Jibran#one
Member
Absolutely no
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Is Ray Tracing worth the performance hit for console gamers?
- Thread starter FMX
- Start date
King_Mandu
Banned
Ray Tracing + DLSS > native 4K
Yeah, I'm always left feeling that RT (or 4k, for that matter) advocates just don't get the reality of trade offs.
It's not enough to say that RT looks better than non RT, or that 4k looks sharper than 1440p. That should be a given.
The point is, at what cost?
By FAR the best next gen graphics we've seen so far are the Unreal 5 demo's. Not native 4k, and no RT. Although, admittedly, running at 30fps.
Ok, it was a demo, on amazing new tech, and probably unachievable on a full scale game, but it still looked a generation better than even Cyberpunk maxed out. That's not irrelevant.
1440p at 60 looks like the correct formula for this gen. Seems like we can have that plus a big leap in overall fidelity if Ratchet & Clank is any evidence.
The difference between that and PS4 Ratchet is imo WAAAY bigger than something like Control with and without RT.
GymWolf
Member
It's a matter of priority.
Not everyone cares about lights/shadows and reflections.
I take better textures, geometry, animations and physics over pixar level rtx every day of the week.
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llien
Member
Bullshit.
It has everything, from reflections on the water, to walls very realistically reflecting weapons.
Oh, and shades too.
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KungFucius
King Snowflake
I have only seen it in Spider-Man with reflections, but yes it is definitely worth it there. Games with it look better on PC too. I prefer better looking to not better looking and will take that unless the game really struggles. So it will go on to start and only come off if the game noticeably stutters.
Cockles & Whelks
Banned
I clicked between pre-bakes / RT on Control. No. Give it a wide berth this console generation.
Each to their own I guess but I find it so odd that people prefer RT to 60fps in MM. Whenever I try the fidelity mode the game looks like a fucking slideshow. And I know that's a solid 30fps, but still.
Maybe I'm just particularly sensitive to frame rates or something. But for me the difference is stark - double the frames is practically a generational difference. The RT is a nice bonus at best.
Different strokes I guess.
Maybe I'm just particularly sensitive to frame rates or something. But for me the difference is stark - double the frames is practically a generational difference. The RT is a nice bonus at best.
Different strokes I guess.
MadchesterManc
Member
Why wouldn't it be? As long as a 60fps non-RT mode is offered alongside it then it's a non issue
Strider311
Member
Juice not worth the squeeze, at all. (IMO)
ToTTenTranz
Banned
Raytracing isn't a single on/off switch thing like most marketing materials tend to show, so I don't think this is a yes/no answer.
I've seen some effects that look really great and make a big difference in immersion (like e.g. window reflections in Spiderman), while others just feel like they're a bit worthless and are needlessly driving down performance (which is a lot in modern hardware)..
Take for example this screenshot I took from DF's video about RT in Cyberpunk. If you're playing the game, exactly how many people are going to care about or even notice that metal molding showing perfect reflections instead of a cubemap?
Especially when the immersion is already off due to the NPCs looking so bland and their gait movement being completely inorganic and erratic.
How many rendering milliseconds are these ray traced reflections taking in a (IMHO) rather irrelevant place, when compared to cubemaps and/or screen space reflections?
I think real-time raytracing is great and it's definitely a big part of The Future™, but with current hardware there needs to be a much better study of the ROI in compute resources than we're seeing in e.g. Cyberpunk with all RT sliders set to max.
Given the current "common denominator" hardware (which has been established by the 9th gens, so ~10-12TFLOPs with RDNA2 RT acceleration), I think the good developers who really want to make great looking games will need to think hard about where ray tracing makes sense and where it doesn't, how much perceived eye candy can it get over the more "traditional" rasterization methods which take significantly less GPU and CPU time.
- Do we really need ray traced reflections on all puddles in the floor? Perhaps screen space reflections are good enough.
- Do we really need ray traced Global Illumination everywhere, considering the gorgeous UE5 is using voxel-based Global Illumination with stunning results, as well as Demon's Souls non-RT GI?
- Ray Traced Ambient Occlusion does look better than SSAO, but does it make sense to use it everywhere?
Lastly, when I look at the most gorgeous real-time rendering I've ever seen - the Unreal Engine 5 Demo - it seems to me that the revolution on the short-mid term will be centered on very high polygon counts allowed by very fast I/O data streams and granular control of geometry LODs to avoid getting sub-pixel triangles.
And to a lesser scale, the fact that Demon's Souls is subjectively the best looking console game around despite the team not getting enough resources to implement RT is also a bit telling.
I've seen some effects that look really great and make a big difference in immersion (like e.g. window reflections in Spiderman), while others just feel like they're a bit worthless and are needlessly driving down performance (which is a lot in modern hardware)..
Take for example this screenshot I took from DF's video about RT in Cyberpunk. If you're playing the game, exactly how many people are going to care about or even notice that metal molding showing perfect reflections instead of a cubemap?
Especially when the immersion is already off due to the NPCs looking so bland and their gait movement being completely inorganic and erratic.
How many rendering milliseconds are these ray traced reflections taking in a (IMHO) rather irrelevant place, when compared to cubemaps and/or screen space reflections?
I think real-time raytracing is great and it's definitely a big part of The Future™, but with current hardware there needs to be a much better study of the ROI in compute resources than we're seeing in e.g. Cyberpunk with all RT sliders set to max.
Given the current "common denominator" hardware (which has been established by the 9th gens, so ~10-12TFLOPs with RDNA2 RT acceleration), I think the good developers who really want to make great looking games will need to think hard about where ray tracing makes sense and where it doesn't, how much perceived eye candy can it get over the more "traditional" rasterization methods which take significantly less GPU and CPU time.
- Do we really need ray traced reflections on all puddles in the floor? Perhaps screen space reflections are good enough.
- Do we really need ray traced Global Illumination everywhere, considering the gorgeous UE5 is using voxel-based Global Illumination with stunning results, as well as Demon's Souls non-RT GI?
- Ray Traced Ambient Occlusion does look better than SSAO, but does it make sense to use it everywhere?
Lastly, when I look at the most gorgeous real-time rendering I've ever seen - the Unreal Engine 5 Demo - it seems to me that the revolution on the short-mid term will be centered on very high polygon counts allowed by very fast I/O data streams and granular control of geometry LODs to avoid getting sub-pixel triangles.
And to a lesser scale, the fact that Demon's Souls is subjectively the best looking console game around despite the team not getting enough resources to implement RT is also a bit telling.
Raytracing isn't a single on/off switch thing like most marketing materials tend to show, so I don't think this is a yes/no answer.
I've seen some effects that look really great and make a big difference in immersion (like e.g. window reflections in Spiderman), while others just feel like they're a bit worthless and are needlessly driving down performance (which is a lot in modern hardware)..
Take for example this screenshot I took from DF's video about RT in Cyberpunk. If you're playing the game, exactly how many people are going to care about or even notice that metal molding showing perfect reflections instead of a cubemap?
Especially when the immersion is already off due to the NPCs looking so bland and their gait movement being completely inorganic and erratic.
How many rendering milliseconds are these ray traced reflections taking in a (IMHO) rather irrelevant place, when compared to cubemaps and/or screen space reflections?
I think real-time raytracing is great and it's definitely a big part of The Future™, but with current hardware there needs to be a much better study of the ROI in compute resources than we're seeing in e.g. Cyberpunk with all RT sliders set to max.
Given the current "common denominator" hardware (which has been established by the 9th gens, so ~10-12TFLOPs with RDNA2 RT acceleration), I think the good developers who really want to make great looking games will need to think hard about where ray tracing makes sense and where it doesn't, how much perceived eye candy can it get over the more "traditional" rasterization methods which take significantly less GPU and CPU time.
- Do we really need ray traced reflections on all puddles in the floor? Perhaps screen space reflections are good enough.
- Do we really need ray traced Global Illumination everywhere, considering the gorgeous UE5 is using voxel-based Global Illumination with stunning results, as well as Demon's Souls non-RT GI?
- Ray Traced Ambient Occlusion does look better than SSAO, but does it make sense to use it everywhere?
Lastly, when I look at the most gorgeous real-time rendering I've ever seen - the Unreal Engine 5 Demo - it seems to me that the revolution on the short-mid term will be centered on very high polygon counts allowed by very fast I/O data streams and granular control of geometry LODs to avoid getting sub-pixel triangles.
And to a lesser scale, the fact that Demon's Souls is subjectively the best looking console game around despite the team not getting enough resources to implement RT is also a bit telling.
I just think, as Gymwolf said above, there's way too much relatively cheap improvement left in traditional rendering to be concerned about more accurate reflections etc. Not to mention that 60fps still needs to become the standard, and that's demanding in itself.
Ratchet does have RT, but it really has very little to do with the overall gains in fidelity. Horizon 2 is the same, from the little we've seen. Concentrate on getting games looking close to photorealistic in other respects, which should be more or less achievable this gen, and then refine that with RT next generation.
llien
Member
More accurate reflections. (I'm being generous)
AnotherOne
Member
I lose 30 fps just so I can see myself on glass? No thx.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
thats precisely the point. You dont need reflections in most places. Where would you find reflections in a game set in a forest? RDR2, Horizon, every AC game this gen, Borderlands, CoD. Hell, the very first ray traced game ever was BFV and its ray tracing was limited to one level and one building in that level. You got some reflections in windows, and on the floor of that one hotel. I played every other map and saw no ray tracing. it made no sense to get half the performance for virtually no results in those maps.
Trogdor1123
Member
Rt is pretty good but I'd take 60fps over it every time
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Yes, it looks a little bit better in that example, but look at how fast they have to run that simulation to show us the differences. Are you really expecting time of day to burn through the day in ten seconds? How games would do that? And why would they do it?
If I am playing an open world game like RDR2, why would I need such fast realtime time of day switching? It will be valuable for some games in the horror genre where you feel like you're on an acid trip, but I really dont see the need to waste half of the GPU on something like this. Same goes for reflections as I said in the post above. How many games you've played this gen that MUST need reflections? It made sense in Control and Spiderman Miles, but horizon, rdr2, the last of us, ghost of tsushima? I would not have them waste 50% of the gpu trying to render reflections in levels that arent even there. I talked about BFV above. they have one map with reflections. One. Whats the point of having ray tracing enabled in other maps set on japanese islands and norway's icy mountains?
Hell, Control is 50% set in warehouses and backrooms with no reflective surfaces. On PCs, you get indirect lighting and contact shadows in those areas but the consoles dont even get that. Surely, the extra power shouldve gone making those areas look better.
Besides, you dont need RT for realtime GI. Demon Souls is doing Realtime GI. UE5's demo is doing Realtime GI. UE4's first demo was doing realtime GI. Hell Fable before it was cancelled was doing realtime GI.
Great Hair
Banned
Allnamestakenlol
Member
Depends on the game/developer, I imagine. Definitely not something that should be used if it's merely a box that needs checked and it results in other areas suffering significantly or causes performance problems.
worldwithpyramids
Member
No, especially since it seems to be ray-tracing or 60fps. Spider-Man looks infinitely better at 60fps compared to ray tracing on windows that you’d have to stop and look at occasionally to get anything out of.
Shai-Tan
Banned
their graphic design is similar to valve or uncharted devs. visual clarity over post processing, baked/static over dynamic. I tend to prefer the former over the latter because the image is sharper and games that use some types of dynamic lighting/shadows/etc (not even just rt, see red dead 2 for example) tend to have a very noisy image. I think metro exodus does look Impressive but there is a sacrifice being made to get it. I can see how texture detail is reduced on ground when turning rt on and off in some scenes in metro despite it significantly improving the image overall
also isn’t open world vs linear because I prefer the look of gta v to red dead 2 because of how much sharper the image looks (particularly in distance) despite more primitive lighting/shadows/ao/etc
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hroerekr
Member
As much as I like the option of using low resolution to deliver both RT and 60fps, that's a PS4 game.
We don't know how things will go when true next gen games arrive.
I just hope they keep investing in giving options and we can choose in a game-by-game basis.
MAX PAYMENT
Member
The reflections in spiderman are great. It gets good utilization in control as well.
kyliethicc
Member
sometimes sure. depends on the game, the implementation and the performance.
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Reflections are relatively easy to implement, but RT GI is where it really hits. The stuff seen Metro Exodus is transformative.
So yes, it can visually be totally worth it. It just takes more effort than reflections.
So yes, it can visually be totally worth it. It just takes more effort than reflections.
ToTTenTranz
Banned
I'm not sure what you mean with effort but according to Cerny, RT Global Illumination is cheaper to do on the PS5's RDNA2 than reflections or shadows:
Sure, if your game doesn't have any wet or polished surfaces, doesn't have metal objects, and doesn't feature windows or any form of glass.
martino
Member
isn't demon souls an example of that ?I'm not sure what you mean with effort but according to Cerny, RT Global Illumination is cheaper to do on the PS5's RDNA2 than reflections or shadows:
MR ARCADE FOREVER
Member
Ray tracing is the plague of this generation. Current hardware can't handle it properly and to its fullest. But Nvidias marketing will make it as something indispensable
thesplitsubject
Member
Give me 60fps or give me death!
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Its highly subjective ofcourse. But given that we see RT Reflections far more often than GI, i say the truth is in the middle.I'm not sure what you mean with effort but according to Cerny, RT Global Illumination is cheaper to do on the PS5's RDNA2 than reflections or shadows:
