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[Sinthor]

No PS4 advantage was mainly due to the fucked up bandwidth of Xone. 1.8tf and 1.35 tf is not big difference.
Other advantages appears in 1st party games due to ACEs.

It's worth noting that the percentage of processing power difference WAS higher between the PS4 and XBO than the difference between PS5 and XSX. At least by those numbers, I think people really need to tamp down their apparent expectations of wild differences between the two. I mean, time will tell, but as I recall, there was a ~40% difference there and there is far less today. Should be interesting to see when we can do side by side comparisons though, especially in light of the different design philosophies both companies have decided to follow this time. Good times ahead! Although for my part.. I really don't care ONE BIT unless there are substantial and NOTICEABLE differences. I thought the DF comparisons blowing up still frames by 300x to show how a blade of grass was different (or not) at 900p on the XBO versus 1080p on the PS4 were STUPID. If I can't see the difference myself...I don't care. Nobody I know with an Xbox One was unhappy with their machine either as a result of "only" running at 900p or whatever while I decadently luxuriated in FULL 1080p goodness! (/sarcasm OFF). It's just silly and I hope we're not sitting here focusing on such silly comparisons for the NEXT 5 years or so!

 

[ToadMan]

You don’t. You run 1 game at a time just like you do now.
I am going to make some assumptions here. When you quit a game the current contents of ram are saved to ssd. The max ram usage for a game are 13.5 GB. Their are probably other tricks you could do to decrease having to save all the data in ram if you wanted to lesson ssd storage.
when you switch to a new game the current games state is stored and the new one is loaded in from the ssd into ram. They may have some hardware on board to assist with this but who knows. Once new state is loaded it uses the current ram plus the mapped data from the ssd game data files, not the game state info.

Again if you have some programming experience think of it as have an object with current state data as it’s private data variables. This object also has a function that retrieves data from storage as needed.

There's no difference in what you describe here and putting dynamic game state on the SSD - in fact this was even done with HDDs for decades now.

Take an open world game - the game state includes changes to the "base" world well outside of the player's current view or interaction range. That stuff isn't held in RAM - there just isn't enough memory to waste on data you can be certain won't be used within the access time of the secondary storage. Yes when games are fast switched 13Gb of data are dumped - but 13Gbs is not the total dynamic game state except for simple games.

 

[Sinthor]

Being a Sony fan first and foremost I hoped my info was wrong and not only would the PS5 have the superior SSD but have that 13 tfs so many other people kept saying.

Even had a couple of those guys PM here saying how far off I was and I better get on the 13 tf or look like a fool.



Baseball but thats about as much info as you can drag out of me

Oh...my...GAWD!

YOU'RE PETE ROSE!

GUYS, WE HAVE PETE ROSE ON THE FORUM AND MORE THAN THAT...HE'S AN INSIDER!

Just kidding! Glad you had that opportunity though and are at least decently physically healthy still. All competitive athletics demand a price. Even without serious injury, we pay a price for the glories of our youth!

 

[thebigmanjosh]

So the dma just randomly loads whatever it feels like without any request from the cpu? That sounds really plausible. Sure hope the gpu and cpu have some magic way of knowing where this new data is stored.

Technically, yes, the CPU is initiating the process but the whole point of the DMA is to reduce CPU processing and latency by taking on operations after an initial transfer by the CPU or GPU.

It’s not magic unless you give it a fancy name like Velocity Architecture.

 

[FeiRR]

Games don’t contain source code. They are compiled into executables. The executable reads the data.
I don’t know how modern games do copy protection but encrypting them in their entirety seems like overkill

There's little practical use for disassemblers in such applications, but the code contains some information which is plain text, like file paths and links to assets. That's how dataminers figure out that games are going to get DLCs, sometimes find unused characters, levels, weapons... This usually happens on PC but sometimes also on consoles as current gen has been cracked. Like that Bloodborne 60 FPS hack required mingling with the actual code. You wouldn't be able to do anything with encrypted data. I think that nowadays piracy isn't such a big problem on consoles (PC is a different thing) since a lot of games require you to be online anyway. Protection of your assets is probably equally important to publishers.

Yeah I'll take anything at this point. The only thing I'm curious about is how it will come across without a live crowd. I hope it isn't as dry as Road to PS5. As a technical talk that was fine but for a full reveal of a console and games it would be really weird. I guess we have to allow for the current limitations.

In the new normal, we need some ideas for participation in streamed events online. Things like YT/Twitch chat are trash and won't do. If rumours about PS Home return in VR are true, this could be something.

On a side note: I think we (active participants of this thread) should organize a live chat for the event, live comments and reactions, meltdowns, GIFs and all. How about Discord?

I am 53 years old and have been retired for almost 20 years now.

Damn, that gamedev really takes a toll
I'm 10 years less with no prospect of retirement at all. But that was also a choice.

It's 1995, Microsoft launches Windows 95

There was a joke around that time: Hiroshima '45, Chernobyl '86, Windows '95.

 

[Metroiddarks]

Boy, do we think that Star Citizen might come to the next gen boxes or have they said anything about that? That would be AWESOME!

One the promise for the people who gave money was be PC exclusive, so I don't think so.

 

[ToadMan]

Where are these latencies coming from?

I had a conversation with @thicc_girls_are_teh_best about this and it doesn't seem to be an issue in the XSX.

I would like to hear your side of this.

I don't have much of an opinion at the moment on total throughput. Developers will workaround any bottlenecks anyway.

The post I was making was just about comparing latency - latency is the time it takes for a processor to request data and that data arriving - it's a specific definition.

The PS5 SSD has half the latency of the xsex. At that point the discussion and comparison about SSD latency ends. Its like saying xsex has 12.1tflops vs PS5 10.3tflops. The numbers speak for themselves at that point - if thats what one wishes to compare, then there's nothing else to discuss.


The discussion about compression/decompression isn't a latency matter any more - that might be considered as throughput. That's an algorithmic discussion and will vary in use depending on the real world scenario - latency is a fixed overhead and won't vary. That's why I don't think talking about decompression is worthwhile just yet - we'd need to know more about the xsex algorithms and see how they do on real data. PS5 is more well known because their compression solution at least, is out there already.

If you're being told that the latency is being reduced by software as a comparison with the PS5 SSD, the person is using a very lazy (non computer science) definition of the term latency.

A good example is the discussion about Stream File Sampling - that is about optmising memory usage - it's nothing to do with the SDD latency, it's about reducing data size and will depend on the data and scenario, but I've seen people trying to lump all this in together with latency. It can't be put together that way - latency is measurable and fixed, the other stuff is algorithmic, data dependent, scenario dependent and thus variable.

One game might be heavily assisted by firmware and software techniques - another game might not, but the latency will always be the same.

 

[Corndog]

There's no difference in waht you describe here and putting dynamic game state on the SSD - in fact this was even done with HDDs for decades now.

Take an open world game - the game state includes changes to the "base" world well outside of the player's current view or interaction range. That stuff isn't held in RAM - there just isn't enough memory to waste on data you can be certain won't be used within the access time of the secondary storage. Yes when games are fast switched 13Gb of data are dumped - but 13Gbs is not the total dynamic game state except for simple games.

Your wrong. How large are save files? A save file is the sum total of your state data. Show me a single save file that is larger then 13 GB.

 

[thurnishaleygw]

The narratives are getting creative.

Pretty much.

 

[bhunachicken]

One the promise for the people who gave money was be PC exclusive, so I don't think so.

I imagine they also promised to deliver the finished game several years ago ...

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

SSD Impact on Games Will Be Massive as We Often Have to Discard Features Due to Long Loads, Says Dev

In our recent interview with Firesprite Games, the studio behind the roguelike survival horror The Persistence, we also learned from Game Director Stuart Tilley that there's a very specific reason games developed for SSD technology will be better: very often, features have to be discarded because their inclusion would lead to much longer load times.

I think the players are going to be the real winners here. The SSD is going to be massive to allow us to create larger worlds that load faster, to move quicker within them. It opens up possibilities for us. The new positional sound stuff is great for like, for games, being able to like play sound effects that feel like they're around you while you're on the couch, it's gonna make another big improvement. I think all the platforms have got a ton that they're offering. And I think it's gonna be a big win for players as far as I can see. It just is super exciting for us to be able to make our ambitions greater, sometimes you might have to discard a feature because it might require a long load, for example. Now, in the future, that may not be a problem. That'll very much directly allow us to make better games, I think that that's absolutely true.

Beyond the SSD tech, Stuart Tilley also claimed to be excited about the PlayStation 5's DualSense controller as controls are a massive part of immersion in games.

We always strive to immerse the player in the world. The immersion comes through how you touch the game, and what you see of the game. Obviously the chipset improvements will help with the visuals and the audio, but control is a massive part of it. You know, being able to get a much better feel for the surface the character is walking on or the things they're carrying in their hands or whatever. Again, even to be able to start creating some game experiences that perhaps you're not quite used to. It's just great, as a game creator we wait a long time for next-gen stuff to come around, so it's kind of like Christmas in game development land in that sense.

SSD Impact on Games Will Be Massive as We Often Have to Discard Features Due to Long Loads, Says Dev

Firesprite's Stuart Tilley said that the impact of SSD in gameswill be massive as often features have to be discarded due to long load times.

wccftech.com

 

[user1337]

I think the PS5 is finally strong enough to bring back the glory that was M.A.G.

256 player battles well before the current battle royales became a thing.

 

[Vaztu]

Have we already seen XSX IO capabilities in the quick resume tech demo they showcased ?

All games have a consistent 5-6 seconds load time between switches. They flush out 13.5GB RAM between the switches.

If my amateur speculation is correct, it takes 5-6 seconds to fill up 13.5GB RAM. This is 2.25 GB/s to 2.7 GB/s of transfer speeds and does not depend on type of game.

 

[ksdixon]

How does the land lay in terms of next gen rumored games?

PS All-stars Battle Royal 2, Silent Hill remake, or reboot (not sure which, maybe both?) tied to Japan Studio. Isn't there also an evergreen rumor of someone in WWS working on a SOCOM 2 remaster for years now?

Demons Souls Remake, MGS Remake, Castlevania new game, Jak & Daxter Trilogy Remake, Legacy Of Kain Remake all supposedly tied to Bluepoint Games.

I can't help but feel like there's going to be some heartbreak somewhere. I mean all of these rumors can't be true.

 

[Rikkori]

Boy, do we think that Star Citizen might come to the next gen boxes or have they said anything about that? That would be AWESOME!

I don't think CIG are necessarily opposed to that but remember that there's a HUGE difference in terms of UI & control when you are mouse & keyboard focused vs gamepad, plus they also have joystick and other niche peripheral support as well. Idk what the policy of the consoles is, but I imagine you HAVE to make it gamepad playable first which would be a huge undertaking in itself. I think if they could just ship it on consoles but it would require M&KB instead (as consoles do support that) then that would be a more realistic prospect of it landing on consoles. Though as good as consoles will be, let's not forget there's still 5+ years until a release (not counting SQ42) so the PC market will have moved much further past consoles again and who knows how it will scale down in the end.

 

[geordiemp]

Have we already seen XSX IO capabilities in the quick resume tech demo they showcased ?

All games have a consistent 5-6 seconds load time between switches. They flush out 13.5GB RAM between the switches.

If my amateur speculation is correct, it takes 5-6 seconds to fill up 13.5GB RAM. This is 2.25 GB/s to 2.7 GB/s of transfer speeds and does not depend on type of game.

Well first point is last gen games only worked with 5 GB or so of RAM. Might be more if XB1X so maybe 8 GB Max

Second point is look at timing on the video, it takes 11 seconds

Third point it was only last month.

It maybe not representative and MS may show allot of improvement, but it was odd that was the demo last month from a first party studio no less.

MS need to show what all the new words can actualy do in practice not theory.

 

[ToadMan]

Your wrong. How large are save files? A save file is the sum total of your state data. Show me a single save file that is larger then 13 GB.

We're not talking about save files - we're talking about game state. A lot of games use save points for a reason - the game is reset to a default state and the save data is small because it's based on a known preconfigured set of conditions.

Stopping a game at any point and switching to another game requires the entirety of the game world's current data to be stored and not all of that resides in RAM.

People haven't developed anything but simple games in the way you describe for about 20 years. Save file size is irrelevant to this point.

 

[FeiRR]

Your wrong. How large are save files? A save file is the sum total of your state data. Show me a single save file that is larger then 13 GB.

The thing is, we're not talking about save files here but game states. They aren't the same.

Edit: ha ha, ToadMan beat me to it.

 

[Vaztu]

Well first point is last gen games only worked with 5 GB or so of RAM. Might be more if XB1X so maybe 8 GB Max

Second point is look at timing on the video, it takes 11 seconds

Third point it was only last month.

It maybe not representative and MS may show allot of improvement, but it was odd that was the demo last month from a first party studio no less.

MS need to show what all the new words can actualy do in practice not theory.

Yes I agree MS needs to show what those words mean in practical day to day use.

If your first point is correct, the speed becomes even worse. Anywhere from 0.8 GB/s to 1.6 GB/s.

Secondly, the video you are talking about is SOD2 loading. This one is where they showcase their quick resume feature. All games, be it Hellblade, Ori or Forza, despite their size, took similar loading time of 5-6 seconds. It meant there was consistency in reloading RAM from SSD. The question here is how much RAM size are they working with, 5GB / 8GB / 13.5GB.

This may not be representative with next-gen games, as maybe the decompressor chips aren't utilized fully in the demo.

 

[Dodkrake]

Have we already seen XSX IO capabilities in the quick resume tech demo they showcased ?

All games have a consistent 5-6 seconds load time between switches. They flush out 13.5GB RAM between the switches.

If my amateur speculation is correct, it takes 5-6 seconds to fill up 13.5GB RAM. This is 2.25 GB/s to 2.7 GB/s of transfer speeds and does not depend on type of game.

Sounds about right

 

[Clintizzle]

What do you guys think is the most bullshit marketing phrase you have heard so far for next gen?

I have two.

1, "No load times" from both Sony and MS. I think that's just wild and I can already see the future back peddling.

2, "Suspend/resume mutliple games at a time" by MS. I can see it happening for two games early on but as games get more complex in a few years I don't think it will be possible for more than 2 games at a time.

 

[Corndog]

PS5 IO vs XSX IO



Yes I agree MS needs to show what those words mean in practical day to day use.

If your first point is correct, the speed becomes even worse. Anywhere from 0.8 GB/s to 1.6 GB/s.

Secondly, the video you are talking about is SOD2 loading. This one is where they showcase their quick resume feature. All games, be it Hellblade, Ori or Forza, despite their size, took similar loading time of 5-6 seconds. It meant there was consistency in reloading RAM from SSD. The question here is how much RAM size are they working with, 5GB / 8GB / 13.5GB.

This may not be representative with next-gen games, as maybe the decompressor chips aren't utilized fully in the demo.

They probably also have to store the current game to ssd for each switch as well so there is more going on then just loading.

 

[FranXico]

Have we already seen XSX IO capabilities in the quick resume tech demo they showcased ?

All games have a consistent 5-6 seconds load time between switches. They flush out 13.5GB RAM between the switches.

If my amateur speculation is correct, it takes 5-6 seconds to fill up 13.5GB RAM. This is 2.25 GB/s to 2.7 GB/s of transfer speeds and does not depend on type of game.

Pretty much matches the raw speed specs.

 

[Vaztu]

They probably also have to store the current game to ssd for each switch as well so there is more going on then just loading.

Right that is doing communication both ways. But that happens in asset streaming as well, no ? Where last 1 sec of gameplay (or whatever, last frame) goes back to the SSD.

As you say SSD, it makes me think, what will the performance be when using an external HDD. Surely people will put most of their BC games in an external HDD/SSD. Will quick resume even work with external storage devices ?

 

[FranXico]

As you say SSD, it makes me think, what will the performance be when using an external HDD. Surely people will put most of their BC games in an external HDD/SSD. Will quick resume even work with external storage devices ?

Quick resume dumps and loads saved memory states, you would normally only have slow loading when reading data from the HDD. Anything else will be fast.

 

[FranXico]

2, "Suspend/resume mutliple games at a time" by MS. I can see it happening for two games early on but as games get more complex in a few years I don't think it will be possible for more than 2 games at a time.

They already demoed the feature working for 3 games at a time. But like you say, there obviously are limits.

 

[HAL-01]

What do you guys think is the most bullshit marketing phrase you have heard so far for next gen?

I have two.

1, "No load times" from both Sony and MS. I think that's just wild and I can already see the future back peddling.

2, "Suspend/resume mutliple games at a time" by MS. I can see it happening for two games early on but as games get more complex in a few years I don't think it will be possible for more than 2 games at a time.

Honestly I think both of those points will be pretty spot on, game design with ssd in mind will be huge. Particularly Sony exclusives will do their best to drive the “no loading” point home.

Most bs phrase was probably that Xbox guy who said “60 FPS will be standard for series x” immediately before the AC 30fps news
I’ll throw in whatever reference to games running in 8K

 

[Vroadstar]

The narratives are getting creative.

Actually noticed the new "Sony SSD speed is overkill" narrative popping up recently. Maybe it's the new script

 

[FeiRR]

They already demoed the feature working for 3 games at a time. But like you say, there obviously are limits.

What limits do you have in mind? Of course there's the SSD capacity limit but that's well over 100x the size of an average game state.

 

[Radical_3d]

I think the PS5 is finally strong enough to bring back the glory that was M.A.G.

256 player battles well before the current battle royales became a thing.

 

[Corndog]

We're not talking about save files - we're talking about game state. A lot of games use save points for a reason - the game is reset to a default state and the save data is small because it's based on a known preconfigured set of conditions.

Stopping a game at any point and switching to another game requires the entirety of the game world's current data to be stored and not all of that resides in RAM.

People haven't deveoped anything but simple games in the way you describe for about 20 years. Save file size is irrelevant to this point.

Are you a programmer?
The only game I can think of that would work like that is Minecraft and even there it would not matter. You just connect to the current save file.

 

[xacto]

Being a Sony fan first and foremost I hoped my info was wrong and not only would the PS5 have the superior SSD but have that 13 tfs so many other people kept saying.

Even had a couple of those guys PM here saying how far off I was and I better get on the 13 tf or look like a fool.



Baseball but thats about as much info as you can drag out of me

BABE RUTH!!!

 

[BadBreathOfTheWild]

Right that is doing communication both ways. But that happens in asset streaming as well, no ? Where last 1 sec of gameplay (or whatever, last frame) goes back to the SSD.

With asset streaming; what exists in RAM is a copy of what is on the SSD. Once the data in RAM is no longer needed, it’s simple marked as free space again to have other stuff start overwriting it. It doesn’t need to send it back to the SSD.

Microsoft’s quick resume feature (in its simplest form) will need to store the current CPU/GPU/Cache/RAM state on the SSD in some manner, and then launch the next game, or restore the state of a resumed game to repopulate the CPU/GPU/Cache/RAM again.

There’s a lot of data to be written to and read from the SDD during a game switch. This will be getting as close to the 2.4GB/s raw read speed (and unknown but slower write speed) as possible. It’s unlikely to use (significant) compression in either direction as to compress the entire contents of RAM (to the point of reaching near 4.8GB/s on subsequent decompression) would take a long time on the CPU, and there isn’t a hardware compressor to my knowledge?

I’d expect around ~1.8GB/s writing suspending game to SSD, and around ~2.4GB/s restoring suspended game from SSD, with potentially ~4.8GB/s being used if a fresh game is being launched instead of resuming an existing one.

A specific XSX title being suspended or resumed might only need to save/load state information relative to a fresh load of the game from its compressed state on the SSD.
In that case a suspend could be nearly instant, and a resume around ~4.8GB/s.

That’s my understanding of how it might work. The second method requires implementing by hand by the developer, though. The first wouldn’t need a specific implementation.

 

[xacto]

Good grief. I haven't seen ANYONE say that this demo wasn't possible to run on a PC or XSX. What has been SAID is that it is POSSIBLE that the demo would have to be altered to use lower quality streamed assets due to the PS5's extremely fast SSD and I/O implementation. That has been implied by Epic as well, though not explicitly stated.

That's COMPLETELY different. This demo will undoubtedly run on an iPhone for Christ's sake. But if you think that the XSX and PS5 wouldn't be running it at higher quality than the iPhone, I have some nice swamp land I'd like to sell you.

Can we put this straw man to bed that 'people are claiming the XSX won't run the Lumen demo?' You KNOW you're just obscuring the facts and arguing a false position. How about we stipulate to the FACT that UE5 is a multi-platform engine that is BUILT to run on as many platforms as possible and then agree that we'd all like to see this specific demo code available in the future to compare on various platforms, once UE5 is released? Because we CANNOT know the answer to these questions for certain until that happens. Till then, the logical assumption IS that various platforms will require some adjustments when running a demo like this or others. And unless you want to speculate that the XSX is somehow just as fast or faster in I/O so that it can stream the same or higher quality assets in realtime...the logical assumption (FOR NOW) is that the demo was purpose built for the PS5 and this particular strength, just like EPIC said. No big conspiracy here and as many others have stated as well, surely a similar demo could be built to showcase the strength of the XSX and likely do some things that PC's and the PS5 can't do currently either. Happy now?

Man... more than 10 pages of this shit keeps coming up. ENOUGH ALREADY. Hate to break it to some of you, but your favorite toy, whether it's the PS5 or the XSX, are likely NOT GOING TO BE THE BEST AT EVERYTHING. So PS5 fans will probably have to acknowledge that the XSX has some advantages in certain areas and XSX fans will have to accept the same for the PS5. And PC fans will probably have to accept that BOTH will be stronger at least than the most high end gaming PC setups at some things..at least for a while.

Now we can quibble about this or that, but not accepting those FACTS is just a road to pain...and not conducive to debate either. STOP. PLEASE!

If this demo would've been shown on Xbox or PC, everything would have been just peachy. But Playstation?! GOD FORBID!

 

[BadBreathOfTheWild]

We're not talking about save files - we're talking about game state. A lot of games use save points for a reason - the game is reset to a default state and the save data is small because it's based on a known preconfigured set of conditions.

Stopping a game at any point and switching to another game requires the entirety of the game world's current data to be stored and not all of that resides in RAM.

People haven't deveoped anything but simple games in the way you describe for about 20 years. Save file size is irrelevant to this point.

This is also why in a lot of games when you save your game and load it again, you’re not standing in the same spot, resuming the same player idle animation that was there when you saved, with the same bird flying overhead.
It usually just saves your story/mission progress to the latest checkpoint, your inventory, and if you’re lucky, your position in the game world.
A lot of times you’re standing somewhere different and near a checkpoint area when you load your save again.

An actual suspend and resume need to save the entire RAM contents and working state of the CPU etc, or the saving system needs to have much finer control over reconfiguring the game state to emulate a resume but while being able to stream in compressed 4.8GB/s assets for speed.

The finer control over save/load takes more effort and is more error prone. I don’t expect many to bother.
Maybe Microsoft could provide an API that allows developers to mark certain loaded objects as being immutable and from the game repo, and mutable and may have been edited since and therefore needs saving in some kind of suspend file.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they just dumped the entire working caches and registers to a file with light CPU based compression for speed, and then just restored it all at somewhere over 2.4GB/s but nowhere near 4.8GB/s max decompression ratio.

 

[zubairali2]

ahhh page 1996 my birth year

 

[BadBreathOfTheWild]

ahhh page 1996 my birth year

Manufacturer year for my lovely car, too. The paintwork is proof of that, sadly.

 

[zubairali2]

Manufacturer year for my lovely car, too. The paintwork is proof of that, sadly.

my father used to drive a rover 800 vitesse. the seats in that car was super comfortable and the sound of the engine was one of its kind. good times

 

[Vaztu]

With asset streaming; what exists in RAM is a copy of what is on the SSD. Once the data in RAM is no longer needed, it’s simple marked as free space again to have other stuff start overwriting it. It doesn’t need to send it back to the SSD.

Microsoft’s quick resume feature (in its simplest form) will need to store the current CPU/GPU/Cache/RAM state on the SSD in some manner, and then launch the next game, or restore the state of a resumed game to repopulate the CPU/GPU/Cache/RAM again.

There’s a lot of data to be written to and read from the SDD during a game switch. This will be getting as close to the 2.4GB/s raw read speed (and unknown but slower write speed) as possible. It’s unlikely to use (significant) compression in either direction as to compress the entire contents of RAM (to the point of reaching near 4.8GB/s on subsequent decompression) would take a long time on the CPU, and there isn’t a hardware compressor to my knowledge?

I’d expect around ~1.8GB/s writing suspending game to SSD, and around ~2.4GB/s restoring suspended game from SSD, with potentially ~4.8GB/s being used if a fresh game is being launched instead of resuming an existing one.

A specific XSX title being suspended or resumed might only need to save/load state information relative to a fresh load of the game from its compressed state on the SSD.
In that case a suspend could be nearly instant, and a resume around ~4.8GB/s.

That’s my understanding of how it might work. The second method requires implementing by hand by the developer, though. The first wouldn’t need a specific implementation.

Thanks for taking time to explain it. So, how much RAM do you think they are loading in those current-gen games showcasing quick resume tech ?

Well first point is last gen games only worked with 5 GB or so of RAM. Might be more if XB1X so maybe 8 GB Max

Cause if it is what geordie is saying, the average read & write speed is much lower, from 0.8 GB/s to 1.6 GB/s. If the premise is correct either write speed is much lower - bring the average down, or both speeds are on average low.

 

[Radical_3d]

ahhh page 1996 my birth year

I find youth insulting.

Remember. Reveal at page 4.000.

 

[Shmunter]

What do you guys think is the most bullshit marketing phrase you have heard so far for next gen?

I have two.

1, "No load times" from both Sony and MS. I think that's just wild and I can already see the future back peddling.

2, "Suspend/resume mutliple games at a time" by MS. I can see it happening for two games early on but as games get more complex in a few years I don't think it will be possible for more than 2 games at a time.

The suspend/resume should be game agnostic and future proof as it’s just a memory dump to storage. Max 16 gig.

Even if mid gen pro version should double ram, it shouldn’t pose a challenge for these ssd speeds.

The no loading times could be less impressive as you point out, after all loading may not be the issue getting into a game, it could be all the peripheral processing and online connecting holding things up. Either way, the overall experience should delight compared to current gen.

 

[thurnishaleygw]

I find youth insulting.

Remember. Reveal at page 4.000.

What are you gonna reveal at page 4.000?

 

[Oddspeak]

I think the PS5 is finally strong enough to bring back the glory that was M.A.G.

256 player battles well before the current battle royales became a thing.

Man, this game's only crime was that it came out 7-8 years too early. If it released just before BR games picked up steam, it would've made a bigger splash, as not nearly enough people were as constantly connected in 2010 as they are now.

 

[geordiemp]

Thanks for taking time to explain it. So, how much RAM do you think they are loading in those current-gen games showcasing quick resume tech ?



Cause if it is what geordie is saying, the average read & write speed is much lower, from 0.8 GB/s to 1.6 GB/s. If the premise is correct either write speed is much lower - bring the average down, or both speeds are on average low.

To check out last gen games which were written for last gen consoles, you can google the total RAM of each last gen system and the OS footprint, they are allot lower than these next gen consoles.

Its not an estimation, available RAM for XB1X, XB1, Ps4 and Ps4Pro is well known, and those games wont use more memory unless remastered for Ps5 / XSX with allot more assests.

 

[martino]

The no loading times could be less impressive as you point out, after all loading may not be the issue getting into a game, it could be all the peripheral processing and online connecting holding things up. Either way, the overall experience should delight compared to current gen.

destiny 2 comes to mind
loading tower is one minute even on pc with a ssd.
imo most of this time is network and bungie one is meh.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Have we already seen XSX IO capabilities in the quick resume tech demo they showcased ?

All games have a consistent 5-6 seconds load time between switches. They flush out 13.5GB RAM between the switches.

If my amateur speculation is correct, it takes 5-6 seconds to fill up 13.5GB RAM. This is 2.25 GB/s to 2.7 GB/s of transfer speeds and does not depend on type of game.

Those XB1 games won't need 13.5GB of ram. They'd need about 5GB max. Yes that's only about 1GB/s of bandwidth which is expected because of random reads using a max 2.4GB/s raw speed (without compression).

I expect about 2GB/s of random reads using compression. PS5 is at 8/9 GB/s or random reads in a real test, about 4x faster.

 

[Vaztu]

To check out last gen games which were written for last gen consoles, you can google the total RAM of each last gen system and the OS footprint, they are allot lower than these next gen consoles.

Its not an estimation, available RAM for XB1X, XB1, Ps4 and Ps4Pro is well known, and those games wont use more memory unless remastered for Ps5 / XSX with allot more assests.

Yeah what you are saying is true and completely logical. But, that reduces average read & write speeds even more in my amateur speculation. Hence why I was hesitant. From average 2.25-2.7 GB/s read&write to 0.8-1.6 GB/s.

 

[Vaztu]

	PS5 IO	XSX IO
Flash Controller	12 Lanes - Six levels of priority. Make - Rumoured to be Marvel. Link	4 Lanes - Two levels of priority. Make - Rumoured to be Phison. Link
Decompression	Bespoke Hardware. 9 Zen2 CPU Cores worth of work	Bespoke Hardware. 3 Zen2 CPU Cores worth of work
Coherency	Bespoke Hardware. Assits IO Co-processors and GPU Cache Scrubbers. Housekeeper of sorts, keeps everything in place	Unspecified - 1
Mapping	Bespoke Hardware. One IO Co-processor with shared SRAM	10% of 1 Zen2 CPU Core used. May have possible DRAM
File IO	Bespoke Hardware. One IO Co-processor with shared SRAM	The above helps in this too
Check In & Load Management	Bespoke Hardware. DMA Controller does 2 Zen2 CPU core worth of work	Unspecified - 2
GPU Cache Scrubbers	Bespoke Hardware. Evicts portions of cache instead of entire cache, protects from GPU stalls	Unspecified - 3

Some questions on unspecified:

1. Is CPU processing utilized to make the process more coherent ?
2. Will it utilize CPU core if its not dedicated hardware ?
3. If none, it invalidates the entire cache before filling it with new data, more susceptible to GPU stalls. Worsens Latency.

 

[ToadMan]

Are you a programmer?
The only game I can think of that would work like that is Minecraft and even there it would not matter. You just connect to the current save file.

Yes.

Minecraft? Maybe you're just not playing the games that would make this obvious. Minecraft is a procedurally generated game with a simple structure that avoids extreme use of memory. Thats why it runs on everything everywhere. I'm a big fan of procedural generation - but most AAA games aren't like that.

Any persistent world game of decent scale - open world games like RDR or highly persistent RPGs - have game state data beyond what is in system RAM. If "instant suspend/resume" of games is going to happen, the RAM and all that supporting data must be stored at the moment the suspend option is selected. If this isn't done, the resume is not a real resume - it's just loading a savegame with the player back at whatever checkpoint they were at with a canned game state.

 

[zubairali2]

I find youth insulting.

Remember. Reveal at page 4.000.

sometimes the world has gotta change