llien
Member
How do you "worry about diversity later", what does it mean?
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We need more talent>diversity in the gaming industry.
- Thread starter levyjl1988
- Start date
So what you're saying is, even you were too bigoted for Ree.
Not a good look, friendo.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
No, it isn't. It is about hiring someone based on their gender/sex/religion/race first and foremost and their skill second. I know - I have been on these hiring boards.
Piss off with your lying bullshit.
Twinguistics
Member
Ouch. That would make me crazy indeed. Nah, I actually posted something that they misunderstood as being right-leaning and banned me so quick I couldn't even explain. It was crazy.
Right leaning adjacent? Yikes!
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I don't think anyone has ever said this, even in that pic, spotted only 1 black guy.
Actually for a war game I would trust a black man more than a white woman, but that's a personal opinion based on how their brain would work.
There is no such strength in diversity, the strength is in hiring the best people for the job.
The Strength Diversity Brings to the Halo Universe
Official site for 343 Industries, guardians of the Halo franchise.www.343industries.com
Results speak for themselves though, they targeted diversity hiring instead of talents with the best curriculum, the game is shit, and this is not the first time this happens.
What if you hired a diverse group of people that were ALL the best people for the job?
So the arguments in the thread is that black, brown, jewish or asian people don't have talent, neither do women? Is this it?
Because it sure seems most are denying the main point which is that for years people haven't hired based -just- on talent but also racism or sexism, and while SJWs are trying to force diversity over talent, people on this thread sure seem to be advocating for racism and sexism over talent, and not meritocracy...
Because it sure seems most are denying the main point which is that for years people haven't hired based -just- on talent but also racism or sexism, and while SJWs are trying to force diversity over talent, people on this thread sure seem to be advocating for racism and sexism over talent, and not meritocracy...
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Answer: Everyone would be happy.
MastaKiiLA
Member
There are literally no points to address that make any amount of sense outside of a white man's perspective, a perspective I'm unfamiliar with. As a man, I know women are disadvantaged, and are perfectly capable of performing the same jobs. We're not talking about hiring someone to be a door bouncer, where clearly physical requirements are better suited for men than women. It's coding. I hire people. I've hired only men, but that's because I don't speak the local language, and live in a part of the world where the English-language requirement makes it incredibly difficult for me to find employees. So I ended up with ex-pats and Thais who have lived abroad. I know for a fact I passed over at least one woman who was well-qualified technically, and better than most of the men I hired, but her English was terrible. And we deal primarily with Europeans and Australians.
So in my experience, diversity isn't an issue at all. Our Asia team has more technical expertise than the Americas team. In particular, we've found Pakistan to be our best source of quality employees. A Pakistani woman is product manager of what we anticipate will be our big new app. I handed off management of our highest-revenue product to a Pakistani man. The best troubleshooter on my team, after me, is another Pakistani man. That anyone wants to pretend that diversity is a negative, just suggests an ignorant or misinformed viewpoint. One where the old trope that "they took all our jobs" gets a new coat of paint, and a fake moral stance, to try to disguise the same petty ugliness that we've seen for quite literally decades, if not centuries. We even got the "I've seen this happen first-hand" guy to provide some added authenticity with the remarkable sample size of one. Well, I'll counter that with my one personal account to balance the scales.
You can put lipstick on this pig. Give it some blush, a pretty dress, and some hot red pumps, but it's still a pig. Are some of us supposed to pretend we haven't seen this same lame take dressed up in countless different outfits? The complete and utter lack of originality in crafting the lie is the undoing of this misguided campaign each time. Let's just agree to disagree, before I get accused of crusading again. I'm putting this thread on ignore.
Nickolaidas
Member
Only one black man in that pic. Hmm. Getting some 'Where's Waldo' vibes right now.General Staff pic
I'm not sure how you can look at the second picture and still think of it as a company flying a No White Dudes Allowed flag. It's a "diverse" office, but it's also a whole lot of white guys sharing the blame with all the women being called out on this thread as being not-talent.
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I can assure you, you’re not crusading.
idrago01
Banned
Yes the military historically such a bastion of diversity
Anyone who has ever had to work with women professionally know that's not true, women on average are not as good as men, some are very capable but it's rare and even the capable ones usually bring more drama than good to most companies, these are facts whether you want to believe it or not.
Oppoi
Member
It's important to have all shapes and sizes represented because all of us matter equalliy and it's wrong to group us into the fascist norms of what is functional and not! That's how death camps are created! And that is how we came up with our ball bearings! They're expensive as hell and they do not work... We're completey broke!
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B-universe
Banned
And that's why you quoted people advocating for sexism and racism in hiring. You also quoted people claiming women have no talent and neither do black, brown, Jewish or Asian people.
Oh, wait!
You didn't! You quoted zero people, just so you could smear and Strawman and get away with very vague and generic accusations to the block of people you disagree with, en masse.
Tough luck.
You crap is being called out.
The stupidity of this claim cannot be overstated.
Arguments are not true or false by virtue of who's arguing for or against them.
This is very basic epistemology, yet you seem to be struggling with it.
It's interesting how you felt compelled to preface the statement with "As a man". If you don't accept objective reality, my commiserations.
Where's your evidence women are "disadvantaged"?
Present your evidence.
Can you quote the individual who called for studios to always hire men and not women and direct your mental vigour towards them?
Thanks.
So you want empathy for your supposedly reasonable decision to only hire men. Ok. Would you extend the exact same empathy towards studios that through an entirely blind un-guided process end up with a mostly male team? Would you?
Oh, I see. Other factors besides sexism and racism could help explain why management takes this or that hiring decision. Good to know.
Somehow all the good-will and good -faith you're asking from the thread is reserved for you alone, but not the studios. With you it's all charitable well-meaning decisions. In the gaming industry, no, it's blatant sexism and racism.
It just has to be sexism and racism.
You've decided as much and so reality must comport.
Learn what a Strawman is and try to avoid it like the plague.
Quote the people who called for non-American IT professionals not to be hired and direct your anti-xenophobic fervour towards them.
Completely irrelevant.
Your unoriginal tactics of trying to smear your opponents as racists will be called out.
Yes, when he does it the sample size is a problem. When you wax poetic about Pakistani women leading your next big hit app project, now, that story reflects the whole of reality.
You're vey clever. People won't notice this self-serving disparity.
Learn what anecdotal evidence is.
The only thing that stinks here is your dishonesty, ignorance and the attempts to smear your opponents as racists.
Try harder.
Do better.
Nothing but dishonest accusations of racism, sexism and xenophobia will be missed.
And when I say to direct your energy towards specific, truly sexist posts, I mean posts like this one:
Yes the military historically such a bastion of diversity
Anyone who has ever had to work with women professionally know that's not true, women on average are not as good as men, some are very capable but it's rare and even the capable ones usually bring more drama than good to most companies, these are facts whether you want to believe it or not.
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NoMoChokeSJ
Banned
Jesus.. too bad there isn't a cringe emoji. The military is incredibly diverse. While its ideals may not be, it is made up of a wide range of women and men of different colors and backgrounds.Yes the military historically such a bastion of diversity
Anyone who has ever had to work with women professionally know that's not true, women on average are not as good as men, some are very capable but it's rare and even the capable ones usually bring more drama than good to most companies, these are facts whether you want to believe it or not.
As for the rest of your statement... there are weak links in every profession. I work in a predominantly male profession and the idiots are predominantly men.. so...
B-universe
Banned
One day - who knows, the same day you come to terms with the peculiar biography of the historical figure you've chosen as your avatar - one day you will understand that you only have to appeal to diversity if you really believe that, left to its devices, Meritocracy will ostracize certain groups.
That day, the irony of what that belief really entails will hit you like a double-decker bus.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
It’s going the same way for every industry and is one more nail in the coffin for the west.
_Justinian_
Gold Member
Sakura Doritos
Member
I think that it is perfectly fine to have a diversity quota filled game shop developing games full of filthy SJWs and new age bigots. And it’s ok to revel in it as being why the game succeeded. But here is the hitch: Make a good game first! Then pat yourselves on the back. Smirk at us lesser’s that would Still take meritocracy.
Until that great product has come out it’s nothing more that that terrible fucking movie A Wrinkle in Time. They hyped that slop as a diverse, wonderful, momentous movie because of the check boxes it ticked. And it is hot garbage.
Until that great product has come out it’s nothing more that that terrible fucking movie A Wrinkle in Time. They hyped that slop as a diverse, wonderful, momentous movie because of the check boxes it ticked. And it is hot garbage.
Maybe I was not clear. You do not hire for diversity, never.
You hire based on skills for the job, and IF they happen to be diverse, then you also hired diversity.
However, since diverse people are the minority, I would find it extremely unlikely that they are all the best people for the job, because we know that diversity = minority.
If we don't agree that diversity means minority, then this defeats the whole purpose of diversity hiring.
So if you need to hire from a group of 100 people, with 10 diverse people, I would find it extremely unlikely that the other 90 are worse. Is it possible? Yes, but with a very low probability.
This is the whole point of "diversity" hiring.
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
...What's the point of this thread? As in, what's recently happened in the industry to make this a topic?
It seems like a stealth 343i dogpile thread, but you could attribute a ton of their current problems to shitty upper management, particularly people like Bonnie Ross and maybe Bobby Lee. But you've no understanding into why they were hired originally, I can assume they must've had at least some qualifications (at least when they were first hired).
Only other controversial things of late I can think of involve shitty executives finally getting what they deserved (i.e pay cuts) at companies like EA, shitty upper management at Apple being "anti-consumer", Sony supposedly being "anti-consumer" due to locking in Avengers content, etc. Again aside from arguably the 343i stuff there's nothing which's happened of late outright dumb in gaming being a clear result of "diversity" except maybe the virtue-signaling of gaming companies for BLM but the people who made the decision to do that were mostly white (and some Asian) men and women, and that was all financially motivated on their part
Just don't see the point of these kind of threads without some recent major event to tie them to that is explicitly referenced, otherwise you're just saying a bunch of the same things other people have been saying for years and at this point I'm just kind of like "yeah, and?" Diversity or not, once you've seen enough of the idiocy in the industry at times, you realize you're still going to get shitty games with shitty gameplay, shitty business tactics, and shitty people with questionable levels of talent or merit. We're seeing some of that right now and none of that seems to be falling into the typical "diversity" bracket people like using the terminology with :S.
Nepotism exists and there are MANY examples in history that show how most of the financially powerful people in the world don't necessarily work their way into that position, they either inherit it from family or from marrying/networking their way into the position.
People might try jumping down my throat for this but Elon Musk is a relevant example of this; NASA wants to commercialize the space vector, they want ways for conglomerates to act as pseudo-arms of the government and be capable of doing certain things NASA would need to get massive clearance on (which could take forever) to roll with. Extending partnerships with companies like SpaceX also gives them a means of possibly siphoning tech from competing nations depending on what other nations companies like SpaceX do business with.
He's mainly gotten to where he is because he serves as a useful arm extension of the government and NASA; that isn't to say he hasn't put in the work, but that is hardly the only reason he's in the position he's in. The same can be said about MANY other people in various other industries too, whether it's down to family inheritance/relationship benefits, nepotism, networking you name it.
Unfortunately this would require the people who push intersectionality to accept personal responsibility, which is something they constantly run from. All of their problems, in their head, are because of other people and things supposedly outside of their control.
Every. Single. One.
It seems like a stealth 343i dogpile thread, but you could attribute a ton of their current problems to shitty upper management, particularly people like Bonnie Ross and maybe Bobby Lee. But you've no understanding into why they were hired originally, I can assume they must've had at least some qualifications (at least when they were first hired).
Only other controversial things of late I can think of involve shitty executives finally getting what they deserved (i.e pay cuts) at companies like EA, shitty upper management at Apple being "anti-consumer", Sony supposedly being "anti-consumer" due to locking in Avengers content, etc. Again aside from arguably the 343i stuff there's nothing which's happened of late outright dumb in gaming being a clear result of "diversity" except maybe the virtue-signaling of gaming companies for BLM but the people who made the decision to do that were mostly white (and some Asian) men and women, and that was all financially motivated on their part
Just don't see the point of these kind of threads without some recent major event to tie them to that is explicitly referenced, otherwise you're just saying a bunch of the same things other people have been saying for years and at this point I'm just kind of like "yeah, and?" Diversity or not, once you've seen enough of the idiocy in the industry at times, you realize you're still going to get shitty games with shitty gameplay, shitty business tactics, and shitty people with questionable levels of talent or merit. We're seeing some of that right now and none of that seems to be falling into the typical "diversity" bracket people like using the terminology with :S.
Nepotism exists and there are MANY examples in history that show how most of the financially powerful people in the world don't necessarily work their way into that position, they either inherit it from family or from marrying/networking their way into the position.
People might try jumping down my throat for this but Elon Musk is a relevant example of this; NASA wants to commercialize the space vector, they want ways for conglomerates to act as pseudo-arms of the government and be capable of doing certain things NASA would need to get massive clearance on (which could take forever) to roll with. Extending partnerships with companies like SpaceX also gives them a means of possibly siphoning tech from competing nations depending on what other nations companies like SpaceX do business with.
He's mainly gotten to where he is because he serves as a useful arm extension of the government and NASA; that isn't to say he hasn't put in the work, but that is hardly the only reason he's in the position he's in. The same can be said about MANY other people in various other industries too, whether it's down to family inheritance/relationship benefits, nepotism, networking you name it.
Unfortunately this would require the people who push intersectionality to accept personal responsibility, which is something they constantly run from. All of their problems, in their head, are because of other people and things supposedly outside of their control.
Every. Single. One.
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MiyazakiHatesKojima
Banned
Some of these women look like they've never seen a controller or an erect penis in their lives.Diversity
Talent
Bombolone
Gold Member
I would love to see the muscle of the West collaborate more often with the skill, sensibilities and gameplay systems of the East.
We would get craaaazy cool stuff, and more often.
B-universe
Banned
Let's assume - for the sake of argument - Elon wasn't already successful , and let's also assume SpaceX wasn't brought in because it promised to deliver the service at a much lower price tag than what had previously been done. Let's assume the worst, that it's so-called crony capitalism all over again, the government rolling out public dough for one of their buddies.
Isn't it clear that this wouldn't be the nature of capitalism running its course, but something else, something proprietary of mixed economies, something that would in fact disappear completely if the state were ever to get out of the economy and leave it all up to the private sector?
Assuming it's true, your point is a strong argument for more capitalism, not less.
On topic, certain countries mandate quotas in public companies, such as a minimum of 30%70% ratio between the sexes. What gives a few legislators the legitimacy to decide how a company which isn't theirs is run when no rights are being violated?
As for the purpose of this thread, hopefully it isn't to change the world. If it were, it'd be doomed. The purpose is to discuss the topic as stated in the OP and subsequent replies, in which it is no different from any other thread on GAF.
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idrago01
Banned
you don’t even understand the original point i was making that’s what’s really cringe
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idrago01
Banned
or a salad
VAVA Mk2
Member
Friends don't let friends post on ReE
idrago01
Banned
only a matter of time before these ex-reesetera vagabonds start turning the forums back into what it was
VAVA Mk2
Member
A bunch of pussies?
NoMoChokeSJ
Banned
Your whole post was cringe. If you're not married yet.. good luck.
recursive
Member
I am a hiring manager at my company. My company mandated that a minimum of 1 diverse candidate be included in the interview pool before ANY interviews can be scheduled. Its ridiculous.
idrago01
Banned
pretty much i only came back to neogaf once the crazies left but they are slowly coming back after apparently being deemed not crazy enough for resetera
B-universe
Banned
Well, I did consider it. You even quoted me, "If somebody who has managed a team at 343 or a place like it and says differently about the way things went for them, then their experiences would be interesting to hear..."
So, it would help if you shared your experience in staffing that has led you to guarantee set-asides. Because right now, I'm actually the only person on this thread who's talked about first-hand experience hiring in the current job market, so my experience may be limited, but it's the only real "experience" here so far. I'm not really interested in representing myself as the "expert" on the topic, but so many posts here are just hearsay and frankly bullshit false equivalencies about Halo Infinite being a fuck-up because Bonnie Ross went on TV talking about valuing diversity (there's about 55 women in that International Women's Day picture that's been referred to here; the company has something like 500 employees,) and I figured some actual insight from somebody who has hired people and also happens to know some 343i staffers might be worth including in the conversation. I'm not saying I'm right or that unfair shit doesn't happen, but I've heard all the attacks and jokes on diversity consideration in the work place, and in my experience, they're all pretty far from the truth.
They're even pretty far from the truth of their own argument. Like I said, there's been a lot made over Bonnie Ross's statements and that blog post about 343i (it's not clear what OP LeviJ1988 is referring to when starting the thread, "People should be hired for their talent and not because they are the minority gender or whatever," but this given the timing and also how quickly replies jumped to the Halo Infinite debacle, it seems like that's top of mind for clicks onto this thread...), but the image of a company run by somebody who says "diversity attracts diversity" and the reality of the staff make-up doesn't line up.
International Women's Day pic
General Staff pic
I'm not sure how you can look at the second picture and still think of it as a company flying a No White Dudes Allowed flag. It's a "diverse" office, but it's also a whole lot of white guys sharing the blame with all the women being called out on this thread as being not-talent.
I appreciate the use of the passive voice . "being called" - by whom?.
This is what passive voice allows the writer to do: to omit the subject but not the recipient of the action. Why would you want to omit the subject? To suggest, to insinuate that all opposition to Diversity is rooted in sexism and to bind all opposition to Diversity under one common theme: sexism, of which there's a couple of quotable, but not quoted, examples in here, or even misogyny.
Would you mind brushing up on the concept of anecdotal evidence while you're at it?
Obliged.
The difference here is that everyone is allowed their opinion. Let the public forum do its thing.
VAVA Mk2
Member
bleh
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Ten_Fold
Member
Stop hiring just because you want more black,Latino,LGBTQ, or whatever. Hire off of talent and will power, if enough people make noise I’m SURE they went to get some actual talent to help them out. Trust me I love diversity at gaming studios and different cultures and backgrounds working on games but I want those people working on the games to be at good.
idrago01
Banned
the ones trying to ram “diversity” down our throats don’t really believe certain minorities or women are capable of getting their on their own without special treatment
Sejan
Member
While I think diversity for the sake of diversity doesn’t accomplish anything other than making people feel better about themselves by checking a box, I don’t think a studio necessarily needs to be filled with the top tier talent for every position. Studios have tons of spots that simply need to be filled with competent yes-men (and women). Often the best of the best have reached those heights by doing things their own way. Too much talent can be detrimental to a team project by causing it to lose focus. It’s the ‘too many cooks in the kitchen’ problem for games. You need head chefs, but you need far more sous chefs. You need Miyamotos and Iwatas, but you also need average joe and Jane programmer.
I don’t believe that 343’s problem is either lack of talent or too much diversity. I believe that their problem is meddling from above. Pushing the game to run on XBox One, series X, series S, and a variety of PC specs has caused them to lose focus and has cost man power that could have been focused on polish. Aiming to the original Xbox one has undoubtedly cost them scope as they’ve had to downscale the project to run on much weaker hardware. Corporate meddling has been a huge detriment to this game and tons of others in the past.
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I believe another problem here is that the project leads don’t seem to understand the IP that they are working with. This is often a huge issue with giving a big IP to a studio that didn’t come up with it.
I don’t believe that 343’s problem is either lack of talent or too much diversity. I believe that their problem is meddling from above. Pushing the game to run on XBox One, series X, series S, and a variety of PC specs has caused them to lose focus and has cost man power that could have been focused on polish. Aiming to the original Xbox one has undoubtedly cost them scope as they’ve had to downscale the project to run on much weaker hardware. Corporate meddling has been a huge detriment to this game and tons of others in the past.
Edit:
I believe another problem here is that the project leads don’t seem to understand the IP that they are working with. This is often a huge issue with giving a big IP to a studio that didn’t come up with it.
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ULTROS!
People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
I dunno but it seems like the Western devs are pushing a lot of these diversity things rather than the Japanese devs and in the end, the “diversity driven” games can end up subpar. Somehow I like my Japanese games a lot more because they’re fun
gow3isben
Member
Talent = win.
Diversity is irrelevant in that equation, but it takes just as much priority if not more at times.
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Raonak
Banned
It's fine if you don't care about diversity.
Plenty of people do, and it doesn't take much effort to get a talented AND diverse team.
greenteaforme
Member
I agree that people should be hired based purely on skill and nothing else. There have always been "diverse" people working on video games, women have been working in the industry forever. It's only recently that there's been such a focus on it and a push for more women and people of color in the games industry, which I think is honestly insulting to the people who were already working and thriving in the business.
I used to want to be a game developer, and an anxiety that would always come to my mind was, if I get a career doing this, will I only be hired because I'm female and nothing else? For any sane woman or minority, it must feel so patronizing and shitty to feel like you were hired to check some boxes instead of what you could bring to the company.
I used to want to be a game developer, and an anxiety that would always come to my mind was, if I get a career doing this, will I only be hired because I'm female and nothing else? For any sane woman or minority, it must feel so patronizing and shitty to feel like you were hired to check some boxes instead of what you could bring to the company.
Honestly, I think the state of corporate or even company culture is “how much can I get out of this place?” Bringing value to a company is not often valued because your position is either viewed as valueless or overpriced, or your potential value/competency is seen as a threat to your immediate superiors. It’s the Peter Principle writ large.
There are a lot of people that see diversity hiring as a legitimate opportunity to advance their careers and see their current employment as another notch on their resume. They see the “game” and gladly play it for what it’s worth.
I don’t think this mentality is so ubiquitous and I’d like to think there are decent companies and decent people. I live in NYC and Dog Eat Dog is a fact of life here. But what I see and hear about these companies reeks of typical selfish narcissism, something I see on a daily basis.
notseqi
Member
...Person of hair colour?
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