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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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chilichote

Member
Has anyone posted this yet?


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="und" dir="ltr"><a href="https://t.co/ctdvPmLVSm">https://t.co/ctdvPmLVSm</a> <a href="https://t.co/h0nTPYxJwR">pic.twitter.com/h0nTPYxJwR</a></p>&mdash; TitleOS (@XB1_HexDecimal) <a href="">June 1, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I can't reasonably link the Twitter link here, but as long as it works somehow...^^
 
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CrysisFreak

Banned
Has anyone posted this yet?


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="und" dir="ltr"><a href="https://t.co/ctdvPmLVSm">https://t.co/ctdvPmLVSm</a> <a href="https://t.co/h0nTPYxJwR">pic.twitter.com/h0nTPYxJwR</a></p>&mdash; TitleOS (@XB1_HexDecimal) <a href="">June 1, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I can't reasonably link the Twitter link here, but as long as it works somehow^^

For fucks sake MS dun goofed congrats on holding the gaming industry back once more. SMH my damn head.
 
D

Deleted member 775630

Unconfirmed Member
For fucks sake MS dun goofed congrats on holding the gaming industry back once more. SMH my damn head.
How exactly? If they replaced the GPU and a smaller SSD there's not really much difference with the XSX. Just scale it back...
 

LED Guy?

Banned
Has anyone posted this yet?


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="und" dir="ltr"><a href="https://t.co/ctdvPmLVSm">https://t.co/ctdvPmLVSm</a> <a href="https://t.co/h0nTPYxJwR">pic.twitter.com/h0nTPYxJwR</a></p>&mdash; TitleOS (@XB1_HexDecimal) <a href="">June 1, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I can't reasonably link the Twitter link here, but as long as it works somehow...^^

Fuck Microsoft and fuck their Xbox Lockhart, for the love of God, what is this piece of crap?!

We really don’t want to hold back the industry like that, graphics like the Unreal 5 demo was running at 1440p in PS5, it will run at 1620p if we scaled with the GPU differences of XSX from PS5’s GPU, if those consoles ran it at those resolution, then what the actual fuck can Xbox Lockhart do?

Run that at 720p? In 2020?! That would be silly. If it sold a lot better than Xbox Series X, then developers will make sure to make games look good on it and run them at 1440p and try to achieve 60FPS more often than not, if they targeted those stated resolutions and FPS then it would hold back the gaming industry in terms of graphics, they won’t go all out on graphics and we won’t see Ray Traced graphics that often so developers will have to be very careful with that even though PS5 and XSX can do that shit a lot.

I legit hope it fails miserably.
 
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Would love an exact quote from the patent file, of "The purpose of the pool of SRAM in the IO Complex--the SRAM I was referring to--is explained further along in the patent documentation." instead of trust me I've read this more than you and thus know it by heart. Put money where your mouth is and show the receipts like I did or I'm unconvinced.

Plus "You've found that the flash controller uses it too" this didn't come second, or later on. I already knew this one AND the one in the main custom chip, but wondered why people were not speculating any uses of SoC SRAM and just assumed, that one as well was known generally and speculated on by-and-large in the past. However it seems I was wrong.

I'm really not into the childish forum gauntlet throw downs, and the only reason I clarified what I meant when you assumed I was unaware of SRAM in the controller is because the discussion on the usage on SRAM in the flash controller and what it's used for and why was a few pages ago and is something I personally wrote a fair bit about, but maybe you weren't involved in the thread during it, which is fair enough. It's impossible to keep up with this place completely.

After discussing how the flash-controller uses SRAM to store a partial (and cleverly optimised and much smaller than typical) mapping table between logical and physical addresses, I then stumbled upon a different mention of SRAM in the patent in a section where it was discussing elements of the IO complex on the main SoC and outside of the flash controller. It's also referred to as "a" pool of SRAM and isn't labelled in any figures, whereas the SRAM on the controller is always referred to as "the" pool of SRAM with a reference immediately following it which indicates its location in the flash controller.

Here's where I postulated what it was being used for based on the patent and Cerny's slides:


Here's the full patent paragraph discussing elements such as the sub-CPU (co-processor) and accelerator (Kraken and other elements):

The sub-CPU 32 divides a file read request issued by the main CPU 30 into read requests for data of a given size, storing the requests in the system memory 14. Thus, in the present embodiment, hardware other than the main CPU 30 handles the major part of data access to the flash memory 20, and the read unit is reduced to a finer one immediately after issuance of a file access request. This allows for parallel access to a plurality of NAND devices, thus providing a high transfer rate. Further, affinity with processing handled by the accelerator 42 such as read data buffering to a built-in SRAM, encryption, and tampering check is enhanced in terms of data size, thus preventing disruption of processing halfway.
Emphasis mine.

The accelerator is what's described as being responsible for decompression and other tasks. It's a logical stand-in for the patent for the actual implementation that uses a Kraken hardware decompressor etc.

The SRAM on the controller is used for caching parts of the mapping table for speedy lookups of the actual physical address, and for a basic ECC check. It is always referred to as "the" SRAM and explicitly labelled.

Considering the entire point of SRAM is bandwidth and latency, there's just no way the accelerator (Kraken decompressor) is doing this over 4 lanes of PCIe and using the flash controllers pool of SRAM that it needs for its own tasks. Sharing both SRAM bandwidth and PCIe bandwidth. It cannot be the case.
It seems as if the IO Complex SRAM is used for read buffering for the Kraken decompressor, decrytion and tampering check, which are parts of the check-in process.

Also the check in process still happens, it's just that the CPU doesn't need to do it or even be aware of it, and it's hardware offloaded by a sub-CPU (one of the co-processors) and the DMAC.

I'm too old for trying to look like some kind of obnoxious bad-ass on an internet forum. I wasn't trying to call you out or anything. It's just that you quoted me to tell me about something I already knew--wasn't really talking about--and had talked about a fair bit a few pages ago.
 
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Naddy

Banned
They’ll just use red sixes quality assets. Easier to do that than bother to i moment RT even.

what does this even mean? Can you form a proper sentence?

Or developer uses ultra assets on ps5, High assets on XSX and PC, low quality Ps4 xb1 HDD.

Both are feasible, depends on the engine and the game type. Spiderman ps4 uses streaming just lower quality assets.

Cut scenes and preloading or hallways is maybe not possible to increase detail so much with 10 GB Graphics memory to play with.

Hence ps5 sony first party could potentially go nuts and nobody will follow, just gaze.

Again, would a third party dev really create assets just for a single platform, that won't be even tag big the first couple of years? I mean how many units will there be sold end of 2021? Maybe 15 million max? PS4 has more than 100 million units sold.
I think its more likely that they will create the same assets for PS5/XSX and call it a day. AAA development is already super expensive.

And I wasn't talking about first party, I was talking about third party games. Well, I think we can at least agree, that this will never happen:

Xbox version comes with exclusive elevators and hallways!!

It's not like XSX is using an HDD or so, it's still using a very fast SSD with great IO. Hopefully we will see the games soon.

For fucks sake MS dun goofed congrats on holding the gaming industry back once more. SMH my damn head.

Fuck Microsoft and fuck their Xbox Lockhart, for the love of God, what is this piece of crap?!

We really don’t want to hold back the industry like that, graphics like the Unreal 5 demo was running at 1440p in PS5, it will run at 1620p if we scaled with the GPU differences of XSX from PS5’s GPU, if those consoles ran it at those resolution, then what the actual fuck can Xbox Lockhart do?

Run that at 720p? In 2020?! That would be silly. If it sold a lot better than Xbox Series X, then developers will make sure to make games look good on it and run them at 1440p and try to achieve 60FPS more often than not, if they targeted those stated resolutions and FPS then it would hold back the gaming industry in terms of graphics, they won’t go all out on graphics and we won’t see Ray Traced graphics that often so developers will have to be very careful with that even though PS5 and XSX can do that shit a lot.

I legit hope it fails miserably.


Isn't XSS basically the same architecture as the other nextgen console and will basically have the same graphical fidelity, just at a lower resolution? Don't know how this would hold back the industry? Basically, it's another PC config, lower res and that's it.

People who buy XSS wont be bothered about low res anyway, it's not like want the best graphics.
they just want the latest games.
 
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SSfox

Member


Lmao this is too gold

EuphoricHomelyAchillestang-size_restricted.gif
 

geordiemp

Member
what does this even mean? Can you form a proper sentence?



Again, would a third party dev really create assets just for a single platform, that won't be even tag big the first couple of years? I mean how many units will there be sold end of 2021? Maybe 15 million max? PS4 has more than 100 million units sold.
I think its more likely that they will create the same assets for PS5/XSX and call it a day. AAA development is already super expensive.

And I wasn't talking about first party, I was talking about third party games. Well, I think we can at least agree, that this will never happen:



It's not like XSX is using an HDD or so, it's still using a very fast SSD with great IO. Hopefully we will see the games soon.



Isn't XSS basically the same architecture as the other nextgen console and will basically have the same graphical fidelity, just at a lower resolution? Don't know how this would hold back the industry? Basically, it's another PC config, lower res and that's it.

Devs create high assets at start and then reduce them down unfortunately, so the starting point is high quality. So it is no extra work, in fact the extra work is reducing them and creating LOds etc (Epic UE5 interview)
 

LED Guy?

Banned
what does this even mean? Can you form a proper sentence?



Again, would a third party dev really create assets just for a single platform, that won't be even tag big the first couple of years? I mean how many units will there be sold end of 2021? Maybe 15 million max? PS4 has more than 100 million units sold.
I think its more likely that they will create the same assets for PS5/XSX and call it a day. AAA development is already super expensive.

And I wasn't talking about first party, I was talking about third party games. Well, I think we can at least agree, that this will never happen:



It's not like XSX is using an HDD or so, it's still using a very fast SSD with great IO. Hopefully we will see the games soon.






Isn't XSS basically the same architecture as the other nextgen console and will basically have the same graphical fidelity, just at a lower resolution? Don't know how this would hold back the industry? Basically, it's another PC config, lower res and that's it.

People who buy XSS wont be bothered about low res anyway, it's not like want the best graphics.
they just want the latest games.
Unless if developers would have to build a base graphical quality regardless of settings, this is a full generation baseline we’re talking about here, I’m sure you ignored the example I have written in my 1st comment about it, read it again and digest what I wrote.
 

TBiddy

Member
Fuck Microsoft and fuck their Xbox Lockhart, for the love of God, what is this piece of crap?!

We really don’t want to hold back the industry like that, graphics like the Unreal 5 demo was running at 1440p in PS5, it will run at 1620p if we scaled with the GPU differences of XSX from PS5’s GPU, if those consoles ran it at those resolution, then what the actual fuck can Xbox Lockhart do?

Run that at 720p? In 2020?! That would be silly. If it sold a lot better than Xbox Series X, then developers will make sure to make games look good on it and run them at 1440p and try to achieve 60FPS more often than not, if they targeted those stated resolutions and FPS then it would hold back the gaming industry in terms of graphics, they won’t go all out on graphics and we won’t see Ray Traced graphics that often so developers will have to be very careful with that even though PS5 and XSX can do that shit a lot.

I legit hope it fails miserably.

God I love the hyperbole on this forum. "Fuck this, fuck that".

Lockhart is not for you, or most other people on this forum, it's for the people who don't give a shit about resolution. They just want to play the newest COD... which they can just fine, if the GPU and the CPU is more or less the same as the XSX.

If you're really concerned about "holding back", you should start whining that the SSD in the XSX is slower and will hold back the PS5, and you should start whining that the GPU in the PS5 is slower and will hold back the XSX... or you could start whining about the Switch, how it presumably held back an entire generation (it didn't).
 
D

Deleted member 775630

Unconfirmed Member
Fuck Microsoft and fuck their Xbox Lockhart, for the love of God, what is this piece of crap?!

We really don’t want to hold back the industry like that, graphics like the Unreal 5 demo was running at 1440p in PS5, it will run at 1620p if we scaled with the GPU differences of XSX from PS5’s GPU, if those consoles ran it at those resolution, then what the actual fuck can Xbox Lockhart do?

Run that at 720p? In 2020?! That would be silly. If it sold a lot better than Xbox Series X, then developers will make sure to make games look good on it and run them at 1440p and try to achieve 60FPS more often than not, if they targeted those stated resolutions and FPS then it would hold back the gaming industry in terms of graphics, they won’t go all out on graphics and we won’t see Ray Traced graphics that often so developers will have to be very careful with that even though PS5 and XSX can do that shit a lot.

I legit hope it fails miserably.
Xbox Lockhart was always said to be targeting 1080p, not sure how that will "hold back" the gaming industry or your experience on the PS5.
 

LED Guy?

Banned
God I love the hyperbole on this forum. "Fuck this, fuck that".

Lockhart is not for you, or most other people on this forum, it's for the people who don't give a shit about resolution. They just want to play the newest COD... which they can just fine, if the GPU and the CPU is more or less the same as the XSX.

If you're really concerned about "holding back", you should start whining that the SSD in the XSX is slower and will hold back the PS5, and you should start whining that the GPU in the PS5 is slower and will hold back the XSX... or you could start whining about the Switch, how it presumably held back an entire generation (it didn't).
Yeah we talked about the SSD differences between XSX & PS5, and we whined about it, but the differences here between PS5/XSX and Lockhart in GPU is HUGE, graphics would have to be held back a lot, you are actually agreeing with me here.

No one whined for GPU differences between XSX & PS5 because it is actually very small, way smaller than the differences between Xbox One & PS4 GPUs, all I’m saying is with the example I have provided with my 1st comment, read it please before replying like that.
 
D

Deleted member 775630

Unconfirmed Member
Yeah we talked about the SSD differences between XSX & PS5, and we whined about it, but the differences here between PS5/XSX and Lockhart in GPU is HUGE, graphics would have to be held back a lot, you are actually agreeing with me here.

No one whined for GPU differences between XSX & PS5 because it is actually very small, way smaller than the differences between Xbox One & PS4 GPUs, all I’m saying is with the example I have provided with my 1st comment, read it please before replying like that.
Just reduce the resolution to 1080p, what the target is of Lockhart. To put it very, very simple. PS5 and XSX will run games in native 4K (8mil pixels), the XSX will run them in 1080p (2mil pixels), that 4x times as less. Lockhart was rumoured to have a 4TF RDNA2 GPU. So it's more than enough to give 1080p output.
 
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God I love the hyperbole on this forum. "Fuck this, fuck that".

Lockhart is not for you, or most other people on this forum, it's for the people who don't give a shit about resolution. They just want to play the newest COD... which they can just fine, if the GPU and the CPU is more or less the same as the XSX.

If you're really concerned about "holding back", you should start whining that the SSD in the XSX is slower and will hold back the PS5, and you should start whining that the GPU in the PS5 is slower and will hold back the XSX... or you could start whining about the Switch, how it presumably held back an entire generation (it didn't).

Also if it's a 1080P console and uses a 720P buffer to intelligently upscale to 1080P with the same image quality the UE5 demo showed, I don't see how that's any worse than UE5 being 1440P instead of brute-force native 4K? Which neither next-gen console would be capable of, for that matter.
 

SSfox

Member
Fuck Microsoft and fuck their Xbox Lockhart, for the love of God, what is this piece of crap?!

We really don’t want to hold back the industry like that, graphics like the Unreal 5 demo was running at 1440p in PS5, it will run at 1620p if we scaled with the GPU differences of XSX from PS5’s GPU, if those consoles ran it at those resolution, then what the actual fuck can Xbox Lockhart do?

Run that at 720p? In 2020?! That would be silly. If it sold a lot better than Xbox Series X, then developers will make sure to make games look good on it and run them at 1440p and try to achieve 60FPS more often than not, if they targeted those stated resolutions and FPS then it would hold back the gaming industry in terms of graphics, they won’t go all out on graphics and we won’t see Ray Traced graphics that often so developers will have to be very careful with that even though PS5 and XSX can do that shit a lot.

I legit hope it fails miserably.

Gamers: Please Microsoft make some games

Microsoft: Ok we're gonna make more consoles

6d194e950e9da284c712bcba97690ac6.jpg
 

splattered

Member
Devs create high assets at start and then reduce them down unfortunately, so the starting point is high quality. So it is no extra work, in fact the extra work is reducing them and creating LOds etc (Epic UE5 interview)

Didn't epic basically admit that the 8k assets used in the demo were just for demonstration and that for real world game scenarios we would mostly see 4k assets?

If that's the case, you can expect both PS5 and XsX to use 4k/Ultra assets and then the minor differences may come down to loading time in favor of PS5 and frame rate and resolution in favor of XsX.

Maybe after a few years and the tools are super dialed in we will start to see more 8k assets being used on the ps5 but i wouldn't expect it for a while. That being said Sony Studio's art styles are absolutely gorgeous and it won't matter for exclusives cause they'll still be jaw dropping visually either way.
 

LED Guy?

Banned
Xbox Lockhart was always said to be targeting 1080p, not sure how that will "hold back" the gaming industry or your experience on the PS5.
The example I have provided, read it, that Unreal 5 shit won’t be able to run at 1080p on Lockhart, it would 720p or something along those lines, so 720p in 2020 till 2026/2027 no one would want that, developers would have to hold back some of the heavy stuff in order for Lockhart to look and run good at good resolutions, because of you saw what PS5 & XSX can really do, then Lockhart would be so downgraded to the point it feels like another game in terms of graphics so I don’t think developers would make it appear like that, so this would result in an overall downgraded graphical baseline for games.

Come on, man, don’t defend this shit, I know you’re very excited for your Xbox Series X, only to be held back by a weaker console? Come on man, stop defending Microsoft, you KNOW what I said is the truth.
 

geordiemp

Member
Didn't epic basically admit that the 8k assets used in the demo were just for demonstration and that for real world game scenarios we would mostly see 4k assets?

If that's the case, you can expect both PS5 and XsX to use 4k/Ultra assets and then the minor differences may come down to loading time in favor of PS5 and frame rate and resolution in favor of XsX.

Maybe after a few years and the tools are super dialed in we will start to see more 8k assets being used on the ps5 but i wouldn't expect it for a while. That being said Sony Studio's art styles are absolutely gorgeous and it won't matter for exclusives cause they'll still be jaw dropping visually either way.

Half there but no. If you can stream 8K assets in 32 ms (30 FPS) window for rendering per frame, then to do 16 ms (60 FPS) you can use lower quality assets but you have much less time to do it all (half).

Still in ps5 favour streaming assets every 16 ms will require even less latency and faster SSD :messenger_beaming:

Maybe Ps5 will get high assets and 60 FPS and XSX high assets at 30 FPS
 
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LED Guy?

Banned
Gamers: Please Microsoft make some games

Microsoft: Ok we're gonna make more consoles

6d194e950e9da284c712bcba97690ac6.jpg
Yeah exactly, it’s so upsetting to see them do stuff like that, this is why Microsoft will not learn and would just do dumb mistakes to want to sell better than or get close to PS5 sales, by releasing a console that would fuck up the baseline for a whole generation.

I thought Phil Spencer said that they’re competing with Google & Amazon? Yet they’re competing with Sony more than ever, hypocrisy.
 
D

Deleted member 775630

Unconfirmed Member
The example I have provided, read it, that Unreal 5 shit won’t be able to run at 1080p on Lockhart, it would 720p or something along those lines, so 720p in 2020 till 2026/2027 no one would want that, developers would have to hold back some of the heavy stuff in order for Lockhart to look and run good at good resolutions, because of you saw what PS5 & XSX can really do, then Lockhart would be so downgraded to the point it feels like another game in terms of graphics so I don’t think developers would make it appear like that, so this would result in an overall downgraded graphical baseline for games.

Come on, man, don’t defend this shit, I know you’re very excited for your Xbox Series X, only to be held back by a weaker console? Come on man, stop defending Microsoft, you KNOW what I said is the truth.
Like I said before, Lockhart has no issues with running games in 1080p, if the PS5 is able to run a game in native 4K. Lockhart is not made for you, it's for people that don't have a 4K tv, or don't care that much about graphics. It's not holding anything back. So unless you want to explain in detail how it will hold back the gaming industry, stop spreading FUD.
 
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LED Guy?

Banned
Just reduce the resolution to 1080p, what the target is of Lockhart. To put it very, very simple. PS5 and XSX will run games in native 4K (8mil pixels), the XSX will run them in 1080p (2mil pixels), that 4x times as less. Lockhart was rumoured to have a 4TF RDNA2 GPU. So it's more than enough to give 1080p output.
Reducing the resolution to 1080p would still hold back the games that are ambitious graphically, that Unreal 5 demo running at 1440p on PS5’s 10.3 TF GPU, that shit wouldn’t run at 1080p on a 4 TF GPU.

So what would they do? They will hold back the graphical baseline for that demo in order to run that demo properly at 1080p on Lockhart, then the PS5 will just brute force whatever comes out of Lockhart at higher resolution, rather than being built on it completely, you get what I’m saying?
 
Yeah exactly, it’s so upsetting to see them do stuff like that, this is why Microsoft will not learn and would just do dumb mistakes to want to sell better than or get close to PS5 sales, by releasing a console that would fuck up the baseline for a whole generation.

I thought Phil Spencer said that they’re competing with Google & Amazon? Yet they’re competing with Sony more than ever, hypocrisy.

To be fair Sony is investing in cloud gaming, too. Hopefully just to not potentially be left behind in case the casuals start taking to it.
Sadly, the market is driven by casuals, and not all us weirdos that care about the hardware and spend hours on here waiting for a nugget of new information.

If Google or Amazon can start offering the latest COD and FIFA for a few dollars per month in a kind of Netflix model, the casuals might hoover it up. They won't even notice the input latency, just as most of them won't even be running in any game mode on their TVs and are oblivious to the 60-80ms of image processing latency going on as they're unthinkingly trying to strafe aim to deal with it.
And to a casual or kid, a few dollars per month is tractable where $80-90 for the latest COD and season pass just isn't.

Sony and Microsoft could offer the same kind of subscription on console, but it will always cost them more to do it.
It's expensive to develop consumer products that work in different environments and that need to have warranties and meet certain safety regulations etc. Not to mention looking good and being generally premium.

It's much cheaper to sling another load of chips into a rack in an environmentally controlled room and never have to deal with the general public with returns etc.

I'll say it again. I want Microsoft and XSX to do extremely well this generation. I don't want Microsoft to pull out of consumer games machines and move to a much cheaper cloud offering.
I want game processing to stay local and be responsive. I'm scared of cloud gaming because how responsive your game is will depend on time of day, who's doing what in your house, and where you live in relation to a data-centre.
If enough casuals go for cloud gaming we're all fucked, and I'll go back to primarily PC gaming somehow.
 

ANIMAL1975

Member
Marketing campaigns for Christmas in Portugal cover a period from late October all the way to December. It is pretty much equivalent to the American "Holiday season" and very much a part of Portuguese culture.

Source: eu nasci e vivi em Portugal até aos 23 anos.
Marketing campaigns, yes, but "Christmas" is strictly related to December, especially because of our "Christmas Bonus" payment.

Source: Eu sou Português e vivi até aos 26 em Portugal.
And we start the house decorating in the beginning of November
Translation: um gajo faz o pinheirinho no início de Novembro, que é quando começa o período de festividades, como o FranXico disse. Abraço irmãos imigrantes 🤗
 
D

Deleted member 775630

Unconfirmed Member
Reducing the resolution to 1080p would still hold back the games that are ambitious graphically, that Unreal 5 demo running at 1440p on PS5’s 10.3 TF GPU, that shit wouldn’t run at 1080p on a 4 TF GPU.

So what would they do? They will hold back the graphical baseline for that demo in order to run that demo properly at 1080p on Lockhart, then the PS5 will just brute force whatever comes out of Lockhart at higher resolution, rather than being built on it completely, you get what I’m saying?
It's a demo... Do you think there will be a lot of games on the PS5 that will run at 1440p instead of native 4K? Also that's not how game development works. It's top down. Start with all the bells and whistles, and then scale it down for weaker devices.
 

SSfox

Member
Yeah exactly, it’s so upsetting to see them do stuff like that, this is why Microsoft will not learn and would just do dumb mistakes to want to sell better than or get close to PS5 sales, by releasing a console that would fuck up the baseline for a whole generation.

I thought Phil Spencer said that they’re competing with Google & Amazon? Yet they’re competing with Sony more than ever, hypocrisy.

Microsoft wants "Everything", that's the truth, it's like those big US companies like Disney that just want Maximum monopolizing.

And the most shocking thing of all this, is that they want that everything with the ultra minimum efforts.
 
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Shmunter

Member
It's a demo... Do you think there will be a lot of games on the PS5 that will run at 1440p instead of native 4K? Also that's not how game development works. It's top down. Start with all the bells and whistles, and then scale it down for weaker devices.
Personally hope native 4K goes away and smart upscaling techniques become universal. That saved power would be better used for higher fidelity compositions.

Also regarding scaling and game development, starting high and scaling down is only applicable to asset quality. Core gameplay and more advanced uses of computing power are most definitely bottom up.
 

Neo Blaster

Member
I'm inclined to say this as well. I wouldn't be surprised to see an earlier launch, but these are very tumultuous times, both socially and economically.

It makes you wonder if they really will indeed be $500, because that is a big chunk of change no matter what, but far moreso in the worst recession in a long time.

I also expect both to be very limited quantities. But the way 2020 has gone, I wouldn't be surprised if more unfortunate events occur that causes(or forces) them both to slip into 2021. Sometimes, I just think that's a wiser move. This year has been rough 6 months in AND its an election year also.
Ok, to think an election in a single country is something that could delay a worldwide consumer product release is to blow everything out of proportion.
 

geordiemp

Member
It's a demo... Do you think there will be a lot of games on the PS5 that will run at 1440p instead of native 4K? Also that's not how game development works. It's top down. Start with all the bells and whistles, and then scale it down for weaker devices.

IF the lockart has the same SSD and IO as the XSX, then streaming lower quality assets will be easier for Lockart than XSX and PC.

Perversely it would be more difficult on XSX as that would need high qualty assets.

It's a demo... Do you think there will be a lot of games on the PS5 that will run at 1440p instead of native 4K? Also that's not how game development works. It's top down. Start with all the bells and whistles, and then scale it down for weaker devices.

Hope so, 1440p upscaled temporal to 4K looked better than all current pC games in native 4K, so its about quality of image >>> native resolution.

I and probably everyone else learnt that lesson a few weeks ago - changed perceptions.
 
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I'm really not into the childish forum gauntlet throw downs, and the only reason I clarified what I meant when you assumed I was unaware of SRAM in the controller is because the discussion on the usage on SRAM in the flash controller and what it's used for and why was a few pages ago and is something I personally wrote a fair bit about, but maybe you weren't involved in the thread during it, which is fair enough. It's impossible to keep up with this place completely.

After discussing how the flash-controller uses SRAM to store a partial (and cleverly optimised and much smaller than typical) mapping table between logical and physical addresses, I then stumbled upon a different mention of SRAM in the patent in a section where it was discussing elements of the IO complex on the main SoC and outside of the flash controller. It's also referred to as "a" pool of SRAM and isn't labelled in any figures, whereas the SRAM on the controller is always referred to as "the" pool of SRAM with a reference immediately following it which indicates its location in the flash controller.

Here's where I postulated what it was being used for based on the patent and Cerny's slides:

OK fair enough I wasn't around the forum during that discussion. The SRAM on SoC can be used as it is described here, if indeed the distinction between 'a' and 'the' actually means what you postulated it means, it can be a homogenous pool across PCIe lanes that acts as security check and hazard check if they are set up as concurrent clones of each other.

Here's the full patent paragraph discussing elements such as the sub-CPU (co-processor) and accelerator (Kraken and other elements):

The accelerator is what's described as being responsible for decompression and other tasks. It's a logical stand-in for the patent for the actual implementation that uses a Kraken hardware decompressor etc.

The SRAM on the controller is used for caching parts of the mapping table for speedy lookups of the actual physical address, and for a basic ECC check. It is always referred to as "the" SRAM and explicitly labelled.

Considering the entire point of SRAM is bandwidth and latency, there's just no way the accelerator (Kraken decompressor) is doing this over 4 lanes of PCIe and using the flash controllers pool of SRAM that it needs for its own tasks.

I'm too old for trying to look like some kind of obnoxious bad-ass on an internet forum. I wasn't trying to call you out or anything. It's just that you quoted me to tell me about something I already knew--wasn't really talking about--and had talked about a fair bit a few pages ago.
The part emphasized might be correct in some way like making sure the memory pointers truly points to the same assets all around the homogenous memory pool but you are underestimating 4 lanes of PCIe BW if the destination is system RAM pool, which means the loading of assets for to be used by the GPU for streaming purposes; however, what I was mainly talking about was calculations done right on the SoC for example sound occlusion and necessary ray march for it and also BVH traversal and it's path tracing, which are all BW hungry and SRAM that is embedded on SoC itself is the perfect fit for it. These all depend on the size of each SRAM which we don't know anything about right now, and if they are concurrently updated for checking in reasons, and if they can be used for multiple and separate purposes so we are also not sure if one of it is general purpose or not, it is all speculation at this point. The patent can be read as you said but 'a' and 'the' distinction didn't convince me enough if it is correct or if it is the only use case.
 
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Deleted member 775630

Unconfirmed Member
Also regarding scaling and game development, starting high and scaling down is only applicable to asset quality. Core gameplay and more advanced uses of computing power are most definitely bottom up.
I agree, but this is only about asset quality, because we expect that Lockhart will have the same CPU and SSD (maybe smaller one). So that should be fine really.
 

geordiemp

Member
I agree, but this is only about asset quality, because we expect that Lockhart will have the same CPU and SSD (maybe smaller one). So that should be fine really.

I agree, Lockart is not a problem if it has same CPU / same SSD and IO it will not hold anything back.

Streaming higher assets to XSX and PC for 4k will be more demanding, especially each frame at 60 FPS.
 

SSfox

Member
Personally hope native 4K goes away and smart upscaling techniques become universal. That saved power would be better used for higher fidelity compositions.

Also regarding scaling and game development, starting high and scaling down is only applicable to asset quality. Core gameplay and more advanced uses of computing power are most definitely bottom up.

Yass please, more fps and less res.
 
D

Deleted member 775630

Unconfirmed Member
I agree, Lockart is not a problem if it has same CPU / same SSD and IO it will not hold anything back.

Streaming higher assets to XSX and PC for 4k will be more demanding, especially each frame at 60 FPS.
Yeah indeed, but then again I would be surprised if Lockhart has the same CPU and SSD. Is the GPU by far the biggest cost of a console? Because if they want to be able to sell it for $300, which I think would be the sweetspot, I think they might need some other stuff cut back too. But I don't really know much about each components cost.
 

SSfox

Member
I have a better ideia: Give players option.

That would be good, but dunno if it's realistic, it may mean more extra work for dev. Extra work that wouldn't be that necessary (but i'm not dev, so not 100% sure about this aspect)
 
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chilichote

Member
Yeah indeed, but then again I would be surprised if Lockhart has the same CPU and SSD. Is the GPU by far the biggest cost of a console? Because if they want to be able to sell it for $300, which I think would be the sweetspot, I think they might need some other stuff cut back too. But I don't really know much about each components cost.

Smaller Die, smaller SSD, less RAM; maybe that's enough to bring down the cost.
 

geordiemp

Member
Yeah indeed, but then again I would be surprised if Lockhart has the same CPU and SSD. Is the GPU by far the biggest cost of a console? Because if they want to be able to sell it for $300, which I think would be the sweetspot, I think they might need some other stuff cut back too. But I don't really know much about each components cost.

Even if MS cut the size of the SSD, it will likely use same IO and file system and be same speed (who knows)

Just cutting down GPU I see as no big deal for normal rendered games. I have no grudge against Lockart concept.

That UE5 was not normal, traingles per pixel at 1440p so who knows how that would scale lol. I am hoping at lower 4K assets we would get 60 fps and we are good... Epic were just showing off after all.

We usually game on ps4pro, but my son also has friends on XBOX we we also have an xbox for division and that tom clancy game he plays, so for his bedroom why not ?
 
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Fake

Member
That would be good, but dunno it's realistic, it may mean more extra work for dev. Extra work that wouldn't be that necessary (but i'm not dev, so not 100% sure about this aspect)

They already having a extra working for doing a lot of stuff (ports, remaster, cap, multiplayer, releasing patchs, dlc, switch port), so in the end not make much sense. Playing the singleplayer at the max quality possible is good for PR the game, while giving an agressive method of increase FPS in multiplayer is very good as well. When people praise the game, the game sell more.
 
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