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[3liteDragon]

L4 cache is the embedded SRAM on the SoC. Most people probably overlooked this bit, or simply do not know what it means, but it is a static RAM that is closer to SoC than the main system 16GB GDDR6 RAM (and thus has even less latency, perfect for streaming related stuff). Don't know its size however I can speculate it is around 32-64MB. You guys probably still remember Xbox One's 32MB eSRAM that was right on the chip which was made to close the gap for their use of DDR3 RAM as main system memory instead of GDDR5. This time however, PS5 has plentiful main system RAM with good BW and really (REALLY) high bandwidth NAND chips for storage, so it is hard for me to say PS5's usage of eSRAM as it doesn't need it to increase BW but a special purpose. It takes up precious die space so the reason of its existence must be really important but don't know why people simply overlooked it. I thought it was a well known feature of PS5, certainly since it was really badly implemented in Xbox One as a stop gap for their glaring BW deficit.

Well I can speculate a few use cases:
First, Tempest Audio is configured as RAMless DMA engine so if it requires memory pointers, SRAM is closest and probably one with least latency being on the same chip.

Second, is still related to Tempest however not for audio solution for PS5 games but for BC. I think TE which is described as SPU like chip can behave like CELL for PS3, RSX is GPU portion with its own GDDR6 RAM, however you guys must remember PS3 had split memory configuration where it's GPU - RSX had its own memory and its CPU - CELL also had its own, well you guessed it; this SRAM can be the on chip CPU RAM that it needs for a PS3 BC if there was any plan of doing it. Unified memory probably would not work in hardware BC where the original console had split config. so partially it makes sense, ofc this is speculation.

Third, and this is the most possible among these, related to SFS it holds the most current virtual asset IDs for better utilization of the RAM pool and keeps from unnecessarily streaming from SSD, it is most likely that these work in tandem with new caches placed in the GPU and the scrubbers that work to partially evict these caches once they are invalidated from the list resident and live updating in the SRAM.

I’m not sure I understand this because I read a brief explanation on ResetEra of the patent that Cerny’s SSD and I/O implementation are based off of and it sounded like the SRAM pool on the main custom chip only serves one purpose that’s related to file I/O. I may be wrong on this but here’s the link to the thread:

PS5 - a patent dive into what might be the tech behind Sony's SSD customisations (technical!)

This will be one for people interested in some potentially more technical speculation. I posted in the next-gen speculation thread, but was encouraged to spin it off into its own thread. I did some patent diving to see if I could dig up any likely candidates for what Sony's SSD solution might...

www.resetera.com

SRAM instead of DRAM inside the SSD for lower latency and higher throughput access between the flash memory controller and the address lookup data. The patent proposes using a coarser granularity of data access for data that is written once, and not re-written - e.g. game install data. This larger block size can allow for address lookup tables as small as 32KB, instead of 1GB. Data read by the memory controller can also be buffered in SRAM for ECC checks instead of DRAM (because of changes made further up the stack, described later). The patent also notes that by ditching DRAM, reduced complexity and cost may be possible, and cost will scale better with larger SSDs that would otherwise need e.g. 2GB of DRAM for 2TB of storage, and so on.

When a read request is made by the main CPU, it sends it to the secondary CPU, which splits the request into a larger number of small data accesses. It does this for two reasons - to maximise parallel use of the NAND devices and channels (the 'expanded read unit'), and to make blocks small enough to be buffered and checked inside the SSD SRAM. The metadata the secondary CPU needs to traverse is much simpler (and thus faster to process) than under a typical virtual file system.

The NAND memory controller can be flexible about what granularity of data it uses - for data requests send through the File Archive API, it uses granularities that allow the address lookup table to be stored entirely in SRAM for minimal bottlenecking. Other granularities can be used for data that needs to be rewritten more often - user save data for example. In these cases, the SRAM partially caches the lookup tables.

When the SSD has checked its retrieved data, it's sent from SSD SRAM to kernel memory in the system RAM. The hardware accelerator then uses a DMAC to read that data, do its processing, and then write it back to user memory in system RAM. The coordination of this happens with signals between the components, and not involving the main CPU. The main CPU is then finally signalled when data is ready, but is uninvolved until that point.

 

[cerealbuster]

they are writing : "Christmas 2020" in norwegian playstation page.

Well isn't that obvious, if the console releases this year it will be before Black Friday and definetly before christmas. And they said multiple times it will release this year.

 

[Neo Blaster]

Not sure how true this is but it won’t surprise me.

Unfortunately they'll take the less time/resource consuming route: parity.

 

[joshcrispy]

Ok so the rumor was originally started by Eastmen on b3d. Then blue said that what he said is true plus he has sources within Microsoft confirming the opposite.

General Next Generation Rumors and Discussions [Post GDC 2020]

Sort of a variable target though. If you are looking for the cream of the crop chip and not getting as many, you're bound to have poorer yields than a lower binned chip. Sony wouldn't be aiming for cream of the crop, this would be crazy expensive because you're literally binning everything...

forum.beyond3d.com

In my opinion neither of the two are reliable sources of information plus it just seems like discord FUD to me. Especially since some suspect that Eastmen is Colteastwoods account on b3d and we know blue is a follower of Mr X.

dont take blue seriously, he has no idea what hes talking about and more than one youtuber has called him out.

 

[B_Boss]

That purely depends on the narrative that one company is pushing. We still have to wait for games.

“Revolutionary and inspired”.......from what we know about the console so far, I’d say that not only is his tweet certainly aging well but that one can argue just from a factually technical basis that the console is revolutionary and inspired. You could even merely compare the PS5 to its own console family (no Nintendo, MS or Sega necessary) and still conclude what Pessino has .

 

[Deleted member 775630]

“Revolutionary and inspired”.......from what we know about the console so far, I’d say that not only is his tweet certainly aging well but that one can argue just from a factually technical basis that the console is revolutionary and inspired. You could even merely compare the PS5 to its own console family (no Nintendo, MS or Sega necessary) and still conclude what Pessino has .

Well what we know so far is that at first no one would believe next-gen consoles would have a 12TF GPU. That was followed by Sony showing the tech behind their amazingly fast SSD. On one side they say it changes the game, on the other side they say it won't be that much of a difference, in both cases (GPU/SSD). Fans just quote whatever fits their narrative, and we still haven't seen actual games.

 

[Killer Sakoman]

Given the reception the UE5 demo has had since it was shown, and the impact it has had on the retrospective perception of the Road to PS5 talk, and the shuffling of notions about PC specs to exceed the PS5 IO complex, I'm now wondering if Playstation are considering doubling the GDDR6 memory for the PS5 - even if it would commit them to a PS3 £650 price for 12-18months.

My thinking is, people are loving the the idea of nanite and lumens in PS5 games, and feel that the hardware is near perfection for next-gen - with the only real PS5 fan concern being price for the wider market if the BOM is already less than ideal.
Given the legs an extra 16GB of the GDDR6 would give to UE5 on PS5 and offset rapid changes in RT on GPUs over the gen , 32GB of GDDR6 (IMHO) would genuinely justify a £650 launch price for a PS5 and potentially remove the need to subsides it for the first 10M buyers(if like me they are now buying regradless of price)...so potentially working out cheaper than a lesser BOM for 16GB that then needed a £100 subsidy for those first 10M sales.

It would also put the Xbox in a tricky position as upping the memory on the XsX to appear to compete wouldn't be so straight forward (AFAIK) and just end up being a BOM issue and increase the need for XsS.

They better increase bandwidth than increasing RAM size. Higher bandwidth may help with RayTracing as Cerny pointed out that RT takes bandwidth.

 

[ToadMan]

I thought so at first but... why the hell call it series X in the first place?

You think the marketing department in a company like MS cares about what words mean?

They just want them to sound good to their target demographic. "Series X" presumably had a nice ring to it in the marketing meeting, found that their target demographic group associated that term with feelings of value, expense, competence, prestige. All that stuff.

This is the same marketing group that thought Xbox "2" couldn't be used because their customers are so stupid they would've thought PS"3" was a generation more advanced lol.

 

[IkarugaDE]

they are writing : "Christmas 2020" in norwegian playstation page.

They also did on several other pages/languaes.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Let's be fair and realistic.

1. the series x does not use a 5.400RPM HDD
2. the series x is better in other areas
3. Developers always find ways to compensate such technical disadvantages (sometimes without the player is able to notice)

What things on Series X will need serious reworking to get it working on PS5.

Matt said the SSD gulf in performance is by far and away the biggest differentiator between the two consoles.

 

[ToadMan]

I mean more with recent world affairs may affect its release timing more then anything.

As I understand things it was 100% to be released along side the XsX (and still may be) to give people a next gen 1080p option at an inviting price point at $300

This seems like a bad plan from MS though.

I mean on the one hand they're already going to undercut the PS5 price with Xsex if rumors are to be believed.

Then at a similar time this other cheaper "new" xbox is on the shelf.

So customer sees 2 new xbox variants with names that don't really make it clear which revision of tech is the latest, and they basically all run the same games but one is $200 cheaper than the other (perhaps).

They look at Playstation - there a single "5" numbered unit, it runs games only playable on it that (should) look obviously better than what's on PS4 (and probably on Xsex for that matter).

It's a complicated sell for 2 new Xbox compared to the PS5.


Then there's the risk of having two new pieces of hardware in the production pipeline. Maintaining quality control, packaging and marketing for 2 machines with very similar features releasing in the same buying period.

I don't know why MS would want to take any of those risks... Seems like they should have released this Lockhart thing last year or wait a year into Xsex life and then put it on shelves as a "goodbye xb1" final edition.

 

[geordiemp]

Not sure how true this is but it won’t surprise me.

This is pretty big, as he is a current MS dev and he is speaking on camera so it is what it is.

Maybe on that EPIC demo the walk through the small gap and the bloom when the ceiling opens is to allow non Ps5 hardware to load stuff and not have to stream per frame ?

 

[Gediminas]

Well isn't that obvious, if the console releases this year it will be before Black Friday and definetly before christmas. And they said multiple times it will release this year.

Christmas in desember, black friday is in november, it is almost a month apart from each other

 

[Kaiserstark]

This is pretty big, as he is a current MS dev and he is speaking on camera so it is what it is.

Maybe on that EPIC demo the walk through the small gap and the bloom when the ceiling opens is to allow non Ps5 hardware to load stuff and not have to stream per frame ?

I would have to look for a source but apparently the small gap in the Epic demo was an artistic decision to show how good the textures was.

 

[IkarugaDE]

What things on Series X will need serious reworking to get it working on PS5.

I didn't mean that with my post.

 

[gamerforever]

Ps5 games could potentially have one massive world and series x will have to split up the worlds like in xenoblade etc

 

[geordiemp]

I would have to look for a source but apparently the small gap in the Epic demo was an artistic decision to show how good the textures was.

Was just being funny, Its always hard to crack humour in message boards, Sweeny did say they were streaming data for every frame.

 

[TBiddy]

Ps5 games could potentially have one massive world and series x will have to split up the worlds like in xenoblade etc

I'd say the odds of that happening are around nil, unless it's an artistic decision.

 

[ToadMan]

They better increase bandwidth than increasing RAM size. Higher bandwidth may help with RayTracing as Cerny pointed out that RT takes bandwidth.

That's what MS can't do with the existing RAM configuration which has led them to this weird 2 speed RAM solution. To increase bandwidth they'd have to increase RAM size or buy faster RAM.

If they'd put more memory (20Gb seems to be the optimal) in the box they could've made all of it 560Gb/s to the GPU, but presumably they wanted to save money or there was a problem and they had to do a redesign with a fixed hardware base.

Which raises the question why go for this at all and why not just keep unified 448Gb/s as Sony has?

One theory I read is that MS need the bandwidth to feed their GPU - without it the GPU will be underutilized....

 

[husomc]

I see. But like what's the purpose then? if MS made this console to beat PS5 in term of price, why would they wait to release it then?

Unless they'll release XSX before PS5, then release Lockhart simultaneously with PS5?
(of course if PS5 will be out before XSX that would be an entire different story)

This whole thing is kind weird, seems MS is putting all kind of weird world war traps all over the places against Sony lol

The only reason for Lockhart to be scrapped would be if PS5 is more expensive than the XSX.

 

[Dodkrake]

Portuguese website also says "Launching Christmas 2020"

 

[FranXico]

Portuguese website also says "Launching Christmas 2020"

It will be November. Differences in wording across countries are mostly cultural.

 

[Nickolaidas]

In this guy’s universe everything goes wrong for Sony and everything goes right for MS.... hmmmm that’s suspicious.

(chuckles) You don't say.

 

[Dodkrake]

It will be November. Differences in wording across countries are mostly cultural.

Christmas, in Portugal, usually means December. But can fit the "Christmas Holiday Season", I guess, but is not culturally appropriate.

 

[Nickolaidas]

Interesting.

Exact translation is "PlayStation®5 is coming on the market Fall 2020."

Well, in calendar terms, November IS fall ...

 

[FranXico]

Christmas, in Portugal, usually means December. But can fit the "Christmas Holiday Season", I guess, but is not culturally appropriate.

Marketing campaigns for Christmas in Portugal cover a period from late October all the way to December. It is pretty much equivalent to the American "Holiday season" and very much a part of Portuguese culture.

Source: eu nasci e vivi em Portugal até aos 23 anos.

 

[ToadMan]

Two different chips will use a different amount of power at the same clock speed.

Raising clockspeed will always increase power consumption.

https://physics.stackexchange.com/q...h-the-processor-frequency-in-a-typical-comput

You're oversimplifying. Comparing PS5 operation to PC is not an accurate model. What Sony are doing is new - or at least a new application of existing concepts.

The part you are missing is the activity the processor is performing.

And that is key in this discussion, because its activity that the PS5 solution is looking at -using its SOC model - to determine the need to vary the clock and all of that is decided based on available power.

The formula for (dynamic) power use is much more than just clock.

 

[Dodkrake]

Marketing campaigns for Christmas in Portugal cover a period from late October all the way to December. It is pretty much equivalent to the American "Holiday season" and very much a part of Portuguese culture.

Source: eu nasci e vivi em Portugal até aos 23 anos.

Marketing campaigns, yes, but "Christmas" is strictly related to December, especially because of our "Christmas Bonus" payment.

Source: Eu sou Português e vivi até aos 26 em Portugal.

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

Hope we get some news today, 6 and a half hours to know.

 

[ToadMan]

Ps5 games could potentially have one massive world and series x will have to split up the worlds like in xenoblade etc

I think they'll just implement stamina in xsex games - player is moving but has to slow down for a while to refill the gauge basically putting the loading bar in the game lol

[Im Joking!]

 

[ToadMan]

Hope we get some news today, 6 and a half hours to know.

I can't see there being news today. They'll wait a "respectful" amount of time after Mr Floyd's funeral and that is on the 9th.

We might hear a murmur in the evening (US time) of the 10th if things are calm enough. They might even wait until 11.

I do think the 12th is a possible date for it though, it just might be short notice.

 

[dimaveshkin]

If we are comparing different regions, there is no date on Russian version and "end of the year" on Ukrainian. I agree that it's just local offices doing their job, nothing we can really rely on. It's still Holidays 2020, unless Jim Ryan states otherwise.

 

[TLZ]

Not sure how true this is but it won’t surprise me.

Well that sucks.

I pre-ordered both today. I hope the XSX won't have inferior versions like that, or hold games back. I hope they find smart ways to do things.

 

[Finem Orientis]

This is pretty big, as he is a current MS dev and he is speaking on camera so it is what it is.

Maybe on that EPIC demo the walk through the small gap and the bloom when the ceiling opens is to allow non Ps5 hardware to load stuff and not have to stream per frame ?

 

[Kaiserstark]

Was just being funny, Its always hard to crack humour in message boards, Sweeny did say they were streaming data for every frame.

Thanks for the info

 

[dimaveshkin]

Well that sucks.

I pre-ordered both today. I hope the XSX won't have inferior versions like that, or hold games back. I hope they find smart ways to do things.

How did you pre-order something that doesn't have a price yet? Did you just claim your interest or already paid some expected amount of money?

 

[Dodkrake]

If we are comparing different regions, there is no date on Russian version and "end of the year" on Ukrainian. I agree that it's just local offices doing their job, nothing we can really rely on. It's still Holidays 2020, unless Jim Ryan states otherwise.

Yeah. I'd say may release late November.

 

[Marlenus]

You're oversimplifying. Comparing PS5 operation to PC is not an accurate model. What Sony are doing is new - or at least a new application of existing concepts.

The part you are missing is the activity the processor is performing.

And that is key in this discussion, because its activity that the PS5 solution is looking at -using its SOC model - to determine the need to vary the clock and all of that is decided based on available power.

The formula for (dynamic) power use is much more than just clock.

Okay, for a given workload raising clockspeed will increase power consumption.

The PS5 model is different compared to the usual boosting algorithms because they don't want a situation where one ps5 can maintain full clocks but another one has to throttle, they do that by modelling a certain chip as the baseline and others will behave the same way.

The question is how are they achieving that because if they are using modelled behaviour of a bottom of the bin chip how does it account for scenarios that have not been modelled? Do the devkits have a modelling mode so that this information is shipped with games to make sure that all PS5s across the globe behave the same regardless of silicon quality.

 

[TLZ]

How did you pre-order something that doesn't have a price yet? Did you just claim your interest or already paid some expected amount of money?

Yea I put an expression of interest and will be notified when pre-orders open so I can do it online.

 

[TBiddy]

Not sure how true this is but it won’t surprise me.

What is the exact quote?

 

[Barakov]

Well that sucks.

I pre-ordered both today. I hope the XSX won't have inferior versions like that, or hold games back. I hope they find smart ways to do things.

Thankfully, XSX has an SSD. It's not as fast as the PS5's but hopefully devs aren't hamstrung by it. There's going to be differences on that front but I guess the hope isn't that it won't cripple games on XSX.

 

[FranXico]

What is the exact quote?

In the video, within a few seconds. He jokingly commented on game/level design that would allow instantaneous transitions on the PS5 having to be accomodated for PC and Xbox slower data streaming.

 

[ToadMan]

Not sure how true this is but it won’t surprise me.

 

[BadBreathOfTheWild]

That is entirely possible. In the presentation It is called 'Main Custom Chip' not APU not SoC, maybe there really is something there. With all the secrecy that Sony is taking it to the limits this time around with NDAs, I suspect something really woderous and strange is on the horizon.

Yeah. Basically those PS5 specific GPU caches (that Cerny made a point of having just for them) are now their RDNA2 L3 caches, and this SRAM in the I/O complex is their L4. Things are getting weirder and weirder in terms of specialization that this freaking thing has.

The SRAM in the IO Complex is used for decoding, decrypting and decompressing data from kernel memory into user memory according to the Sony storage architecture patent.
It isn’t a generic cache, and it’s not even accessed by the CPU but by a coprocessor and the decompressor.

 

[kebaldo]

This killed me lol

 

[PaintTinJr]

I think they'd be better off and it would be less costly as well to simply increase the bandwidth to what they originally planned it to be. Think that takes higher speed memory modules if I recall correctly? THAT wouldn't add much to the cost of the console and with the I/O advantage the PS5 has, having higher memory bandwidth for their full, unified pool of memory would probably be of more benefit than just upping to 32GB RAM. Would affect power consumption and all of that less as well. That's my realistic wish list, anyway. Then again, we still don't know that the PS5 will be held back by memory bandwidth AT ALL. Maybe it won't!

But surely if PS5 needed faster memory then they would've stumped up the cost and cut corners elsewhere, no?
The UE5 demo works fine at great IQ and frame-rate, so it doesn't look like it is bandwidth bound IMO. The async compute works fine with that bandwidth, what we don't know is how well that 16GB of memory will share when the RT cores and shaders start adding in normal game foreground assets. Presumably it will still work great, based on the animated stuff/main character they used, but adding another 16GB of memory would help that workload more IMHO; especially as we know the demo isn't fixed path, shader or RT core bound - because the demo is largerly software rendering on GPU compute.

I'm not saying 15% more bandwidth doesn't help task scheduling and async compute, but I definitely think 16GB more is better.

 

[Dibils2k]

i wonder if difference in 3rd party will mostly be that the detail will be the same but XSX version has pop in but PS5 doesnt (in open world games)

 

[TBiddy]

Fixed it for you.

In the video, within a few seconds. He jokingly commented on game/level design that would allow instantaneous transitions on the PS5 having to be accomodated for PC and Xbox slower data streaming.

Sorry, have no sound at work.

 

[Zoro7]

Xbox version comes with exclusive elevators and hallways!!

 

[azertydu91]

I just had a thought about the create button that popped when I watched the photomode part about Ghost of Tsushima.
What if it allowed us to create a GIF or a small video that we can use as a dynamic theme on the Ps5?
With the possibility to either center the frame and move around it while you are navigating Ps5 UI or siimply get a better look at it while looking at the upper part of the UI?
I can even imagine that first party games would allow use of game songs or menu sounds.

That could be awesome.

Knowing how companies are they could even sell icons packs or songs for themes.