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[Fake]

Both of which would be less then going external. It doesnt take a team of a hundred people to make a port

Oh yeah? How do you know? The team need to make the game at the deadline and after the deadline are close without the game getting gold there are three possibilities: Wasting even more resources without knowing the game will be finish, hire a new team to help or cancel/delay the game.

The money I talking about vary between the company you hire for help. More skilled team requires more money.

 

[Redlight]

A few months back, 'smart delivery' was being touted as a feature.

The point of 'smart delivery' is simply convenience. Yes, you get a free upgrade for those titles, but the key is being able to launch a game from your account anywhere and being able to access the correct version of that game. It's not just upgrades that count, but also downgrades.

Who wants downgrades, right? I buy a Series X game why would I need it?

Well, imagine you buy a shiny new Series X on day one along with a shiny Series X version of 'Cross-Gen sports 2020'. It's great, I'm loving it, I don't even need 'smart delivery' do I?

Unless I visit a friend who only has an Xbox One and no copy of the game, or maybe I have a man-cave with my recently replaced One X in it. Doesn't matter, I can sign in to my account and play the Xbox One version on his older console or on my One X.

No fuss, no drama, no further purchase required.

'Smart Delivery' is a neat feature, not just a 'free patch' or evidence of some terrible failing. I swear, some people can turn anything into a negative.

 

[Shmunter]

The point of 'smart delivery' is simply convenience. Yes, you get a free upgrade for those titles, but the key is being able to launch a game from your account anywhere and being able to access the correct version of that game. It's not just upgrades that count, but also downgrades.

Who wants downgrades, right? I buy a Series X game why would I need it?

Well, imagine you buy a shiny new Series X on day one along with a shiny Series X version of 'Cross-Gen sports 2020'. It's great, I'm loving it, I don't even need 'smart delivery' do I?

Unless I visit a friend who only has an Xbox One and no copy of the game, or maybe I have a man-cave with my recently replaced One X in it. Doesn't matter, I can sign in to my account and play the Xbox One version on his older console or on my One X.

No fuss, no drama, no further purchase required.

'Smart Delivery' is a neat feature, not just a 'free patch' or evidence of some terrible failing. I swear, some people can turn anything into a negative.

I thought it was just a fancy name for Pro or One X style patches just carried over to XsX patches. Seemed to work ok there before FancyName(TM)

 

[Kumomeme]

And yet some developers manage to do magic on these old crappy CPUs.
Makes me wonder who these developers are that complain.

its not magic if it easy to achieve.

 

[Redlight]

I thought it was just a fancy name for Pro or One X style patches just carried over to XsX patches. Seemed to work ok there before FancyName(TM)

Well of course you did, but it's not.

It's a neat little feature that works in both directions. As I said, if you buy a supported Series X game - even on disk - you can take it to your friends house and play the One X version on his machine. Try doing that with a 'patch'.

It won't change the world, but it's a quality of life thing - like shared gold accounts, backwards compat or automatic cloud saves, It's also a new feature and not the same as free upgrade patches, hence the 'fancy name'.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

Good. Sooner cross-gen ends, the better. Halo Infinite on Series X/Series S and PC. Done.

 

[DinoD]

Clearly something is going on behind the scenes. A lot of people point to 343 and Halo as a problem but all of Microsofts studios weren’t prepared for this gen. Not even Forza was ready which to me is a giant red flag.

Me thinks. In a bid to outdo Sony on the hardware front, they were waiting more to get better hardware from AMD. That's why their development kits went out much latter than Sony's. Can't be sure, but I think only few developers received first kits late last year. Having the 2 different SKUs probably also played the part.

Regards

 

[Shmunter]

Well of course you did, but it's not.

It's a neat little feature that works in both directions. As I said, if you buy a supported Series X game - even on disk - you can take it to your friends house and play the One X version on his machine. Try doing that with a 'patch'.

It won't change the world, but it's a quality of life thing - like shared gold accounts, backwards compat or automatic cloud saves, It's also a new feature and not the same as free upgrade patches, hence the 'fancy name'.

No idea how you see any difference between the current games seamlessly working and patching themselves depending on the PS4/One versions of hardware.

But your right, it’s not the same and not for the reasons you think, Smart delivery is actually turning into a crapshoot. You may not even get an upgrade patch for XsX even if it exists instead forced to pay for it as with Control example. These complications don’t exist between PS4, Pro, One & One X currently - shit currently is seamless.

 

[bitbydeath]

Me thinks. In a bid to outdo Sony on the hardware front, they were waiting more to get better hardware from AMD. That's why their development kits went out much latter than Sony's. Can't be sure, but I think only few developers received first kits late last year. Having the 2 different SKUs probably also played the part.

Regards

Good point but the devs shouldn’t have to wait for devkits to commence building.

 

[sainraja]

The point of 'smart delivery' is simply convenience. Yes, you get a free upgrade for those titles, but the key is being able to launch a game from your account anywhere and being able to access the correct version of that game. It's not just upgrades that count, but also downgrades.

Who wants downgrades, right? I buy a Series X game why would I need it?

Well, imagine you buy a shiny new Series X on day one along with a shiny Series X version of 'Cross-Gen sports 2020'. It's great, I'm loving it, I don't even need 'smart delivery' do I?

Unless I visit a friend who only has an Xbox One and no copy of the game, or maybe I have a man-cave with my recently replaced One X in it. Doesn't matter, I can sign in to my account and play the Xbox One version on his older console or on my One X.

No fuss, no drama, no further purchase required.

'Smart Delivery' is a neat feature, not just a 'free patch' or evidence of some terrible failing. I swear, some people can turn anything into a negative.

Um, I know what it is. lol

 

[Redlight]

No idea how you see any difference between the current games seamlessly working and upgrading themselves depending on the PS4/One versions of hardware.

But your right, it’s not the same and not for the reasons you think, Smart delivery is actually turning into a crapshoot. You may not even get an upgrade patch for XsX even if it exists instead forced to pay for it as with Control example. These complications don’t exist between PS4, Pro, One & One X currently - shit currently is seamless.

It' simple. If you have a PS5 copy of Valhalla (a cross-gen game) which you take to your friend's place, and he only has a PS4, will you be able to play it? You would with a Series X version and Smart Delivery.

You do realise that the Control situation is identical on both platforms? I guess Sony's 'seamless' system is busted? At least by your measure.

Smart delivery is a feature, not a mandate. It's nice to have, different and better than the auto-patch upgrade system we currently have.

 

[Redlight]

Um, I know what it is. lol

Well, you do now.

 

[sainraja]

You are missing, probably deliberately, the fact that smart delivery is literally for games made for the XB1 that also have a Series X patch, like Cyberpunk, Gears5, etc.

It’s got nothing to do with forcing developers to port down their next gen games. Absolutely nothing. Smart delivery *is* a feature, because like you said, devs will be making cross gen games that are just current gen + better assets for next gen, and smart delivery means that the current gen owners don’t have to download those 50GB of 4K textures. That’s all it is.

Amazing that that was your reply to me saying posters in here lack critical thinking skills lol. Perfect example.

Again, you're missing the point I was making in response to the first post I quoted of yours. The narrative has changed but before now it was pretty much understood that they wanted the content to be where you are (even when they said this, I wasn't thinking it'd be forever.) Point being, they were all in on 'smart delivery', something they decided to "brand" when it's been done before just not been made a huge deal of.

 

[Hawk269]

Well of course you did, but it's not.

It's a neat little feature that works in both directions. As I said, if you buy a supported Series X game - even on disk - you can take it to your friends house and play the One X version on his machine. Try doing that with a 'patch'.

It won't change the world, but it's a quality of life thing - like shared gold accounts, backwards compat or automatic cloud saves, It's also a new feature and not the same as free upgrade patches, hence the 'fancy name'.

My wife intends to get a Series S while I am getting a Series X in my game room. From time to time, I do play games downstairs and Smart Delivery is what I am looking forward too because I can log into my account and the game that I bought on my Series X will play on her Series S but at that settings.

Some people here tend to take anything positive and try to turn it into a negative.

 

[Shmunter]

It' simple. If you have a PS5 copy of Valhalla (a cross-gen game) which you take to your friend's place, and he only has a PS4, will you be able to play it? You would with a Series X version and Smart Delivery.

You do realise that the Control situation is identical on both platforms? I guess Sony's 'seamless' system is busted? At least by your measure.

Smart delivery is a feature, not a mandate. It's nice to have, different and better than the auto-patch upgrade system we currently have.

Xbox one og / ps4 cant even read 100gb bluray which I assume will be the disc medium for next gen so you’re getting ahead of yourself on this.

Apart from that if Smartdelivery is not a mandate, how do you know ubisoft will be using the feature and not going by their own rules - which could be anything, one way, both ways, no ways.

I said it’s seamless for current console lineup, and a crapshoot for next gen, point in proof as already highlighted over these posts.

But sure, good idea, 0 execution. Your defending marketing gobbly gook despite apparent reality

 

[DinoD]

Good point but the devs shouldn’t have to wait for devkits to commence building.

Agreed. Its not so much around the late commencement. I suspect its more a challenge of getting the game adjusted (optimised) to the previously projected target(s). The sooner you get the dev kit, sooner that process begins. In MS case there could also be the additional effort (both development and marketing one) to match the experience to price/performance of 2 different SKU's. You wouldn't want for your game to run like crap on S and great on X, but also you don't want to end up with no tangible/visible differentiation between the two.

Regards

 

[Neo_game]

Why are devs trying to scale down to the previous generation though?

No one is forcing them or even asking them to. Of course scaling a game made for 10-12TF is going to struggle running on a shitty 10 year old netbook cpu and 1.4/1.8TF of power.

What is even the point of this? Is it an attempt to say that the *other way* is hard too? Scaling up is infinitely easier than scaling down. Scaling down basically means you have to make a whole new version of the game.

Also I hope the irony of now saying DF know what they’re talking about isn’t lost on the non fanboys on here.

It is the other way round. Cross gen games are made on base, current console in minds that is why there is limitations.

 

[Shmunter]

My wife intends to get a Series S while I am getting a Series X in my game room. From time to time, I do play games downstairs and Smart Delivery is what I am looking forward too because I can log into my account and the game that I bought on my Series X will play on her Series S but at that settings.

Some people here tend to take anything positive and try to turn it into a negative.

Thank god for Smartdelivery, imagine you had a One and a One X today. You’d be screwed without it.

 

[MrFunSocks]

Is Xbox Series S is real and 4TF, they better get used to it.

Series S has the exact same CPU as Series X, so no, no need to get used to having cpu problems.

 

[MrFunSocks]

It is the other way round. Cross gen games are made on base, current console in minds that is why there is limitations.

Read the source. It’s not about the other way around. Devs are making the next gen version then trying to shoe horn it into the old consoles too.

 

[ShadowWolf712]

You guys believe Digital Foundry when its convenient and call him a FUD otherwise.

"Him"

...can already tell this is gonna be one of those threads.

 

[Danjin44]

?????........Scaling back!? I could be very wrong here, but games that are cross gen are usually made for pervious gen first then scale them up for next gen...isn't that what they usually do?

 

[TTOOLL]

From the reports the S is literally an X with less CUs on the gpu and a bit less RAM. It’s literally a 1080p max Series X. There’s no porting to be done. Lower the resolution and possibly LOD of some characters and models and you’re done.

What about ssd? I/O in general? I don't think it's that's so easy, but I'm not an expert...

 

[LittleBigGamer]

I guess now we like DF again.

It's not DF the problem.

It was ''dictator''.

 

[kraspkibble]

how about this crazy idea?

don't release games for XB1/PS4 anymore and just focus on XSX/PS5??

 

[Humdinger]

One of the things DF (John) pointed out, I believe, was that if Halo Infinite is gimped by having to be compatible with Xbox One, that will affect Halo Infinite for its whole lifecycle. Remember we're not just talking about a normal game here, or even a normal "tentpole" game, but a platform for GaaS -- a foundation for a 10-year plan, similar to Destiny. If you start with a gimped game as a foundation, you're stuck with that gimped foundation for 10 years.

I can understand why MS did it. They don't want to leave that 40+ mil. install base behind. They are prioritizing GP subscribers, who love 'free' access to the Day 1 AAA MS exclusives, which have been pretty scarce lately. I don't think MS are going to change their mind about keeping it compatible with X1.

I also wonder how much Gamepass itself is holding Halo Infinite back. It seems to me that if your ambition is to have your games stream not just on the XSX and PC, but also on cell phones and the like, then you've got to make it compatible for those devices, too, at some level -- not to run natively on them, of course, but at least to stream to and display on them.

 

[T-Cake]

One of the things DF (John) pointed out, I believe, was that if Halo Infinite is gimped by having to be compatible with Xbox One, that will affect Halo Infinite for its whole lifecycle. Remember we're not just talking about a normal game here, or even a normal "tentpole" game, but a platform for GaaS -- a foundation for a 10-year plan, similar to Destiny. If you start with a gimped game as a foundation, you're stuck with that gimped foundation for 10 years.

Was Destiny 1 gimped by having to run on Xbox 360/PS3?

 

[Humdinger]

Was Destiny 1 gimped by having to run on Xbox 360/PS3?

I don't know.

 

[Redlight]

Xbox one og / ps4 cant even read 100gb bluray which I assume will be the disc medium for next gen so you’re getting ahead of yourself on this.

Apart from that if Smartdelivery is not a mandate, how do you know ubisoft will be using the feature and not going by their own rules - which could be anything, one way, both ways, no ways.

I said it’s seamless for current console lineup, and a crapshoot for next gen, point in proof as already highlighted over these posts.

But sure, good idea, 0 execution. Your defending marketing gobbly gook despite apparent reality

Not true.

The disc process will work, even on the og Xbox one, though it most certainly won't work on a PS4. Sadly, Playstation doesn't have 'Smart Delivery' or any equivalent. That's why a handy name like 'Smart Delivery' is useful.

Will 'Smart delivery' be universal? On third-party games no, but on the other hand, it won't exist at all on Playstation, will it?

Any existing system of free upgrades is likely to continue, though those patch methods don't have all the features of 'Smart Delivery'.

How do I know that 'Valhalla' is supporting 'Smart Delivery'? Well, because they've already confirmed it. So have Cyberpunk and Watchdogs.

You're trying way too hard to discredit a clear benefit simply because you won't have access to it.

 

[Kerotan]

Sony made the right decision dumping last gen for their big ps5 games.

 

[JonnyMP3]

PS5 Smart Delivery: Does PlayStation 5 Have Smart Delivery for PS4 Games?

Can you upgrade your PS4 titles like Xbox Series X?

www.pushsquare.com

 

[Hoho for breakfast]

I could see myself absolutely despising this if I were a dev. I wish we could just move forward instead of having to cater to old tech but obviously it unfortunately doesn't always make sense business wise. Frustrating stuff and it feels like nothing but a waste for those like me who just want the newest and best.

 

[Shmunter]

Not true.

The disc process will work, even on the og Xbox one, though it most certainly won't work on a PS4. Sadly, Playstation doesn't have 'Smart Delivery' or any equivalent. That's why a handy name like 'Smart Delivery' is useful.

Will 'Smart delivery' be universal? On third-party games no, but on the other hand, it won't exist at all on Playstation, will it?

Any existing system of free upgrades is likely to continue, though those patch methods don't have all the features of 'Smart Delivery'.

How do I know that 'Valhalla' is supporting 'Smart Delivery'? Well, because they've already confirmed it. So have Cyberpunk and Watchdogs.

You're trying way too hard to discredit a clear benefit simply because you won't have access to it.

.My shmatdelivereee ish better then yours...nihayyh

That’s pretty much what I read there, carry on

 

[tkscz]

Every bit of the base XBO would hold back a game released on XSX if they put any focus on scaling the games back.

GDDR3 RAM vs GDDR6 is a huge joke in every sense. Smaller amount of bandwidth and lower clocks causes a huge drop in data transfer rates. GDDR3 has a known max of 6.8GB/s while GDDR6 has a known max of 768GB/s. GDDR6's transfers 113 times more data than GDDR3.

The GPU in the XBO only has 12 CUs vs the 52 in the XSX and were based on mid-ranged Radeon HD 7000 cards vs the XSX being based on RDNA2 GPU. Polaris doesn't come close to the capabilities of Navi, let alone Navi's successor.

And do I really need to talk about the CPU? Jaguars were bad even when the XBO was released. It know they wanted cheap power saving CPUs, so I can understand going with AMD, but shit, they'd be better off going with an old 6-core Phenom than the Jaguar.

I understand that for market reasons they have to stick with the base, but it would be a LOT easier on developers if they only had to scale back to the XBX, while the CPU still holds it back and 12GBs of GDDR5 is still no where near the power of 16GB of GDDR6 (you'd need about 24 - 32GB of GDDR5 to reach that), it would still take a load off their shoulders.

 

[Redlight]

.My shmatdelivereee ish better then yours...nihayyh

That’s pretty much what I read there, carry on

'I don't have an counter argument' is what I just read. Facts can be a pain in the arse, can't they?

 

[Shmunter]

'I don't have an counter argument' is what I just read. Facts can be a pain in the arse, can't they?

First there was electricity, then the motorcar, and now we have Smartdelivery.

It’s a miracle of modern science. Normies can’t appreciate how revolutionary it is and it takes someone very special to see it for what it is. You are that special someone. Spread your wisdom far and wide for the betterment of humanity, I certainly learnt from it.

 

[Thirty7ven]

'I don't have an counter argument' is what I just read. Facts can be a pain in the arse, can't they?

You're talking gibberish.

 

[JonnyMP3]

PS5 Smart Delivery: Does PlayStation 5 Have Smart Delivery for PS4 Games?

Can you upgrade your PS4 titles like Xbox Series X?

www.pushsquare.com

I'm either blocked or it's selective ignorance.
But yeah... Smart delivery all but in name.

 

[oldergamer]

Oh yeah? How do you know? The team need to make the game at the deadline and after the deadline are close without the game getting gold there are three possibilities: Wasting even more resources without knowing the game will be finish, hire a new team to help or cancel/delay the game.

The money I talking about vary between the company you hire for help. More skilled team requires more money.

How do i know? well i spent 20 + years in the game industry with 6 of those working for a company that did nothing but game porting. It doesn't take a huge team to make a port, especially when its to a platform that generally uses the same tools. You don't know what you are speaking of.

 

[REDRZA MWS]

Some of those games are still just CGI and ideas though, you won't play them until 2023 or 2024. Remember Rare admitted they don't even know what kind of game Everwild would be, and for Fable they're still hiring every major position including game director if I remember correctly.

You have no idea when those games are coming out. 2023 and 2024 are pure tales from your ass.

 

[oldergamer]

In any case it's just needlessly complicating the development process and spending resources where they are probably not best suited. Just picture for a moment, the money MS put towards building a native XBO version of Halo Infinite, could be put towards funding one of their other 1st-party games.

Goodness knows they deserve it, since seemingly many of their 1st-party teams have had to provide resources to 343i to help them fix the game up (taking away resources from their own current projects, btw).

Porting doesn't complicate the process at all, or at the very least shouldn't if they are doing it the right way. The team not making the port isn't making decisions regarding the low end platform. That is up to the team handling it. This happens ALL the time in game development. More often being the times you are dealing with completely different platforms. Port teams tend to be fairly small to begin with and deal with optimizing and reducing the memory footprint. Even still we heard they had over 400 people at 343i, how many resources do you think were dedicated to xbone? Seriously, i can assure you it's not a large team. it's also money you are spending anyways if you paid someone else to do it for you ( and that also is a risk for leaking information).

343 might need to go back to using unreal engine since it is fully mature and they want to get the game out on time. I'm certain there would be nothing they could not do with unreal 5 compared to something created in house.

From the sounds of things ( rumors) the development pipeline when using the slipspace engine is less than ideal. Less than stable, and simply not suitable for a team of hundreds of people. They did say the plan was to make a game bigger than the last two games combined. They need to focus less on the problems of a broken development pipeline where the app never works, to artists and developers being free to put things into the game and see them without code/art check-ins breaking/bottlenecking the entire process.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Porting doesn't complicate the process at all, or at the very least shouldn't if they are doing it the right way. The team not making the port isn't making decisions regarding the low end platform. That is up to the team handling it. This happens ALL the time in game development. More often being the times you are dealing with completely different platforms. Port teams tend to be fairly small to begin with and deal with optimizing and reducing the memory footprint. Even still we heard they had over 400 people at 343i, how many resources do you think were dedicated to xbone? Seriously, i can assure you it's not a large team. it's also money you are spending anyways if you paid someone else to do it for you ( and that also is a risk for leaking information).

343 might need to go back to using unreal engine since it is fully mature and they want to get the game out on time. I'm certain there would be nothing they could not do with unreal 5 compared to something created in house.

From the sounds of things ( rumors) the development pipeline when using the slipspace engine is less than ideal. Less than stable, and simply not suitable for a team of hundreds of people. They did say the plan was to make a game bigger than the last two games combined. They need to focus less on the problems of a broken development pipeline where the app never works, to artists and developers being free to put things into the game and see them without code/art check-ins breaking/bottlenecking the entire process.

Again, you keep focusing on things being possible not being a distraction and not wasting development time nor reducing scope of your next generation product: you can do it, it just increases the cost of making the game and makes the development pipeline and testing / certification more complex. I am not sure why this is even up for debate.

 

[Krisprolls]

You have no idea when those games are coming out. 2023 and 2024 are pure tales from your ass.

Because nowadays, no big game is made in 2 years. Everwild is only an idea right now, they don't know what it is (watch Rare interview). 3 to 4 years is a safe bet.

 

[Kerotan Frog]

Sony has the right idea. Abandon ship! It was a lovely voyage PS4, but its time for a nice rest.

 

[DavJay]

I want to see halo infinite one the genesis. How far can they scale back until realizing doing that is hurting their next gen console.

 

[Frito_Pendejo]

I understand what Spencer was trying to accomplish. He didn’t want to leave the fans behind that can’t afford the new systems but you have to move on. Nobody wants a new system that is being held back trying to keep games running on outdated hardware. Just let it die already.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

Clearly something is going on behind the scenes. A lot of people point to 343 and Halo as a problem but all of Microsofts studios weren’t prepared for this gen. Not even Forza was ready which to me is a giant red flag.

Good point. A Forza not being ready for launch is a strange one. The devs there have been on a 2-year dev cadence for ages, I expected them to be very for launch out of all the franchises.

I think having to create FOUR versions of the game (XB1, XSX, XSS and PC) is taking its toll on developers there. All 4 versions need to be bug tested and optimised, scaled back or streamlined, ready for simulataneous launch.

 

[Represent.]

Remember when Phil Spencer and xbox faithful tried to convince us that developing for old ass last gen hardware wouldn't hold games back?

LOCKHART is literally the WORST idea in modern gaming history. It needs to be canceled. Or else literally every single 3rd party and MS game will be restricted/constrained trash. Sony exclusives will mop the floor with the rest of the industry, again, if this machine is not canceled.

 

[RoboFu]

I think this is hyperbole. Fir one there isn’t many games that have been made from the ground up for next gen hardware at this time.

 

[Razvedka]

How exactly did people think that 343 was 'hitting 120fps' in multiplayer for the XSX version of Halo Infinite? Because it's fundamentally constrained by being an XBO title.

And by extension it shouldn't be an enormous surprise that it took a visual hit to the chin (which we saw in the showcase), even ignoring possible development hell problems. Only mitigating factors could be the use ML/DLSS and not rendering at 4k to hit said 120fps on XSX.