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Digital Foundry: Developers Having Difficult Time Scaling games back to PS4/Xbox One specs
- Thread starter xStoyax
- Start date
Vroadstar
Member
Not always.. but in the last couple of decades they had plenty of bad luck, while the Real Madrid got all the glory (sometimes undeservedly). So Playstation would be the Real Madrid and the Xbox the Atlético de Madrid. You will have to learn to suffer.
Losing in the last couple of decades seems a lot, but yes thanks, totally got the comparison, it's pretty apt
TLZ
Banned
And you believe them?
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Yes of course, but the point is, Series X has a cross-gen policy for 2 years for their first party, PS5 doesnt.
So MS devs will still be trying to make their games scale to a 10 yr old machine in 2022.
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SoraNoKuni
Member
I feel bad for MS 1st party studios, they probably had nightmares when MS announced to them that they have to develop for series S too(And probably that's why we didn't even have a glimpse of in game footage, and a gimped halo).
They will probably just cancel that smaller console at this point.
They will probably just cancel that smaller console at this point.
mrBarrelNut
Member
Graphics is. Just lower resolution and texture filtering, LOD, effects quality etc. Graphics are inherently scalable.
Game logic and CPU usage on the other hand is not. You can lower the framerate to reduce CPU usage, or you can lower the animation rate compared to the framerate and lower the concurrent number of enemies on the screen etc. but I guess in this case (Zen2 -> Jaguar) simplifications in AI and various bits of game logic might be needed as well. But it can be done, obviously, modern PC games can be played on some really shitty CPU:s as well.
GymWolf
Member
Dude i was joking
Stilton Disco
Member
Almost as if only one company has been talking about how they don't believe in generations, have the worst kept secret in the industry with the XSS handicap console, and said that there's no reason anyone should be 'left behind' on old hardware.
We know when it comes to next gen Sony are all in. MS however had their flagship franchise in Halo try to please everyone by being crossgen, and end up a complete dogs dinner.
Even if they're not pressuring third parties to support XO, or even forcing them to make XSS versions, we already know their own studio's games have very publicly showed their approach to acting like generations don't matter is a failure.
As such, do you really not see why only one platform holder is copping flak for this? Because if so, I dont think it's everyone else that is biased here.
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Relativ9
Member
It's a flawed comparison, but imagine the minimum vs recommended specs on the PC version of a game. Often the recommended specs are somewhere near twice the hardware capabilities of whatever consoles the game also launched for, while the minimum specs vary more significantly but can often be a bit less then a third as powerful as the recommended specs (especially in GPU). The PC port of Horizon Zero Dawn (since that's the most recent example) has a recommended GPU with 4.4TF so quite a bit more than the base PS4's 1.8TF (about 244% more powerful). With this obviously comes a lot of graphical improvements, and there is evidence that the PC port of Horizon Zero Dawn is less then ideally optimized, but regardless, 244% is a hell of a lot less of a difference than the giant gap between 1.3TF on the Xbox One and 12TF on the Series X (which is a staggering 923% more powerful).
(For reference the PS5 is only 556% more powerful than the PS4), and obviously disclaimer in that Teraflops isn't the end all be all of power-comparisons and there are many other factors that contribute to the "power" of a machine, but non-the-less Teraflops are a decent indicator and one of the only stats we have to work with right now.
(For reference the PS5 is only 556% more powerful than the PS4), and obviously disclaimer in that Teraflops isn't the end all be all of power-comparisons and there are many other factors that contribute to the "power" of a machine, but non-the-less Teraflops are a decent indicator and one of the only stats we have to work with right now.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Are you seriously telling me Halo is the ONLY first party game MS will release within the first 2 years of Xbox Series X? You do realise what you're implying is way worse than having to scale down to a netbook CPU and 5400rpm HDD. Something is better than nothing.
Lupin3
Targeting terrorists with a D-Pad
Stop it! You can't use irony here. This is GAF after all...
GHG
Member
Honestly they should just bite the bullet and reverse the policy as soon as possible. Yes it's contradictory to what they've previously said, but it wouldn't be the first time in recent weeks and things can't get much worse at the moment. Doing it now would also get all the bad news out of the way so that they can start a fresh new PR campaign that is strong and consistent in it's messaging.
It would be the right thing to do and it would be liberating, both for them (from a PR perspective) and for their developers.
No, I think Forza is slated for next year, isn't it? But that's not cross gen do th is 2 year support period is obviously not gonna happen anyway.
But I don't think they've announced anything else, have they?
TBiddy
Member
Forza was in "early development", so it's not going to happen next year I think.
Krisprolls
Banned
I'm surprised. I think they had no trouble scaling back graphics to Xbox One level, especially on Halo Infinite. They just did it directly on the Series X for some reason.
If anything, you could even say they scaled it back to Xbox 360.
If anything, you could even say they scaled it back to Xbox 360.
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Coulomb_Barrier
Member
So it looks like this for MS First Party:
Launch/2020: ?
2021: Halo Infinite (cross gen)
2022: -
2023: Forza (next gen only)
When MS announced they'd support XB1 owners for 2 years, they only really meant they'd support them with one game?
Well, in any case, I don't think they've announced anything that's likely to be out next year.
Krisprolls
Banned
this is the difference people want to see during a generation leap
Then again, you can't be more photorealistic than photorealism.
Diminishing returns are here to stay.
That ignores first party games we know are cross-gen and are coming at or shortly after the SX launch, such as Grounded, Gears Tactics and Flight Simulator. Psychonauts will be there too.
Not to mention there's almost definitely unannounced games.
GymWolf
Member
We are still light years from actual photorealism, even tlou2 is still far far away from stuf like love\death and robots on netflix (and even that stuff is still not photorealistic)
do people talked about diminishing returns after the hellblade 2 trailer? no, because that is a clear generation jump, diminishing returns my ass...
the only genre who almost achieved photorealism are driving games, i saw some screens or gif that are identical to real life, or pretty close.
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Jaguar Victory
Member
Just a few more months and we can move this discussion forward. I can't wait to actually be hands on with next gen games 
Krisprolls
Banned
My point is the gaps get smaller. As you admit yourself, you can't make a generational gap on DriveClub since it already looks like real life. You see it while you say you don't see it.
It's also true of cutscenes.
That's what diminishing returns make.
Michael Hawk
Member
Unsurprised. Developers don't want to make new games for 82 different platforms vs just one. Imagine being paid to shoot a video in 4K then being told that it has to look beautiful on an iPod Nano.
BlueXImpulse
Banned
No. Because it's not gameplay or close to it. They've barely started development on the game. It was an in-engine render on unknown hardware and the resolution was sub-4K and 24fps. Hellblade 2 isn't the bar for anything, it's "fake".
Now, Horizon 2, that's next gen.
Exactly. You will see improved character models, physics, animation, npc count etc. But it just won't be as big a jump as PS3 to PS4 because we're already getting rather close to photorealism.
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Mr.ODST
Member
Issue for me is we still have not seen much footage of ANYTHING running on the actual consoles themselves, When both consoles release we can finally see whats bullshit and what isnt, MS seriously need to drop the Series S and Xbox One and One X, they have a beast of a console with literally nothing going for it.
GymWolf
Member
No i clearly said that only the driving games already achieved photorealism (and stuff like flight simulator) but we are still light years in the other genres.
that city shot on infamous second son still look like gamey-ass graphic, same for the character model.
Have you readed the example with love death and robots? that stuff is a 1-2 gen away, we have a lot of room for noticeable improvements and it's not even a discussion because we have proof of more advanced graphics in cg movies (and even them are still not fully photorealistic).
it's still early to talk about diminishing returns imo even if i understand what you say.
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geordiemp
Member
RE8 supposedly dropped last gen, but no official confrmation so lets wait on that.
Jaguar and HDD probably mean allot more work to make the game run smoothly, 4-5 years for AAA is too costly.
If next gen allows a 2-3 year development, maybe its a financial decsion for 3rd parties........ Its up to them what they make.
Jaguar and HDD probably mean allot more work to make the game run smoothly, 4-5 years for AAA is too costly.
If next gen allows a 2-3 year development, maybe its a financial decsion for 3rd parties........ Its up to them what they make.
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Krisprolls
Banned
It may be too early to talk about full photo realism, but diminishing returns exist since the dawn of gaming.
The gap between atari 2600 and nes was huge, a lot bigger than the gap between nes and snes. The gap between ps3 and ps4 was even smaller. Returns are diminishing.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
I know because all those games are already out. I was asking which new Series X games will have to be cross gen for first 2 years.
So far I know only Craig, but I'm sure there will be something next year too.
GymWolf
Member
it's a in-engine cinematic (they said real time if i remember well), exactly the same thing that tlou2 does during cutscene, and that stuff is probably gonna be surpassed in a couple of years by ND or other big devs.
but even if it is fake, my points stands, HB2 is a clear example that we are still far from diminishing returns for the simple fact that people is impressed by that trailer, it's a clear generation jump and like i repeated many times, even hb2 is far from movie cg quality, so once again, what the fuck are these diminishing returns if we are still far away from the better graphics in the market?? we have a couple of gens to get there, talking about diminishing return now is silly.
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Dee Dah Dave
Member
Most of them don’t get games running properly on current hardware so this is no surprise
TBiddy
Member
2020: Battle Toads, Flight Simulator (Published by XGS), Tell Me Why, Wasteland 3
2021: Halo, Gears Tactics (most likely, unless they release it in 2020), Psychonauts 2
Outside that, who knows.
GymWolf
Member
yeah i understand the concept, but it's not the case here, or at least not on a level where we are not gonna be impressed by the graphics during nextgen, spiderman morales is just not "wow" material because too similar to the ps4 game, horizon and ratchet are already better wow material.
We have proof that graphics can get far better because we have proof of better graphics outside of the gaming world, and it's a matter of power, when PS10 is gonna have the power to generate pixar quality videogames then we can talk again about diminishing returns, not now.
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TBiddy
Member
Stop writing in blue. Thanks.
Grounded is in early access, but isn't "officially" launched. The rest aren't available on console or in the case of Psychonauts, available anywhere.
You're ignoring first party games because it makes your list look more barren. All of those games will be cross-gen, likely in in the first few months.
If you had five first party Sony titles in 20/21 you'd be thrilled, so why ignore that Xbox will have at least that when you're critisizing them? They might not be games you'd like or would play, but that doesn't make them any less cross gen or any less first party.
I think the point is more to identify games that weren't inevitably going to be cross gen ANYWAY, regardless of the stated MS policy. So we can judge the actual effects of that policy.
Battletoads isn't pushing any boundaries technically, so obviously that's going to be cross gen. Similar for Gears Tactics, which is also already out.
Grounded and Psychonauts were both likely well into development before those studios were acquired, so not really relevant to this apparent diktat that first party games should be cross gen. They'd have been developed for cross gen all along.
RaySoft
Member
This is a no-brainer really. It's not as much about the TFLOPs as it is with the system in itself.
You can't scale when the lower targets can't even cope with the games overall framework/internal design.
Jaguar CPU, spindle HDDs, lower bandwidth. at that point it's easier to use the lower hw as base target and rather scale up from there.
Either way you do it, the next-gen consoles will be gimped "ports".
"Optimized for Series X" my ass...
You can't scale when the lower targets can't even cope with the games overall framework/internal design.
Jaguar CPU, spindle HDDs, lower bandwidth. at that point it's easier to use the lower hw as base target and rather scale up from there.
Either way you do it, the next-gen consoles will be gimped "ports".
"Optimized for Series X" my ass...
cragarmi
Member
I alluded to something similar earlier, money hats are not the only reasons Devs are choosing Sony for exclusive deals.
I believe Scorn and Medium were signed later, after the damage had been done. MS has done more U turns before this gen has even started.
I believe Scorn and Medium were signed later, after the damage had been done. MS has done more U turns before this gen has even started.
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Phrixotrichus
Banned
150+ million install base vs...0 so far.
Any big budget production in the next year will either need "incentives" from the platform holders to be next gen exclusive or it will need to be cross gen to reach as many customers as possible. That`s not something new though. The first 1-2 years are always the cross gen phase where the last gen is slowly faded out while the next gen install base grows.
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cragarmi
Member
They used to only have 2 years between games. Assuming they’ve had people (including outsourcing like they do) working on car and track modeling while they’ve been working on the game engine, physics systems, etc. over the first couple of years, then I think holiday 2021 should be quite doable for them.
TBiddy
Member
From what I understood, they've 'reset' the game. I assume that means starting from scratch more or less. Not necessarily the track and car models, but engine, physics, lightning, audio etc.