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[Alebrije]

Give me 60fps or give me death!

You are welcome

 

[Gamerguy84]

Ray tracing is the plague of this generation. Current hardware can't handle it properly and to its fullest. But Nvidias marketing will make it as something indispensable

Yep. I'm all for advancement but there are already quite a group of people who label anything without RT as practically unplayable.

RT looks great but it's impact doesn't hit like that. Just my own opinion of course.

Now DLSS or other upscale techniques are quite useful.

 

[GametimeUK]

I have a friend who played Miles Morales in both graphics and performance modes and ended up choosing graphics (RT) at 30fps over 60fps. The only difference he could see between the modes was the visuals. He didn't think the gameplay was any smoother at 60fps. I find it absolutely crazy that this is the case, but cool for him.

He also believes Skyrim on PS3 had no performance issues and ran smooth for him just to give you an idea of what his tolerance levels are haha.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Its highly subjective ofcourse. But given that we see RT Reflections far more often than GI, i say the truth is in the middle.

It's all related to the number of rays / ray intersections that need to be calculated. Cerny claims the number of rays for GI is lower than for reflections, which should be true.
Of course, AFAIK very few games are doing full-resolution ray-traced reflections, and that's perhaps why that particular implementation is cheaper than ray-traced GI.

isn't demon souls an example of that ?

AFAIK Demon's Souls doesn't use Ray Tracing in any shape or form. They do have some form of compute-based Global Illumination, but it's not RT-based.

 

[Kamina]

Raytracing is nice and all, but i have yet to see an implementation that i would consider game-changing enough to sacrifice large resolution differences or frame-rate for.

 

[Salmon Snake]

RE Village looks amazing AND it runs 60fps. I still haven't bought Spider-Man MM which I has great options to choose.

So if the game can handle them both the better. But it would have to be pretty drastical difference for me to ditch the 60fps in favor for choosing RT.
But I wish Sony would make PS5 Pro that could handle both.

 

[martino]

It's all related to the number of rays / ray intersections that need to be calculated. Cerny claims the number of rays for GI is lower than for reflections, which should be true.
Of course, AFAIK very few games are doing full-resolution ray-traced reflections, and that's perhaps why that particular implementation is cheaper than ray-traced GI.


AFAIK Demon's Souls doesn't use Ray Tracing in any shape or form. They do have some form of compute-based Global Illumination, but it's not RT-based.

yeah i wasn't sure and memory failed me

 

[Redneckerz]

It's all related to the number of rays / ray intersections that need to be calculated. Cerny claims the number of rays for GI is lower than for reflections, which should be true.
Of course, AFAIK very few games are doing full-resolution ray-traced reflections, and that's perhaps why that particular implementation is cheaper than ray-traced GI.


AFAIK Demon's Souls doesn't use Ray Tracing in any shape or form. They do have some form of compute-based Global Illumination, but it's not RT-based.

That will very be the case. I could use a proper tech level thread on RT somewhere down the line

 

[godhandiscen]

It is not worth it yet. Probably good for the next gen consoles.

 

[TonyK]

I have a friend who played Miles Morales in both graphics and performance modes and ended up choosing graphics (RT) at 30fps over 60fps. The only difference he could see between the modes was the visuals. He didn't think the gameplay was any smoother at 60fps. I find it absolutely crazy that this is the case, but cool for him.

He also believes Skyrim on PS3 had no performance issues and ran smooth for him just to give you an idea of what his tolerance levels are haha.

I have a friend, and I swear this is totally true, he is concept artist as me and works in the industry, that has played Cyberpunk in a base Xbox One and for him the game ran perfectly fine and internet opinion is over exaggerating. Also, I have another friend, 3D artist, also works in the industry, and he plays on PC. He plays at whatever framerate the game outputs, 43, 52, whatever, and he doesn't notice stuttering, framepacing or even tearing.

I envy these type of people. I notice any lost frame or if a bush in the desert of Red Dead Redemption has bad LOD.

 

[MR ARCADE FOREVER]

I have a friend who played Miles Morales in both graphics and performance modes and ended up choosing graphics (RT) at 30fps over 60fps. The only difference he could see between the modes was the visuals. He didn't think the gameplay was any smoother at 60fps. I find it absolutely crazy that this is the case, but cool for him.

He also believes Skyrim on PS3 had no performance issues and ran smooth for him just to give you an idea of what his tolerance levels are haha.

People like him have been playing at 30 for so long that they can not see the differences between 30 and 60. It happened to me after playing on consoles for a long time. Once it clicks he will realize fps >>>>resolution always.

 

[sackings]

If the cost is 60 fps, no. If you can have both, sure why not

 

[Umbral]

Framerate > Ray Tracing

Example: Control Ultimate Edition on PS5. If you want to sandblast your eyes and induce nausea, turn on Graphics mode.

 

[Alebrije]

People like him have been playing at 30 for so long that they can not see the differences between 30 and 60. It happened to me after playing on consoles for a long time. Once it clicks he will realize fps >>>>resolution always.

This happened to me...when first 60 fps games on consoles came...did not see difference even on PS4 games was hard to see it for me..just after I got an Xbox one X and recently a PS5 y can clearly see and feel the difference and after 60 fps returning to 30 is hard..

Basically when you feel 60 fps firts time is like :

So if RT means no 60fps is not a must.

 

[iHaunter]

I'd rather have 60 FPS over RT. Unless it's a game like Spider-Man that benefits more from RT.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

When RT is combined with things like DLSS yes, in native res I'd have to say no.

 

[GametimeUK]

I have a friend, and I swear this is totally true, he is concept artist as me and works in the industry, that has played Cyberpunk in a base Xbox One and for him the game ran perfectly fine and internet opinion is over exaggerating. Also, I have another friend, 3D artist, also works in the industry, and he plays on PC. He plays at whatever framerate the game outputs, 43, 52, whatever, and he doesn't notice stuttering, framepacing or even tearing.

I envy these type of people. I notice any lost frame or if a bush in the desert of Red Dead Redemption has bad LOD.

Ignorance is a bliss for sure.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Assuming the visuals are still decent, Ill take 60fps over overglossed and overly wet RT 30 fps. I don't need to play a game like Control where every floor tile and square inch of wallpaper is a mirror.

Maybe a low paced SP Elder Scrolls 6 maybe I'll do RT, but most games I like it fast and smooth.

 

[BigTnaples]

Assuming the visuals are still decent, Ill take 60fps over overglossed and overly wet RT 30 fps. I don't need to play a game like Control where every floor tile and square inch of wallpaper is a mirror.

Maybe a low paced SP Elder Scrolls 6 maybe I'll do RT, but most games I like it fast and smooth.

Control isn’t like that. It handles roughness very well. And many of the RT effects are subtle, even subliminal in the way they make the game world feel real. Nothing feels excessive.

 

[MR ARCADE FOREVER]

Assuming the visuals are still decent, Ill take 60fps over overglossed and overly wet RT 30 fps. I don't need to play a game like Control where every floor tile and square inch of wallpaper is a mirror.

Maybe a low paced SP Elder Scrolls 6 maybe I'll do RT, but most games I like it fast and smooth.

I aprove this message

 

[Redlight]

Ray tracing is great and a big step forward. Lighting in general is an area that offers vast improvements in graphics.

I'd take solid 30fps with RT over just 60fps any day of the week.

I bought Watch Dogs at launch but parked it until the ray tracing update was available. It's not just 'reflections', it's realism and immersion.

 

[MR ARCADE FOREVER]

Ray tracing is great and a big step forward. Lighting in general is an area that offers vast improvements in graphics.

I'd take solid 30fps with RT over just 60fps any day of the week.

I bought Watch Dogs at launch but parked it until the ray tracing update was available. It's not just 'reflections', it's realism and immersion.

Good luck being immersed in slow motion

 

[Excess]

I have always felt that if given the choice on console between fidelity and FPS, developers choose fidelity, with exception of a first-person shooter. Rockstar games are the best example of this.

Whereas, with PC, this is entirely up to whether or not there's headroom, notwithstanding DLSS. It's still nice to have a choice of what settings you want to play with on PC, but now consoles are starting to have the same. Although, I will say that Jedi Fallen Order's Performance mode was still pretty abysmal when I played it at 60 FPS back on XB1X.

 

[RGB'D]

Without DLSS (consoles)... probably not honestly. But with DLSS on PC, RT is incredible and adds a ton to immersion while playing.

 

[Three]

Nope. you can get photorealistic visuals without ray tracing.

You can get photo realistic visuals without RT but dynamic photo realistic visuals are hard without it.

 

[SlimySnake]

You can get photo realistic visuals without RT but dynamic photo realistic visuals are hard without it.

I dont know about that. UE5 demo is using dynamic GI without RT.

Even this Unreal Engine 4 rebirth demo had fully dynamic lighting in realtime running at 60 fps on a 1080ti at 1440p. They demoed it.

 

[dyergram]

Genuinely don’t think I can play 30fps now I tried to go back to red dead found it unplayable and the same with control in quality mode. Mm was fine in rt performance mode though I’d much rather have 60fps if it’s an option.

 

[saintjules]

I figure it was a learning process kind of thing. If more Developers do it the way Insomniac did with both Spider-Man games for example, then I'll take that. What was it, 1440p/60fps with RT. But then remove some objects and NPCs from the gameplay as the trade-off?

 

[Black_Stride]

I dont know about that. UE5 demo is using dynamic GI without RT.

Even this Unreal Engine 4 rebirth demo had fully dynamic lighting in realtime running at 60 fps on a 1080ti at 1440p. They demoed it.

I love how people are always saying yeah it can run on a single 1080Ti.
Almost as if the 1080Ti isnt an RTX2080/RTX3060Ti class GPU.

Further as has been stated GI has its uses you could author a scene that doesnt suffer from not having a bunch of bounce lighting, or use cheaper GI techniques to get good results. Reflections with a dynamic camera, you are gonna be hardpressed to find a solution to that right now.
And with limited RAM RT shadows are likely the best bet for really good lighting/shadows.

Weve seen them demo this exact scene using RTGI instead of UE Bounce Lighting and its only when you are shown the errors do you realize they are errors.

Its kinda like how we survived so long without high level AO and things were fine, but once youve played a bunch of games with AO you realize how bad we had it.

The same could be said for Raytracing.
Yes we do have and will keep developing techniques that replicate the effects and maybe even get really really close.

For instance SSRT is still raytracing, SSRTGI is alot cheaper than fullblown RT on CU so maybe we get more of that.
But using some sort of Raytracing or Voxel based GI is something games need to move towards ASAP.
IF the other techniques are cheaper and produce similar results, im all for that, if RT is the best bet then jump on that instead.

Look how fast Redshift has gotten using Raytracing, so i fully expect game engines to also start figuring out better ways to use RT in a performant manner.
But fighting against Raytracing is a mistake.

This is done using a Screen Space Raytracing technique and it looks legit.

 

[Excess]

I dont know about that. UE5 demo is using dynamic GI without RT.

Even this Unreal Engine 4 rebirth demo had fully dynamic lighting in realtime running at 60 fps on a 1080ti at 1440p. They demoed it.

From what I understand, ray-tracing allows developers to hit those peak levels of fidelity in real-time with about half of the development resources needed to do it using other workarounds. In that video, he mentions that all of the assets are pre-rendered and available to you as a developer, which presumably means that they've cut out the development resources needed by providing you with the assets upfront.

I imagine that future game development, at least for the next 10 years, will have some mix of this. I don't see how this is possible for reflections, though. Maybe someone smarter than me can address that.

 

[namekuseijin]

no

VR is

 

[SlimySnake]

From what I understand, ray-tracing allows developers to hit those peak levels of fidelity in real-time with about half of the development resources needed to do it using other workarounds. In that video, he mentions that all of the assets are pre-rendered and available to you as a developer, which presumably means that they've cut out the development resources needed by providing you with the assets upfront.

I imagine that future game development, at least for the next 10 years, will have some mix of this. I don't see how this is possible for reflections, though. Maybe someone smarter than me can address that.

Look at the video I posted above. They can change all the lighting parameters or other settings in realtime now. You really dont need realtime ray tracing for that. If anything, the megascans library being offered here saves them from creating their own assets. Everything can be done in realtime here saving dev time. reflections will be the only extra expense.

This is being done on a 1.84 tflops GCN 1.0 gpu in a realtime cutscene. RDNA 2.0 GPUs are roughly 1.5x in power and just imagine what ND can make cutscenes look like on a 10 tflops rdna 2.0 gpu with 15 tflops of gcn 1.0 power.

I love how people are always saying yeah it can run on a single 1080Ti.
Almost as if the 1080Ti isnt an RTX2080/RTX3060Ti class GPU.

But using some sort of Raytracing or Voxel based GI is something games need to move towards ASAP.
IF the other techniques are cheaper and produce similar results, im all for that, if RT is the best bet then jump on that instead.

I dont think anyone is questioning that you cant get better results with RT. The point I am making is that you can get photorealistic visuals without it and from what I can tell from bits of your post is that you agree so we might be talking past each other here a bit.

The 1080Ti bit is important because in terms of standard rasterization, both consoles are roughly on par with it and the rtx 2080. Both the 2080 and 1080ti are roughly 11.5 tflops at peak clocks and rdna gpus have finally begun to match Nvidia's perf/clock performance. However, when it comes to ray tracing, the PS5 is much much worse than the 2080 and on par with the 2060 instead. Roughly a 35-50% downgrade in RT games. In Control, 2080 offers 64 fps at medium settings, rtx 2060 offers 42 fps. thats a 50% difference.

Do I really want consoles to offer 2060 levels of performance just for RT? heck no. Especially when they can come really close to photorealistic visuals by using standard rasterization power of these console GPUs which in some cases, offer better performance than the nvidia cards like the 2080 and 1080ti.

The Metro guys said that their next game will be all RT. So i guess you will get your wish, but we will see if they stack up against non RT games. I suspect they wont. As good as Metro looks on my rtx 2080, I thought RDR2 looked better. TLOU2 looked better. Heck in most cases, I couldnt even tell the difference between RT GI on vs off unless I was in shadows. Out in the open world in the snowy level, GI made very little difference. Like RT reflections, the whoa or a ha moments were few and far between. Like when I was inside a moving train and the the light coming in through the windows looked far more organic properly casting shadows and illuminating only what it should. But I really believe that standard rasterization techniques will only improve in next gen engines that using dynamic GI without ray tracing.

However, the biggest thing to look for in all RT games will be the resolution. 1080p 30 fps is likely on the cards here where as UE5 seems to be able to do 1440p 30 fps rather easily and they said their new optimizations allow them to hit 60 fps.

 

[Redlight]

Good luck being immersed in slow motion

You do realise that things happen on screen at the same speed, regardless of the frame rate?
Well, of course you do, so I'll put your comment down in the 'ridiculous hyperbole' column.

 

[Edgelord79]

A 3090 will average 70-90 FPS at native 1440p/Ultra/Max RT in any game you throw at it right now. Unless you're talking strictly native 4k, then you're wrong.

I can confirm this with almost all of the titles I've played, with the exception of Cyberpunk.