Support NeoGAF

[Corndog]

Its the thing I am most excited for next gen.

Have an SSD in my Pro but still the old HDD in my X and hate it.

Do you have any idea how many games Sony will be showing at their event?

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Do you have any idea how many games Sony will be showing at their event?

Sadly I do not.

 

[M1chl]

Hmm, might consider it:

But I don't have the power in me to play old games, I just can't even for free



Yup, so many delays, but how the community contributed to the game with art and draws it means we are gonna see lots of unique stuff in there! The wait might be worth it.

I G N O R E D
J/K

Anyway, but when game is good, is good forever no? Because for me, that's why I value BC so much. Trust me I am the one who likes to bitch about framerate, frame pacing, but first game is just a fucking good game. You should play it.

 

[Corndog]

Don't the other games take up that space as well for the switching function?

Are you talking switching games from a saved state? The 100 GB isn’t in actual ram. It is just the game data itself sitting on the ssd. So besides loading the save state from the ssd it shouldn’t matter.

Edit:
I may have misunderstood. I assume each game just stores the current contents of ram to ssd for each game that uses that switching functionality. So probably a max of 4 times 13.5. So 54 GBs.

 

[Metroiddarks]

If the UE5 demo on PS5 was doing 1440 @ 40FPS then XSX should be able to do about 1440 @ 46FPS providing the SSD is fast enough to handle the stream.

We really need to know what the max streaming speed needed for that demo was. Because if the XSX SSD solution is enough then the larger question is if the Sony SSD solution was overkill. The last thing I want to see is sony forcing its use as a gimmicky afterthought in some of the 1st party games.

One thing is believe the demo can run in same quality and other is put it a number to framarate and also a feature of in the internal hardware of the console not the control
the console itself could gimmicky? when probably for the end of the next year will be not weird to see a SSD in PC reach 6 GB/s.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I G N O R E D
J/K

Anyway, but when game is good, is good forever no? Because for me, that's why I value BC so much. Trust me I am the one who likes to bitch about framerate, frame pacing, but first game is just a fucking good game. You should play it.

I have zero interest in BC, haha! That's why I bought crash trilogy day one and only played it for less than 20-30 minutes and never touched it again. Bought it for some nostalgia. I'm more than sure that they'll make a remake for the first one after this new prequel, or maybe a reboot?

 

[MasterCornholio]

Are you talking switching games from a saved state? The 100 GB isn’t in actual ram. It is just the game data itself sitting on the ssd. So besides loading the save state from the ssd it shouldn’t matter.

So does the 100GBs contain the saved states?

 

[M1chl]

I have zero interest in BC, haha! That's why I bought crash trilogy day one and only played it for less than 20-30 minutes and never touched it again. Bought it for some nostalgia. I'm more than sure that they'll make a remake for the first one after this new prequel, or maybe a reboot?

Well, I would like to know where are you getting this confidence, because I expect nothing more than upres. Since I honestly would like to believe that such game deserves RE2/3 type of remake, but I somewhat doubt it. Because it seems to me, that second one game being in development is some miracle.

 

[farmerboy]

That's a tough one to call. We can't rule out a Tweet to say they'll do their teardown like they did with Mark Cerny's deep dive.

If not then the reveal will probably be a full 2 hours.

At this point, I'd take a nice full, juicy, 2 hr show. After all this waiting, a 45min "show" with other stuff spread out would just be infuriating.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Well, I would like to know where are you getting this confidence, because I expect nothing more than upres. Since I honestly would like to believe that such game deserves RE2/3 type of remake, but I somewhat doubt it. Because it seems to me, that second one game being in development is some miracle.

It's highly praised, has a pretty good metacritic score:

Beyond Good & Evil

The planet of Hyllis has fallen under siege by a ruthless alien race. Despite the assurances of the Alpha Section defense squad, the war drags on, terrorizing the once-beautiful planet and crushing the faith of the people. From the rubble of a tiny island rises Jade - a rebellious young action...

www.metacritic.com

And it's an easy cash-grab that Ubisoft won't need too much work to make, as it'll use the same engine, just like Origins/Odyssey. Playing the first might ruin the prequel now, so I might consider it later if no news of a remake/reboot

 

[M1chl]

It's highly praised, has a pretty good metacritic score:

Beyond Good & Evil

The planet of Hyllis has fallen under siege by a ruthless alien race. Despite the assurances of the Alpha Section defense squad, the war drags on, terrorizing the once-beautiful planet and crushing the faith of the people. From the rubble of a tiny island rises Jade - a rebellious young action...

www.metacritic.com

And it's an easy cash-grab that Ubisoft won't need too much work to do to make it, as it'll use the same engine, just like Origins/Odyssey. Playing the first might ruin the prequel now, so I might consider it later if no news of a remake/reboot

Do it.

 

[farmerboy]

Sadly I do not.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

At this point, I'd take a nice full, juicy, 2 hr show. After all this waiting, a 45min "show" with other stuff spread out would just be infuriating.

Yeah I'll take anything at this point. The only thing I'm curious about is how it will come across without a live crowd. I hope it isn't as dry as Road to PS5. As a technical talk that was fine but for a full reveal of a console and games it would be really weird. I guess we have to allow for the current limitations.

 

[DeepEnigma]

If the UE5 demo on PS5 was doing 1440 @ 40FPS then XSX should be able to do about 1440 @ 46FPS providing the SSD is fast enough to handle the stream.

We really need to know what the max streaming speed needed for that demo was. Because if the XSX SSD solution is enough then the larger question is if the Sony SSD solution was overkill. The last thing I want to see is sony forcing its use as a gimmicky afterthought in some of the 1st party games.

The narratives are getting creative.

 

[splattered]

Yeah I'll take anything at this point. The only thing I'm curious about is how it will come across without a live crowd. I hope it isn't as dry as Road to PS5. As a technical talk that was fine but for a full reveal of a console and games it would be really weird. I guess we have to allow for the current limitations.

I have a feeling they have been taking notes from reactions on the Xbox shows so far... i'm totally expecting them to put on a 60-90 minute show full of console info and a bunch of game reveals.

Unfortunately i'm also expecting a lot of Killzone 2 & Anthem style bull-shot videos with target footage as they have a history of doing this.

I bet the games are going to be absolutely awesome I just want to see what they're really going to look like, not estimated target garbage.

 

[Kerlurk]

Although Zlib is supported, Kraken is the main compression system here. Most likely it's paid by Sony, so devs don't need to pay again for it. Kraken is way superior as well, and lossless as well as I understood.

Correct. Thanks, and forgot about that.

The main difference being (3-5x) decompression speed over zlib, and the points you mentioned.

My guess that Kraken is also similar to zlib, in that it was easy to implement a fixed sized decompression buffer, that was smaller enough to fit on the chip, without having too high of a transistor cost.

It would interesting to know how big it is.

PC
---> LOAD ASSETS FROM SSD --> [SET ASIDE MEMORY FOR COMPRESSED ASSETS] --> [DE-COMPRESS USING CPU CORES] --> [REMOVE COMPRESSED ASSETS FROM MEMORY (THAT IS IF YOU NEED THAT SPACE)] --> [COPY ASSETS TO VIDEO MEMORY - ANOTHER MAJOR CPU OPERATION]
This is really inefficient use of memory, as the compressed assets took up space. So you always have to reserve a portion of memory. You could do "chunks" and use less memory, which would make more sense, especially if streaming in data while the game is running.

PS5
---> LOAD ASSETS FROM SSD --> [DE-COMPRESS USING FIXED HARDWARE] --> [STORE IN MEMORY]
The main advantage is that the CPU CORES are not needed for any heavy duty decompression, and no part of memory is needed to store the compressed assets.

Another main advantage the PS5 has, it's SSD does not use a file system. Everything is mapped via addresses, just like memory. So less overhead, and better use of space. I'm sure programmers will find that incredibly refreshing to work with.

 

[PaintTinJr]

It's what ever people want to make up. You really think a pro PS5 will be 36 cu at 4Ghz? Sony has great messaging today 52 cu are impossible to program for. Next 72 CUs are great and the new sweetness..

That isn't really what was meant by the example Cerny gave in his GDC talk. The CUs don't exist in a vacuum and just hammer away at a compute problem without needing all the supporting hardware to keep them fed. They are the workhouse, and to keep with that analogy, too big a workhouse is difficult to keep busy with enough work for many reasons. That doesn't preclude the option to have two or more optimal sized workhouses elsewhere, and working to capacity, too, doing different work or splitting overall work between the multiple sites/units.

If a PS5 Pro exists, I would expect it to arrive with multiple APUs using AMD's infinity link (or newer solution).

 

[saintjules]

At this point, I'd take a nice full, juicy, 2 hr show. After all this waiting, a 45min "show" with other stuff spread out would just be infuriating.

I was thinking the same. 2 hours to hold us over to August. I don't think they'll be doing anything in July.

It's either June or August for price info in my mind.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Correct. Thanks, and forgot about that.

The main difference being (3-5x) decompression speed over zlib, and the points you mentioned.

My guess that Kraken is also similar to zlib, in that it was easy to implement a fixed sized decompression buffer, that was smaller enough to fit on the chip, without having too high of a transistor cost.

It would interesting to know how big it is.

PC
---> LOAD ASSETS FROM SSD --> [SET ASIDE MEMORY FOR COMPRESSED ASSETS] --> [DE-COMPRESS USING CPU CORES] --> [REMOVE COMPRESSED ASSETS FROM MEMORY (THAT IS IF YOU NEED THAT SPACE)] --> [COPY ASSETS TO VIDEO MEMORY - ANOTHER MAJOR CPU OPERATION]
This is really inefficient use of memory, as the compressed assets took up space. So you always have to reserve a portion of memory. You could do "chunks" and use less memory, which would make more sense, especially if streaming in data while the game is running.

PS5
---> LOAD ASSETS FROM SSD --> [DE-COMPRESS USING FIXED HARDWARE] --> [STORE IN MEMORY]
The main advantage is that the CPU CORES are not needed for any heavy duty decompression, and no part of memory is needed to store the compressed assets.

Another main advantage the PS5 has, it's SSD does not use a file system. Everything is mapped via addresses, just like memory. So less overhead, and better use of space. I'm sure programmers will find that incredibly refreshing to work with.

Now you break it down that way, it's pretty neat to say the least. Learning a lot from great tech-heads like you, thanks a lot

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I have a feeling they have been taking notes from reactions on the Xbox shows so far... i'm totally expecting them to put on a 60-90 minute show full of console info and a bunch of game reveals.

Unfortunately i'm also expecting a lot of Killzone 2 & Anthem style bull-shot videos with target footage as they have a history of doing this.

I bet the games are going to be absolutely awesome I just want to see what they're really going to look like, not estimated target garbage.

Didn't they stop doing that after the PS3 reveal? I'll be surprised if we see anything other than real-time stuff. Maybe a third-party trailer might be cinematic (Starfield?) but a lot of Sony's own big studio's have had ~3 years to come up with stuff at this point. Probably more time and studio's than any previous gen? Also it is likely that a few outside studio exclusives like Housemarque and RAD have both also been working on unannounced games for years. Sony could have a ridiculous amount of games in the works.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

It's what ever people want to make up. You really think a pro PS5 will be 36 cu at 4Ghz? Sony has great messaging today 52 cu are impossible to program for. Next 72 CUs are great and the new sweetness. Best Messaging in the industry I admire it the coordination, timing and locking up epic was pure genius. By the time Microsoft can respond with a unreal 5 demo they will have been dreamcasted as they say. Brilliantly played and pulled off. This was the game Sharing video of E3 2013 moment the death blow. There is no recovery from this I applaud it as someone who loves strategy play out.

About that 72CU, probably Big Navi will be the first stacked 40+40 GPU from AMD, with no deactivated CU's. That will paint the future of AMD-based GPU's going forward. I can see this being PS5 Pro's prototype gameplay, Gran Turismo at 8K@120fps, HDR, Ray-traced:





If they're aiming for 4K@240fps (8K@60fps equivalent) on base PS5, double that and you get 8K@120fps or 4K@480fps. But indeed, they might go with HBM2/HBM2E for 1-2TB/s bandwidth.

Wild speculations, but not baseless.

 

[Killer Sakoman]

It's 1994, Playstation released in Japan

 

[Radical_3d]

PC
---> LOAD ASSETS FROM SSD --> [SET ASIDE MEMORY FOR COMPRESSED ASSETS] --> [DE-COMPRESS USING CPU CORES] --> [REMOVE COMPRESSED ASSETS FROM MEMORY (THAT IS IF YOU NEED THAT SPACE)] --> [COPY ASSETS TO VIDEO MEMORY - ANOTHER MAJOR CPU OPERATION]
This is really inefficient use of memory, as the compressed assets took up space. So you always have to reserve a portion of memory. You could do "chunks" and use less memory, which would make more sense, especially if streaming in data while the game is running.

But PCs can rely on the actual system RAM that is miles ahead of the PS5 solution. And therefore hace an overhead where assets are put into the RAM from the disk. Obviously this solution is more expensive and requires more RAM but PCs already need those two pools. Comparing a closed box with a standard of infinite configurations have no sense.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

No , just people saying that demo was only possible on PS5 when it’s not true.

Not "just people", the founder and CEO of Epic Games, the owners of Unreal Engine. If they're referred to as "just people", then who are "THE PEOPLE" to believe? A worker who's playing the video on the laptop? Or people who have ZERO proof that it will work as it is on other platforms? With all due respect, it's trolling at this point.

All proofs and quotations have been provided, we're spinning on mud with this matter and we need to be pulled out of it and move on.

 

[PaintTinJr]

But PCs can rely on the actual system RAM that is miles ahead of the PS5 solution. And therefore hace an overhead where assets are put into the RAM from the disk. Obviously this solution is more expensive and requires more RAM but PCs already need those two pools. Comparing a closed box with a standard of infinite configurations have no sense.

I don't think they can, as it isn't unified and the vram amount they would need in a worst case scenario of kraken doing 20GB/s throughput would require 40GB of vram on PC, assuming average vram use on PS5 is 10GB and 4:1 decompression.

edit:
I guess there is a scenario where the GPU had enough spare ACEs to do the decompression too - without needing 11x Zen2 cores @ 3.6GHz - but I think it would still need twice the vram (20GB) to avoid big RAM to VRAM transfers when trying to decompress the data.

 

[MasterCornholio]

No , just people saying that demo was only possible on PS5 when it’s not true.

I believe its possible on other platforms. However can you just copy and paste it over?

No you can not.

You would have to make changes in order for that demo to function properly.

The question is what changes do you have to make?

 

[Imtjnotu]

Sadly I do not.

typed in boring on gifer...


guess what showed up

 

[Killer Sakoman]

I don't think they can, as it isn't unified and the vram amount they would need in a worst case scenario of kraken doing 20GB/s throughput would require 40GB of vram on PC, assuming average vram use on PS5 is 10GB and 4:1 decompression.

Damn, I remember an AMD presentation with similar technology we have on PS5 and it was rendering detailed graphics while another high end GPU struggled. I need to find it on youtube. I think it was presented by their guy who is now with Intel.
I don't know why PC manufacturers did not go that route.

 

[44alltheway]

No he was not, stop clowning.

please, educate me

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Man everything?

Thats a terrible track record.

I wouldn't listen to me either.

Man, you are the biggest rival of BGs for the "Most Polite Poster" title in here. Kudos

 

[roops67]

Man, you are the biggest rival of BGs for the "Most Polite Poster" title in here. Kudos

Nice example of Screen Space Reflection

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Man, you are the biggest rival of BGs for the "Most Polite Poster" title in here. Kudos

I am 53 years old and have been retired for almost 20 years now.

Life has been very kind to me and I am quite a happy person so people on a forum have to go the extra mile to piss me off

 

[3liteDragon]

typed in boring on gifer...


guess what showed up

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I am 53 years old and have been retired for almost 20 years now.

Life has been very kind to me and I am quite a happy person so people on a forum have to go the extra mile to piss me off

You are a great person and I really love seeing those floating gotee, glasses, and fedora around Keep enjoying life, or quarantine at the moment. Warm regards.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I am 53 years old and have been retired for almost 20 years now.

Life has been very kind to me and I am quite a happy person so people on a forum have to go the extra mile to piss me off

Woah, how did you retire so early?

 

[MasterCornholio]

Life has been very kind to me

No duh since you retired when you were 33 years old. Must be all the meth that you cooked up in that trailer. I was there when you did that but for other reasons.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Woah, how did you retire so early?

I was lucky to play sports professionally.

 

[ANIMAL1975]

please, educate me

Heisenberg always said that XSX had the Tflops lead since the beginning, and always stood by it even when OsirisBlack was claiming to know for sure that PS5 was aiming above the 12TF.
And on top of that, the only time he gave concrete numbers, was when he started hearing from the 'little bird' (the Sony source) that PS5 was on the 10tf ballpark, with small difference to XSX (which it is ~18%) and again, XSX having the lead...
Again, Heise always stick to it against all rumors going around, here and in other places, giving ps5 the crown in the Tflops race... and always with Mod of War blessing. So you probably mixing him up with someone else, and a quick search on HeisenbergFX4 post history will clear things up for you... in the end be a gent and apologize to the dude that is a big ps fan and had to carry the heavy burden of the ignoble truth.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I was lucky to play sports professionally.

Hopefully nothing that left you messed up.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Heisenberg always said that XSX had the Tflops lead since the beginning, and always stood by it even when OsirisBlack was claiming to know for sure that PS5 was aiming above the 12TF.
And on top of that, the only time he gave concrete numbers, was when he started hearing from the 'little bird' (the Sony source) that PS5 was on the 10tf ballpark, with small difference to XSX (which it is ~18%) and again, XSX having the lead...
Again, Heise always stick to it against all rumors going around, here and in other places, giving ps5 the crown in the Tflops race... and always with Mod of War blessing. So you probably mixing him up with someone else, and a quick search on HeisenbergFX4 post history will clear things up for you... in the end be a gent and apologize to the dude that is a big ps fan and had to carry the heavy burden of the ignoble truth.

I've been watching the speculation thread since the beginning and HeisenbergFX4 turned out to be one of the best insiders that we have.

Oh and he didn't give us a bunch of pigeons.

One of these days I'll get my revenge!!!!

Shout out to Gavin Stevens

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Hopefully nothing that left you messed up.

Dozen or so surgeries and needing more work on my shoulder and knees, nothing too bad though

 

[ethomaz]

Quality > quantity imo.

If Sony shows for example three games: Demon’s Sould Remake, Horizon 2 (Or Spider-Man 2) and Silent Hill Reboot.

Basically owned.

 

[HarryKS]

I was lucky to play sports professionally.

What sport?

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Heisenberg always said that XSX had the Tflops lead since the beginning, and always stood by it even when OsirisBlack was claiming to know for sure that PS5 was aiming above the 12TF.
And on top of that, the only time he gave concrete numbers, was when he started hearing from the 'little bird' (the Sony source) that PS5 was on the 10tf ballpark, with small difference to XSX (which it is ~18%) and again, XSX having the lead...
Again, Heise always stick to it against all rumors going around, here and in other places, giving ps5 the crown in the Tflops race... and always with Mod of War blessing. So you probably mixing him up with someone else, and a quick search on HeisenbergFX4 post history will clear things up for you... in the end be a gent and apologize to the dude that is a big ps fan and had to carry the heavy burden of the ignoble truth.

Being a Sony fan first and foremost I hoped my info was wrong and not only would the PS5 have the superior SSD but have that 13 tfs so many other people kept saying.

Even had a couple of those guys PM here saying how far off I was and I better get on the 13 tf or look like a fool.

What sport?

Baseball but thats about as much info as you can drag out of me

 

[HawarMiran]

I was lucky to play sports professionally.

what sport?
edit. someone asked earlier

 

[MasterCornholio]

Dozen or so surgeries and needing more work on my shoulder and knees, nothing too bad though

Ok at least it wasn't something like brain damage from boxing. That's something that would really mess you up.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Quality > quantity imo.

If Sony shows for example three games: Demon’s Sould Remake, Horizon 2 (Or Spider-Man 2) and Silent Hill Reboot.

Basically owned.

I really want to be surprised though. The first time we see games being unveiled for a new system is the perfect time for new unexpected original game. Remakes and sequels can’t be all there is.

 

[Shmunter]

Let me put it another way... Normally, data travels like this (extremely simplified);
Disk -> RAM -> GPU -> Display

What XVA claims to do is make 100GB of the SSD work as RAM. So technically it's this;
Disk -> GPU -> Display

But the system would see that exact same operation like this;
RAM -> GPU -> Display

So the loaded data doesn't need to be stored anywhere. It might use the 16GB RAM pool itself for the buffering after it being transferred to the GPU.

However that plays out, there is also CPU coordinating this on XsX, only PS5 has extra processing to not need cpu...

PS5
SSD > Hardware I/o block > RAM

XsX
SSD > Cpu > Hardware Decompression block > RAM

To decode/decompress data you need to copy from RAM to RAM.
You cannot fetch something into GPU register or cache if it's not in RAM (not to mention that "piecewise" (de)compressors that can fetch small data are compressing badly)
Unless page faults are served by the memory controller directly. But it means the data needs to be prepared (decompressed/decoded) by the controller.
You can read everything in the Sony's SSD patent, I don't see any deficiencies there, it's an optimal path, given the constraints. And XBSX has the same constraints.

Yes, you need to store the decompressed result somewhere. Even if deemed virtual memory, it is paged in and out of ram; not directly into a processor.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Baseball but thats about as much info as you can drag out of me

Hah. that's awesome. Huge baseball fan here....now you have me curious

 

[ANIMAL1975]

Woah, how did you retire so early?

I was lucky to play sports professionally.

Yeah dude, i know that sports since my teens

It was a fun ride while it lasted, but yes we have retire very young...