Support NeoGAF

[JonnyMP3]

I did but you brushed them off because you didn't understand them. That's not my fault. Ask for more in-depth explanation and be prepared to understand 3d graphics principles and the current hardware. It's not hard at all. A lot of you guys will compare these in-game cutscenes to actual CGI and it makes me laugh. Yet, you claim I'm being arrogant because I laugh. I'm laughing because I worked knee deep into this stuff and actually know the "cost" of things. But of course, I get ridiculed instead.

Personally, I find you correct in your reason. A console can in no way shape or form to hit cinematic level CGI no matter what. It takes stacks and stacks of render farms with supercomputer levels of computation.
And also that consoles can't actually compete with 1000 dollar CPUs and GPUs is totally correct, especially since that's the point of a console though. Which is why a lot of people get on you because you're probably used to seeing thousand dollar equipment that might have cost millions to design or implement.
A console is a lowly home entertainment machine. It's also a closed system. Unlike PC's which you can spend money to chase that bleeding edge, that's literally the opposite point to owning a console. It's cheap, plentiful and works compared to having to build your own super PC. And because it's a closed system that cannot be continually brute forced with bigger and extra and faster parts. We are watching developer's work within these constraints but also other advancements within this closed but ingenious system. It's apples vs oranges sometimes. But the fact that some with so much industry experience can't understand that people are genuinely happy to get graphics that continually get closer to looking realistic as possible that wouldn't need an entire data centre to run for around 4-500 dollars is why people think you're arrogant.
A Nissan Gtr will never beat a Bugatti Chiron... But it's not over a million dollars either and it does a good enough job.

 

[Angel of BOOM!]

HZD2 is also an in-engine trailer though...

Agreed. Until we see the gameplay. Actually I'd got as far as to say until we can play the game, nothing else really matters.

But it does build hype...

P.S. I"m actually pretty confident Guerrilla can pull it off though.

 

[Sinthor]

Depends on the number of subscribers Game Pass is able to get, just like Sony will close down studios if their games don't sell.

First the GamePass model will absolutely work, with enough subscribers. I also don't expect them to keep it at a dollar per month past a certain "introductory" period, whatever that ends up being. If they DID keep the membership at $1 per month though it would simply require a larger number of subscribers to make the service viable for them.

It will be interesting to see how this works out. I mean, there's no denying the benefit to a gamer to be able to buy a game this cheaply, have access to so many different games and also be able to run them in multiple places including mobile. That's a pretty good benefit. Now we just have to see what Microsoft's long term plan is regarding pricing, etc.

 

[GreyHand23]

Not at all. I usually tell why I say things. But if you don't understand what I say, then ASK more questions!!!! It's that simple. Don't attack me because you don't believe what I'm saying. Try to look at things from my perspective. I would be more than happy to go into technical details. But I absolutely can't give a good discussion if others starting throwing darts at me.

Here's the first technical question for you. Why does the ideal spec for FS2020 require a SSD if simply having more ram is enough? It asks for 32 GB of ram, but still requires a SSD regardless.

 

[SaucyJack]

I feel bad for lambasting him, but geez he gets on my tits. The shit he says, geez

I recommended to drop the verified thing and things would be so much more chill without the scrutiny. Still recommending it, doesn’t mean I’m saying vfx should, totally his choice.

I’ve got him and Eastwood on ignore for, at least, the next month or two. Neither has said anything useful for a while, may unmute when all the next gen cards have been played and we're ready for launch.

Need more signal and less noise right now.

 

[BlueXImpulse]

HZD2 is also an in-engine trailer though...

But Sony games looking better than everyone else on the market is absolutely nothing new lol

The problem you see is it's not in-engine. It was running on PS5 hardware

 

[MasterCornholio]

Hope I haven't missed anyone

Spoiler

fun fact
There is actually 4 people including Craig in the night sky, can you see the mysterious 4 person?

Craig, VFXVeteran , Bernkastel and there's a faded face. No idea who that is though.

 

[IntentionalPun]

The problem you see is it's not in-engine. It was running on PS5 hardware

I think the problem is you have no clue what you are talking about.

I mean no offense; but.. what?

 

[VFXVeteran]

See?

Here is a perfect example of complete and utter hate for what I say.

You're so fucked up with your fucking PC. When will you shut up? In whatever topic you appear, everywhere you jerk off on your fucking PC. The game will be released after 2-3 years, hypothetically, on your adored PC, and for fuck's sake at all.

OK. Can you tell me WHO told you that they will release HZ2 on PC 2-3 years after it's released on PS5??

What do you want to prove and to whom? Frankly, I'm tired of all these insiders and morons praying on the PC port. You, as an industry veteran, should be above this, but you are a beaten-down PC fanatic who talks nonsense from time to time. You always assert with your "on the PC-the best version" that the PC as a platform is preferred by some feeble-minded cretins.

The PC *is* a platform that will allow graphics rendering to be pushed further than any other platform. If a console can't do ray-traced shadows because it's too expensive, the PC can. If the console can't run a game at 60FPS because it's too expensive, the PC has the ability to do run it. That's just the nature of the platform. Stop fighting it! It has NOTHING to do with PCMR!! It's a blanket fact that I recognize.

You will never have a scenario where a console does something that the top tier hardware can not. Yet, that's what you preach on a day to day basis leaning on the "EXCLUSIVES" to be your justification. If the game never comes out on another platform, then you can always say, "This game is the best looking game of EVERY game out there and it's ONLY available on this console". That arrogance is what many Xbox fans and other PC fans HATE about the Sony guys. Well, that argument isn't going to hold water anymore this new generation. I didn't decide to release these games on the PC. Sony and MS did.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I think the problem is you have no clue what you are talking about.

I mean no offense; but.. what?

It was in-game, not in-engine

 

[Darklor01]

The problem you see is it's not in-engine. It was running on PS5 hardware

Well, .. someone correct me if wrong, in-engine can be running on PS5 hardware, and not be representative of the actual game as a whole. In-Engine can be scripted sequences which don't have the computational requirements that gameplay does. So, you can spend that power on visual fidelity.

The main thing to consider would be that it could still be very much representative of what we get in the end, but we won't know until it releases.

 

[Metroiddarks]

HZD2 is also an in-engine trailer though...

But Sony games looking better than everyone else on the market is absolutely nothing new lol

Is in realtime cinematic in a PS5.

Probably the only competition for that game in graphics the next year will be the next battlefield or some crazy project of Ubisoft
in 2022 Xbox should has title in that level.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I’ve got him and Eastwood on ignore for, at least, the next month or two. Neither has said anything useful for a while, may unmute when all the next gen cards have been played and we're ready for launch.

Need more signal and less noise right now.

It's kind of hard for ignore to work if E eastwood333 keeps derailing threads. Even though I don't see his comments I can tell when people reply to him. Also the fact that some individuals keep posting pictures of what he said doesn't help at all.

But we should be taking our gripes go the meta thread as it only makes this one go out of control. I'm sure the admins will want that as well.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Well, .. someone correct me if wrong, in-engine can be running on PS5 hardware, and not be representative of the actual game as a whole. In-Engine can be scripted sequences which don't have the computational requirements that gameplay does. So, you can spend that power on visual fidelity.

100% correct.

The main thing to consider would be that it could still be very much representative of what we get in the end, but we won't know until it releases.

Judging from past games, you should get an idea of what the transition would look like. Basically will not be 1:1.

 

[BlueXImpulse]

I think the problem is you have no clue what you are talking about.

I mean no offense; but.. what?

We know the exact hardware and specs Horizon was running on (PS5). We don't know the specs the Halo Infinite in-engine trailer was running on. You're using "in-engine" as a way to reign in expectations for Horizon as if to imply that it's not running in realistic conditions.

 

[IntentionalPun]

It was in-game, not in-engine

It's clearly a cinematic presentation and not gameplay..

You guys have no clue what you are talking about. Like are you lying? Don't understand words? Dont' know what a videogame is?

So confusing..

 

[Darklor01]

See?
Here is a perfect example of complete and utter hate for what I say.

Perhaps, .. mute those that you see as just attacking you and not worth engaging with. It might make it easier to participate in the conversation without feeling attacked, even if you are being attacked.

 

[IntentionalPun]

We know the exact hardware and specs Horizon was running on (PS5). We don't know the specs the Halo Infinite in-engine trailer was running on. You're using "in-engine" as a way to reign in expectations for Horizon as if to imply that it's not running in realistic conditions.

No I'm usoing in engine because it was rendered in engine.

I'm using "trailer" because it was clearly pieced together from cinematic sequences.. and not actual gameplay.. AKA it was an in-engine trailer.

 

[zaitsu]

See?

Here is a perfect example of complete and utter hate for what I say.




OK. Can you tell me WHO told you that they will release HZ2 on PC 2-3 years after it's released on PS5??



The PC *is* a platform that will allow graphics rendering to be pushed further than any other platform. If a console can't do ray-traced shadows because it's too expensive, the PC can. If the console can't run a game at 60FPS because it's too expensive, the PC has the ability to do run it. That's just the nature of the platform. Stop fighting it! It has NOTHING to do with PCMR!! It's a blanket fact that I recognize.

You will never have a scenario where a console does something that the top tier hardware can not. Yet, that's what you preach on a day to day basis leaning on the "EXCLUSIVES" to be your justification. If the game never comes out on another platform, then you can always say, "This game is the best looking game of EVERY game out there and it's ONLY available on this console". That arrogance is what many Xbox fans and other PC fans HATE about the Sony guys. Well, that argument isn't going to hold water anymore this new generation. I didn't decide to release these games on the PC. Sony and MS did.

HZD2 will happen on PC just before PS6 i think. I give it at least 5 years.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

It's clearly a cinematic presentation and not gameplay..

You guys have no clue what you are talking about. Like are you lying? Don't understand words? Dont' know what a videogame is?

So confusing..

Why don't you chill out?

Even BG said there were gameplay snippets in that trailer

 

[BlueXImpulse]

Well, .. someone correct me if wrong, in-engine can be running on PS5 hardware, and not be representative of the actual game as a whole. In-Engine can be scripted sequences which don't have the computational requirements that gameplay does. So, you can spend that power on visual fidelity.

The main thing to consider would be that it could still be very much representative of what we get in the end, but we won't know until it releases.

When I say in-engine I'm talking about lack of defined specs. Maybe I should use another term.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Why didn't you provide Osiris with your in-depth explanation? When he challenged you with your nonsense all you could respond with was baseless conjecture. When others did, all you could do was respond with the laughing emoji. They weren't attacking you either. You make ridiculous one line claims and don't follow through with what we would expect from a veteran in your field, and you're shocked you get dogged on for it

I don't know Osiris and at that time, I definitely didn't want to put out my sources. I was very careful not to say or verify anything until the console was announced.

 

[Nickolaidas]

The PC *is* a platform that will allow graphics rendering to be pushed further than any other platform. If a console can't do ray-traced shadows because it's too expensive, the PC can. If the console can't run a game at 60FPS because it's too expensive, the PC has the ability to do run it. That's just the nature of the platform. Stop fighting it!

You're the only one who makes a fight out of this. For everyone else is an undisputed fact they don't give a fuck about.

Because we're supposed to be talking about consoles here. Not PC.

 

[Darklor01]

100% correct.



Judging from past games, you should get an idea of what the transition would look like. Basically will not be 1:1.

I wouldn't expect 1:1 at all. I would expect something like what happened with GoT, or HFD from their in-engine to their in game. Optimizations will be made and quality will be lost as power is required elsewhere on console. I just don't expect all that much to be lost based on what I've seen between their reveals to their end products for that game.

 

[Freeman]

HZD2 is also an in-engine trailer though...

But Sony games looking better than everyone else on the market is absolutely nothing new lol

It's an in-engine running on PS5. Pretty much how any cutscene it today.

The great majority of games aren't revealed with a gameplay demo, nothing wrong with that, that game does have cutscenes after all.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I don't know Osiris and at that time, I definitely didn't want to put out my sources. I was very careful not to say or verify anything until the console was announced.

You couldn't go into any technical reason why you thought HZD1 on PC would look better than HZD2 because it would out your sources?

Seriously?

Your track record is the crap in the first place so i'm surprised you're playing that card

 

[IntentionalPun]

Why don't you chill out?

Even BG said there were gameplay snippets in that trailer

Ok so what you meant by "it was in game" was "there were maybe snippets of gameplay says a guy who works for some VR video company in France"?

Got it so you were lying.

 

[Used-ID]

Even being isolated due to being Covid-19 positive this thread has turned into crap.

Granted Sircaw's comedy relief is great, but man, y'all really need to let some of this shit go....

Another round of news/specs/leaks/videos from the manufacturers is so needed to get us back on track.

What I feel we also need is an agnostic release hype train for mid-November - when we can actually get our little plastic boxes and games to go with them.

 

[VFXVeteran]

I wouldn't expect 1:1 at all. I would expect something like what happened with GoT, or HFD from their in-engine to their in game. Optimizations will be made and quality will be lost as power is required elsewhere on console. I just don't expect all that much to be lost based on what I've seen between their reveals to their end products for that game.

Well, if you look for the more expensive rendering features, they will become very noticeable. SSS is one such feature that will never transition 1:1. Hair is another one. They usually step down the number of BRDF lobes for hair rendering for the in-game character presentation. self-shadowing is another expensive one. I'm used to these so the transition is always jarring to me.

 

[IntentionalPun]

It's an in-engine trailer running on PS5. Pretty much how any cutscene it today.

The great majority of games aren't revealed with a gameplay demo.

Why are you saying this to me and not the people claiming it's not a trailer and actually was gameplay?

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Ok so what you meant by "it was in game" was "there were maybe snippets of gameplay says a guy who works for some VR video company in France"?

Got it so you were lying.

You don't capture in-engine footage on a PS5. It is captured in-game. Chill out or take a break.

 

[Dodkrake]

Let's keep on denying that HFW is gonna look exactly like that or better. Then reality will hit.

 

[VFXVeteran]

You couldn't go into any technical reason why you thought HZD1 on PC would look better than HZD2 because it would out your sources?

Seriously?

Maybe I don't know what you are saying . I thought you was talking about early PS5 reveal on specs.

Your track record is the crap in the first place so i'm surprised you're playing that card

Stop with the insults dude and just talk like an adult.

 

[Killer Sakoman]

But that's what they want. Don't allow them to try and bully you on here.

You're next

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Maybe I don't know what you are saying . I thought you was talking about early PS5 reveal on specs.



Stop with the insults dude and just talk like an adult.

No. I was refering to your claim about HZD1 looking better on PC than HZD2. Your justification back then when you made those claims were laughable.

Calling your track record crap (which it is) isn't an insult

 

[Angel of BOOM!]

The PC *is* a platform that will allow graphics rendering to be pushed further than any other platform. If a console can't do ray-traced shadows because it's too expensive, the PC can. If the console can't run a game at 60FPS because it's too expensive, the PC has the ability to do run it. That's just the nature of the platform. Stop fighting it! It has NOTHING to do with PCMR!! It's a blanket fact that I recognize.

Of course a PC can be more powerful. The release cadence on PC hardware is higher than consoles AND people are willing to spend more on the machine or components. However...

In a vast majority of cases, teams will not view PC as their lead platform (certainly not the top of the range PC). This makes it far more difficult to get the most out of them. Not because you can't but because, you know, time and money. It's far better to squeeze the very most our of an embedded system (like Xbox or Playstation) and then port over to PC with a few minor, quick improvements to keep the PC buyers happy (higher framerate and higher res are the kinds of things you can do pretty quickly and cheaply). What you're unlikely to see in most cases is where major changes to the game are made for the PC version (esp. if it's going to be released day and date with the console version).

 

[Freeman]

Why are you saying this to me and not the people claiming it's not a trailer and actually was gameplay?

Just saying it's even better than just in-engine. In-engine doesn't mean anything anymore given how capable game engines are, running on the PS5 is the important part.

Gone are the days of CGI cutscenes in video format.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

First the GamePass model will absolutely work, with enough subscribers. I also don't expect them to keep it at a dollar per month past a certain "introductory" period, whatever that ends up being. If they DID keep the membership at $1 per month though it would simply require a larger number of subscribers to make the service viable for them.

It will be interesting to see how this works out. I mean, there's no denying the benefit to a gamer to be able to buy a game this cheaply, have access to so many different games and also be able to run them in multiple places including mobile. That's a pretty good benefit. Now we just have to see what Microsoft's long term plan is regarding pricing, etc.

Those $1 a month are indeed not going to last. Pretty sure that eventually you might have some deals sometimes, but most of the time it will just be $10-15 which is still amazing value.

 

[VFXVeteran]

No. I was refering to your claim about HZD1 looking better on PC than HZD2

How did Osiris get into this conversation then?

Calling your track record crap (which it is) isn't an insult

Well, it definitely isn't true - for one. 2. It adds nothing to the conversation. It just tries to rile me up and continue defending which people are tired of I would say. So stick to the discussion and maybe you and I will understand what each other is trying to convey.

 

[Darklor01]

Well, if you look for the more expensive rendering features, they will become very noticeable. SSS is one such feature that will never transition 1:1. Hair is another one. They usually step down the number of BRDF lobes for hair rendering for the in-game character presentation. self-shadowing is another expensive one. I'm used to these so the transition is always jarring to me.

Regarding Hair, .. look only as far back as The Witcher 3 on PC for how much was made about advances with Hair. ... Back to HZD..

Here's the initial reveal:


Here's the gameplay trailer:


Launch Trailer:


Look at the hair... is it vastly different? Is the look of the game vastly different? I'm not sure I see worlds of difference between these.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

How did Osiris get into this conversation then?



Well, it definitely isn't true - for one. 2. It adds nothing to the conversation. It just tries to rile me up and continue defending which people are tired of I would say. So stick to the discussion and maybe you and I will understand what each other is trying to convey.

Because he was involved when you made this claim?

Just don't play your sources card. No one believes it

 

[Freeman]

Those $1 a month are indeed not going to last. Pretty sure that eventually you might have some deals sometimes, but most of the time it will just be $10-15 which is still amazing value.

So far we have been getting those trials and promos since the service first started. Look at how many CPU and GPUs AMD sold that came with months of gamepass included as well.

 

[Red_Driver85]

The PC *is* a platform that will allow graphics rendering to be pushed further than any other platform.

You're an awful prick. Fuck off with your PC. If there is any real information, as insider, then write. Although in fact, you only shit yourself a few times. No one here needs your fortune-telling and assumptions.

 

[44alltheway]

Do y'all remember when we would look at Sony's New York Coliseum's own calendar to speculate when Sony would would reveal the PS5? Ahhhh, those were the days! They really feel like they are from a bygone era.

 

[IntentionalPun]

You don't capture in-engine footage on a PS5. It is captured in-game. Chill out or take a break.

Uhh.. yes.. you do.. it's in-engine running on PS5.

That's what it was. LOL, so you just don't know what words mean.

And get lost with this "chill out" crap. You can either make sense or I'll tell you that you aren't making sense.

Start making sense. Maybe if you take a break you'll come back and make sense.

 

[Physiognomonics]

HZD2 is also an in-engine trailer though...

But Sony games looking better than everyone else on the market is absolutely nothing new lol

in-engine real-time on PS5. This makes a big difference.

If "in-engine" is used alone it means that it's not even real-time, whether PC or on any console, like Hellblade 2 'in-engine' trailer.

 

[IntentionalPun]

in-engine real-time on PS5. This makes a big difference.

If "in-engine" is used alone it means that it's not even real-time, whether PC or on any console, like Hellblade 2 'in-engine' trailer.

Right; real time..... as was the Halo Infinite stuff obviously, otherwise it would have looked way better.

"In engine" alone just isn't enough info it doesn't imply it's not real time.

 

[Metroiddarks]

Well, .. someone correct me if wrong, in-engine can be running on PS5 hardware, and not be representative of the actual game as a whole. In-Engine can be scripted sequences which don't have the computational requirements that gameplay does. So, you can spend that power on visual fidelity.

The main thing to consider would be that it could still be very much representative of what we get in the end, but we won't know until it releases.

In engine is basically done in the engine running almost always in the most powerful machine available one example this UE4 demonstration of 2013:


Realtime cinematic is basically the best you can in some system but in running in that system, that is the important:


About how close is a realtime cinematic to a real gameplay depends of each game.

 

[TGO]

You guys arguing over in-game cutscenes now?

 

[VFXVeteran]

In a vast majority of cases, teams will not view PC as their lead platform (certainly not the top of the range PC). This makes it far more difficult to get the most out of them. Not because you can't but because, you know, time and money.

Agree here but that doesn't mean it's not their agnostic piece of hardware that they can do R&D on. Creating 4k textures in the first place in Zbrush, knowing that the hardware can't handle it but allowing for changes to the textures would be an efficient workflow. Also, starting with seeing high res shadow maps (for example) to show the director a clean vs. "here we are now" comparison would also be beneficial as it allows the director to say, "well, let's use high res shadow maps here on this level, but scale it back at this level, etc.."

It's far better to squeeze the very most our of an embedded system (like Xbox or Playstation) and then port over to PC with a few minor, quick improvements to keep the PC buyers happy (higher framerate and higher res are the kinds of things you can do pretty quickly and cheaply). What you're unlikely to see in most cases is where major changes to the game are made for the PC version (esp. if it's going to be released day and date with the console version).

Absolutely agree. This definitely is the case. Especially since a lot of graphics features can be dialed in with sliders. The sketchy case would be texture sizes. While FF15 had low res textures for the consoles, the PC version had the original high res ones. Those kinds of additions make the game look dramatically better than the console versions.