It appears that developers are just slapping in Ray tracing just to say that their game have it. It obvious we are going to take a hit on visuals/frame rate so ray tracing can be implemented (at least at the moment). I mean the puddles look nice and all but is it worth the price for console gamers. Guys paying 500+ for a gpu shouldn't have tp have any sacrifices. Is good for anything more that rain puddles, reflections, and lights? Are we going to have games limited visually/frame wise because the devs feel that they got to have ray tracing to check a box?
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Is Ray Tracing worth the performance hit for console gamers?
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LazyParrot
Member
It's not even worth it on PC IMHO.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Absolutely. Wouldn’t play Spider-Man without it.
(ie played in fidelity mode vs performance even pre RT/60fps patch)
(ie played in fidelity mode vs performance even pre RT/60fps patch)
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Bernd Lauert
Banned
On the current consoles definitely not. Maybe on the Pro versions.
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
Yes.
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Tickle My Tendies
Member
Ray Tracing is awesome, but for these consoles it is awfully expensive. CP77 running on my 3080 at 1440p/Ultra is fucking stunning.
Unless you have a 30xx card on PC and/or the game has DLSS 2.0 implemented then it's a hard sell IMO.
Both of these consoles are using relatively primitive RT hardware in comparison.
Even a 3060 Ti needs DLSS 2.0 to average 60+ FPS with DLSS 2.0 (at highest quality setting) with all RT effects turned on in Control at 1440p. I think with the same settings, that card will only average 45ish FPS in CP77. Ray Tracing is a massive performance hog at native resolutions.
When the next waves of consoles hit and we are up to DLSS 6.0 or whatever equivalent rises at the time, with much more advanced RT cores, it won't be an issue.
For now, I say if you're gonna do Ray Tracing on console, follow the Insomniac playbook. SMR and MM are the best examples of RT on console right now, followed by The Medium IMO. I like how The Medium doesn't just blast RT reflections on every surface in the game, so when it does happen you really notice it. It doesn't just make everything look shiny, like in WD:Legion.
Personally, I would prefer to see RT on console used more with lighting and shadows than just reflections. Shiny windows and puddles are cool and all but lighting/shading can really transform a game. Plus, look at Hitman 3. Great reflections with standard reflections, no RT required.
Unless you have a 30xx card on PC and/or the game has DLSS 2.0 implemented then it's a hard sell IMO.
Both of these consoles are using relatively primitive RT hardware in comparison.
Even a 3060 Ti needs DLSS 2.0 to average 60+ FPS with DLSS 2.0 (at highest quality setting) with all RT effects turned on in Control at 1440p. I think with the same settings, that card will only average 45ish FPS in CP77. Ray Tracing is a massive performance hog at native resolutions.
When the next waves of consoles hit and we are up to DLSS 6.0 or whatever equivalent rises at the time, with much more advanced RT cores, it won't be an issue.
For now, I say if you're gonna do Ray Tracing on console, follow the Insomniac playbook. SMR and MM are the best examples of RT on console right now, followed by The Medium IMO. I like how The Medium doesn't just blast RT reflections on every surface in the game, so when it does happen you really notice it. It doesn't just make everything look shiny, like in WD:Legion.
Personally, I would prefer to see RT on console used more with lighting and shadows than just reflections. Shiny windows and puddles are cool and all but lighting/shading can really transform a game. Plus, look at Hitman 3. Great reflections with standard reflections, no RT required.
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driqe
Member
Not yet it seems.
source lol
Yes.
Tickle My Tendies
Member
A 3080 or better can handle native 1440p and RT, so it depends on what resolution you're going for. If we are talking 4k, then yeah, even with a 3090 you're probably gonna need DLSS for 4k/RT maxed in most/all games.
Aenima
Member
Depends of the game and depends of how much diference there is in the image with and without raytracing.
In geral i rather have 60fps. But im playing now Control at 30fps with Raytracing and cant let go of the beauty reflections. In a game without so many repflective materials, i would have picked the 60fps.
I think raytracing is still too earlier for the consoles hardware. Consoles cant take advantage of the full raytracing capabilities, and is a very heavy resorce. Im glad the devs are giving us the option to choose to play with it on or off for better performance.
In geral i rather have 60fps. But im playing now Control at 30fps with Raytracing and cant let go of the beauty reflections. In a game without so many repflective materials, i would have picked the 60fps.
I think raytracing is still too earlier for the consoles hardware. Consoles cant take advantage of the full raytracing capabilities, and is a very heavy resorce. Im glad the devs are giving us the option to choose to play with it on or off for better performance.
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
That first picture is so omega bullshit it hurts
Yes.
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
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MeatSafeMurderer
Member
Absolutely not. About the only game where I would say it's worth it is Minecraft...but that's really only because its default lightmap system is incredibly basic, ugly and affects shaders too. RT GI side steps that entirely by just not using the lightmap for lighting. In modern engines using modern APIs and modern rasterized lighting techniques? No. Nice to have but not worth the hit.
Mike Zhang
Member
Only worth in photo mode
Lethal01
Member
And it could look way better with RT.
Tickle My Tendies
Member
Demon's Souls is the best looking console game I have played so far, for sure, but I am not sure I understand the logic here.
Many great looking games don't have RT. In fact, most games, just in general, don't have RT at all. That doesn't mean it doesn't transform the image when properly implemented.
Dthomp
Member
Nope, every game I've tried on the PS5 so far where I can change between them I just can't bring myself not to play 60FPS Performance. Shiny stuff is pretty and maybe graphics whores care about it that much, but I don't stop to admire every shiny building or car, I want my games to run like butter more then be slightly prettier.
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This does nothing for me. How does this affect my gameplay enjoyment?
Yes.
Majima Everywhere System
Member
No, screenshots “proving” otherwise are from games with ray tracing that just quit with other lighting options because it’s on the consumer now.
A wealth of lighting and reflections tricks exist that don’t kill performance, and are even more visually pleasing in my eyes (limitations make great art).
IF ray tracing someday saves devs effort and time, and games come out faster, I will cut them a break and let them use it. If performance is there, it doesn’t matter. I’m happy with all the speed tree trees, even though there is no artistry left in that.
A wealth of lighting and reflections tricks exist that don’t kill performance, and are even more visually pleasing in my eyes (limitations make great art).
IF ray tracing someday saves devs effort and time, and games come out faster, I will cut them a break and let them use it. If performance is there, it doesn’t matter. I’m happy with all the speed tree trees, even though there is no artistry left in that.
Evren01
Neo Member
RTX is considered to be only about reflections in general, but actually it is not. It's about how light reacts to environment in every aspect. It brings depth to a scene and I think it is worth using but that also depends on game.
Some games have a really high quality baked lighting environments. The Last of Us 2 for example, every interior and exterior spaces have their own high quality baked GIs, also there is a good combination between reflection probs & screen-space reflections. If a game's lighting system as detailed as games like TLOU 2, then we can ignore RTX maybe. But dynamic objects never feels natural even in games like TLOU 2, because you can never bake a dynamic object's lighting information onto the environments.
This image below is my personal 3D environment work, I utilised RayTracing features in terms of rendering the scene. Every lighting effects rendered with RT inculing AO channel. If you look at the texture details on the ground, I used tesellated ground with a custom height map that I created and the ground bumped up a bit, you can see thin shadowing effect right under the pebbles for example, or intersections between plants and ground. These kind of small details can never be rendered but RT feature because these will be maintained even if the plants or objects move to somewhere. Small details may not seem important to you, but overall combination of small details bring realism and more depth to a 3D scene. Just my opinions.
Some games have a really high quality baked lighting environments. The Last of Us 2 for example, every interior and exterior spaces have their own high quality baked GIs, also there is a good combination between reflection probs & screen-space reflections. If a game's lighting system as detailed as games like TLOU 2, then we can ignore RTX maybe. But dynamic objects never feels natural even in games like TLOU 2, because you can never bake a dynamic object's lighting information onto the environments.
This image below is my personal 3D environment work, I utilised RayTracing features in terms of rendering the scene. Every lighting effects rendered with RT inculing AO channel. If you look at the texture details on the ground, I used tesellated ground with a custom height map that I created and the ground bumped up a bit, you can see thin shadowing effect right under the pebbles for example, or intersections between plants and ground. These kind of small details can never be rendered but RT feature because these will be maintained even if the plants or objects move to somewhere. Small details may not seem important to you, but overall combination of small details bring realism and more depth to a 3D scene. Just my opinions.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
You can’t see how proper lighting in a game like Metro or any number of other games could improve the experience?
I’ve noticed enemies in reflections in RTX games I would have otherwise not seen. Made for an awesome gameplay experience. And that’s just one tiny example.
Also.
Only difference in these screens is RT on VS Off.
Look at how much more grounded the objects and bike are in the scene. They go from, “floating” to looking like they belong.
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Not to the point that it prevents me from “playing” the “game”.You can’t see how proper lighting in a game like Metro or any number of other games could improve the experience?
I’ve noticed enemies in reflections in RTX games I would have otherwise not seen. Made for an awesome gameplay experience. And that’s just one tiny example.
Also.
Only difference in these screens is RT on VS Off.
Look at how much more grounded the objects and bike are in the scene. They go from, “floating” to looking like they belong.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
What goalpost? My initial response stands to the thread title, meaning no It. Is. Not. Worth. It. :
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BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
JimboJones
Member
Sorry, my “prevent” was not directed at you; but a post in this thread that said they won’t play a game without ray tracing. My point was it doesn’t affect my enjoyment. Games look good enough now, I’m not stressing about no image quality.
Edit: Yeah a poster said they wouldn’t play Spider-Man without it lol.
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alabtrosMyster
Banned
So far it has been optional on 30fps modes, having the option for those who want to have it is fine.
I'd like to see more 1080p + RT + 60fps modes if possible.
I'd like to see more 1080p + RT + 60fps modes if possible.
Silver Wattle
Gold Member
Not even worth it with a 3090, current gen cards just aren't good enough to make RT worth using.
Gamerguy84
Member
I personally like the performance/graphics mode that has been implemented in a lot of games recently, other than that IDC.
It's entertaining watching an illusionist do their thing but I don't need to know how they did it.
It's entertaining watching an illusionist do their thing but I don't need to know how they did it.
Tickle My Tendies
Member
A 3090 will average 70-90 FPS at native 1440p/Ultra/Max RT in any game you throw at it right now. Unless you're talking strictly native 4k, then you're wrong.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
I think it totally depends on the artistic vision of the game and isn’t a clear cut answer.
see: Spider-Man vs Demons Souls
see: Spider-Man vs Demons Souls
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Nope. you can get photorealistic visuals without ray tracing.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Global Illumination or Indirect diffuse lighting are game changing features in openworld or dynamic TOD games.
For closed non dynamic easily directable games alittle less so.
Reflections are probably the least important feature of raytracing.
For closed non dynamic easily directable games alittle less so.
Reflections are probably the least important feature of raytracing.
Shmunter
Member
No I don’t think so. I think it will stifle gfx in other areas. With RT you basically corner yourself into simpler last gen gfx, just with RT on top. No other way to balance it.
Worse yet, all the Nvidia and DF self flagellation on RT means devs are almost obliged to shoehorn it in as a checklist item or be deemed lazy etc.
Worse yet, all the Nvidia and DF self flagellation on RT means devs are almost obliged to shoehorn it in as a checklist item or be deemed lazy etc.
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Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Nope. you can get photorealistic visuals without ray tracing.
Funny cuz that scene looks alot better with Raytracing.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
This... isn’t true.
Shmunter
Member
No truer a word have I spoken
sunnysideup
Banned
Ray tracing is a cost saving method for the developer, since it demands less man hours than hand baked lighting.. The benefits for the gamer is slim. It looks better but is way to demanding for modern hardware.
Baked lighting can look great. But is much much more expensive for the developer.
Baked lighting can look great. But is much much more expensive for the developer.
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