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[llien]

What if you hired a diverse group of people that were ALL the best people for the job?

It will still be perceived as diversity hires and for good reason: you are highly unlikely to get that diverse group (unless you mean Asians) without taking immutable characteristics over merit, since the hiring pool is much smaller.

Note how nobody thought of this lady as being "diversity hire":

since she clearly didn't need excuses or special treatment to get where she got.
Neither did this lady:

fast forward to today, and it gets from "hm..." with the likes of Ursula von den Leyen and "AKK", to outright pathetic riding of the "I'm a victim" waves (I still cannot wrap my head over her being 'person of color'"):

 

[notseqi]

Note how nobody thought of this lady as being "diversity hire":

Imagine hearing being called 'the quota hire' mumbled under someones breath at the coffee machine.
We have that word already for the single black guy in a movie that doesn't add much, the 'quota-black'.

 

[hyperbertha]

The only way to have talent plus diversity is to hire based on talent alone. All the talented diverse people would be hired that way.

 

[llien]

Who fooled you guys into thinking you can't have both Talent and Diversity?

There are 7 billion people in the world. You can have both talent and diversity.

You are either hiring based on skills, or you are not.
You can't have it both ways.
Answer to "but can't you get diversity" as part of it, heavily depends on how do you define "getting diversity".

And when you hire just based on skills, here is what you get:

To Make Orchestras More Diverse, End Blind Auditions (Published 2020)

If ensembles are to reflect the communities they serve, the audition process should take into account race, gender and other factors.

www.nytimes.com

OK? So the theory goes, that certain groups of people are underrepresented, because of the hiring bias.
The obvious answer to that is anonymizing. Except now we have learned, that it does not improve stats, on the opposite:

Blind recruitment trial to boost gender equality failing: study

Originally seen as an alternative to gender quotas, blind recruitment was touted as having a major positive impact on diversity — but a major study finds the trial may actually be having a negative impact on gender equality in the workplace.

www.abc.net.au

So what should we do now? For some reason, concluding that "hiring bias does not explain the effect", it is not.

 

[GiJoint]

Hire on merit, best person for the job, male, female, gay, black white etc

Sick of this snowflake society.

 

[Woo-Fu]

Equality of opportunity is the goal. Trying to enforce equality of outcome is counterproductive to that goal, particularly when you do it at the end of the process instead of the beginning.

If you want more representation for minorities in any given profession then you need to encourage more of those minorities to get the education and training to do those jobs. Do that and the market will do the rest.

Lastly, stop blaming this on SJWs within companies. That's not what this is. What it is are the lawyers taking the best path to avoid lawsuits. It's impossible to prove that you're not committing sexual discrimination when you don't hire a particular woman and it is impossible to prove you're not committing racial discrimination when you don't hire a particular minority. I'm talking hiring practices that involve an interview as part of the process. If you have a diverse workforce though that's the easiest thing to present whenever you get accused of discrimination. It's practically the only thing. Your company can thrive without having the most talented candidate in every position. Can it thrive under endless litigation for discrimination?

 

[mckmas8808]

One day - who knows, the same day you come to terms with the peculiar biography of the historical figure you've chosen as your avatar - one day you will understand that you only have to appeal to diversity if you really believe that, left to its devices, Meritocracy will ostracize certain groups.

That day, the irony of what that belief really entails will hit you like a double-decker bus.

I'm sorry, but I read your post 3 times and still missed what you were trying to say.

Maybe I was not clear. You do not hire for diversity, never.
You hire based on skills for the job, and IF they happen to be diverse, then you also hired diversity.

However, since diverse people are the minority, I would find it extremely unlikely that they are all the best people for the job, because we know that diversity = minority.
If we don't agree that diversity means minority, then this defeats the whole purpose of diversity hiring.
So if you need to hire from a group of 100 people, with 10 diverse people, I would find it extremely unlikely that the other 90 are worse. Is it possible? Yes, but with a very low probability.

This is plain privilege speaking right here. And some of yall speak as if you saw a picture of 100 devs (white guys) working on Halo Infinite, it'll mean all 100 of those people were the best choices. It's sad how half the people here don't even realize that not having a diverse team, doesn't mean the best people were hired either.

Equality of opportunity is the goal. Trying to enforce equality of outcome is counterproductive to that goal, particularly when you do it at the end of the process instead of the beginning.

If you want more representation for minorities in any given profession then you need to encourage more of those minorities to get the education and training to do those jobs. Do that and the market will do the rest.

This is a HUGE LIE! The "market" isn't dictated by robots or some force that doesn't have emotions. the "market" is dictated by humans. And all humans have emotions. And those emotions led us to doing things that are unfair and/or bias at times.

 

[mckmas8808]

Double post...

 

[Rikoi]

I'm sorry, but I read your post 3 times and still missed what you were trying to say.



This is plain privilege speaking right here. And some of yall speak as if you saw a picture of 100 devs (white guys) working on Halo Infinite, it'll mean all 100 of those people were the best choices. It's sad how half the people here don't even realize that not having a diverse team, doesn't mean the best people were hired either.

What privilege? I am not privileged at all, I simply state my rational thought.
If you are for diversity there is no guarantee that you hired the best.
You gotta hire for the best if you want the best.

You know what is diversity hiring? I see it in my country.
1000 people apply for a job, the first 100 get the job, BUT 20 of these have to be females.
Now, assume for a second that all the top 500 are males, you know what will happen? The best 80 will be hired, the other 20 from the top 100 will be discarded and they will hire the 501-520 position, because they are females, this is utterly idiotic.

 

[Woo-Fu]

This is a HUGE LIE! The "market" isn't dictated by robots or some force that doesn't have emotions. the "market" is dictated by humans. And all humans have emotions. And those emotions led us to doing things that are unfair and/or bias at times.

It's illegal. IT IS ILLEGAL. If you think the laws don't work then fix the laws.

The market works great. Why do you think 75% of the players in the NBA are black? Do you think the NBA should be using racial quotas to be fair to everybody? Are all the NBA owners racist against latinos? There should be more latino players than black players if we're trying to be "fair".

Equal opportunity is fair. Enforcing equality of outcome is not. If you can't see that then there's really no point discussing it.

 

[OrtizTwelve]

Talent trumps diversity no matter what industry. That is the way it should be.

If you can have both, that is great. But the reality is like most things in life — you simply cannot have it all.

 

[mckmas8808]

What privilege? I am not privileged at all, I simply state my rational thought.
If you are for diversity there is no guarantee that you hired the best.
You gotta hire for the best if you want the best.

You know what is diversity hiring? I see it in my country.
1000 people apply for a job, the first 100 get the job, BUT 20 of these have to be females.
Now, assume for a second that all the top 500 are males, you know what will happen? The best 80 will be hired, the other 20 from the top 100 will be discarded and they will hire the 501-520 position, because they are females, this is utterly idiotic.

- If you aren't for diversity, there's no way to know if you hired the best people.
- Your example is stupid. I know it was just an example, but come on Rikoi. Lets be real, if we are going to have a conversation about this.

It's illegal. IT IS ILLEGAL. If you think the laws don't work then fix the laws.

The market works great. Why do you think 75% of the players in the NBA are black? Do you think the NBA should be using racial quotas to be fair to everybody? Are all the NBA owners racist against latinos? There should be more latino players than black players if we're trying to be "fair".

Equal opportunity is fair. Enforcing equality of outcome is not. If you can't see that then there's really no point discussing it.

People have been trying to fix the laws, but the majority in this country don't agree to fix the laws. The market does NOT work great. What you are talking about with sports is obvious. Sports are closer to meritocracy than any other industry because they are upfront with what the "qualifications" are. In other industries, it's more about WHO you know, not WHAT you know.

I agree with equal opportunity over equal outcomes. But the opportunity at times aren't equal. This thread proves why that's the case.

 

[Rikoi]

- If you aren't for diversity, there's no way to know if you hired the best people.
- Your example is stupid. I know it was just an example, but come on Rikoi. Lets be real, if we are going to have a conversation about this.


People have been trying to fix the laws, but the majority in this country don't agree to fix the laws. The market does NOT work great. What you are talking about with sports is obvious. Sports are closer to meritocracy than any other industry because they are upfront with what the "qualifications" are. In other industries, it's more about WHO you know, not WHAT you know.

I agree with equal opportunity over equal outcomes. But the opportunity at times aren't equal. This thread proves why that's the case.

The opportunity is the same for everyone if you accept every application. You are implying that diverse people are forbidden from presenting their application, which is false.
You don't need to hire for diversity if EVERYONE is welcome to present their application, then you will hire the best among those who presented it.
My example is valid but of course you would dismiss it. Even if it was just 1 person hired outside of the top 100, you still robbed a job from someone that deserved it. What if that person was you?

 

[entremet]

The gaming delays are not about talent at all. It's a resourcing issue. Anyone with software development and PM chops would tell you that.

Come on, dudes lol.

Games have just become massive project with tons of dependencies. They're among the most complex software project around, involving art, design, music, sound, engine design, story, and so on.

We're hitting a fidelity peak and current game design philosophies in the AAA is not sustainable.

There's a reason TLOU2 took ages and had tons of outsourcing on top of that.

 

[Woo-Fu]

People have been trying to fix the laws, but the majority in this country don't agree to fix the laws. The market does NOT work great. What you are talking about with sports is obvious. Sports are closer to meritocracy than any other industry because they are upfront with what the "qualifications" are. In other industries, it's more about WHO you know, not WHAT you know.

I agree with equal opportunity over equal outcomes. But the opportunity at times aren't equal. This thread proves why that's the case.

You don't fix the opportunities not being equal by making them less equal.

If you think the market doesn't work how did you buy the device you're posting on? How did it get manufactured? Who did the research for the technology it uses? Always amazes me when people who say the market doesn't work do so in ways that would be impossible without that market.

 

[mckmas8808]

The opportunity is the same for everyone if you accept every application. You are implying that diverse people are forbidden from presenting their application, which is false.
You don't need to hire for diversity if EVERYONE is welcome to present their application, then you will hire the best among those who presented it.
My example is valid but of course you would dismiss it. Even if it was just 1 person hired outside of the top 100, you still robbed a job from someone that deserved it. What if that person was you?

Who cares if the application is accepted, if the reviewer of the application denies someone the opportunity for an interview because the applicant's name is Malik Johnson?!

You don't fix the opportunities not being equal by making them less equal.

If you think the market doesn't work how did you buy the device you're posting on? How did it get manufactured? Who did the research for the technology it uses? Always amazes me when people who say the market doesn't work do so in ways that would be impossible without that market.

Why am I having this discussion with some of you guys. Ugh....I'm out. ✌

 

[captain_cabbage]

Guess it's already been thoroughly discussed but here are my five cents.
Hiring process is a mess and it's near impossible to find objectively best candidates in terms of skill and knowledge. IT industry is oversaturated with talented engineers, which is why Google and other big tech companies can cherry pick candidates from a large pull of equally talented applicants to fulfil their quotas and get away with it.
Money always has the final say in decision making, so if a new hire doesn't mean potential profit or a strategic advantage for the company then it won't happen. If a company still hires a clearly under qualified candidate then possibly it goes along with the company values and is beneficial in the long run.

 

[B-universe]

I'm sorry, but I read your post 3 times and still missed what you were trying to say.

I'm not surprised in the least.
The aforementioned day of Epiphany hasn't arrived yet.

This is plain privilege speaking right here.

Get something through your head.

As a matter of principle, any business owner has the right to hire whomever they want. No group, majority, minority, no demographic, no sexual orientation is owed anything. No business owed anyone a job. White straight males aren't owed anything, blacks aren't owed anything, women aren't owed anything, Asians, Hispanics and Trans people are owed precisely jack shit.

Therefore, it's not a "privilege" - the new buzzword with which hollow buffoonery drapes itself - it is in fact an inalienable right of the business owner to pick and choose his staff, not yours, for his company, not yours, whose salaries he, not you, will be paying. If he picks an all-black team, so be it, If he chooses an all-female team, it's his prerogative. if he employs just trans people, good for him. So the people you see in the usual photos have the right to be there, because both parties agreed to it of their own accord.

Got that?
Good.

The people bellowing about diversity seem to be betraying an ingrained fear: if left to its own devices, pure Meritocracy will not reward all demographics the same way.

Who, if anyone, is the racist here, then? The person who trusts that if merit alone is the deciding factor then significant differences in distribution between demographics will probably fade away over time, or the individual with so little faith in the ability of minorities to succeed fair and square that they would anxiously give them an artificial leg up at the direct expense of others?

And some of yall speak as if you saw a picture of 100 devs (white guys) working on Halo Infinite, it'll mean all 100 of those people were the best choices.

That's entirely possible. I'm not vouching for any particular choice in the past or in the future. This is a matter of principle. The key difference, though, is that some people just aren't afraid of where absolute Meritocracy might lead, including having entire teams without a single white or straight male. I'm not afraid of any of that, not in the least. But some people do seem to be afraid. What exactly about blind, absolute unguided meritocracy seems to bring out their inner coward?

It's sad how half the people here don't even realize that not having a diverse team, doesn't mean the best people were hired either.

I do. I completely agree that not having a diverse team is not a guarantee that the best have been chosen. The reverse, of course, is also true.

Diversity hires are unjust and the moral imperative is to fight back against injustice.

This is a HUGE LIE! The "market" isn't dictated by robots or some force that doesn't have emotions. the "market" is dictated by humans.

Yes and over time guess what happens to businesses led by humans who make irrational choice after irrational choice? The market tends to take care of those.

Capitalism, The Great Exfoliator.

And all humans have emotions. And those emotions led us to doing things that are unfair and/or bias at times.

Indeed. Diversity hires being a notable example of irrational unfairness.

- If you aren't for diversity, there's no way to know if you hired the best people.

Bogus unsubstantiated assertion.

People have been trying to fix the laws, but the majority in this country don't agree to fix the laws. The market does NOT work great.

You don't have the moral right to violate other people's rights. Their rights include the right to hire whoever they want to hire, provided both parties voluntarily agree to the exchange.

Somehow you feel you have Paradise on Earth all figured out and that gives you licence to go around dictating how other people absolutely must conduct their lives when they're not trespassing on anybody else's freedoms.

To you, it's now a matter of passing legislation and enforcing it, forcing people under the latent threat of state violence, to conform. The role of the state is to protect individual rights. No individual rights are being violated when someone is hired because he and the company wanted it so.

But, no, the entire world should guide itself by the questionable moral code and the aprioristic abstract notions of what's fair of the local Malcom X. People have the full right to live their lives as they see fit, provided they don't encroach upon the rights and freedoms of others.

Being hired by company X is not a right.

I agree with equal opportunity over equal outcomes. But the opportunity at times aren't equal. This thread proves why that's the case.

You don't have the right to violate other people's sphere of sovereignty just because you woke up yesterday under the misguided impression you've got it all figured out and now the entire world should align itself with your notions of fairness.

You live your life and conduct business the way you see fit.
Other people will do just the same, thank you.

 

[Hudo]

It will still be perceived as diversity hires and for good reason: you are highly unlikely to get that diverse group (unless you mean Asians) without taking immutable characteristics over merit, since the hiring pool is much smaller.

Note how nobody thought of this lady as being "diversity hire":

since she clearly didn't need excuses or special treatment to get where she got.
Neither did this lady:

fast forward to today, and it gets from "hm..." with the likes of Ursula von den Leyen and "AKK", to outright pathetic riding of the "I'm a victim" waves (I still cannot wrap my head over her being 'person of color'"):

Well, in the case of Merkel it can be argued that her being from the former GDR and her being a woman has played a role in Helmut Kohl's decision to appoint her as minister for women and youth, as a tactic to appeal to East German voters (some of Kohl's former advisors have claimed this). But I think from there it was her scheming skill to get herself appointed to general secretary of the CDU.

 

[Ballthyrm]

levyjl1988 , i think you are misguided, Neither talent nor diversity matter in the grand scheme of things.

From what i can see what you really need is a group of people that worked together long enough that they implicitly trust one another.
This very rarely happens in the industry and when it does, it doesn't last that long. (people split up and go do other things)

Give me a group of nobodies that know how to learn and enough time and you'll make a great game.
What do most great games have in common ? they have giant-ass long development time with small-ish team of veteran devs.

Grit, Trust and Teamwork is where it is at.
WE need to moneyball video game development.

 

[Kamina]

We dont need diversity at all because nobody interested in games has asked for it.
It’s just a demand from people who dont actually play.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

It's fine if you don't care about diversity.
Plenty of people do, and it doesn't take much effort to get a talented AND diverse team.

See, this is why advocacy for pro-diversity quotas get a bad rap since arguments for them frequently involve strawmanning opponents.

Prioritizing talent over 'diversity' is not the same as not caring about 'diversity'. If anything, anti-diversity quota advocates would welcome diversity as long as (1) the diversity is that of thought as opposed to merely appearance and (2) it is achieved without quotas, i.e. the diversity happens organically.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

See, this is why advocacy for pro-diversity quotas get a bad rap since arguments for them frequently involve strawmanning opponents.

Prioritizing talent over 'diversity' is not the same as not caring about 'diversity'. If anything, anti-diversity quota advocates would welcome diversity as long as (1) the diversity is that of thought as opposed to merely appearance and (2) it is achieved without quotas, i.e. the diversity happens organically.

I like all the things you said.

 

[SurprisedPikachu]

So much diversity.

Asian
White
White
White
White
Asian
White
White
White
Asian
White
White
White
White
White
Asian
White
Asian

Straight for the skin color eh? Racist. With that being said.. this whole diversity shit is pretty stupid. Hire someone based on their talent, not their skin color. I don't care if you're man or woman, what your race is, what you do in your bedroom, etc. I just don't give a fuck. If you can do the job and beat out the rest of the talent pool, then you get the job based on that.

 

[levyjl1988]

Here is a fine example of talent in the gaming industry with 2 years of game development time:



Here is an example of diversity in the gaming industry with 5 years of game development time:

 

[Manus]

I dunno but it seems like the Western devs are pushing a lot of these diversity things rather than the Japanese devs and in the end, the “diversity driven” games can end up subpar. Somehow I like my Japanese games a lot more because they’re fun

That and the number one focus of most Japanese games is gameplay, because you know it's a game.

 

[Shmunter]

Just give bigger budgets to Japanese developers and let them go nuts.

Cheap Chinese labour may result in AAAA games for the budget of a western indie.

Not endorsing, just stating realistic premise

 

[DarkMage619]

Here is a fine example of talent in the gaming industry with 2 years of game development time:



Here is an example of diversity in the gaming industry with 5 years of game development time:

Can you prove it was 'diversity' that cause Halo's issues? You should you aren't misplacing blame? Are the highest ranking executives white men? Should we blame white men for the games state?

 

[idrago01]

Can you prove it was 'diversity' that cause Halo's issues? You should you aren't misplacing blame? Are the highest ranking executives white men? Should we blame white men for the games state?

white liberal men who embrace diversity and hired untalented people to meet a quota should be blamed i agree

 

[reptilex]

The only way to have talent plus diversity is to hire based on talent alone. All the talented diverse people would be hired that way.

Lol, this is BS like this why (save for SJW lunatics) anti-racists and lgbts are right to do activism without and against people like you if necessary.

 

[llien]

Who cares if the application is accepted, if the reviewer of the application denies someone the opportunity for an interview because the applicant's name is Malik Johnson?!

But what if hiding applicant's name does not improve stats? (Australia, linked on this very page)
There are no names attached to orchestra blind auditions either. Guess what SJW folks are asking to do? (linked on the same page)

Isn't it time to re-evaluate dubious study with mild results over glaring facts at hand: gaps cannot be explained by hiring bias.

And, FYI, there is a handful of "interview anonymiznig" platforms:

Blind Recruitment Software - Reduce Bias in Your Hiring Process

Pinpoint's Blind Recruitment Software helps reduce bias during the recruitment process. Find out more about our blind hiring software.

www.pinpointhq.com

But they never took off, are not pushed by the folks who claim to believe it is hiring bias, why?

 

[mckmas8808]

But what if hiding applicant's name does not improve stats? (Australia, linked on this very page)
There are no names attached to orchestra blind auditions either. Guess what SJW folks are asking to do? (linked on the same page)

Isn't it time to re-evaluate dubious study with mild results over glaring facts at hand: gaps cannot be explained by hiring bias.

And, FYI, there is a handful of "interview anonymiznig" platforms:

Blind Recruitment Software - Reduce Bias in Your Hiring Process

Pinpoint's Blind Recruitment Software helps reduce bias during the recruitment process. Find out more about our blind hiring software.

www.pinpointhq.com

But they never took off, are not pushed by the folks who claim to believe it is hiring bias, why?

Of course, the studies are dubious to you. They benefit people like you and your family. Congrats to you, while people like me and my family have to suffer being treated this way. But party on chief. Enjoy your 50 Meter head start.

 

[Woopah]

Here is a fine example of talent in the gaming industry with 2 years of game development time:



Here is an example of diversity in the gaming industry with 5 years of game development time:

Would you consider the Animal Crossing New Horizons team as Talent or Diversity?

 

[llien]

Of course, the studies are dubious to you. They benefit people like you and your family. Congrats to you, while people like me and my family have to suffer being treated this way. But party on chief. Enjoy your 50 Meter head start.

Where I live, nobody can correctly read, let alone, write my surname and even name without errors.
I speak with funny accent.
When we needed a spot in kinder garden, we were told there were no places, but we are added to the queue.
Later on, our neighbors, who, to make it even more insulting, had less priority (stay at home mom vs working mom) got there after us, but somehow got the spot.

Of all the possible "know your privilege" ad hominem targets in this thread, you chose one of the least prominent ones.

 

[lock2k]

Diversity is a fallacy. All brains are different. People of the same color are not equal. Not even twins are equal. A twin can be into ballet and the other can be into death metal. A group of humans that look similar will not be similar in thought just because of it. These NPC idiots are so blind and stupid they think that everyone follow guidelines on how to be imbeciles and act like hives. Guess what? It's not like that. This tribal mentality is killing individuality.

I

 

[levyjl1988]

Would you consider the Animal Crossing New Horizons team as Talent or Diversity?

Luck.

It was lucky that Animal Crossing New Horizons launched the way it did, in the midst of the pandemic.
Looking at Animal Crossing New Leaf on the 3DS compared to New Horizons sales.
Nintendo did something extremely right.
I can guess some of those, 1, character customization options from the beginning instead of answering questions to get the look you want,
2. it's on a platform that is doing exceedingly well received, and 3 the cute factor and simple shapes play a vital role which captures a broad audience, and 4 word of mouth, celebrity endorsements, etc.

 

[lock2k]

Where I live, nobody can correctly read, let alone, write my surname and even name without errors.
I speak with funny accent.
When we needed a spot in kinder garden, we were told there were no places, but we are added to the queue.
Later on, our neighbors, who, to make it even more insulting, had less priority (stay at home mom vs working mom) got there after us, but somehow got the spot.

Of all the possible "know your privilege" ad hominem targets in this thread, you chose one of the least prominent ones.

This whole privilege thing is such bullshit. I grew up on the hood and my father succeeded and our life got better but he had no rich parents. He only had his force of will. He is gay, by the way, and he fucking hates the alphabet people groups and using this identity trait to get places. All he used in his while life was talent.

A couple of born rich ultra leftist girls who work with me love to talk shit to me and other two male co workers saying we are privileged to be white males. My two male colleagues were also struggling guys from worling class families. The real priviliged ones like to jab at us for having an appearance that we inherited by DNA. Calling this world a clown world is a serious insult to clowns.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Imagine hearing being called 'the quota hire' mumbled under someones breath at the coffee machine.
We have that word already for the single black guy in a movie that doesn't add much, the 'quota-black'.

The problem is that many places have "representation" quotas these days, while it does not mean everyone from a "diverse" background was hired for this... it casts a probable doubt on everybody that fits the bill.

The worst part is not so much about hiring for diversity, once these diversity hires are in they can't be fired (depending on the organisation), and are also supposed to get promoted in line with the quotas.

Just to be clear, diversity is something that should have nothing in its way (racism, as in racial discrimination not the new "definition", and sexism should have no place in the work place)... but it should not be a metric that has targets its measured against, people get incentive for achieving, etc.

I work in IT--in a big city--we have had diversity before the mass hysteria, those who bothered with educating themselves, were competent and willing to go through the motion got promoted, without any more or less questioning of their competences than anyone who gets promoted in any organization (promotions make people jealous, so there is bound to be some level of gossip around these things). Now by giving promotions with quotas you open the door to valid concerns about the reasoning behind the promotion of any "diversity" person that gets the promotion.

The fun thing is when it comes to gay/lesbians, how is your boss supposed to know you are? can I just claim to be in order to represent? Because as far as I know it's not my boss's business to check who I sleep with, or even who I want to sleep with--unless that causes problems at work, which is a whole other problem.

TLDR: Diversity is nice, there should be no obstacle to it--but it should not be a goal in and of itself.

 

[DarkMage619]

white liberal men who embrace diversity and hired untalented people to meet a quota should be blamed i agree

Really? How do you know if they are liberal? Liberals can't make good games now? Politics determines whether games are good? So Sony has all white conservative men running it so thats why they are successful? What is going on?

 

[The Mad Draklor]

Really? How do you know if they are liberal? Liberals can't make good games now? Politics determines whether games are good? So Sony has all white conservative men running it so thats why they are successful? What is going on?

What are you asking questions with false presuppositions? Why aren't you being honest in your questions?

 

[B-universe]

Of course, the studies are dubious to you. They benefit people like you and your family. Congrats to you, while people like me and my family have to suffer being treated this way. But party on chief. Enjoy your 50 Meter head start.

Oh, poor you. You're the penial victim. Would you like a medal with that? A pat on the back? A shoulder to cry on?

It can't possibly be that one disagrees with the methodology or the kind of conclusions of certain studies, for objective reasons. No. It just has to be some self-serving excuse to perpetuate "racial injustice" that continues to deal "people like you" a bad hand.

mckmas8808 says so, therefore it must be true. Plus, he has the avatar to prove it. Please, believe his avatar.

People like me and people like you are not owed anything. I am not owed jack shit, you are not owed jack shit, no one is owed jack shit. If a studio wants to hire me and if I want to be hired by them, we got ourselves a deal.

As long as both parties agree to it, studios can hire whoever they want, all whites, all blacks, all trans, all gays, all atheists, all Shintoists, all under 20, all above 64, all women, etc., or any combination of the above.

It's their studio, not your studio. Therefore, they make the decisions, not you, just like in your life you make the decisions, not them. If you get to decide how they conduct business, why can't I possibly run your life? Seem fair.

But, hey, your post history conclusively proves you're invested in this promising career as a professional victim. Gosh, what sort of dreary consequences would ensue if you ever came to your senses and realized the truth?

The internet persona of the self-appointed victim would volatize and an avatar would be changed.

 

[Woopah]

Luck.

It was lucky that Animal Crossing New Horizons launched the way it did, in the midst of the pandemic.
Looking at Animal Crossing New Leaf on the 3DS compared to New Horizons sales.
Nintendo did something extremely right.
I can guess some of those, 1, character customization options from the beginning instead of answering questions to get the look you want,
2. it's on a platform that is doing exceedingly well received, and 3 the cute factor and simple shapes play a vital role which captures a broad audience, and 4 word of mouth, celebrity endorsements, etc.

Right, the development team made the right decisions with the game so it has high quality and good word of mouth. And yet the development team believe diversity is important and took steps to ensure the team was diverse. So clearly you can have diverse and talented teams and you don't have to choose between the two.

My main point is that if a game is having troubled development and has a diverse team, it doesn't mean the troubled development is because of the diverse team. Games can have a diverse team and be good. Correlation does not mean causation.

 

[danielJackson]

People whom demand "diversity" are usually the most racist and sexist people on earth.

like lets take 10 people from 10 different european countries, all white men.

= 10 hugely different cultures and possibly 10 different languages

not diverse.

Force random black people everywhere = Wow! such diverse!

and then they forget all different Asian cultures, different white, latino etc cultures. Only way to be diverse is to add black people + some women with pink hair and bulls nose rings.

People should be hired by talent / skills / compatibility and if zero black people or women have those skills, then they are not worth the job.

It's like in my country is/were some political "panel of equality" and then most if all were women

Living in almost fully white country is just annoying when even every second tv commercial must have black people? like fuck off, if 1% is black or whatever, it is just artificial "look we are doing the diversity work!"

As stupid as whites would demand that some African country must hire more whites and have more whites on their commercials.

It should be normal that there can be fully white, black or yellow groups and talent should be the main feature. not color of skin which makes it just racism against those that werent chosen because they have wrong color.

Not all whites get the job either, because they arent talented enough, so why blacks/others would have to be treated any other?

(if they are really talented and talk the native language, then it should not matter of course)

 

[DarkMage619]

What are you asking questions with false presuppositions? Why aren't you being honest in your questions?

I never brought politics into this thread. So why question me? I am trying to understand so I asked a question. Do you have an answer? Liberals make bad games was what was posited. You buy that?

 

[The Mad Draklor]

I never brought politics into this thread. So why question me? I am trying to understand so I asked a question. Do you have an answer? Liberals make bad games was what was posited. You buy that?

Why aren't you being honest? Why are you still going on with false presuppositions and engaging in bad faith?

 

[Vanitymachine]

Lets be real honest. Diversity, when used today, just means less white men, or no white men in many instances.
Having less or no white men is not a goal that inherently improves anything, in most instances it's more likely to be detrimental because you are excluding potential talent.
The long term effects of a society that emphasizes this current type of "diversity" over pure meritocracy will probably be devastating.

 

[Mozzarella]

Trigger warning!!

The Japanese gaming has almost no diversity, their games most of the time have no diversity, yet the Twitter/ResetEra mob praises them, overlooks that and no problemo.
On the other hand we have a game like Kingdom Come, which its whole purpose was to accurately depict medieval Bohemia setting, and the game was attacked fiercely for lack of diversity.
This kind of double standards is disgusting, i have no problem if you are a diversity advocate, good for you, but for fucks sake do it for everybody not only for certain groups.

Now am i gonna get banned for this comment?

Also yes i agree with you talent should be the first priority, and usually diversity is there too, because there is talent from different places, its just that sometimes the board doesnt like the diversity results and pushes for results that are acceptable by their own criteria which may push some talent away, and that sucks.

 

[Plague Doctor]

If you are excluding any candidate based on anything besides work experience and skills*, it's fucked up.

That's it.

Doing this with "good" intentions or doing this with bigotry, it doesn't matter.

It's the textbook definition of exclusionary and fucked up.

This is literally what earlier civil rights/integration laws were meant to prevent. Back when liberals and progressives were actually sane and principled and wanted anyone to have the opportunity to work.

Everyone is allowed to apply, everyone has a chance to get hired based on skills and work history, no group is denied or approved on outside factors.

It's amazing how many "progressive" companies are almost undoing civil rights activists fought so hard for.

Edit: *Criminal history can also be a factor depending on the offense and time.

 

[DarkMage619]

Why aren't you being honest? Why are you still going on with false presuppositions and engaging in bad faith?

Why aren't you answering the question and deflecting? You are spending more time talking about me over the topic.

I don't think being liberal or conservative has ANYTHING to do with gaming. Halo had clear issues with program management. The political perspective of anyone on the team is irrelevant. Diversity has nothing to do with it either. It's not black and white diversity OR talent.

 

[lock2k]

People whom demand "diversity" are usually the most racist and sexist people on earth.

like lets take 10 people from 10 different european countries, all white men.

= 10 hugely different cultures and possibly 10 different languages

not diverse.

Praise the sun.

Hire a brit, a scandi and a german guy. They will be wildly diferent from each other. Add an italian, or a spanish, or a greek guy, or a balkan. That's diverse as fuck. For the size of Europe I think it is the most diverse continent on earth. Not a lot of land and wildly different cultures that you can visit by driving a car.