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[Night.Ninja]

 

[xStoyax]

After the PS5 reveal we had a lot of devs come out to say how easy it was to work on the Playstation 5.

But I haven't heard as many say the same thing about the Xbox. But we did hear months ago from places like Digital Foundry that a lot of devs didn't like the idea of a lower powered next-gen machine and that's around the time we had heard Microsoft was listening to devs and decided to scrap it.

So far, the only thing I've seen about the Xbox Series S is from a Technical Producer from Remedy who said the following.

Indeed, back when Xbox Series S was just a rumour, many dreaded the idea that a new, lower baseline exists in the next generation of consoles at all. Their thinking being that console games typically target the lowest common denominator, which inevitably means holding back the more powerful console, and lowering the bar for everyone.

https://www.vg247.com/2020/09/10/remedy-dev-xbox-series-s-thoughts-trouble/

I expect Xbox Studio devs will talk kindly about developing for Xbox Series S. But are there any other well known developers who are talking about it?

 

[Humdinger]

If it’s really that bad I hope devs just collectively say screw it and focus on the high end. Let people who opt for the XSS deal with performance issues on the low end. We already had a mid gen refresh like never before, there is no point in keeping a half measure around for another entire generation.

I don't think it'll be as bad as some people are making it out to be. Otoh, I don't buy what some people are saying, that developers will design all out for XSX, then magically scale it all down to run on XSX, and there will be no compromise. I'm not a developer or even a tech guy, but it's pretty clear to me from listening to the guys who are, and who know this stuff, that having to design around the S will compromise ambition/features for the X, to some degree. As for how much, I don't know. I don't think anyone really knows. It probably depends on the developer, the game, their resources, talent, time, etc.

Seems like he's contradicting himself. On the one hand, he says it won't hold back XSX development. On the other, he says it "encourages you to descope a bit," which I assume means shaving back ambitions and features.

 

[geordiemp]

I can't claim to know the answers, because I nor anyone that isn't directly involved knows the answer 100%. What we do know is the spec sheet and features, which were presented by each company and that is the best point from which we can get an idea of the devices capabilities.

We don't see any advantages right now, because nothing is out yet, but I am looking forward to AC:V to see if there are any advantages and how they are being utilized between those system.

That is Correct, we need to see the performance in games.

But number of CU and TF is one metric, how fast and efficiently they are fed is Equally vital. We know ps5 wlll have 4 shader arrays fed by 4 x L1 cache, and we know XSX will have 4 shader arrays fed by 4 x L1 cache.

I assume XSS will have 2 shader arrays fed by 2 x L1 cache and 10 CU per shader array ?

We have no idea how the CUs are to be fed and effective utilisation, one cache feeding 14 CU might be more efficient if its twice the size, over a cache feeding 10 CU. Nobody knows but engineers working on both kits.

We dont know as L1 cache is being kept a secret and was not revealed by MS when asked at hotchips, and Sony have not coughed up either, the introduction of L1 was one of the main steps up from GCN to RDNA.

 

[tryDEATH]

That is Correct, we need to see the performance in games.

But number of CU and TF is one metric, how fast and efficiently they are fed is Equally vital. We know ps5 wlll have 4 shader arrays fed by 4 L1 cache, and we know XSX will have 4 shader arrays fed by L1 cache.

We have no idea how the CUs are to be fed and effective utilisation, one cache feeding 14 CU might be more efficient if its twice the size, over a cache feeding 10 CU. Nobody knows but engineers working on both kits.

We dont know as L1 cache is being kept a secret and was not revealed by MS when asked at hotchips, and Sony have not coughed up either, the introduction of L1 was one of the main steps up from GCN to RDNA.

I am genuinely interested in seeing the actual performances between the two system, because we never before had this different of a approach to console architecture. So many differentiating factors on every single part, which is going to be interesting to see which approach is better and yields more performance.

 

[geordiemp]

I am genuinely interested in seeing the actual performances between the two system, because we never before had this different of a approach to console architecture. So many differentiating factors on every single part, which is going to be interesting to see which approach is better and yields more performance.

Yup it will be interesting, posters focus on 2 numbers usually, TF and memory bandwidth, but its all the Cache bandwidths that feed the work thats often ignored. Here is RDNA1, and note the cache bandwidths not the CU number ....

 

[LED Guy?]

So I have watched Microsoft's official "Inside Xbox Series S" video they've officially released yesterday, and the one thing they kept repeating is how Xbox Series S will be rendering games at 1440p resolution (regardless of FPS because that's the developers' choice), and I'll explain why it concerns me a bit.

Here's the official "Inside Xbox Series S" video:




Now we've got that out of the way, let's dive in!

The thing that concerns me is that running your games at 1440p resolution (regardless of FPS) on a 4 TFLOPs RDNA 2 GPU as the baseline (just like PS4's baseline is 1080p) isn't gonna be a huge graphical leap from what we have now running on PS4/XB1, because let's take a game like The Last of Us Part II on running on PlayStation 4 Pro at Native 1440p resolution (keep in mind, we're talking graphics here), and I know there are games like Death Stranding, RDR 2, Detroit Become Human, God of War, Horizon Zero Dawn all of them at a Checkerboard 4K which equates to around 1512p, so a bit higher than 1440p, but let's go with TLOU 2 because it's as taxing on the GPU as those games & eats a lot of GPU Memory bandwidth, hence why it's at 1440p.

OK for my hypothesis and analysis, 4 TFLOPs RDNA 2 = 6 TFLOPs GCN or slightly better, Xbox One X > PS4 Pro by 31% so then let's say Xbox Series S is more powerful than PS4 Pro's GPU by around 40%, so running a game at 1440p resolution like TLOU 2 on PS4 Pro will ONLY look better than TLOU 2 or those high-end games by 40%??

This is how I got it:

PS4 Pro = 4.2 TFLOPs GCN.
Xbox One X = 6 TFLOPs GCN (31% advantage over PS4 Pro).
Xbox Series S = 4 TFLOPs RDNA 2 (Around 40% advantage over PS4 Pro).
So a game at 1440p 30 FPS on Xbox Series S will look 40% better than TLOU 2 running on PS4 Pro at 1440p.

Because that seems so disappointing, I really wanted developers to take advantage and run their games at 1620p or 1440p on PS5 & Xbox Series X, not running their games at 1440p on Xbox Series S (remember, this is what Microsoft are touting this console to be as), so that means that PS5 & Xbox Series X are gonna be kinda resolution boxes more than developers fully building their games on it.

I may appear as saying that Series S is holding the PS5 and XSX back, and I'm not entirely saying that, but developers are kinda saying it as well, look at those developers from Remedy Games and from Activision working on Call of Duty games.

You can also see Austin Evans YouTube video on it too saying it too! (From 9:32 till 10:40)




What I want from developers is games that run at 1440p on Xbox Series X & PS5, NOT Xbox Series S, because that's gonna hold back graphics advancements a bit, I know I haven't discussed the GPU features like VRS, Mesh Shaders & HW Ray Tracing (which will be BIG for Next-gen), but still, Unreal 5 ran at 1440p 30 FPS on PS5, this is the next-gen visuals that we should expect, and I firmly believe that targeting 1440p on Series S as the baseline (because we know it's gonna sell a lot so this is what developers will target and base their games at) will hinder graphics a bit, I'm waiting for Sony's exclusives that will take advantage of PS5 in a bigger way due to its super fast SSD and them targeting visuals at lower resolutions, I meanl we have AI upscaling techniques now, lots of reconstruction techniques that will make you hard to decide if they are 4K or not, but think with me on this, if Unreal 5 demo ran at 1440p 30 FPS on PS5, how will that run on Xbox Series S? 900p? 720p? I don't think developers will be doing this, they wanna make sure that Series S runs at 1440p or around it at stable FPS with the same graphics like Microsoft specified in their video above.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

OK for my hypothesis and analysis, 4 TFLOPs RDNA 2 = 6 TFLOPs GCN or slightly better - wrong, even with rdna2 arch. improvements with 224gb/s bandwidth it will be little slower than 6tf xox gpu 326gb/s

 

[LED Guy?]

OK for my hypothesis and analysis, 4 TFLOPs RDNA 2 = 6 TFLOPs GCN or slightly better - wrong, even with rdna2 arch. improvements with 224gb/s bandwidth it will be little slower than 6tf xox gpu 326gb/s

Yeah this too, 224 GB/s for next-generation gaming is very low, even PS4 Pro is 218 GB/s.

 

[Nikana]

Yeah this too, 224 GB/s for next-generation gaming is very low, even PS4 Pro is 218 GB/s.

SSD and GDDR6 vs Mechanical Drive and GDDR5. Not comparable as the RAM will be utilized much more efficiently.

 

[FunkMiller]

I‘m sure the Series S will render games at 1440p.

Undertale.
Nidhogg.
Shovel Knight.

...those kinds of games.

It’s not going to manage it with triple AAA games, but Microsoft can sell you the idea that it plays at 1440p.... because they’re telling the truth. It will play games at that resolution.

Just not all of them, eh?

 

[LED Guy?]

SSD and GDDR6 vs Mechanical Drive and GDDR5. Not comparable as the RAM will be utilized much more efficiently.

I know but still it is slow.

 

[Nikana]

I know but still it is slow.

Compared to what? The PS5 and Seires X which are going to be pushing more detail, higher resolution assets and a 4K frame? Than yeah its slow.

But the machine has been built for a specific purpose and the amount of bandwidth makes sense for what its pushing.

 

[LED Guy?]

Compared to what? The PS5 and Seires X which are going to be pushing more detail, higher resolution assets and a 4K frame? Than yeah its slow.

But the machine has been built for a specific purpose and the amount of bandwidth makes sense for what its pushing.

What I'm trying to say is that it's still not a huge leap and it's gonna hold back a bit.

 

[RoboFu]

I‘m sure the Series S will render games at 1440p.

Undertale.
Nidhogg.
Shovel Knight.

...those kinds of games.

It’s not going to manage it with triple AAA games, but Microsoft can sell you the idea that it plays at 1440p.... because they’re telling the truth. It will play games at that resolution.

Just not all of them, eh?

XBOX x can do close to 4k now with big games now. it of course depends on the game but the series S will do more than 2d inide games at high resolutions for sure.

 

[Nikana]

What I'm trying to say is that it's still not a huge leap and it's gonna hold back a bit.

Huge leap vs what? If you are looking at just the numbers compared to the PS4 Pro and Series X then yeah sure, but those devices were built different. But you again are comparing an SSD vs a mechanical drive, GDDR5 vs GDDR6, RDNA vs GCN, Old Api's vs XVA and Direct Storage.

Looking at one metric and saying its slow is not an intelligent way to compare.

 

[InverseAgonist]

I'm going to be interested to see what happens when a studio decides to implement some advanced lighting models and shaders and really push the high-end model and PS5 at a resolution of 1440p or even 1080p. I mean, the tacit understanding of this resolution scaling argument is that games for Xbox and PS5 will be baselined at 4K, always, and then the model S can just scale down.

What happens when a developer -- who should have the freedom -- decides to release a 1080p game with amazing graphics. Something that is still a viable option. What would the resolution be on Model S assuming 1080p on Model X and PS5?

 

[Kazekage1981]

man what does it take to fully transition into 4k?

saying "4k is a waist of resources" is dogshit. thats why the pc master race laughs at console gamers. it has taken 14 years to transition from 720p 30fps (Xbox360) to 900p 30fps (xbox one) and finally 1080p at 30fps-120fps (xbone x and xbox series s) with some bells and whistles (ray tracing, etc).

xbox series x and ps5 can do 4k, but even then, they need to do reconstruction and other techniques to lower quality and upscale to 4k.

i think its going to take ps5pro and xbox series x pro to make it a true solid 4k 30fps-60pfs console without any upscaling and other bullshit.

ya i know: its all about the games!

 

[AgentP]

SSD and GDDR6 vs Mechanical Drive and GDDR5. Not comparable as the RAM will be utilized much more efficiently.

Wha...? You are going to save the 224GB/s bandwidth with a 5GB/s SSD? What does GDDR5 vs GDDR6 have to do with anything? The bandwidth is the bandwidth. This is fantasy.

 

[spons]

If developers survived the PS2 and PS3 then this is going to be a walk in the park. It's more about scaling down a bunch of graphics options as opposed to programming against the billion co-processors the PS2 had, or the heavily multi-threaded architecture of PS3.

 

[Nikana]

Wha...? You are going to save the 224GB/s bandwidth with a 5GB/s SSD? What does GDDR5 vs GDDR6 have to do with anything? The bandwidth is the bandwidth. This is fantasy.

Are we really going to ignore the beenefits like access time of GDDR6 vs GDDR5?

As well as the efficiency of filling RAM on a mechanical drive vs SSD?

By your Logic the doubling of 8GB from 16Gb in PS5 and Series X is not nearly enough of a jump considering what can be utilized by the machine.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Not gonna argue with you anymore. You can say whatever nonsense you want.

You are not ready arguing here beside being actively and passively aggressive.

Like its talking to a wall.

Oh the irony... .

If by saying Series S holding games back fits your fanboy agenda then go ahead.

What agenda ?

 

[ethomaz]

Related.

 

[cireza]

It’s not going to manage it with triple AAA games, but Microsoft can sell you the idea that it plays at 1440p.... because they’re telling the truth. It will play games at that resolution.

Just not all of them, eh?

Well done. You understand how marketing works for video-game consoles. Was already like this back in the SNES days.

 

[FunkMiller]

Well done. You understand how marketing works for video-game consoles. Was already like this back in the SNES days.

Yes. I do know a bit about marketing.

 

[Redlancet]

man what does it take to fully transition into 4k?

saying "4k is a waist of resources" is dogshit. thats why the pc master race laughs at console gamers. it has taken 14 years to transition from 720p 30fps (Xbox360) to 900p 30fps (xbox one) and finally 1080p at 30fps-120fps (xbone x and xbox series s) with some bells and whistles (ray tracing, etc).

xbox series x and ps5 can do 4k, but even then, they need to do reconstruction and other techniques to lower quality and upscale to 4k.

i think its going to take ps5pro and xbox series x pro to make it a true solid 4k 30fps-60pfs console without any upscaling and other bullshit.

ya i know: its all about the games!

red dead 2 its 4k 30 fps on the xbox x,stop the bs

 

[Heimdall_Xtreme]

A technical producer at Remedy is happy with the Series S looking at it through the lens of a consumer but with regards to development he seems less than happy.



https://www.linkedin.com/in/c4rm1n3/?originalSubdomain=fi

Microsoft's stance based on their recent Series S video is that it's easily scalable

"We wanted to make the development process as easy as possible for developers around the world"

(timestamp included)

What challenges are developers anticipating with working with the Series S in the short or long term? Is the bandwidth not enough, or is it the GPU?

Infinity Ward dev chimes in

Overheating??

 

[M1chl]

I‘m sure the Series S will render games at 1440p.

Undertale.
Nidhogg.
Shovel Knight.

...those kinds of games.

It’s not going to manage it with triple AAA games, but Microsoft can sell you the idea that it plays at 1440p.... because they’re telling the truth. It will play games at that resolution.

Just not all of them, eh?

Yeah, it seems like 1080p box for me, which I think it's fine for the target consumer base.

However...

Related.

This the guy behind Doom: Eternal....

 

[BlueXImpulse]

Related.

This is getting much worse. Are we going to continue to sweep these developer comments under the rug?

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Hold on. Is the S weaker than the Xbox One X? (not series x)



what

 

[DaGwaphics]

Yeah, it seems like 1080p box for me, which I think it's fine for the target consumer base.

However...


This the guy behind Doom: Eternal....

Just be sure keep in mind that it's also the house that put Doom: Eternal on the switch, with its 25.6GB/s of memory bandwidth (a larger gap from the One S even ignoring the Sram and just figuring based on the DDR3). Just saying.

Larger available memory deficit also.

 

[Clear]

Devs know that not everything scales linearly downwards, it just doesn't work like that.

Being able to show Gears running at double the framerate is comparatively simple, because in that instance all that's required is double the efficiency of the original One S both for cpu and gpu function. Which obviously the Series S is specced for.

However that doesn't mean it can do 60fps at 4k, or 240fps at 720p because its stretching GPU and CPU throughput respectively beyond their capability. Furthermore it means that a game running at 60fps/4k on One X is quite possibly not going to scale back down to 60/1080p neatly because although the throughput on the GPU drops, the CPU load will remain the same and suddenly it finds itself running on a slightly downclocked processor with half the memory bandwidth.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Hold on. Is the S weaker than the Xbox One X? (not series x)



what

It's targeting a different resolution. One X was built to try and run 4k. The XSS is better overall, even in raw GPU performance, but the bandwidth is not optimized for 4k. This is typical of PC cards as well, a new card can do much better than an old, high-end card in 1080p but falter at 4k (because the old card probably had better bandwidth than the new 1080p card).

 

[ethomaz]

Hold on. Is the S weaker than the Xbox One X? (not series x)



what

The CPU is way stronger.
But the GPU and memory are weaker.

It target 1080p too so that is why it is weaker in GPU/Memory.

 

[Bryank75]

What did I say!?

Devs don't like having to spend more time on a platform where they make less money and have to compete with GamePass.

While they just have to make one version for PS5 and sell a load, no undermining from the platform holder.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Devs don't like having to spend more time on a platform where they make less money and have to compete with GamePass.

You do realize that most of the GP catalog is provided by third parties, right? EA is already a part of GPU, expect most major publishers to follow with limited collections of their own. GP vs. the developers is a silly myth.

 

[Md Ray]

Related.

I gotta admit I wasn't that concerned about SS holding back SX but after Billy Khan's tweet, it's a bit worrying. His comments are not to be sniffed at. That's a lead engine programmer of DOOM/DOOM Eternal.

 

[Bryank75]

You do realize that most of the GP catalog is provided by third parties, right? EA is already a part of GPU, expect most major publishers to follow with limited collections of their own. GP vs. the developers is a silly myth.

So you're saying when some decent games like Wasteland or The Outer Worlds and a few others release and on the same day.... something like Control or Man Eater releases.... that loads of people that have Game Pass wont be like 'meh, I have a few good games, don't need to buy anything else'?

Day 1 sales are essential for developers to recoup their investment and make a profit. So, I think it's very dangerous.

 

[DaGwaphics]

So you're saying when some decent games like Wasteland or The Outer Worlds and a few others release and on the same day.... something like Control or Man Eater releases.... that loads of people that have Game Pass wont be like 'meh, I have a few good games, don't need to buy anything else'?

Day 1 sales are essential for developers to recoup their investment and make a profit. So, I think it's very dangerous.

Those people already exist. LOL

The I'll wait till it's $20 crowd is strong. Even worse, the I'll wait to get it used crowd, where the devs get nothing (they much prefer GP).

 

[DeepEnigma]

Related.

Get this "armchair dev" the F outta here!

 

[AgentP]

I gotta admit I wasn't that concerned about SS holding back SX but after Billy Khan's tweet, it's a bit worrying. His comments are not to be sniffed at. That's a lead engine programmer of DOOM/DOOM Eternal.

I think his MS check went to DF on "accident"!

 

[bohrdom]

No one's even talking about non-graphics GPU workloads. XSS will be a real bottleneck on that front.

I do think this console is marketed to your Madden/Fifa-bro. Xbox is trying to take a piece of PS base outside of USA.

 

[InverseAgonist]

It target 1080p too so that is why it is weaker in GPU/Memory.

I find it interesting how it's become a "4K box" verse a "1080p box". Microsoft's messaging has really been effective on this one.

What happens if a developer -- like anyone using Unreal 5 -- decides to output in 1440p or 1080p on the PS5 and X because they're pushing nanite or have a novel lighting solution they want to exploit that takes a lot of shader performance up? What resolution will it run at on the S then? What experience will that provide? What else will have to be cut in order to get something running on the S?

I think these are serious questions that could hinder developers ability to craft the types of games they desire.

 

[Jokerevo]

You do realize that most of the GP catalog is provided by third parties, right? EA is already a part of GPU, expect most major publishers to follow with limited collections of their own. GP vs. the developers is a silly myth.

You realise that devs want to sell individual units of their games first. Renting them is a last resort. AG mentioned that gamepass isn't exactly setting the rate of return on fire. Like MS paid upfront to get those games on there. The real problem with GP is AAA studios want hardware sales to drive unit sales. They want those fat install bases so they can sell their games to everyone.

When GTA 6 comes out I wonder how they will handle the Xss issue. Will they really scale their game back into last gen?

 

[ethomaz]

I find it interesting how it's become a "4K box" verse a "1080p box". Microsoft's messaging has really been effective on this one.

What happens if a developer -- like anyone using Unreal 5 -- decides to output in 1440p or 1080p on the PS5 and X because they're pushing nanite or have a novel lighting solution they want to exploit that takes a lot of shader performance up? What resolution will it run at on the S then? What experience will that provide? What else will have to be cut in order to get something running on the S?

I think these are serious questions that could hinder developers ability to craft the types of games they desire.

That is a good question.
For now we only know MS is targeting 1080p/1440p with S and 4k with X.
I believe there won't be similar "1080p + RT" option on S (it will be exclusive to X).

 

[gmoran]

Panajev is a game dev who's been posting here for 20 years. Back in the day he was an ace source of knowledge on the original xbox and the PS2. Calling him a fanboy LOL

Oops, I just realised I was thinking of Fafalada, not Panajev, damn that makes me look idiotic.

Apologies for the confusion

 

[quest]

I find it interesting how it's become a "4K box" verse a "1080p box". Microsoft's messaging has really been effective on this one.

What happens if a developer -- like anyone using Unreal 5 -- decides to output in 1440p or 1080p on the PS5 and X because they're pushing nanite or have a novel lighting solution they want to exploit that takes a lot of shader performance up? What resolution will it run at on the S then? What experience will that provide? What else will have to be cut in order to get something running on the S?

I think these are serious questions that could hinder developers ability to craft the types of games they desire.

If they are targeting sub 1440p on the series x they fucked up big time and that game will be a dumpster fire performance wise lol. I do love the concern. Should you concern troll Sony if a developer wants to use lots of avx256 and down clock the shit out of the GPU causing shit frame rates?

 

[GHG]

Related.

Literally what I was saying yesterday and I was accused on "concern trolling". Just decreasing the resolution doesn't magically fix the bandwidth issues.

 

[ethomaz]

Literally what I was saying yesterday and I was accused on "concern trolling". Just decreasing the resolution doesn't magically fix the bandwidth issues.

Xbox fans believes that every single major dev is doing concern trolling too lol
They live some alternate reality.

Spoiler

They believe the devs talking are all first-party Sony devs lol

 

[Agnostic2020]

Seems many devs are unhappy as time goes on