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[martino]

Imagine being mad at business partnerships.
Fasten your belts, I guess.

Oh and man, if Sega unveils a new console...

Can this be possible in 2020 without any hint at it ?

 

[thurnishaleygw]

Some half ass statement does nothing 24 hours later the damage was done. It was brilliant by Sony to lock up that demo and dreamcast the series x basically. He can say all wants with out proof no gives a crap. Wait next year lol after Sony has it locked up. They were winning no matter what. But damn it was geniuses to use that demo and mouth piece to take a sledgehammer to the series x and PC. You all witnessed history that day that was the E3 YouTube of sharing a game friend in 2013 that won a generation moment. Well played and executed.

I actually agree with what you say and I think it reinforces my point, Sony basically didn't need to do anything more than let that demo happen on their system to strike a blow. Nothing more.

 

[hemo memo]

Not really sure why it matters that Epic chose the PS5 to show their engine demo on. They've already said that it will also run on XSX just as good, so why does it matter?

It doesn’t matter because they chose the PS5 to show their engine demo because they made a marketing deal. Some people here acting like Epic was going around trying consoles and was so impressed by the PS5 SSD speed that they chose to make their engine demo for it lol. That’s not how business works.

This is Epic. This is UE. The engine is going to run not only on next-gen consoles but on EVERYTHING.

 

[The Shift]

And I personally agree with that, but that's something between Epic and Microsoft, Sony has no part to play on that front. So, if anything, Epic's decision to show UE5 on PS5 might have been a conscious decision by them, not something for which Sony needed to pay a lot for.

I never believed there was a financial agreement involved. There is no doubt there are competitive strategies at play in these relationships - that's undeniable in business.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

In your dreams maybe

And also:

Sweeney isn’t saying the new Xbox won’t be able to achieve something similar; both are using custom SSDs that promise blazing speeds. source

But ok, you two can keep believing what has been shown was only possible on PS5. Without knowing anything about the demo itself technically, like for example the asset size that is being loaded in every frame. Don't stop believin'.

 

[dr guildo]

and bloodborne!

And Driveclub!

 

[Thirty7ven]

And also:

But ok, you two can keep believing what has been shown was only possible on PS5. Without knowing anything about the demo itself technically, like for example the asset size that is being loaded in every frame. Don't stop believin'.

But that's not what you said, you took creatively liberty and said "(engine demo) it will also run on XSX just as good ". Everyone knows Unreal 5 tech will work just fine on XSX, otherwise the new features would be worthless and more than likely scrapped altogether.

 

[MasterCornholio]

If Sony paid Epic for the demo then why was there no Ps5 or sony logos to be seen anywhere

If they did then it's really really bad marketing. Which is why I don't believe Sonys marketing team are that incompetent.

 

[Vaztu]

This argument boils down to this:

Will Lumen, Land of Nanite (the tech demo) be able to run ditto (or even better) on the XSX ?

Answer - No one knows. We know UE5 can be scaled. Whether it is scaled up or down in XSX (for tech demo) is the question.

As of right now, nothing official has been revealed as to 'at what quality XSX runs the demo'.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

But that's not what you said, you took creatively liberty and said "(engine demo) it will also run on XSX just as good ". Everyone knows Unreal 5 tech will work just fine on XSX, otherwise the new features would be worthless and more than likely scrapped altogether.

Yeah because there's such a big difference between "runs on XSX just as good" and "awesome on both".

 

[martino]

This argument boils down to this:

Will Lumen, Land of Nanite (the tech demo) be able to run ditto (or even better) on the XSX ?

Answer - No one knows. We know UE5 can be scaled. Whether it is scaled up or down in XSX (for tech demo) is the question.

As of right now, nothing official has been revealed as to 'at what quality XSX runs the demo'.

it can be more complex
some things scaled up and others scaled down

 

[PaintTinJr]

But isn't BCPack wasteful if it's already lossy? Meaning the game size is the same, yet you use less quality of the actually available data. In a simpler example, it's like watching 4K content on a 1080p-1440p TV/monitor.

As I understand that both have decompressors, which is the most important, isn't compression also important for saving data as well? Do they both have compression functionality inside as well? Thanks.

I'll reply to your comment in reverse points - if that's okay. Standard s3_tc/DXT Block compression can be done pretty well in real-time by the hw acceleration texture units on GPU in terms of mid-gen PS2-PS3 texturing, but to use it most effectively for quality texturing for PS3 onwards, each block of the original image is preferably used to measure signal-to-noise ratio against all (meaningful) permutations of chosen end-points (for the compressed block) in an exhaustive search to find the best fit. IIRC compressing with ATI's 3Dc half float compression isn't such a problem for real-time quality but I'm not sure if that's part of BCpack.

As for the first point, it isn't quite clear for UE5 type stuff, but my general comment would be, that I expect xbox to get a benefit with Bcpack on any traditional renderer (like this gen's games) where surfaces are directly lit and discontinuity noise won't be part of some intricate shader or compute calculation. My hunch about UE5 demo is that if it is async compute software rendering as tweets have said then BCpack hw acceleration wouldn't be usable without damaging the work scheduling of the async workload - as it would make compute dependent on the 3D pipeline, when the intention of async is to let tasks on compute, 3D pipeline and DMA transfers from disk intersplice harmoniously in the latency gaps of each of the other tasks to latency hide while sharing the hw resources.

Thinking about the async, we may find that the IO complex and SSD on the PS5 might be critical in just providing more time slice options to deliver data (at convenient opportunities) to keep the other two (compute/3D) working on time, as async compute is (AFAIK) is highly dependent on CPU schedule timing - as latency in the CPU propagates to the GPU async - so offloading IO from the CPU is a double win IMHO for async.

 

[Knitted Knight]

That doesn't say anything else than they've been working closely with Sony on the development of the demo, which makes absolute sense because of the I/O capabilities of the PS5 and how important that apparently is for the new UE5 tech. What I don't quite agree with is this conspiracy stuff that Sony is paying a lot of money to Epic so they don't say that the demo works equally or better on the Series X. Tim has said that this tech will look awesome on both consoles, and the main reason why they focused on talking about the PS5 is because, well, the demo was running on a PS5.

That's the point. There is no secret marketing deal. Collaboration =/= being bought out.

 

[chilichote]

Not really sure why it matters that Epic chose the PS5 to show their engine demo on. They've already said that it will also run on XSX just as good, so why does it matter?

They never said "just as good". Sweeney said, it will be awesome on both.

 

[Rusco Da Vino]

And also:

But ok, you two can keep believing what has been shown was only possible on PS5. Without knowing anything about the demo itself technically, like for example the asset size that is being loaded in every frame. Don't stop believin'.

Again using a journalist quote/thinking to pass it as an Epic Games statement?

And using a tweet where Sweneey did not say shit about how the demo would run on the Series X?

Same fucking BS 24/7?

 

[azertydu91]

Yeah because there's such a big difference between "runs on XSX just as good" and "awesome on both".

Well yeah english isn't my native language and it seems obvious even to me.For example a movie can be awesome on a 8k TV and on a shitty CRT too.Because there's is no inherent comparison in what was said.It's like saying a ford fiesta and a tesla S are awesome cars(it doesn't mention which is the fastest, or can drive further or has better acceleration).

Those are not subtle semantic tricks just different sentences that you chose to interpret as comparison.

And in that case I'm not saying that xbox is the ford fiesta or anything just showing how it is absolutely not a comparison.

Nobody here have doubts that Unreal 5 will run perfectly on xbox. just that this demo may need to be sclaed down to match the I/o of the xbox which is about 50% than that of the ps5.
Just like xbox may run this demo at 18% more pixel or framerate(even though pixel would be more adequate)

 

[quest]

I actually agree with what you say and I think it reinforces my point, Sony basically didn't need to do anything more than let that demo happen on their system to strike a blow. Nothing more.

And keep demos on console exclusive this year which looks like happened with wait till next year. There is nothing Microsoft could ever do to respond to this that is why it was brilliant. Sony can sit back watch and watch the damage be done with little money spent or just their games exclusive to the epic store when on PC. Small price to keep the current sales split which this demo did it ended any chance Microsoft had at gaining market share. Best marketing since the PS2 days.

 

[The Shift]

And also:

But ok, you two can keep believing what has been shown was only possible on PS5. Without knowing anything about the demo itself technically, like for example the asset size that is being loaded in every frame. Don't stop believin'.

It's physically impossible for the SX to run that demo at the same fidelity. The I/O Complex in the PS5 is massively more performant than the MS solution. Microsoft looked at high end PC's as a reference for the SX. Sony looked at something beyond Hollywood level render farms for PS5.

I sort of agree with the Dreamcast poke above - I think they would be extremely lucky to sell 15 million units by the end of 2 years on the market.

Cool by me - then they can come back exclusively to PC full time

 

[Rusco Da Vino]

They never said "just as good". Sweeney said, it will be awesome on both.

He did not say that "awesome on both" about the UE5/PS5 demo but the Nanite and Lumen tech.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Yeah because there's such a big difference between "runs on XSX just as good" and "awesome on both".

One thing is what was said and the other is what you are inferring.

 

[Reficul]

Wow. I got to say that my marketing deal with Epic really paid off.
My tin foil hat company has seen a significant boost after the UE5 demo.

Just to make it clear:
Sony have no such deal! Tim told me..... or did he?

 

[zaitsu]

Yeah because there's such a big difference between "runs on XSX just as good" and "awesome on both".

Well, its not the same for sure. XSX version will be awesome with 18% more pixels and with half of “triangles”

 

[Deleted member 775630]

It's physically impossible for the SX to run that demo at the same fidelity. The I/O Complex in the PS5 is massively more performant than the MS solution. Microsoft looked at high end PC'S as a reference for the SX. Sony looked at something beyond Hollywood level render farms for PS5.

I agree that the SSD of the PS5 is much faster, but you have no idea if this demo could've been run on the XSX exactly the same, because you don't know anything about asset sizes. For all we know this could've easily run on the XSX as well as on a PC with a fast SSD. There's no reason to assume that this was only possible on the PS5.

 

[azertydu91]

I agree that the SSD of the PS5 is much faster, but you have no idea if this demo could've been run on the XSX exactly the same, because you don't know anything about asset sizes. For all we know this could've easily run on the XSX as well as on a PC with a fast SSD. There's no reason to assume that this was only possible on the PS5.

Nothing except the video telling us that some of those things wouldn't be possible without sony's breakthrough.
That's crazy how you put words into Sweeney's mouth but refuse to listen when he explicitly says that it wouldn't be possible on other platforms.

Either you have attention trouble or you really just want to listen what you want to hear.

 

[ANIMAL1975]

I think your understanding is accurate.

The only problem is that multiplat games can’t assume there are 6 priority levels for SSD access. Devs will either ignore those priority levels or include code to make use of them only on the platforms that support them.

Now Cerny did say they would map 6 priorities on to the 2 (that’s how manyhe said off the shelf SSDs have - some people claim they could have 4 priorities) available in 3rd party SSDs for expansion.

Assuming Sony get an algorithm working to do that and it isn’t majorly processor intensive, they might give the source or the algorithm to 3rd parties so they can work with 6 priorities across all platforms regardless of the underlying logical priorities available.

Cerny said that the hardware support covers everything, devs just have to make sure to use the i/o API
Don't you think that it will cover the SSD custom hardware too?

 

[jose4gg]

I seriously want to end this UE5 conversation, if it can run in series X or not, so please, every fan, hear me out. There are two possibles scenarios, considering what Tim, developers, and Engines developers have said about the importance of the SSD and the I/O in order to stream these high-quality assets (textures, models, audio, etc).


A) The Xbox solution is good enough, meaning the current I/O architecture of the Xbox is good enough to run this demo and it has all the I/O requirements to load the assets in 8K just as fast as the PS5. NOW, this would mean that the PS5 architecture, the raw speed advantage, the priority levels, the Kraken decompression hardware, the Coherency engine, all that is unnecessary for this demo, meaning, IF THIS THEORY IS CORRECT, PS5 I/O architecture is a complete waste of money and its overkill.

B) Unreal Engine 5 just like any other engine can scale depending on the hardware is running, meaning if it can do something with 5gb raw speed / it can do other stuff with 2.4, just not as good, but again, NOT BAD, we are talking about a good SSD with a good architecture too. This would mean that any stuff they are doing with the SSD like streaming 8k assets, or big models with millions of triangles will perform better on the better hardware to do so. IF this theory, which is more realistic, is true, that will mean, that the Series X will be able to run this demo, but instead of using 8K textures, maybe will use 4K textures, instead of using models with 10m triangles it will use models with 5millions triangles, so it can compensate the difference in streaming speed of its I/O architecture using "low" quality assets to reduce the amount of data it has to stream.

Now, pick your theory, the one with PS5 I/O being overkill and series X being the perfect fit or the one where the engine scales to the potential available in each console.

 

[FeiRR]

Its down to Sweeny not liking phil now, fucking hilarious.

PRICELESS.

Maybe, just maybe, Ps5 is better for streaming high quality 8K mega assests from SSD.

I can understand why an educated engineer isn't crazy about some salesman with a BA.

 

[Gediminas]

It doesn’t matter because they chose the PS5 to show their engine demo because they made a marketing deal. Some people here acting like Epic was going around trying consoles and was so impressed by the PS5 SSD speed that they chose to make their engine demo for it lol. That’s not how business works.

This is Epic. This is UE. The engine is going to run not only on next-gen consoles but on EVERYTHING.

yes yes, of course

 

[Captain Hero]

It’s happening guys .. finally

 

[The Shift]

I agree that the SSD of the PS5 is much faster, but you have no idea if this demo could've been run on the XSX exactly the same, because you don't know anything about asset sizes. For all we know this could've easily run on the XSX as well as on a PC with a fast SSD. There's no reason to assume that this was only possible on the PS5.

I realise that. There are devs on this site in the XVA thread that will supply more details regarding the I/O difference. It's just a set of decisions each hardware vendor made. Microsoft chose to chase high resolution and framerates. Sony chose extreme I/O throughput and Hollywood asset quality. Sony's solution will enable games that are not possible on hardware that doesn't feature specifications the same or better than what resides within the PS5's I/O Complex.

 

[ThisIsMyDog]

It’s happening guys .. finally

Its "happening" for like 4 months now.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

I realise that. There are devs on this site in the XVA thread that will supply more details regarding the I/O difference. It's just a set of decisions each hardware vendor made. Microsoft chose to chase high resolution and framerates. Sony chose extreme I/O throughput and Hollywood asset quality. Sony's solution will enable games that are not possible on hardware that doesn't feature specifications the same or better than what resides within the PS5's I/O Complex.

I'm not so sure about that, but we'll notice once the games arrive. June and July events can't come soon enough to show us actual games. Will put this discussion based on not enough information to rest.

 

[Captain Hero]

Its "happening" for like 4 months now.

This is my first time saying it .. and just look at PS5 website

 

[I Love Rock 'n' Roll]

The MegaCast is coming!!!!!!
15TFLPS, zen 3, 25 of RAM, SDD 2x faster than PS5. It's coming with Daytona USA 8k120fps, Sonic & Knuckles 2, Yakuza the 8k collection, Virtua Fighters 6, GTA 6 exclusive for 3 years.

 

[geordiemp]

I agree that the SSD of the PS5 is much faster, but you have no idea if this demo could've been run on the XSX exactly the same, because you don't know anything about asset sizes. For all we know this could've easily run on the XSX as well as on a PC with a fast SSD. There's no reason to assume that this was only possible on the PS5.

I am sure that demo will run on XSX, but probably not at that asset quality and 1440p30, it will be less either in detail or triangles or some compromise for more latent I/O. Its not just about TF, but that is just my opinion and I am sure the new reality is creeping home eventually unles you have been living under a rock.

The only evidence we have of XSX I/O is resuming current gen games of approx 5 GB RAM usage in 5 seconds, and that was last month or so and was with all current hardware on the XSX.

So was that resume using BCPack and VRS and SFS and SFS + and velocity architecture ? What do you think ?

The resume demo was on an XSX, so the hardware was all in place. Cant change that now.

Either way, slower I/O or API not ready last month, take your pick, what do you think it is ?

Summary : UE5 will run on Xb1 and Ps4, that demo at that resolution will not. XSX is unknown, but what we have seen so far in I/O capability demo by MS last month its clear XSX is not performant yet. Will it be, who knows ?

Ps5 will be the more powerful console when streaming higb definition assets like crazy, XSX will perform better at more regular rendering techniques / lower assets with ray tracing.

Its a fair balance.

 

[ThisIsMyDog]

This is my first time saying it .. and just look at PS5 website

I don't know, still looks the same like always.

 

[FranXico]

Yeah because there's such a big difference between "runs on XSX just as good" and "awesome on both".

A while back, Todd Howard also said "Skyrim looks awesome on the PS3 too" and sure enough, the PS3 did run Skyrim...

 

[mitchman]

It doesn’t matter because they chose the PS5 to show their engine demo because they made a marketing deal. Some people here acting like Epic was going around trying consoles and was so impressed by the PS5 SSD speed that they chose to make their engine demo for it lol. That’s not how business works.

This is Epic. This is UE. The engine is going to run not only on next-gen consoles but on EVERYTHING.

Epic already said there was no secret marketing deal in play here, who are you to claim otherwise? Show some evidence.

 

[Audiophile]

This is awesome!!! One thing, on the God of War box, you wrote "Ghost of Tsushima" instead of "God of War". Just a heads up. Been loving these.

Thanks! Fixed the link in the og post. Rookie copy/paste mistake..

 

[Captain Hero]

I don't know, still looks the same like always.

 

[FranXico]

The MegaCast is coming!!!!!!
15TFLPS, zen 3, 25 of RAM, SDD 2x faster than PS5. It's coming with Daytona USA 8k120fps, Sonic & Knuckles 2, Yakuza the 8k collection, Virtua Fighters 6, GTA 6 exclusive for 3 years.

You're all joking, but if SEGA was back into the race, I'd get their console in a heartbeat.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

I am sure that demo will run on XSX, but probably not at that asset quality and 1440p30, it will be less either in detail or triangles or some compromise for more latent I/O. Its not just about TF, but that is just my opinion and I am sure the new reality is creeping home eventually.

The only evidence we have of XSX I/O is resuming current gen games of approx 5 GB RAM usage in 5 seconds, and that was last month or so and was with all current hardware on the XSX.

So was that resume using BCPack and VRS and SFS and SFS + and velocity architecture ? What do you think ?

The resume demo was on an XSX, so the hardware was all in place. Cant change that now.

Either way, slower I/O or API not ready last month, take your pick, what do you think it is ?

But why do you make the assumption that the demo pushed the PS5 to it's limits? We don't know if that demo would actually need the full 8-9 GB/s compressed speed. Maybe it only used 4? Who knows? Because what we also don't know is that let's say the SSD is able to push 9GB/s of compressed assets constantly. Is it realistic that the GPU is able to render all of this constantly?

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

The MegaCast is coming!!!!!!
15TFLPS, zen 3, 25 of RAM, SDD 2x faster than PS5. It's coming with Daytona USA 8k120fps, Sonic & Knuckles 2, Yakuza the 8k collection, Virtua Fighters 6, GTA 6 exclusive for 3 years.

The Sparkman APU/SoC is the Dreamcast 2!

 

[I Love Rock 'n' Roll]

The Sparkman APU/SoC is the Dreamcast 2!

 

[ResilientBanana]

So now the narrative here is that the UE5 demo was only possible on PS5, even though Sweeny himself stated that it was possible on the PC and XSX? One asset placed in a room multiple times doesn't tell me anything about SSD speeds simply because it's only pulling a single asset. You don't need a very powerful SSD to achieve that.

 

[geordiemp]

But why do you make the assumption that the demo pushed the PS5 to it's limits? We don't know if that demo would actually need the full 8-9 GB/s compressed speed. Maybe it only used 4? Who knows? Because what we also don't know is that let's say the SSD is able to push 9GB/s of compressed assets constantly. Is it realistic that the GPU is able to render all of this constantly?

TF and bandwidth, is that all you know ? Its about latency, cache, LAG per nanoseconds not your max speed.

5 GB in 5 seconds is the speed in real world shown LAST MONTH on XSX current hardware, its like a car around a rally course that can go 150 mph, but its average was 70 mph. Its not about max potential speed / bandwidth.

PS5 could load that 5GB is under a second and did so on spiderman a year ago now.

This is the real world reality for now until MS show something better.

And yes Naughty dog noticed streaming artefacts and commented on twitter, Ps5 SSD was not fast enough for that demo it appears. So XSX will NOT run at that quality no, it has other benefits (standard rendering and Ray tracing).

Dont worry, XSX will win many DF VS on current rendering engines, but wont win em all when high assets come in fast and furious.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

So now the narrative here is that the UE5 demo was only possible on PS5, even though Sweeny himself stated that it was possible on the PC and XSX? One asset placed in a room multiple times doesn't tell me anything about SSD speeds simply because it's only pulling a single asset. You don't need a very powerful SSD to achieve that.

No. It will look great on all platforms as it is a multi-platform engine. In this specific demo it seems to have been shaped around PS5's I/O which is its biggest strength. That's it.

I just want to see Microsoft and Sony first-party games. That is when things get exciting.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Here we go again with PS5 I/O is overkill and Cerny overshot.

Most delicious.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

TF and bandwidth, is that all you know ? Its about latency, cache, LAG per nanoseconds not your max speed.

5 GB in 5 seconds is the speed in real world shown LAST MONTH on XSX current hardware, its like a car around a rally course that can go 150 mph, but its average was 70 mph. Its not about max potential speed / bandwidth.

PS5 could load that 5GB is under a second and did so on spiderman a year ago now.

This is the real world reality for now until MS show something better.

I think you misunderstood, because I didn't want to minimize the potential of PS5 SSD.

I'm wondering if the speed can be used at its fullest, because this would mean you need a lot more data to stream. You need huge assets that you want to show. So this not only means that someone needs to create this in more detail, it also means that games will be larger, right? I'm eager to learn and find out once the games release if we're really going to get much more beautiful and rich world's thanks to this SSD.

 

[The Shift]

So now the narrative here is that the UE5 demo was only possible on PS5, even though Sweeny himself stated that it was possible on the PC and XSX? One asset placed in a room multiple times doesn't tell me anything about SSD speeds simply because it's only pulling a single asset. You don't need a very powerful SSD to achieve that.

Not having millions (billions?) of high detail foliage assets to actually demonstrate the draw distance+LOD system was deflating - I expected a living and breathing Avatar level planetscape to be revealed at the end.

But what did we get? A desert.