-5 seconds loading times it corresponds very well with 2.4 GB/s SSD speed. That's very impressive and I havent seen such fast loading times on PC.

But quick resume is the perfect scenario, and based on other videos we know initial loading times in BC games can be much longer. Game has to be build with XSX in mind in order to use I/O potential fully. If HW decompression will work perfectly (4.8 GB/s) it should take around 3 seconds to fill 13.5 GB.

Not really a way to work up numbers here. The OS wouldn't be part of the ram dump, IMO. This brings some other things into the equation, the system needs to setup the hyperV for the specific console being played (Xbox OG, X360, 1X, or XSX), then there are issues where SSDs don't perform quite as fast during simultaneous read & write operations (which would be happening in the transition between software).

 

[MasterCornholio]

Sony really needs to do a showcase of how a game can take advantage of that hardware, I think we need to see it in action to fully understand its full potential.

I agree there's alot more hardware in that system than I thought there would be.

Really curious to see.done sort of demo that explains how it all works.

 

[Goncas2]

Xbox x enhanced patches DL automatically, so I'm assuming these must be X enhanced games build to use 9.5 GB instead of 5.5 GB. With around 4-5 seconds loading times it corresponds very well with 2.4 GB/s SSD speed. That's very impressive and I havent seen such fast loading times on PC.

But quick resume is the perfect scenario, and based on other videos we know initial loading times in BC games can be much longer. Game has to be build with XSX in mind in order to use I/O potential fully. If HW decompression will work perfectly (4.8 GB/s) it should take around 3 seconds to fill 13.5 GB.

XSX would need dedicated HW compression to reach 4.8GB, because the game state would need to be compressed beforehand, so that it is then decompressed at 4.8GB/s. And even if it had a compression chip, or if it was done on the CPU, I doubt BCPack would even work for game states, so the compression ratio (and decompression speed) would be lower.

And that's just the part of loading a game from the SSD into memory. What about saving the game state from memory to the SSD? Can the XSX reach 2.4GB/s writes? Can a compression chip, or the CPU, compress the data at the full 2.4GB/s input?

My guess: they should use some kind of simple compression algorithm that can run on the CPU at full speed when compressing and decompressing game states. It won't reach 4.8GB/s, but probably around 3~3.5GB/s. With those numbers, switching between two XSX-optimized games should take around 7 to 9 seconds.

 

[Corndog]

I agree there's alot more hardware in that system than I thought there would be.

Really curious to see.done sort of demo that explains how it all works.

I think it would be better to just show games. The average consumer is not going to understand all these intricacies.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I think it would be better to just show games. The average consumer is not going to understand all these intricacies.

That's what Digital Foundry is for.

 

[Metroiddarks]

What do you guys think is the most bullshit marketing phrase you have heard so far for next gen?

I have two.

1, "No load times" from both Sony and MS. I think that's just wild and I can already see the future back peddling.

2, "Suspend/resume mutliple games at a time" by MS. I can see it happening for two games early on but as games get more complex in a few years I don't think it will be possible for more than 2 games at a time.

Well regarding your points for the first I think many of the games will have a loading so fast than you can hidden in any animation so I see possible
more in one machine than another but you got my point and second I think if the game doesn't need many memory yeah looks totally feasible but when
the games are using dozens of GB of the SSD will be not worth it destinate so much of your SSD memory only for be able to do it.

For me will be:

1.-Velocity Architecture: for a couple reason I don't care if the name sounds cool in the end will get older first than the PS5 for the "normal" raw bandwidth and all its
solutions are actually existing in Xbox One but now do it by hardware or include a couple of extra new features (BCPack, SF).

2.- 16 GB/s and its bandwidth for both consoles are enough, yes I know SSD relax the requirements of more memory but for how many time, I am sure in maybe 4 or 5 years
we are going to hear some big studios say why 16 is just not enough at that bandwidth is becoming harder to manage with the pass of the years.

3.- 4k 60 fps in all games ..... that is not gonna happens for a simple reason a game running to 30 fps looks better than one to 60 and in the end this consoles needs to be out
per years so more of one game will prefer good graphics to more frame rate because in the end more probably to get the attention of a normal person with graphics than
with Framerate.

 

[DeepEnigma]

That's what Digital Foundry is for.

Even they don't understand all of it and read off of a provided script. Especially when you have people like Alex in the forefront.

It's what RedGamingTech and others are for.

 

[Killer Sakoman]

Ok at least it wasn't something like brain damage from boxing. That's something that would really mess you up.

Dealer and Timdog got brain damage from xboxing

 

[husomc]

Is Sony going to announce something when we hit page 2000 ?

 

[Crimson_Fate]

2, "Suspend/resume mutliple games at a time" by MS. I can see it happening for two games early on but as games get more complex in a few years I don't think it will be possible for more than 2 games at a time.

I don't see this being a problem. This is not the same as Suspend/resume on a PC where the game is being left in memory, its closer to a hibernate. The game state is saved directly to the SSD so they should be able to support as as much as there is storage space..

 

[MasterCornholio]

Dealer and Timdog got brain damage from xboxing

Oh wait you said from Xboxing.

Kinect it can be hazardous to your health.

LOL

 

[Bo_Hazem]

No such thing as no latency. Low latency is probably what you mean. And everything has bottlenecks.

As far as system I/o the ssd still has less then 2% the bandwidth of system ram. The ssd can access 5.5 GB per second. The ram has a bandwidth of 448 GB per second.

I think for 4K, the RAM could be slightly the bottleneck if you wanna go crazy with 8K assets uncompressed. Overall, I can't see bottlenecks this time around for 4K. But let's see games in action first.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Boy, do we think that Star Citizen might come to the next gen boxes or have they said anything about that? That would be AWESOME!

I'm not too much into Star Citizen, but it sounds like its community is funding it? So it depends if they want it to be on other platforms. Either way I'm already ready for it on my PC, you don't need ray tracing as it won't support it.

 

[44alltheway]

Colt's now sending his army of fanboys out to stop people from calling him out. Does he not understand that people know he obviously didn't read the original article and was peddling something that wasn't true. This guy is like 30-40 years old and is sending his army of teenagers out. it is saaaaad

 

[hemo memo]

Got excited for a second there...

Should we pretend that we didn’t know?

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

They have been putting these books out in a strange order. Book 1, Book 2, Book 6, Book 4