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saintjules
Member
He went private after that lol
Lethal01
Member
Can't believe Epic's getting paid just to tell the truth.
Thedtrain
Member
Lol as a lurker at the time, I highly enjoyed those discussions
Lethal01
Member
JonnyMP3
Member
In some implementations, the vertex parameter values include parameter values of all three vertices of a triangle primitive
In some implementations, compressing the vertex parameter values includes storing two floating point numbers together as one value having twice as many bits as each of the two floating point numbers.
In some implementations, compressing the vertex parameter values includes storing two 16-bit floating point numbers together as one 32-bit value.
In some implementations, the method further includes performing pixel shader computations on the interpolated parameter values.
In some implementations, the method may include, before compressing, modifying the parameter values with the vertex shader.
After trying to decipher the wall of text.....
I can say the vertex can include all 3 vertices for a primitive triangle which can be calculated at fp16 with RPM but also can be modified in the vertex shader, and the pixel shader can actually start shading the calculation of the vertex even as the vertex shader is being modified.
This is some rapid on the fly geometry! And I can definitely see it needing a robust geometry engine to continuously keep a hold of the continuous changing sequencing.
This is why the cache scrubbers are needed in the GPU because if the geometry map of vertices and shaders are saved on cache, it needs to be constantly updated of the constantly changing render parameters, deleting all unwanted data but keep necessary stuff and saving wastage in the render pipeline as the GPU rasterizes...
My God... This is definitely customisation heavy if it's true. Because it's definitely CPU intensive normally. And I dropped out of MSCE class like 20 years ago.
T
Three Jackdaws
Unconfirmed Member
I'll just pretend to know what on Earth you have just said lol
Although I do remember a remark by Mark Cerny about how the "Primitive Shaders" are great for synthesising geometry on the fly!
JonnyMP3
Member
Well it's not really paid 250 million if with it, Sony is buying an percentage of Epic for that price.
It just means Sony now owns a minor share of Epic.
JonnyMP3
Member
Even my own brain can't fully comprehend.
If I had to use a Marvel character to explain my situation... It'd be Hawkeye because this is above my pay grade.
But the ELI5 version is the GPU can render stuff a lot more effectively and efficiently.
Because normally when the GPU gets instructions, that's it. It has to render the whole frame and then in the next one can things be adjusted according to data input of the game.
What PS5 GPU can do is render stuff on the fly WITH the new data.
So instead of waiting for the GPU to finish drawing the frame from the current blueprint given by the CPU and each frame is in this process.
Game code is effectively telling the GPU what it wants to draw without having to use a blueprint on the fly, because it had a fuck ton of tricks to help manage it.
I don't even feel that's an ELI5...
Edit: But just to be clear, if all this is really correct and it works.
First Party Games will definitely look as good or maybe better than the Unreal Engine 5 demo as they get better at getting grips with the tech.
Addendum: We say it can render on the fly quickly because the GPU is 2.23GHz. That clock is refreshing rapidly so it's also rendering rapidly.
The bottle neck used to be either dataspeed bottle neck... I.E. I/O throughput or not enough RAM to store assets.
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Metroiddarks
Member
This is pure gold:
Dabaus
Banned
According to Xbox fandom that I was reading halo infinite delay will have no impact on the Xbox’s launch this year and Ps5 will also be 600 dollars while the series x will be 500. Like, imagine being that guy who types something like that out and hits send or post or whatever.
qiqiqiiq
Member
I imagine that they want their E3 2013 moment when Sony announced a more powerful console for 100 dollars less.
Manage to snag it from the cache.
This partly explains issues with "Halo Infinite". Obsession over the frame rate at the cost of visual lustre.
Metroiddarks
Member
Not really, Boon is right but also the problems in 343 are more than just a decision in the framerate.
I understand. Should've elaborated further. Assumption I was making is that they are building Halo Inf. on the current gen engine.
Trying to brute force fps where engine is not optimised for Zen2 CPU. Just speculating of course.
Regards
Metroiddarks
Member
Agree but even now exists titles like Doom which looks much more better in current console with hardware of 2013, so yeah its tools
are big part of the problem but also the chiefs in Xbox should say when they saw the version they were going to show that day and
say "we cannot share that".
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Imtjnotu
Member
B_Boss
Member
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FeiRR
Banned
You have no idea... But I can't even tell that story.
HAL-01
Member
60fps is not the problem by itself but it’s part of a series of bad executive decisions each of which make the game harder to develop for: not only does it need to be optimized for native 4K, both 60fps and 120fps, with split screen co-op, but also optimized for 4 different consoles hitting a vast range of performance levels, all the while being an open-world with dynamic time of day. Add to that having a revolving door for a studio and you get the halo infinite gameplay demo
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FeiRR
Banned
There are many problems with Halo presentation and a huge part of them is Microsoft targeting a wide variety of hardware. First of all, they say that Xbox Series X has many advanced features (let's put them together under RDNA2 name). However, for some reason they don't work with their advanced hardware, instead they show games off PCs. This means, those advanced features have to be software emulated because RDNA2 cards aren't out there (there's a chance Microsoft has access to them but I don't know if they do).
You can notice in the Halo demo that, for example, VRS makes a lot of distant textures look bad, people pointed out 720p textures. It's a result of software emulation of that particular feature on a PC which doesn't have any other way to do it. But VRS is quite simple, can be software emulated.
Now let's think about Geometry Engine. It's a hardware solution to drastically increase rendering power. Can you emulate it somehow? Well, of course, you can. But to do that, you'll actually decrease the speed of rendering many times, instead of improving it. A game which uses that feature, ported directly from PS5 to PC, would crawl on even the fastest GPUs provided they don't have those hardware components. Current HZD PC port is a good example of that.
Now imagine you're Microsoft and Game Pass is your song. You need to make a game for Xbox last gen, Xbox Series X/S and actually TWO kinds of Windows platforms: those with Nvidia GPUs and those with AMD GPUs. There are also Intel discrete GPUs but you can just set specs higher and say it won't work (even though Intel is trying to up their GPUs now). Can you use specific RDNA2 features in your games? No, either Xbox original will suffer or it's possible that Nvidia cards in PCs won't be able to handle those. They may have similar features but done in a different way because of, for example, patents. But then it means a lot more work for your devs.
We're going to witness a vicious circle: Xbox Series X/S launches with no exclusive games -> few people buy the console -> Microsoft first-party face the inevitable: most of their customers are PC users with two different GPU platforms -> they don't use advanced features of their own 9th gen consoles -> Xbox games look far worse than PS5 games -> Xbox still doesn't sell... and so on, at nauseam.
And this is their own studios, if you think about third-party: so many platforms to code for, small install base and the competition of GP games being more attractive than your brand new $60 offer. I think most of them will just pass and not release the Xbox version. Only the biggest publishers with sure sales of millions (EA, Activision, Take 2) will bite that bitter sandwich.
All this is simple industry logic. Microsoft not seeing this means they are pretty stupid, ignorant, call it as you like. Showing Halo in its current state to gamers was an offence. They thought people would just accept how it looks. That's a whole new level of arrogance.
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B_Boss
Member
Goodness can you imagine eating some good fish and then bite on some damned human teeth!?
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IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
If you think about it you are always biting human teeth.Goodness can you imagine eating some good fish and then bite on some damned human teeth!?
Elog
Member
I think people are not fully taking in what the Boon twitter thread means.
Let's start with resolution. We know both the XSX and the PS5 have sufficient Tflops to push both 4K30 and 4K60. The XSX can squeeze out more FPS than PS5 if need be due to the TFlops advantage but both can do 4K60 which is the key point here.
What Boon is saying is that at both 30 and 60 FPS the real bottle neck is post-processing or in other word how much eye candy you want. And this budget is mainly measured in ms i.e. time.
Post-processing will in turn be determined by the amount of silicon dedicated for this task (it needs to be sufficient to run those 30 or 60 FPS per second at 4K) but the real constraint is time. Time will in turn to a major degree be determined by cache management and frequency...
You know where I am going with this. In addition, the PS5 has a more advanced geometry engine and can push more and higher-fidelity textures.
Cerny is no fool.
Let's start with resolution. We know both the XSX and the PS5 have sufficient Tflops to push both 4K30 and 4K60. The XSX can squeeze out more FPS than PS5 if need be due to the TFlops advantage but both can do 4K60 which is the key point here.
What Boon is saying is that at both 30 and 60 FPS the real bottle neck is post-processing or in other word how much eye candy you want. And this budget is mainly measured in ms i.e. time.
Post-processing will in turn be determined by the amount of silicon dedicated for this task (it needs to be sufficient to run those 30 or 60 FPS per second at 4K) but the real constraint is time. Time will in turn to a major degree be determined by cache management and frequency...
You know where I am going with this. In addition, the PS5 has a more advanced geometry engine and can push more and higher-fidelity textures.
Cerny is no fool.
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geordiemp
Member
I re,ember your persecution well, FP16 on ps4 was ahead of its time but was never really used for that power rating.
Ps5 its difficult as most of teh patent suggests its bandwidth / cache efficiency and compression and bottlenecks, if there is MUCH more performance GAF would melt.
Grinchy
Banned
I think it looks awesome too, but I don't think it'll be a launch game. If they felt confident in a date, I think they would have said "Holiday 2020" or something. They didn't even feel confident saying early 2021
zaitsu
Banned
becuase PS4 is currentgen
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mejin
Member
learn to differentiate what is just information and what is opinion.
There is malice when he is projecting his opinions.
He and Grubb started to side MS a few days ago. They were just leakers before.
Patterson
Member
I hope it is. I think it looks like a lot of fun too. Could be a sleeper hit imo.
Snowdonhoffen
Member
Jason Schreier was on the money once again, now it is confirmed Xbox was considering releasing Halo Infinite in sections at different dates.
Shmunter
Member
Because his source would be someone that observed it without any direct understanding of the context of what they were looking at. The ps5 version may have been compiled for the first time that day vs XsX version having months of work. Etc, that’s just a guess as good as any, but an educated guess.
Why? because 1080p 60 issues on one vs 4K 60 no problems on the other, simply do not stand up to any scrutiny of logic.
FunkMiller
Member
Thought exercise:
What would Xbox Series X, Microsoft and the landscape in general look like if Halo Infinite had been designed as an Xbox Series X exclusive? How different would things be right now?
Wraith Phantom
Member
Phil Spencer talking again. That means damage control incoming. And disappointment for xbox warriors. This becoming like clockwork.
Apollo Helios
Member
This Dusk golem twitter thread and lots of dumb people believing that shit in there is just baffling to me. I get you may like a plastic box over the other but come on! Do not leave your brain in a dumpster when you are faced with facts and need to decide, the signs are there that none of these "insider" fucks are telling the truth and boasting power once again when the software library is vehemently lacking. Do not believe their lies and base your buying decision on them and spend your money erroneously... PS5 is just another class above XSX, in terms of custom hardware made exclusively for the platform and also in terms of exclusive software library that will only be on that platform. If your friends are on xbox and they can buy only one console at the beginning, I would convince everyone to migrate to Sony this generation (if they haven't already to begin with LOL). Isn't the last gen big enough warning that they have not learned anything and what's more they are exactly replicating their mistakes in other ways....
3liteDragon
Member
Holy fucking shit...
Also, that FP16 part goes perfectly along with what Cerny’s been saying since the PS4 Pro’s release.
If you place two half-floats together instead of one full-float on the vector registers, it literally means more wavefronts running on the CUs.
THIS is the reason why he decided to keep the CU count the same for PS5, it’s easier to get close to that peak TFLOPs number (10.28 TFLOPs) with way less CUs clocked at an insane frequency and by also running a lot more wavefronts on those CUs. (Extracting more performance out of them and VALU utilization goes up, AKA the amount of TFLOPs used goes up)
You don’t need 32-bits of storage for storing vertex values every frame, that can be achieved with way less precision like FP16.
This is some truly insane stuff, can you imagine the type of games we’re gonna see once devs master the hardware?
Cerny’s an absolute genius and Sony’s honestly super lucky to have him.
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Well, it would be strange if he was "bought" by M$ and he is biased. I can't wait for more to hear about the performance of PS5.
Strange thing is that M$ is focused on performance and they are not giving to much info about system features, gamepad or SSD.
AeneaGames
Member
DrDamn
Member
I get all excited when I see a flight game based around birds of prey like this. So many interesting possibilities with flight mechanics and control. It usually only takes a minute into a video for the birds to start shooting lasers/guns/funkiness and my excitement deflates. So many great things you could do with this sort of idea, and adding "guns" isn't one of them.
(see also Eagle Flight - Ubisoft VR game)
zaitsu
Banned
I agree.
PS4 was his idea " budget testing device".
With PS5 he had green light to pursuit his dreams. Of course without budget constraints he would go for bigger GPU. But budget isn't unlimited. I belive him in him having wise approach.
I hope MS will fight with last thing that can save them - console price. Because without them going cheap SONY would go high. Because at the moment there is no reason to buy XSX if you have XOX.
And i want to clear one thing :
RE8 was ported to nextgen consoles from currentgen and if PS5 was struggling with RE8 and XSX not out of the gate it only means one thing and thats not that XSX is superior but that XSX is continuation of currentgen consoles. PS5 on the other hand is first of its own kind and needs vastly different approach. XSX isnt easiest console to learn but devs already know it from XOX and PC , PS5 is easiest console to learn but it is still the first time devs meet this kind of hardware.
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FeiRR
Banned
They'd have one nice exclusive at launch, happy hardcore fanbase with hopes for the same games formula as always (Forza, Fable) plus some nice prospects for new IPs in the future. Honestly, I had believed that would be the case. Not my thing but a lot of people just like those games and I feel sorry for them.
Apollo Helios
Member
Yeah also FP16 is much more suited to warped GPGPU atomics. Basically lots of filtering and eye candy that previously cost lots of frame time before can be done in much quicker times/more frequently, now running in more-parallel, half precision wavefronts. This is like using GPU actually more like what it really does for graphics but now for non-graphics general purpose computing more so than ever before. And this way you magically double some of the bandwidth available from the RAM, as you double the operation per clock, you also halve the memory print. The trouble in the past was the coherency across RAM and (order of magnitude faster) cache memory inside the GPU itself. But PS5 solves that with cache scrubbers inside the GPU and actually use FP16 in all software.
zaitsu
Banned
And thats the reason why we didnt see anything on XSX.
hemo memo
Gold Member
chilichote
Member
Maybe that's a stupid question, but does that mean the GPU really only has to calculate what is necessary, because what is not needed is sorted out beforehand?
Would that mean the PS5 GPU needs fewer TFlops to compute the same as a GPU with more TFlops?
zaitsu
Banned
It COULD, we will need to wait for ND next game to show everybody why SONY is the only truly nextgen on the market.
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M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
You too slav? "Serny", which due to origin of his name which comes from here, which means "black", but English people call him basically "shitter"....
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